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Mafia is a Mafia-Sided Game

royalpaladin
Posts: 22,357
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2/10/2012 12:02:54 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
I have noticed that almost every non-Beginner game in the past month or so has resulted in a mafia victory. With the exception of a single game, the mafia has won every single time.

HvV-Mafia win
Starcraft-Mafia win
Monk-Mafia win
Aerial Warfare-Mafia win
Death Note-Survivor win (Mafia-second place)
Final Fantasy 7-Mafia win
Solar System-Mafia win
Monetary-Mafia win

Mods are making the game easier for the mafia by making it too powerful. Perhaps stronger townie roles ought to be developed . . .
royalpaladin
Posts: 22,357
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2/10/2012 12:06:42 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
To start, I would eliminate Mafia JOATS and Janitors entirely. I also would advocate the introduction of the townie Nexus role.
TUF
Posts: 21,309
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2/10/2012 12:11:04 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 2/10/2012 12:02:54 AM, royalpaladin wrote:
I have noticed that almost every non-Beginner game in the past month or so has resulted in a mafia victory. With the exception of a single game, the mafia has won every single time.

HvV-Mafia win
Starcraft-Mafia win
Monk-Mafia win
Aerial Warfare-Mafia win
Death Note-Survivor win (Mafia-second place)
Final Fantasy 7-Mafia win
Solar System-Mafia win
Monetary-Mafia win


Mods are making the game easier for the mafia by making it too powerful. Perhaps stronger townie roles ought to be developed . . .

Agree. Either less mafia, or less good mafia roles should combat that.
"I've got to go and grab a shirt" ~ Airmax1227
royalpaladin
Posts: 22,357
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2/10/2012 12:13:07 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 2/10/2012 12:11:04 AM, TUF wrote:
At 2/10/2012 12:02:54 AM, royalpaladin wrote:
I have noticed that almost every non-Beginner game in the past month or so has resulted in a mafia victory. With the exception of a single game, the mafia has won every single time.

HvV-Mafia win
Starcraft-Mafia win
Monk-Mafia win
Aerial Warfare-Mafia win
Death Note-Survivor win (Mafia-second place)
Final Fantasy 7-Mafia win
Solar System-Mafia win
Monetary-Mafia win


Mods are making the game easier for the mafia by making it too powerful. Perhaps stronger townie roles ought to be developed . . .

Agree. Either less mafia, or less good mafia roles should combat that.

The town needs stronger roles, to be frank.
lovelife
Posts: 14,629
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2/10/2012 12:14:06 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 2/10/2012 12:13:07 AM, royalpaladin wrote:
At 2/10/2012 12:11:04 AM, TUF wrote:
At 2/10/2012 12:02:54 AM, royalpaladin wrote:
I have noticed that almost every non-Beginner game in the past month or so has resulted in a mafia victory. With the exception of a single game, the mafia has won every single time.

HvV-Mafia win
Starcraft-Mafia win
Monk-Mafia win
Aerial Warfare-Mafia win
Death Note-Survivor win (Mafia-second place)
Final Fantasy 7-Mafia win
Solar System-Mafia win
Monetary-Mafia win


Mods are making the game easier for the mafia by making it too powerful. Perhaps stronger townie roles ought to be developed . . .

Agree. Either less mafia, or less good mafia roles should combat that.

The town needs stronger roles, to be frank.

L was a pretty strong role
Without Royal there is a hole inside of me, I have no choice but to leave
royalpaladin
Posts: 22,357
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2/10/2012 12:15:28 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 2/10/2012 12:14:06 AM, lovelife wrote:
At 2/10/2012 12:13:07 AM, royalpaladin wrote:
At 2/10/2012 12:11:04 AM, TUF wrote:
At 2/10/2012 12:02:54 AM, royalpaladin wrote:
I have noticed that almost every non-Beginner game in the past month or so has resulted in a mafia victory. With the exception of a single game, the mafia has won every single time.

HvV-Mafia win
Starcraft-Mafia win
Monk-Mafia win
Aerial Warfare-Mafia win
Death Note-Survivor win (Mafia-second place)
Final Fantasy 7-Mafia win
Solar System-Mafia win
Monetary-Mafia win


Mods are making the game easier for the mafia by making it too powerful. Perhaps stronger townie roles ought to be developed . . .

Agree. Either less mafia, or less good mafia roles should combat that.

The town needs stronger roles, to be frank.

L was a pretty strong role

How exactly did his role function? I understand that he could have broken through barriers, and that he received "info", but what was that info?

