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We are still making mafia OP

Thaddeus
Posts: 6,985
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2/25/2012 9:53:49 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
TV shows - mafia
Thing - mafia
Juggernaut - mafia
Gangster - mafia
Death in mystere - mafia
DDO players - mafia (technically doesn't count because there is no town)
Inheritance - town
HvV-Mafia win
Starcraft-Mafia win
Monk-Mafia win
Aerial Warfare-Mafia win
Death Note-Survivor win (Mafia-second place)
Final Fantasy 7-Mafia win
Solar System-Mafia win
Monetary-Mafia win

When 3rd parties have the same proportion of wins as town, you know something is amiss. I believe it is very important future mods do something about this. The severity of the problem indicates that it is worth shifting the balance significantly.. Depowering the mafia is likely a better solution to increasing the power of the town.

On an unrelated note: I now am the proud owner of a monocle.
Stephen_Hawkins
Posts: 5,316
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2/25/2012 11:03:57 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
I want that monocle.

VTL Mods
Give a man a fish, he'll eat for a day. Teach him how to be Gay, he'll positively influence the GDP.

Social Contract Theory debate: http://www.debate.org...
OberHerr
Posts: 13,062
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2/25/2012 11:05:07 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
This whole OP.

I mean, it's starting to get stupid.
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"Cases are anti-town." - FourTrouble

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TUF
Posts: 21,310
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2/25/2012 11:25:32 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
I have structured my DBZ game to be perfectly even I feel. Its hard to make both sides even when the mafia can manipulate the game however they want.
"I've got to go and grab a shirt" ~ Airmax1227
OberHerr
Posts: 13,062
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2/25/2012 11:27:16 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 2/25/2012 11:25:32 AM, TUF wrote:
I have structured my DBZ game to be perfectly even I feel. Its hard to make both sides even when the mafia can manipulate the game however they want.

I'm structuring my Halo game to make it Third=Party winnable.

But town will be rather powerful as well.
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Official Enforcer for the DDO Elite(if they existed).

"Cases are anti-town." - FourTrouble

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medic0506
Posts: 13,450
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2/25/2012 11:55:16 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
I do agree that with the increase in the complexity of games, towns have become severely disadvantaged. There are a number of things that are causing this. Towns have to figure out game mechanics, which takes more time with complex games. The roles are becoming more complex and difficult to believe when claimed, this has the net effect of opening up a number of new roles that mafia can get away with fake claiming. After one recent game we can't even depend on third parties having a seperate win condition any more, if they can win with one of the factions. Then we throw in the different mods doing things differently, and striving to keep from being predictable, and we have no objective standards that we can count on in a game. All of this adds up to one thing, towns are screwed.

I think we all like the complex games so simplifying the games is not really an option. We could always decrease the number of mafia, give the town more powerful roles, begin auto-protecting random players so that mafia don't have such an easy time killing townies. There are a number of things that can be done in response to this, but I don't suggest drastic measures. To me, the game is suppose to be difficult for townies, but mods do need to give us a fighting chance.

One other thing that I've seen lately that really puts the town at a disadvantage is the number of lazy players, and inactivity. Townies depend on each other to help ferret out the mafia, but so many people don't want to read the discussions. It chaps my a$$ everytime I see "Summary please", every two or three pages. Ya know what, if you're not going to read and know what's going on, then I don't want you to vote because you don't know what the hell you're voting on. Scum droppings are rarely obvious, the devil is in the details, so you can't get an accurate picture of what's happened from reading someone's biased summary. What if that person giving the summary to you is mafia?? I realize that the post count gets high at times but that's life, the rest of us read it so can you. Stop depending on the active players to do everything for you, and you just pop in to announce that you're here and cast a vote. Read the discussion, think for yourself, and contribute something even if you're wrong. That's the only way you're going to learn. Sorry for the rant but I really do believe that this is an aspect of the game that is adding to the number of town losses.
drafterman
Posts: 18,870
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2/25/2012 12:22:45 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 2/25/2012 11:55:16 AM, medic0506 wrote:
I do agree that with the increase in the complexity of games, towns have become severely disadvantaged. There are a number of things that are causing this. Towns have to figure out game mechanics, which takes more time with complex games. The roles are becoming more complex and difficult to believe when claimed, this has the net effect of opening up a number of new roles that mafia can get away with fake claiming. After one recent game we can't even depend on third parties having a seperate win condition any more, if they can win with one of the factions. Then we throw in the different mods doing things differently, and striving to keep from being predictable, and we have no objective standards that we can count on in a game. All of this adds up to one thing, towns are screwed.

