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Should the mafia always cc townies?

F-16_Fighting_Falcon
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2/5/2012 9:19:43 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
The prevailing concensus seems to be that one-for-one trades always benefit the town. However, we don't know this to be true. As per my analysis, it seems that one-for-one trades benefit both factions equally. This is because the number of mislynches that the mafia needs in order to win is often equal to the number of mafia themselves.

Take a 14 player game with 10 townies and 4 mafia.

DP1: No lynch (10 townies, 4 mafia left)
NP1: Mafia kill (9 townies, 4 mafia left)

DP2: Mislynch due to counterclaim (8 townies, 4 mafia left)
NP2: Mafia kill (7 townies, 4 mafia left)

DP3: Mafioso lynch (7 townies, 3 mafia left)
NP3: Mafia kill (6 townies, 3 mafia left)

DP3 Mislynch due to counterclaim (5 townies, 3 mafia left)
NP3: Mafia kill (4 townies, 3 mafia left)

DP4: Mafioso lynch (4 townies, 2 mafia left)
NP4: Mafia kill (3 townies, 2 mafia left)

DP5: Mislynch due to counterclaim (2 townies, 1 mafia left)
TOWN LOSES

Now, take the scenario where instead of no-lynching DP1, Mafia counterclaims the miller and get the regular miller lynched:
-------------------------------------------------------------------
DP1: Mislynch due to counterclaim (9 townies, 4 mafia left)
NP1: Mafia kill (8 townies, 4 mafia left)

DP2: Mafioso lynch (8 townies, 3 mafia left)
NP2: Mafia kill (7 townies, 3 mafia left)

DP3: Mislynch due to counterclaim (6 townies, 3 mafia left)
NP3: Mafia kill (5 townies, 3 mafia left)

DP4: Mafioso lynch (5 townies, 2 mafia left)
NP4: Mafia kill (4 townies, 2 mafia left)

DP5: Mislynch due to counterclaim (3 townies, 2 mafia left)
NP5: Mafia kill (2 townies, 2 mafia left)

TOWN LOSES
drafterman
Posts: 18,870
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2/5/2012 9:34:48 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
The number of mislynches needed.to win is equal to the difference between town and mafia. When mafia is 1/3rd of the town, this is indeed equal to the number of mafia and, as you imply, this number isn't changed by a one for one trade.

However. If all you have are one for one trades: town always wins. This is why it is said that one for one trades benefit town: it brings town closer to their goal, but not the mafia since the number of mislynhes or no lynches needed to win doesn't change.
F-16_Fighting_Falcon
Posts: 18,324
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2/5/2012 9:36:38 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 2/5/2012 9:34:48 AM, drafterman wrote:
The number of mislynches needed.to win is equal to the difference between town and mafia. When mafia is 1/3rd of the town, this is indeed equal to the number of mafia and, as you imply, this number isn't changed by a one for one trade.

However. If all you have are one for one trades: town always wins. This is why it is said that one for one trades benefit town: it brings town closer to their goal, but not the mafia since the number of mislynhes or no lynches needed to win doesn't change.

But through my analysis, above, it can be seen that town always loses if you have only one-for-one trades. Comments?
royalpaladin
Posts: 22,357
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2/5/2012 9:41:56 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 2/5/2012 9:19:43 AM, F-16_Fighting_Falcon wrote:
The prevailing concensus seems to be that one-for-one trades always benefit the town. However, we don't know this to be true. As per my analysis, it seems that one-for-one trades benefit both factions equally. This is because the number of mislynches that the mafia needs in order to win is often equal to the number of mafia themselves.

Take a 14 player game with 10 townies and 4 mafia.