Anyways, the Mods should stop giving the Mafia fakeclaims at the very least.
F-16_Fighting_Falcon
Posts: 18,324
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2/10/2012 12:19:09 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
Royal, the mafia has won these games because they relied on a strategy of eliminating all the logically thinking players first instead of strategically going after confirmed players and townie power roles. If you kill all the good players, yes you will coast to an easy win, but what fun is it winning against noobs every game?

HvV-Mafia win (because Blue was lynched DP2 and Drafterman was killed)
Starcraft-Mafia win (we actually worked hard for that win)
Monk-Mafia win (Me and LDF were killed within 3 Day Phases)
Aerial Warfare-Mafia win (Town was reckless)
Death Note-Survivor win (Mafia-second place) (Town played really badly)
Final Fantasy 7-Mafia win (I was the ONLY experienced player in the town sided and killed NP2)
Solar System-Mafia win (Sheer luck that the Serial Killer targeted all townies)
Monetary-Mafia win (BH worked really hard for this win and we strategized a lot and barely scraped through)
Logic_on_rails
Posts: 2,445
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2/10/2012 12:19:31 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
The problem with your analysis is that it doesn't attempt to explain why the town lost.

There are many factors besides roles which can be modified. Yes, mods have been getting far too elaborate in their Mafia JOATs which I agree should be seriously scaled back due to their versatility.

However, you completely ignore the reason town has lost each individual game. Now, I've only been in 1 of the games listed, but I think I can still help out. In the past many players were inactive in the Mafia and the Mafia became crippled. Now I see mods giving the Mafia lots of good players (like in Aerial Warfare Mafia) and often the town has some easily swayed players.

The other key thing that has been giving Mafia recent wins is the inclusion of serial killers. Serial killers used to be really rare, but now they are common. As serial killers thin out the numbers they really help the Mafia. Of course, instances of serial killer victories are almost non-existent. So, getting rid of serial killers (or fixing the problem...) is the best solution to the current problem.
"Tis not in mortals to command success
But we"ll do more, Sempronius, we"ll deserve it
BlackVoid
Posts: 9,170
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2/10/2012 12:22:06 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
Mods tend to make the mafia all decent to strong players. Mafia very rarely have weak links. Weak links are almost always on the town.
BlackVoid
Posts: 9,170
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2/10/2012 12:24:48 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
I actually think the Death Note game was extremely town biased looking back. Mafia had three members when Misa died automatically, so it was basically three mafia in a 17 player game. Then L was like, the best investigator ever, and plenty of townies could confirm themselves. Town just lynched people way too easily that game.

Solar System was, as F-16 said, sheer luck based off SK's night kills.
royalpaladin
Posts: 22,357
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2/10/2012 12:25:37 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 2/10/2012 12:19:09 AM, F-16_Fighting_Falcon wrote:
Royal, the mafia has won these games because they relied on a strategy of eliminating all the logically thinking players first instead of strategically going after confirmed players and townie power roles. If you kill all the good players, yes you will coast to an easy win, but what fun is it winning against noobs every game?

I am not sure that this is entirely true. These games were definitely mafia-sided . . .
HvV-Mafia win (because Blue was lynched DP2 and Drafterman was killed)
Mafia JOAT and a Godfather rolecop that was immune to character investigations. In addition, Partam was still alive until the end, and Drafterman and lovelife survived until the second to last Day Phase.
Starcraft-Mafia win (we actually worked hard for that win)
I am pretty sure that you posted in the Endgame thread with arguments about how this game was mafia-sided and how town had no chance of winning . . .
Monk-Mafia win (Me and LDF were killed within 3 Day Phases)
LDF came back, and socialpinko was alive until the end. The mafia only won because medic and I somehow led a random mislynch on HPG and tricked socialpinko into hammering on Viper.
Aerial Warfare-Mafia win (Town was reckless)
Townie roles had to be activated by an Enabler, who was janitored DP1.
Death Note-Survivor win (Mafia-second place) (Town played really badly)
Mafia was basically investigation proof and they received completely free fakeclaims from the mod.
Final Fantasy 7-Mafia win (I was the ONLY experienced player in the town sided and killed NP2)
lovelife, Partam, and BlackHawk were all experienced players, and they stayed alive until the end.
Solar System-Mafia win (Sheer luck that the Serial Killer targeted all townies)
True
Monetary-Mafia win (BH worked really hard for this win and we strategized a lot and barely scraped through)
Andro, Koopin, and I were killed almost immediately, and LDF was the only player left. I agree that you guys did a fantastic job, but you followed the same strategy that you are trying to condemn me for using :p
royalpaladin
Posts: 22,357
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2/10/2012 12:29:47 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
As for Final Fantasy 7: did you really expect me to keep you alive after you spent an entire DP claiming that I was mafia? I was not going to kill you, but you made it necessary. I had no backup from my teammates after TUF was lynched.
Viper-King
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2/10/2012 12:37:51 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 2/10/2012 12:29:47 AM, royalpaladin wrote:
As for Final Fantasy 7: did you really expect me to keep you alive after you spent an entire DP claiming that I was mafia? I was not going to kill you, but you made it necessary. I had no backup from my teammates after TUF was lynched.
hahah i got u all by claiming PGO...
F-16_Fighting_Falcon
Posts: 18,324
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2/10/2012 12:41:37 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 2/10/2012 12:25:37 AM, royalpaladin wrote:
At 2/10/2012 12:19:09 AM, F-16_Fighting_Falcon wrote:
Royal, the mafia has won these games because they relied on a strategy of eliminating all the logically thinking players first instead of strategically going after confirmed players and townie power roles. If you kill all the good players, yes you will coast to an easy win, but what fun is it winning against noobs every game?