I think we all like the complex games so simplifying the games is not really an option. We could always decrease the number of mafia, give the town more powerful roles, begin auto-protecting random players so that mafia don't have such an easy time killing townies. There are a number of things that can be done in response to this, but I don't suggest drastic measures. To me, the game is suppose to be difficult for townies, but mods do need to give us a fighting chance.

One other thing that I've seen lately that really puts the town at a disadvantage is the number of lazy players, and inactivity. Townies depend on each other to help ferret out the mafia, but so many people don't want to read the discussions. It chaps my a$$ everytime I see "Summary please", every two or three pages. Ya know what, if you're not going to read and know what's going on, then I don't want you to vote because you don't know what the hell you're voting on. Scum droppings are rarely obvious, the devil is in the details, so you can't get an accurate picture of what's happened from reading someone's biased summary. What if that person giving the summary to you is mafia?? I realize that the post count gets high at times but that's life, the rest of us read it so can you. Stop depending on the active players to do everything for you, and you just pop in to announce that you're here and cast a vote. Read the discussion, think for yourself, and contribute something even if you're wrong. That's the only way you're going to learn. Sorry for the rant but I really do believe that this is an aspect of the game that is adding to the number of town losses.

The bolded should be a mod-killable offense or, at the very least, silences them, steals their vote and puts it on themselves, and role blocks them that night.
bluesteel
Posts: 12,301
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2/25/2012 12:24:36 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
I can only go game by game to see whether there is fair balance, but I saw royal say the same thing a month back about a bunch of mafia wins proving that mods are too pro-mafia and someone (either F16 or drafterman) went through each one and showed why each was due to town mistakes or mafia luck. Blackhawk's recent game was all luck. Had HCP not chosen to be mafia instead of town and had two town kills not been stopped in the last NP (by a doctor and RB) AND had the doctor not mod-killed himself, then mafia probably would have lost.

I agree with medic that the increasing complexity of the games can be annoying at times for both sides. Medic already outlined why it's a problem for town, but it's no fun for mafia either when you're supposed to have all the info, but you don't (you don't know game mechanics, the townies are all lying about their roles and have infinite role complexity, making it impossible to fake claim, etc).

I was surprised to hear that one of F16's favorite games was my Pixar game. I considered that game to be *very* straight up. But I guess people do want more straight up games. The whole fun of mafia is figuring stuff out in the DP, not having some weird complex slew of role actions winning stuff for you. So I guess people are kind of saying that they want games to be kept simpler.
You can't reason someone out of a position they didn't reason themselves into - Jonathan Swift (paraphrase)
royalpaladin
Posts: 22,357
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2/25/2012 12:26:26 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 2/25/2012 11:55:16 AM, medic0506 wrote:
I do agree that with the increase in the complexity of games, towns have become severely disadvantaged. There are a number of things that are causing this. Towns have to figure out game mechanics, which takes more time with complex games. The roles are becoming more complex and difficult to believe when claimed, this has the net effect of opening up a number of new roles that mafia can get away with fake claiming. After one recent game we can't even depend on third parties having a seperate win condition any more, if they can win with one of the factions. Then we throw in the different mods doing things differently, and striving to keep from being predictable, and we have no objective standards that we can count on in a game. All of this adds up to one thing, towns are screwed.

I think we all like the complex games so simplifying the games is not really an option. We could always decrease the number of mafia, give the town more powerful roles, begin auto-protecting random players so that mafia don't have such an easy time killing townies. There are a number of things that can be done in response to this, but I don't suggest drastic measures. To me, the game is suppose to be difficult for townies, but mods do need to give us a fighting chance.