DP1: No lynch (10 townies, 4 mafia left)
NP1: Mafia kill (9 townies, 4 mafia left)

DP2: Mislynch due to counterclaim (8 townies, 4 mafia left)
NP2: Mafia kill (7 townies, 4 mafia left)

DP3: Mafioso lynch (7 townies, 3 mafia left)
NP3: Mafia kill (6 townies, 3 mafia left)

DP3 Mislynch due to counterclaim (5 townies, 3 mafia left)
NP3: Mafia kill (4 townies, 3 mafia left)

DP4: Mafioso lynch (4 townies, 2 mafia left)
NP4: Mafia kill (3 townies, 2 mafia left)

DP5: Mislynch due to counterclaim (2 townies, 1 mafia left)
TOWN LOSES

Now, take the scenario where instead of no-lynching DP1, Mafia counterclaims the miller and get the regular miller lynched:
-------------------------------------------------------------------
DP1: Mislynch due to counterclaim (9 townies, 4 mafia left)
NP1: Mafia kill (8 townies, 4 mafia left)

DP2: Mafioso lynch (8 townies, 3 mafia left)
NP2: Mafia kill (7 townies, 3 mafia left)

DP3: Mislynch due to counterclaim (6 townies, 3 mafia left)
NP3: Mafia kill (5 townies, 3 mafia left)

DP4: Mafioso lynch (5 townies, 2 mafia left)
NP4: Mafia kill (4 townies, 2 mafia left)

DP5: Mislynch due to counterclaim (3 townies, 2 mafia left)
NP5: Mafia kill (2 townies, 2 mafia left)

TOWN LOSES

This assumes that the town decides to lynch the original player every single time. I doubt that will happen as consistently as you imply, especially because you are discussing a pattern that good players will recognize immediately.
drafterman
Posts: 18,870
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2/5/2012 9:51:17 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 2/5/2012 9:36:38 AM, F-16_Fighting_Falcon wrote:
At 2/5/2012 9:34:48 AM, drafterman wrote:
The number of mislynches needed.to win is equal to the difference between town and mafia. When mafia is 1/3rd of the town, this is indeed equal to the number of mafia and, as you imply, this number isn't changed by a one for one trade.

However. If all you have are one for one trades: town always wins. This is why it is said that one for one trades benefit town: it brings town closer to their goal, but not the mafia since the number of mislynhes or no lynches needed to win doesn't change.

But through my analysis, above, it can be seen that town always loses if you have only one-for-one trades. Comments?

I saw that. Will have to comment later. On my phone.
lovelife
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2/5/2012 10:29:33 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 2/5/2012 9:52:13 AM, royalpaladin wrote:
Deceptive playing is much better than this brute force tactic that you propose.

of course you would think so :p
(lol well it's true, but still)
Without Royal there is a hole inside of me, I have no choice but to leave
F-16_Fighting_Falcon
Posts: 18,324
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2/5/2012 11:13:47 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 2/5/2012 9:52:13 AM, royalpaladin wrote:
Deceptive playing is much better than this brute force tactic that you propose.

I am not endorsing the tactic. I am attempting to refute common knowledge that one-for-one trades benefit the town by presenting a counter-example.
royalpaladin
Posts: 22,357
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2/5/2012 11:21:25 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 2/5/2012 11:13:47 AM, F-16_Fighting_Falcon wrote:
At 2/5/2012 9:52:13 AM, royalpaladin wrote:
Deceptive playing is much better than this brute force tactic that you propose.

I am not endorsing the tactic. I am attempting to refute common knowledge that one-for-one trades benefit the town by presenting a counter-example.

But, as I noted, most discerning players would immediately realize that the counterclaimer is usually mafia and would thus lynch them first. There is an element of uncertainty that makes this an unviable tactic. In general, one-for-one trades do benefit the town.