I am not sure that this is entirely true. These games were definitely mafia-sided . . .
HvV-Mafia win (because Blue was lynched DP2 and Drafterman was killed)
Mafia JOAT and a Godfather rolecop that was immune to character investigations. In addition, Partam was still alive until the end, and Drafterman and lovelife survived until the second to last Day Phase.

Vmp confirmed PR. The only reason they voted for him was because they were noobs. Had Drafterman been alive, PR would still have been unconfirmed and the game would have been more subtle and challenging.

Starcraft-Mafia win (we actually worked hard for that win)
I am pretty sure that you posted in the Endgame thread with arguments about how this game was mafia-sided and how town had no chance of winning . . .

Town did have two mislynches though: you and Ober.

Monk-Mafia win (Me and LDF were killed within 3 Day Phases)
LDF came back, and socialpinko was alive until the end. The mafia only won because medic and I somehow led a random mislynch on HPG and tricked socialpinko into hammering on Viper.

I will agree that this was a bit mafia-sided, but then again, if I was alive, town could have won. Just saying.

Aerial Warfare-Mafia win (Town was reckless)
Townie roles had to be activated by an Enabler, who was janitored DP1.

Town got a guilty on Vmp and lynched Viper instead. Then they lynched Ober, and vig-killed the bomb.

Death Note-Survivor win (Mafia-second place) (Town played really badly)
Mafia was basically investigation proof and they received completely free fakeclaims from the mod.

Town made FIVE mislynches.

Final Fantasy 7-Mafia win (I was the ONLY experienced player in the town sided and killed NP2)
lovelife, Partam, and BlackHawk were all experienced players, and they stayed alive until the end.

I have no idea why they played the way they did but it was pretty clear who the mafia were.

Solar System-Mafia win (Sheer luck that the Serial Killer targeted all townies)
True

Monetary-Mafia win (BH worked really hard for this win and we strategized a lot and barely scraped through)
Andro, Koopin, and I were killed almost immediately, and LDF was the only player left. I agree that you guys did a fantastic job, but you followed the same strategy that you are trying to condemn me for using :p

We killed them because of the test that confirmed them. We had three confirmed townies on NP1. We had no choice. The ONLY unconfirmed experienced player was LDF and we never killed her. We killed Viper instead.
F-16_Fighting_Falcon
Posts: 18,324
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2/10/2012 12:48:54 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
In games where I actually survived till the end or came back in as a replacement:

1) Miscellaneous mafia - town win (many experienced players were alive - me, LDF, Drafterman, Medic)
2) Interewebz - town win (Danielle was never killed)
3) QT films mafia - town win (Drafterman was never killed, I came back in as a replacement)
4) C "ACIT" mafia - town win (Drafterman was never killed, I came back in as a replacement)
royalpaladin
Posts: 22,357
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2/10/2012 12:57:52 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 2/10/2012 12:48:54 AM, F-16_Fighting_Falcon wrote:
In games where I actually survived till the end or came back in as a replacement:

1) Miscellaneous mafia - town win (many experienced players were alive - me, LDF, Drafterman, Medic)
I never saw this, so I cannot comment.
2) Interewebz - town win (Danielle was never killed)
LDF had a ridiculously broken role called "role recycler". In the end, that made no difference, but the game was definitely more balanced.
3) QT films mafia - town win (Drafterman was never killed, I came back in as a replacement)
I got lynched DP1 and was killed both times I came back . . . I have no comment.
4) C "ACIT" mafia - town win (Drafterman was never killed, I came back in as a replacement)
I played for like one DP . . .

