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Mafia Theory Discussion - WIFOM

drafterman
Posts: 18,870
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2/2/2012 11:08:30 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
WIFOM. It is a term that is often thrown about. Many don't even know what it stands for. Few know what the concepts means. Hopefully more at least get the reference.

WIFOM stands for "Wine In Front Of Me" and references a scene from the movie "A Princess Bride"

----
Dread Pirate Roberts: I challenge you to a battle of wits.

Vizzini: For the princess? To the death? I accept.

DPR: Good. Then pour the wine.

(Roberts pulls out a small vial, and uncorks it)

DPR: Inhale this, but do not touch.

Vizzini: I smell nothing.

DPR: What you do not smell is called Iocane powder. It is odorless, tasteless, dissolves instantly in liquid, and is among the more deadly poisons known to man.

Vizzini: Hmmmm.

(Reports turns away from Vizzini with the goblets, and pours the poison in. Goblets replaced on the table, one in front of each.)

DPR: All right. Where is the poison? The battle of wits has begun. It ends when you decide and we both drink, and find out who is right...and who is dead.

Vizzini: But it's so simple. All I have to do is divine from what I know of you: are you the sort of man who would put the poison into his own goblet or his enemy's? Now, a clever man would put the poison into his own goblet, because he would know that only a great fool would reach for what he was given. I am not a great fool, so I can clearly not choose the wine in front of you. But you must have known I was not a great fool, you would have counted on it, so I can clearly not choose the wine in front of me.

DPR: You've made your decision then?

Vizzini: Not remotely. Because iocane comes from Australia, as everyone knows, and Australia is entirely peopled with criminals, and criminals are used to having people not trust them, as you are not trusted by me, so I can clearly not choose the wine in front of you.

DPR: Truly, you have a dizzying intellect.

Vizzini: WAIT TILL I GET GOING! Where was I?

DPR: Australia.

Vizzini: Yes, Australia. And you must have suspected I would have known the powder's origin, so I can clearly not choose the wine in front of me.

DPR: You're just stalling now.

Vizzini: You'd like to think that, wouldn't you? You've beaten my giant, which means you're exceptionally strong, so you could've put the poison in your own goblet, trusting on your strength to save you, so I can clearly not choose the wine in front of you. But, you've also bested my Spaniard, which means you must have studied, and in studying you must have learned that man is mortal, so you would have put the poison as far from yourself as possible, so I can clearly not choose the wine in front of me.

DPR: You're trying to trick me into giving away something. It won't work.

Vizzini: IT HAS WORKED! YOU'VE GIVEN EVERYTHING AWAY! I KNOW WHERE THE POISON IS!

DPR: Then make your choice.

Vizzini: I will, and I choose - What in the world can that be?

(Vizzini gestures up and away from the table. Roberts looks. Vizzini switches the glasses.)

DPR: What? Where? I don't see anything.

Vizzini: Well, I- I could have sworn I saw something. No matter.

(Vizzini smirks)

DPR: What's so funny?

Vizzini: I'll tell you in a minute. First, let's drink. Me from my glass, and you from yours.

(They drink)

DPR: You guessed wrong.

Vizzini: You only think I guessed wrong! That's what's so funny! I switched glasses when your back was turned! Ha ha! You fool! You fell victim to one of the classic blunders! The most famous is never get involved in a land war in Asia, but only slightly less well-known is this: never go in against a Sicilian when death is on the line!! Ha ha ha ha ha ha ha!! Ha ha ha ha ha ha ha!! Ha ha ha--

(Vizzini stops suddenly, and falls dead to the right)
----

However, a more distilled version of this type of psychology can be found in Star Trek, from the TNG Episode, "Peak Performance"

----
DATA: I have several examples of Commander Riker's battle technique. At the Academy, he calculated a sensory blind spoton a Tholian vessel and hid within it during a battle simulation. And as a lieutenant aboard the Potemkin, his solution to a crisis was to shut down all power, and hang over a planet's magnetic pole, thus confusing his opponent's sensors.

TROI: And from these specifics, what general conclusion can youextrapolate?

DATA: Only twenty-one percent of the time does he rely upon traditional tactics. So the captain must be prepared for extreme cunning.

(pause)

DATA: Counselor, Commander Riker will assume that we have made this analysis, and knowing that we know his methods, he will alter them.