Moreover, you are assuming that lynches will only be conducted on the basis of counterclaims. If someone was discovered to be a fake counterclaimer, for example, the vig could NK him and then the DP could be spent hunting scum. I think that the analysis that you have posted is a slight oversimplification of what would actually happen.
medic0506
Posts: 13,450
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2/5/2012 11:31:22 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
Mafia cc'ing will be ferreted out and begin backfiring if it becomes too commonplace. If they're careful about picking when they do it, though, it can be a useful tool. The one-for-one typically is seen as pro-town just because there are more townies than mafia but in some situations it can benefit the mafia in the long run. For instance, when you're able to out a pr then cc and get the real one mislynched. If you can get rid of the vig, cop, etc, it obviously helps mafia, but whether it's a good move depends on the strength of the remaining mafia and their ability to fool the town.
blackhawk1331
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2/5/2012 11:35:21 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 2/5/2012 11:31:22 AM, medic0506 wrote:
Mafia cc'ing will be ferreted out and begin backfiring if it becomes too commonplace. If they're careful about picking when they do it, though, it can be a useful tool. The one-for-one typically is seen as pro-town just because there are more townies than mafia but in some situations it can benefit the mafia in the long run. For instance, when you're able to out a pr then cc and get the real one mislynched. If you can get rid of the vig, cop, etc, it obviously helps mafia, but whether it's a good move depends on the strength of the remaining mafia and their ability to fool the town.

For example, it would be stupid for BS to cc is he were Godfather. He'll never get found out.
Because you said it was a waste, numb nuts. - Drafter

So fvck you. :) - TV

Use prima facie correctly or not at all. - Noumena
BlackVoid
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2/5/2012 1:47:24 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
Thing is, I never really saw 1 for 1 trades as 1 for 1 trades. When you factor in the night kill every night, its actually a 2 for 1 trade. Which benefits mafia in some circumstances.
drafterman
Posts: 18,870
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2/7/2012 9:09:21 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
Ok, after review my points:

1. Different kinds of 1-for-1.
As noted by BV, when you factor in the night-kill, it isn't a 1-for-1 trade. It isn't even a 2-for-1 as outlined by F-16, it's 3-for-1 (the 1-for-1 part spans over two days, ergo two nights, ergo, 2 night kills, plus the mislynch).

What other kinds are there? Well, for example, mafia hitting the bomb is a 1-for-1 trade. How would that work?, Let's take a town of all bombs...

DP1: Mislynch (9/4)
NP1: Kill bomb (8/3)
DP2: Mislynch (7/3)
NP2: Kill bomb (6/2)
DP3: Mislynch (5/2)
NP3: Kill bomb (4/1)
DP4: Mislynch (3/1)
NP4: Kill bomb (2/0)

TOWN WINS.

Here the 1-for-1 happens in an entire night phase. So even if you factor in a mislynch EACH day phase, that's still a 2-for-1 trade, and Town wins.

It all has to do with ratios. With 10 and 4, the ratio of town:mafia is greater than 2:1, so a 2:1 benefits town, but it's less than 3:1, so 3:1 benefits mafia.

2. What's being CC'd?
In the context of this post, we are talking about 1-for-1 trades in response to mafia CC'ing a townie. But what are they CCing? Roles. Even in a themed game, where you could CC a character, there are still associated roles. And roles change everything. CC vig? Well, you don't lynch anyone; you let the real vig take care of it. So it very much depends on what roles are in the game and what role is being CC'd.

3. Order matters.
Again, to address the question of whether or not mafia should CC townies, we need to consider that who gets lynched first isn't set in stone. Do you lynch the CC'ee or the CC'er? Whoever seems more suspicious? Let's say it's random:

(Mafia CC's, Townie is lynched first)
DP1: Mislynch townie (9/4)
NP1: Kill (8/4)
DP2: Lynch mafia (8/3)
NP2: Kill (7/3)

(Mafia CC's, Mafia is lynched first)
DP3: Lynch mafia (7/2)
NP3: Kill (6/2)

(Mafia CC's, Townie is lynched first)
DP4: Mislynch townie (5/2)
NP4: Kill (4/2)
DP5: Lynch mafia (4/1)
NP5: Kill (3/1)

(Mafia CC's, Mafia is lynched first)
DP6: Lynch mafia (3/0)

TOWN WINS!

So when half of the time the mafioso is lynched first, it favors town. Why? Well, when you lynch the mafioso first, it's a true 1-for-1 trade (factoring in the night kill). When you mislynch first, it's a 3-for-1 trade. These combined makes a 2-for-1 trade (4-for-2), which favors town in this setup because the ratio is greater than 2:1.