Dude, you are not the only experienced player. In several of the games that I mentioned, there were experienced players who legitimately lost to the mafia. Perhaps you would have won if you had been alive, but that just means that you are better than every other player. That does not mean that my strategy was to eliminate all of the experienced players ASAP.

In HvV, we eliminated drafterman because we thought that Partam might have had a gun (you actually agreed to that kill in the mafia PM).

In Monk, we killed you because you had the best role, and not because you were experienced.

In Final Fantasy, I deliberately kept three of the best players alive until the end. I would have kept you alive as well, but I had no back up and you were going to get me lynched. In addition, you were basically confirmed because of the TUF lynch.

In fact, we could have killed you on DP1 because we were trying to frame BH, but we chose to kill Knukle, a n00b, instead.

So yeah, I did not win those games just because I killed you off.
tvellalott
Posts: 10,864
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2/10/2012 3:26:12 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
It doesn't take much for town or mafia to lose very quickly. I mean, the ratio in my HvV:Cartoons was 12:4:2. Mafia had a Godfather, but there was an Upsurper to balance this and the JOAT had to be careful to avoid hitting the Road Runner or risked instant death, so that weakened him significantly. Town had 4 roles which could have been investigative with a few negatives thrown in to balance it, but there were some powerful roles.

The problem was (as I outlined in the end game) that some of the townies played very, very badly. I mean, mafia made just one bad mistake and it cost them dearly and the last mafia was so blatantly obvious(to me anyway), it boggles my mind how mafia won. Kudos to you royal I suppose.

I maintain that my game at least was fairly balanced. My upcoming HvV comic book game will be done in a similar vain.
"Caitlyn Jenner is an incredibly brave and stunningly beautiful woman."

Muh threads
Using mafia tactics in real-life: http://www.debate.org...
6 years of DDO: http://www.debate.org...
royalpaladin
Posts: 22,357
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2/10/2012 3:28:29 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 2/10/2012 3:26:12 AM, tvellalott wrote:
It doesn't take much for town or mafia to lose very quickly. I mean, the ratio in my HvV:Cartoons was 12:4:2. Mafia had a Godfather, but there was an Upsurper to balance this and the JOAT had to be careful to avoid hitting the Road Runner or risked instant death, so that weakened him significantly. Town had 4 roles which could have been investigative with a few negatives thrown in to balance it, but there were some powerful roles.

The problem was (as I outlined in the end game) that some of the townies played very, very badly. I mean, mafia made just one bad mistake and it cost them dearly and the last mafia was so blatantly obvious(to me anyway), it boggles my mind how mafia won. Kudos to you royal I suppose.

I maintain that my game at least was fairly balanced. My upcoming HvV comic book game will be done in a similar vain.

Perhaps the problem is that people are better at playing mafia than at playing town? If townies are consistently making horrendous errors across several games, then perhaps the players on DDO are just better at playing scum-sided roles. This is definitely the case for me, at least.
BlackVoid
Posts: 9,170
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2/10/2012 3:38:10 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
I think we're just having a trend that naturally happens due to chance. For instance, mafia won 6/7 of those games you listed. Well, if you look at the last 7 games before that,

Inheritance - Town win
Camp Half-Blood - Mafia win
C-Acit - Town win
Actors - Town win
Quentin Tarantino - Town win
Interwebz - Town win
Miscellaneous - Town win

Town won 6/7 of those.

I would say mod balancing was drastically different in any of those games than it was in the ones you listed. Trends just tend to happen. They balance out eventually.
BlackVoid
Posts: 9,170
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2/10/2012 3:38:41 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 2/10/2012 3:38:10 AM, BlackVoid wrote:
I think we're just having a trend that naturally happens due to chance. For instance, mafia won 6/7 of those games you listed. Well, if you look at the last 7 games before that,

Inheritance - Town win
Camp Half-Blood - Mafia win
C-Acit - Town win
Actors - Town win
Quentin Tarantino - Town win
Interwebz - Town win
Miscellaneous - Town win

Town won 6/7 of those.