(pause)

DATA: But knowing that we know that he knows that we know he might choose to return to his usual pattern.
----

From this we can generalized WIFOM: one or more methods of reasoning that, by themselves, or combined, lead to a conclusion which, when factored back into the original set of reasonins, leads to a different conclusion.

In short, it is an infinite feedback loop.

How does this apply to mafia?

Here is mafiascum's take on WIFOM:
http://mafiascum.net...

And EpicMafia's:
http://wiki.epicmafia.com...

Both contain examples.

WIFOM works on both sides though probably more generally helps mafia as it helps hide their true intentions. However, some town roles, like Doctor, or PGO, can also employ WIFOM against the mafia.

More often than a deliberate gambit employing WIFOM, is the fact that people will often WIFOM themselves, especially with regards to meta-gaming (another discussion in and of itself).

As WIFOM can lead to infinite regression, discussion about can reach infinity in length. Suffice it to say, be wary of any such reasoning that even remotely resembles: "But if I was mafia, I would act differently."

How to combat WIFOM? Well, the Trek example offers a suggestion:

----
TROI: You're over-analyzing. Human nature cannot be denied. What kind of man is Commander Riker?

DATA: He is a fighter.

TROI: Yes.

DATA: The weaker his position, the more aggressive will be his posture.

TROI: And he won't give up.

DATA: Then despite whatever logical choices he is offered, he must be -

TROI: - The man that he is. Yes.

DATA: Is that a failing in humans?

TROI: You'll have to decide that for yourself.
----

That's not to say the other side won't have a few tricks up its sleaves...

----
Buttercup: And to think, all that time it was your cup that was poisoned.

Dread Pirate Roberts: They were both poisoned. I spent the last few years building up an immunity to iocane powder.
----

So beware when reasoning with WIFOM... both cups (conclusions) may lead to death.
Lickdafoot
Posts: 5,599
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2/2/2012 11:57:59 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
the thing about wifom is you have to be subtle about it. if you are being pressured and your only defense is "i wouldn't do this if i were mafia" of course you are going to sound guilty. wifom is better used to plant seeds and develop a certain perspective to portray. i'd give an example but i am not about to spill my secrets :P
WAKE UP AND READ THIS: http://www.debate.org...
drafterman
Posts: 18,870
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2/2/2012 12:01:25 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 2/2/2012 11:57:59 AM, Lickdafoot wrote:
the thing about wifom is you have to be subtle about it. if you are being pressured and your only defense is "i wouldn't do this if i were mafia" of course you are going to sound guilty. wifom is better used to plant seeds and develop a certain perspective to portray. i'd give an example but i am not about to spill my secrets :P

Subtly?

You mean "I AM NOW USING WIFOM ON YOU." is not a recommend strategy?
F-16_Fighting_Falcon
Posts: 18,324
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2/2/2012 12:10:29 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 2/2/2012 11:57:59 AM, Lickdafoot wrote:
the thing about wifom is you have to be subtle about it. if you are being pressured and your only defense is "i wouldn't do this if i were mafia" of course you are going to sound guilty. wifom is better used to plant seeds and develop a certain perspective to portray. i'd give an example but i am not about to spill my secrets :P

That comment so desperately makes me want to learn your secrets. I think you are definitely very subtle as mafia even more than the best players in the game like Danielle, BS, TV etc as they are a lot more aggressive. Anyways, I am going to start this list:

List of people who want to hear Lickdafoot's secret strategies:

1) F-16
2)
3)
4)
5)
6)
7)
8)
9)
10)

Fill this up people, and maybe she will relent.
Lickdafoot
Posts: 5,599
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2/2/2012 1:08:02 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
@ Drafter: that might actually work. it's so uprfront it would throw people of... you know.. "is he really now using wifom on me, or was he using wifom to say he was using wifom?" :p

@ f-16: make a list all you want, but this is a wifom thread, do you think i would give out my real secret or just make one up?
WAKE UP AND READ THIS: http://www.debate.org...
drafterman
Posts: 18,870
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2/2/2012 1:08:52 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 2/2/2012 1:08:02 PM, Lickdafoot wrote:
@ Drafter: that might actually work. it's so uprfront it would throw people of... you know.. "is he really now using wifom on me, or was he using wifom to say he was using wifom?" :p

OMG.