In this setup, the ratio is 5:2. That means, for every four CC's, the mafia needs to have the townie lynched first for at least three of them. Based purely on random chance, this will only happen about 31% of the time.
TUF
Posts: 21,310
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2/7/2012 12:15:35 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
I think that it is a good townie strategy to CC. I think that if you have a good role, then to just fake claim it, until it is neccesary to reveal fully.
"I've got to go and grab a shirt" ~ Airmax1227
royalpaladin
Posts: 22,357
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2/7/2012 12:42:28 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 2/7/2012 12:15:35 PM, TUF wrote:
I think that it is a good townie strategy to CC. I think that if you have a good role, then to just fake claim it, until it is neccesary to reveal fully.

It depends on the role. The vig and doctor should not counterclaim unless absolutely necessary, for example.
Lordknukle
Posts: 12,788
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2/7/2012 1:30:11 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 2/7/2012 12:42:28 PM, royalpaladin wrote:
At 2/7/2012 12:15:35 PM, TUF wrote:
I think that it is a good townie strategy to CC. I think that if you have a good role, then to just fake claim it, until it is neccesary to reveal fully.

It depends on the role. The vig and doctor should not counterclaim unless absolutely necessary, for example.

I disagree. If mafia have claimed a VIG and there is still a doctor in the game, claiming VIG is beneficial to your team.
"Easy is the descent to Avernus, for the door to the Underworld lies upon both day and night. But to retrace your steps and return to the breezes above- that's the task, that's the toil."
royalpaladin
Posts: 22,357
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2/7/2012 1:32:24 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 2/7/2012 1:30:11 PM, Lordknukle wrote:
At 2/7/2012 12:42:28 PM, royalpaladin wrote:
At 2/7/2012 12:15:35 PM, TUF wrote:
I think that it is a good townie strategy to CC. I think that if you have a good role, then to just fake claim it, until it is neccesary to reveal fully.

It depends on the role. The vig and doctor should not counterclaim unless absolutely necessary, for example.

I disagree. If mafia have claimed a VIG and there is still a doctor in the game, claiming VIG is beneficial to your team.

Not really . . . standard procedure for the vig would be to shoot the counterclaimer. This happens in almost every game in which the mafia claims vig (Final Fantasy was an exception because F_16 and lovelife overpowered the people who wanted to trick the town into losing their vig.) In fact, lovelife, the vig, even conceded that the doctor was better off protecting other people.
Lordknukle
Posts: 12,788
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2/7/2012 1:39:43 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 2/7/2012 1:32:24 PM, royalpaladin wrote:
At 2/7/2012 1:30:11 PM, Lordknukle wrote:
At 2/7/2012 12:42:28 PM, royalpaladin wrote:
At 2/7/2012 12:15:35 PM, TUF wrote:
I think that it is a good townie strategy to CC. I think that if you have a good role, then to just fake claim it, until it is neccesary to reveal fully.

It depends on the role. The vig and doctor should not counterclaim unless absolutely necessary, for example.

I disagree. If mafia have claimed a VIG and there is still a doctor in the game, claiming VIG is beneficial to your team.

Not really . . . standard procedure for the vig would be to shoot the counterclaimer. This happens in almost every game in which the mafia claims vig (Final Fantasy was an exception because F_16 and lovelife overpowered the people who wanted to trick the town into losing their vig.) In fact, lovelife, the vig, even conceded that the doctor was better off protecting other people.

Except that the person who claims VIG will most likely have the real DOC on them so often the kill won't work.
"Easy is the descent to Avernus, for the door to the Underworld lies upon both day and night. But to retrace your steps and return to the breezes above- that's the task, that's the toil."
royalpaladin
Posts: 22,357
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2/7/2012 1:42:47 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 2/7/2012 1:39:43 PM, Lordknukle wrote:
At 2/7/2012 1:32:24 PM, royalpaladin wrote:
At 2/7/2012 1:30:11 PM, Lordknukle wrote:
At 2/7/2012 12:42:28 PM, royalpaladin wrote:
At 2/7/2012 12:15:35 PM, TUF wrote:
I think that it is a good townie strategy to CC. I think that if you have a good role, then to just fake claim it, until it is neccesary to reveal fully.