I wouldn't say mod balancing was drastically different in any of those games than it was in the ones you listed. Trends just tend to happen. They balance out eventually.
tvellalott
Posts: 10,864
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2/10/2012 3:40:00 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 2/10/2012 3:28:29 AM, royalpaladin wrote:
Perhaps the problem is that people are better at playing mafia than at playing town? If townies are consistently making horrendous errors across several games, then perhaps the players on DDO are just better at playing scum-sided roles. This is definitely the case for me, at least.

Mafia is definitely easier, but you have to be very careful about how strong you make the town. If they're too powerful, you can make it impossible for mafia to win very quickly. Making a mistake as mafia is very unforgiving.
"Caitlyn Jenner is an incredibly brave and stunningly beautiful woman."

Muh threads
Using mafia tactics in real-life: http://www.debate.org...
6 years of DDO: http://www.debate.org...
royalpaladin
Posts: 22,357
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2/10/2012 3:42:10 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 2/10/2012 3:38:41 AM, BlackVoid wrote:
At 2/10/2012 3:38:10 AM, BlackVoid wrote:
I think we're just having a trend that naturally happens due to chance. For instance, mafia won 6/7 of those games you listed. Well, if you look at the last 7 games before that,

Inheritance - Town win
Camp Half-Blood - Mafia win
C-Acit - Town win
Actors - Town win
Quentin Tarantino - Town win
Interwebz - Town win
Miscellaneous - Town win

Town won 6/7 of those.

I wouldn't say mod balancing was drastically different in any of those games than it was in the ones you listed. Trends just tend to happen. They balance out eventually.

Ok, I concede.

Note that this thread was not meant to attack any of the mods . . . I was simply noting a trend that I thought was worrisome. Now that the issue has been cleared up, I am happy to retract all of my previous statements.
lovelife
Posts: 14,629
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2/10/2012 3:47:04 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
I like playing as mafia tho, I hate that I've been either town or third party in all but one game I've played since I've come back lol (and in death note I was just a replacement, and basically a goon since there was no point in framing anyone once I joined)
Death Note was fun tho, not just cause of teh mafia-ness, but because it's death note and death note is fawking awesome, lol.

/needs sleep
Without Royal there is a hole inside of me, I have no choice but to leave
lovelife
Posts: 14,629
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2/10/2012 3:48:25 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
On the flip side I like how in nearly every game I've been in I've had a really strong main character so I could play aggressively, and be really active, and -not- be killed for it.
Without Royal there is a hole inside of me, I have no choice but to leave
F-16_Fighting_Falcon
Posts: 18,324
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2/10/2012 9:17:55 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 2/10/2012 3:40:00 AM, tvellalott wrote:
At 2/10/2012 3:28:29 AM, royalpaladin wrote:
Perhaps the problem is that people are better at playing mafia than at playing town? If townies are consistently making horrendous errors across several games, then perhaps the players on DDO are just better at playing scum-sided roles. This is definitely the case for me, at least.

Mafia is definitely easier, but you have to be very careful about how strong you make the town. If they're too powerful, you can make it impossible for mafia to win very quickly. Making a mistake as mafia is very unforgiving.

I agree with this. I also think that when is doubt, overpower the mafia and underpower the town. For some players, it is definitely a lot easier to play as town than as scum like me for instance.

What I think is important is that town be allowed to make a certain number of mistakes (mislynches or the vig killing townies) before they lose. In my game for instance, I worked out how many mistakes the mafia needed at a minimum in order to win. Best case scenario: 3, worst case scenario: 5.

I'd say the monetary game was town-sided as well for instance because town mislynched twice and two townies killed two other townies using vig powers.
TUF
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2/11/2012 4:26:32 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
Question to everyone: If you were town, would you rather face a large mafia team with, not so great roles, or a small mafia team with good roles?
"I've got to go and grab a shirt" ~ Airmax1227
OberHerr
Posts: 13,062
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2/11/2012 4:27:31 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 2/11/2012 4:26:32 PM, TUF wrote:
Question to everyone: If you were town, would you rather face a large mafia team with, not so great roles, or a small mafia team with good roles?

Small.

Why? Cause, no matter what the roles, you can still take them down much faster than with large numbers.
-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-OBERHERR'S SIGNATURE-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-

Official Enforcer for the DDO Elite(if they existed).

"Cases are anti-town." - FourTrouble

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Hardcore.Pwnography
Posts: 4,720
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2/11/2012 4:28:46 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 2/11/2012 4:26:32 PM, TUF wrote:
Question to everyone: If you were town, would you rather face a large mafia team with, not so great roles, or a small mafia team with good roles?

Big. Easier to find out who the maf are.