META-WIFOM

*head explodes*


@ f-16: make a list all you want, but this is a wifom thread, do you think i would give out my real secret or just make one up?
F-16_Fighting_Falcon
Posts: 18,324
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2/2/2012 1:13:55 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 2/2/2012 1:08:02 PM, Lickdafoot wrote:
@ Drafter: that might actually work. it's so uprfront it would throw people of... you know.. "is he really now using wifom on me, or was he using wifom to say he was using wifom?" :p

@ f-16: make a list all you want, but this is a wifom thread, do you think i would give out my real secret or just make one up?

Would it change if I say please?
F-16_Fighting_Falcon
Posts: 18,324
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2/2/2012 1:33:56 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 2/2/2012 1:30:49 PM, BlackVoid wrote:
Lol you dont need to learn her "secret". Just investigate her NP1.

LOL, I actually considered doing that in Death Note mafia but it would have made the game very boring. I think part of the fun in mafia is to use analytical skills to zone in to the mafia as opposed to investigating the best players and getting straightforward answers.
Lickdafoot
Posts: 5,599
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2/2/2012 1:41:52 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 2/2/2012 1:30:49 PM, BlackVoid wrote:
Lol you dont need to learn her "secret". Just investigate her NP1.

hey now. i am always the godfather. investigations dont work ;)
WAKE UP AND READ THIS: http://www.debate.org...
tvellalott
Posts: 10,864
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2/2/2012 5:15:39 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
WIFOM is my favourite part of mafia.
"Caitlyn Jenner is an incredibly brave and stunningly beautiful woman."

Muh threads
Using mafia tactics in real-life: http://www.debate.org...
6 years of DDO: http://www.debate.org...
tvellalott
Posts: 10,864
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2/2/2012 5:23:30 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 2/2/2012 5:20:53 PM, drafterman wrote:
At 2/2/2012 5:15:39 PM, tvellalott wrote:
WIFOM is my favourite part of mafia.

That's because you poison both glasses.

;)
"Caitlyn Jenner is an incredibly brave and stunningly beautiful woman."

Muh threads
Using mafia tactics in real-life: http://www.debate.org...
6 years of DDO: http://www.debate.org...
OberHerr
Posts: 13,062
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2/2/2012 5:53:58 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 2/2/2012 1:25:18 PM, royalpaladin wrote:
1) F-16
2) royalpaladin
3) OberHerr
4)
5)
6)
7)
8)
9)
10)
-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-OBERHERR'S SIGNATURE-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-

Official Enforcer for the DDO Elite(if they existed).

"Cases are anti-town." - FourTrouble

-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-
drafterman
Posts: 18,870
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2/2/2012 5:55:47 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 2/2/2012 5:53:58 PM, OberHerr wrote:
At 2/2/2012 1:25:18 PM, royalpaladin wrote:
1) F-16
2) royalpaladin
3) OberHerr
4)
5)
6)
7)
8)
9)
10)

Inb4 people think this list is a sign up for a mafia game.
OberHerr
Posts: 13,062
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2/2/2012 5:57:26 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 2/2/2012 5:55:47 PM, drafterman wrote:
At 2/2/2012 5:53:58 PM, OberHerr wrote:
At 2/2/2012 1:25:18 PM, royalpaladin wrote:
1) F-16
2) royalpaladin
3) OberHerr
4)
5)
6)
7)
8)
9)
10)



Inb4 people think this list is a sign up for a mafia game.

No, we want to know LDF's secret WIFOM strategy.
-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-OBERHERR'S SIGNATURE-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-

Official Enforcer for the DDO Elite(if they existed).

"Cases are anti-town." - FourTrouble

-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-
CAPLlock
Posts: 626
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2/3/2012 3:23:45 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 2/2/2012 5:57:26 PM, OberHerr wrote:
At 2/2/2012 5:55:47 PM, drafterman wrote:
At 2/2/2012 5:53:58 PM, OberHerr wrote:
At 2/2/2012 1:25:18 PM, royalpaladin wrote:
1) F-16
2) royalpaladin
3) OberHerr
4)
5)CAPS the broken keyborad
6)
7)
8)
9)
10)



Inb4 people think this list is a sign up for a mafia game.

No, we want to know LDF's secret WIFOM strategy.
F-16_Fighting_Falcon
Posts: 18,324
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2/3/2012 3:25:39 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
Update
1) F-16
2) royalpaladin
3) OberHerr
4)
5) CAPS the broken keyborad
6)
7)
8)
9)
10)

Inb4 people think this list is a sign up for a mafia game.

No, we want to know LDF's secret WIFOM strategy.