It depends on the role. The vig and doctor should not counterclaim unless absolutely necessary, for example.

I disagree. If mafia have claimed a VIG and there is still a doctor in the game, claiming VIG is beneficial to your team.

Not really . . . standard procedure for the vig would be to shoot the counterclaimer. This happens in almost every game in which the mafia claims vig (Final Fantasy was an exception because F_16 and lovelife overpowered the people who wanted to trick the town into losing their vig.) In fact, lovelife, the vig, even conceded that the doctor was better off protecting other people.

Except that the person who claims VIG will most likely have the real DOC on them so often the kill won't work.

Yeah, that usually does not happen, but I suppose it could. It did not happen in Death Note, for example. (There was another game in which it did not happen as well . . .)

I guess I can see your argument, however.
Lordknukle
Posts: 12,788
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2/7/2012 1:45:25 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 2/7/2012 1:42:47 PM, royalpaladin wrote:
At 2/7/2012 1:39:43 PM, Lordknukle wrote:
At 2/7/2012 1:32:24 PM, royalpaladin wrote:
At 2/7/2012 1:30:11 PM, Lordknukle wrote:
At 2/7/2012 12:42:28 PM, royalpaladin wrote:
At 2/7/2012 12:15:35 PM, TUF wrote:
I think that it is a good townie strategy to CC. I think that if you have a good role, then to just fake claim it, until it is neccesary to reveal fully.

It depends on the role. The vig and doctor should not counterclaim unless absolutely necessary, for example.

I disagree. If mafia have claimed a VIG and there is still a doctor in the game, claiming VIG is beneficial to your team.

Not really . . . standard procedure for the vig would be to shoot the counterclaimer. This happens in almost every game in which the mafia claims vig (Final Fantasy was an exception because F_16 and lovelife overpowered the people who wanted to trick the town into losing their vig.) In fact, lovelife, the vig, even conceded that the doctor was better off protecting other people.

Except that the person who claims VIG will most likely have the real DOC on them so often the kill won't work.

Yeah, that usually does not happen, but I suppose it could. It did not happen in Death Note, for example. (There was another game in which it did not happen as well . . .)
I'm pretty sure nobody claimed VIG in the Death note.
"Easy is the descent to Avernus, for the door to the Underworld lies upon both day and night. But to retrace your steps and return to the breezes above- that's the task, that's the toil."
royalpaladin
Posts: 22,357
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2/7/2012 1:52:54 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 2/7/2012 1:45:25 PM, Lordknukle wrote:
At 2/7/2012 1:42:47 PM, royalpaladin wrote:
At 2/7/2012 1:39:43 PM, Lordknukle wrote:
At 2/7/2012 1:32:24 PM, royalpaladin wrote:
At 2/7/2012 1:30:11 PM, Lordknukle wrote:
At 2/7/2012 12:42:28 PM, royalpaladin wrote:
At 2/7/2012 12:15:35 PM, TUF wrote:
I think that it is a good townie strategy to CC. I think that if you have a good role, then to just fake claim it, until it is neccesary to reveal fully.

It depends on the role. The vig and doctor should not counterclaim unless absolutely necessary, for example.

I disagree. If mafia have claimed a VIG and there is still a doctor in the game, claiming VIG is beneficial to your team.

Not really . . . standard procedure for the vig would be to shoot the counterclaimer. This happens in almost every game in which the mafia claims vig (Final Fantasy was an exception because F_16 and lovelife overpowered the people who wanted to trick the town into losing their vig.) In fact, lovelife, the vig, even conceded that the doctor was better off protecting other people.

Except that the person who claims VIG will most likely have the real DOC on them so often the kill won't work.

Yeah, that usually does not happen, but I suppose it could. It did not happen in Death Note, for example. (There was another game in which it did not happen as well . . .)
I'm pretty sure nobody claimed VIG in the Death note.

Jordan claimed vig even though he was mafia, and Partam killed him instead of counterclaiming because he was Mello, the vig (well, he tried to kill him; Jordan was going to die anyways).
drafterman
Posts: 18,870
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2/7/2012 1:54:56 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 2/7/2012 1:39:43 PM, Lordknukle wrote:
At 2/7/2012 1:32:24 PM, royalpaladin wrote:
At 2/7/2012 1:30:11 PM, Lordknukle wrote:
At 2/7/2012 12:42:28 PM, royalpaladin wrote:
At 2/7/2012 12:15:35 PM, TUF wrote:
I think that it is a good townie strategy to CC. I think that if you have a good role, then to just fake claim it, until it is neccesary to reveal fully.

It depends on the role. The vig and doctor should not counterclaim unless absolutely necessary, for example.

I disagree. If mafia have claimed a VIG and there is still a doctor in the game, claiming VIG is beneficial to your team.

Not really . . . standard procedure for the vig would be to shoot the counterclaimer. This happens in almost every game in which the mafia claims vig (Final Fantasy was an exception because F_16 and lovelife overpowered the people who wanted to trick the town into losing their vig.) In fact, lovelife, the vig, even conceded that the doctor was better off protecting other people.

Except that the person who claims VIG will most likely have the real DOC on them so often the kill won't work.

Uhm... why?
Lordknukle
Posts: 12,788
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2/7/2012 1:57:47 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 2/7/2012 1:54:56 PM, drafterman wrote:
At 2/7/2012 1:39:43 PM, Lordknukle wrote:
At 2/7/2012 1:32:24 PM, royalpaladin wrote:
At 2/7/2012 1:30:11 PM, Lordknukle wrote:
At 2/7/2012 12:42:28 PM, royalpaladin wrote:
At 2/7/2012 12:15:35 PM, TUF wrote:
I think that it is a good townie strategy to CC. I think that if you have a good role, then to just fake claim it, until it is neccesary to reveal fully.

It depends on the role. The vig and doctor should not counterclaim unless absolutely necessary, for example.

I disagree. If mafia have claimed a VIG and there is still a doctor in the game, claiming VIG is beneficial to your team.

Not really . . . standard procedure for the vig would be to shoot the counterclaimer. This happens in almost every game in which the mafia claims vig (Final Fantasy was an exception because F_16 and lovelife overpowered the people who wanted to trick the town into losing their vig.) In fact, lovelife, the vig, even conceded that the doctor was better off protecting other people.

Except that the person who claims VIG will most likely have the real DOC on them so often the kill won't work.

Uhm... why?

Because they have a DOC on them.....
"Easy is the descent to Avernus, for the door to the Underworld lies upon both day and night. But to retrace your steps and return to the breezes above- that's the task, that's the toil."
royalpaladin
Posts: 22,357
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2/7/2012 1:58:30 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 2/7/2012 1:57:47 PM, Lordknukle wrote:
At 2/7/2012 1:54:56 PM, drafterman wrote:
At 2/7/2012 1:39:43 PM, Lordknukle wrote:
At 2/7/2012 1:32:24 PM, royalpaladin wrote:
At 2/7/2012 1:30:11 PM, Lordknukle wrote:
At 2/7/2012 12:42:28 PM, royalpaladin wrote:
At 2/7/2012 12:15:35 PM, TUF wrote:
I think that it is a good townie strategy to CC. I think that if you have a good role, then to just fake claim it, until it is neccesary to reveal fully.

It depends on the role. The vig and doctor should not counterclaim unless absolutely necessary, for example.

I disagree. If mafia have claimed a VIG and there is still a doctor in the game, claiming VIG is beneficial to your team.

Not really . . . standard procedure for the vig would be to shoot the counterclaimer. This happens in almost every game in which the mafia claims vig (Final Fantasy was an exception because F_16 and lovelife overpowered the people who wanted to trick the town into losing their vig.) In fact, lovelife, the vig, even conceded that the doctor was better off protecting other people.

Except that the person who claims VIG will most likely have the real DOC on them so often the kill won't work.

Uhm... why?

Because they have a DOC on them.....

He is asking why the doc would stay on them when there are usually other, more important roles to protect.
Lordknukle
Posts: 12,788
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2/7/2012 1:59:19 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 2/7/2012 1:58:30 PM, royalpaladin wrote:
At 2/7/2012 1:57:47 PM, Lordknukle wrote:
At 2/7/2012 1:54:56 PM, drafterman wrote:
At 2/7/2012 1:39:43 PM, Lordknukle wrote:
At 2/7/2012 1:32:24 PM, royalpaladin wrote:
At 2/7/2012 1:30:11 PM, Lordknukle wrote:
At 2/7/2012 12:42:28 PM, royalpaladin wrote:
At 2/7/2012 12:15:35 PM, TUF wrote:
I think that it is a good townie strategy to CC. I think that if you have a good role, then to just fake claim it, until it is neccesary to reveal fully.

It depends on the role. The vig and doctor should not counterclaim unless absolutely necessary, for example.

I disagree. If mafia have claimed a VIG and there is still a doctor in the game, claiming VIG is beneficial to your team.

Not really . . . standard procedure for the vig would be to shoot the counterclaimer. This happens in almost every game in which the mafia claims vig (Final Fantasy was an exception because F_16 and lovelife overpowered the people who wanted to trick the town into losing their vig.) In fact, lovelife, the vig, even conceded that the doctor was better off protecting other people.

Except that the person who claims VIG will most likely have the real DOC on them so often the kill won't work.

Uhm... why?

Because they have a DOC on them.....

He is asking why the doc would stay on them when there are usually other, more important roles to protect.

A VIG is a very important roles. They can be imperative in deciding the fate of the game, especially later on.
"Easy is the descent to Avernus, for the door to the Underworld lies upon both day and night. But to retrace your steps and return to the breezes above- that's the task, that's the toil."
nonentity
Posts: 5,008
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2/7/2012 2:00:31 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
I've thought about claiming doctor (as mafia) early on to get the real doctor to reveal themselves early... but I can't really see a game of counterclaiming working out for the mafia, with investigative roles and protective roles. The town is likely to investigate rather than mislynch, and there's no guarantee a mafia kill will go through.
drafterman
Posts: 18,870
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2/7/2012 2:18:57 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 2/7/2012 1:59:19 PM, Lordknukle wrote:
At 2/7/2012 1:58:30 PM, royalpaladin wrote:
At 2/7/2012 1:57:47 PM, Lordknukle wrote:
At 2/7/2012 1:54:56 PM, drafterman wrote:
At 2/7/2012 1:39:43 PM, Lordknukle wrote:
At 2/7/2012 1:32:24 PM, royalpaladin wrote:
At 2/7/2012 1:30:11 PM, Lordknukle wrote:
At 2/7/2012 12:42:28 PM, royalpaladin wrote:
At 2/7/2012 12:15:35 PM, TUF wrote:
I think that it is a good townie strategy to CC. I think that if you have a good role, then to just fake claim it, until it is neccesary to reveal fully.

It depends on the role. The vig and doctor should not counterclaim unless absolutely necessary, for example.

I disagree. If mafia have claimed a VIG and there is still a doctor in the game, claiming VIG is beneficial to your team.

Not really . . . standard procedure for the vig would be to shoot the counterclaimer. This happens in almost every game in which the mafia claims vig (Final Fantasy was an exception because F_16 and lovelife overpowered the people who wanted to trick the town into losing their vig.) In fact, lovelife, the vig, even conceded that the doctor was better off protecting other people.

Except that the person who claims VIG will most likely have the real DOC on them so often the kill won't work.

Uhm... why?

Because they have a DOC on them.....

He is asking why the doc would stay on them when there are usually other, more important roles to protect.

A VIG is a very important roles. They can be imperative in deciding the fate of the game, especially later on.

No, I'm asking why the Doc would necessarily be on the person who claims Vig when the Vig is CCd. How would the Doc know which is the real Vig?