One other thing that I've seen lately that really puts the town at a disadvantage is the number of lazy players, and inactivity. Townies depend on each other to help ferret out the mafia, but so many people don't want to read the discussions. It chaps my a$$ everytime I see "Summary please", every two or three pages. Ya know what, if you're not going to read and know what's going on, then I don't want you to vote because you don't know what the hell you're voting on. Scum droppings are rarely obvious, the devil is in the details, so you can't get an accurate picture of what's happened from reading someone's biased summary. What if that person giving the summary to you is mafia?? I realize that the post count gets high at times but that's life, the rest of us read it so can you. Stop depending on the active players to do everything for you, and you just pop in to announce that you're here and cast a vote. Read the discussion, think for yourself, and contribute something even if you're wrong. That's the only way you're going to learn. Sorry for the rant but I really do believe that this is an aspect of the game that is adding to the number of town losses.

This. I have always taken the opportunity to give biased summaries to individuals who ask whenever I am mafia. It is very easy to get mislynches that way.
OberHerr
Posts: 13,062
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2/25/2012 12:28:07 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
Ok, with the whole "summary please"thing.

IT MAKES SENSE.

Sometimes, people, go somewhere, or are not on the computer every second of the game.

And guess what? They want to know whats going on.

Or if they have multiple games going on, plus are debating on the forums and actual debating......

Basically, people don't ask it just to annoy people.
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Official Enforcer for the DDO Elite(if they existed).

"Cases are anti-town." - FourTrouble

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royalpaladin
Posts: 22,357
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2/25/2012 12:28:48 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
Here is what I think:

If you are going to pop in and ask for summaries without doing any reading for posting any of your own ideas, you should only sign up for one game at a time. More often than not, game space is being devoured by individuals who literally post nothing or are always inactive. CapLlock is an excellent example of this. He signs up for every game and literally never plays.
royalpaladin
Posts: 22,357
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2/25/2012 12:29:34 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 2/25/2012 12:28:07 PM, OberHerr wrote:
Ok, with the whole "summary please"thing.

IT MAKES SENSE.


Sometimes, people, go somewhere, or are not on the computer every second of the game.

And guess what? They want to know whats going on.

Or if they have multiple games going on, plus are debating on the forums and actual debating......

Basically, people don't ask it just to annoy people.

If they have too much on their plate, they should not be playing multiple games of mafia. Other people who could potentially be active are usually missing out on a chance to play.
royalpaladin
Posts: 22,357
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2/25/2012 12:30:37 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
I know that my previous comment seems harsh, but the people who have too much on their plates are not really spending any time playing the games at all. What is the fun of the game if you are not even attempting to figure out what is going on and you are only blindly voting based on someone else's analysis?
OberHerr
Posts: 13,062
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2/25/2012 12:31:40 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 2/25/2012 12:29:34 PM, royalpaladin wrote:
At 2/25/2012 12:28:07 PM, OberHerr wrote:
Ok, with the whole "summary please"thing.

IT MAKES SENSE.


Sometimes, people, go somewhere, or are not on the computer every second of the game.

And guess what? They want to know whats going on.

Or if they have multiple games going on, plus are debating on the forums and actual debating......

Basically, people don't ask it just to annoy people.

If they have too much on their plate, they should not be playing multiple games of mafia. Other people who could potentially be active are usually missing out on a chance to play.

I'm saying that sometimes people can't always be completely active, and if they ask for a VERY simple summary, then whats the big deal?

Also the whole biased summary argument requires only one thing: Some discernment. I mean, I never make my decisions based fully on a summary, thats just stupid.
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Official Enforcer for the DDO Elite(if they existed).

"Cases are anti-town." - FourTrouble

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royalpaladin
Posts: 22,357
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2/25/2012 12:33:43 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 2/25/2012 12:31:40 PM, OberHerr wrote:
At 2/25/2012 12:29:34 PM, royalpaladin wrote:
At 2/25/2012 12:28:07 PM, OberHerr wrote:
Ok, with the whole "summary please"thing.

IT MAKES SENSE.


Sometimes, people, go somewhere, or are not on the computer every second of the game.

And guess what? They want to know whats going on.

Or if they have multiple games going on, plus are debating on the forums and actual debating......

Basically, people don't ask it just to annoy people.

If they have too much on their plate, they should not be playing multiple games of mafia. Other people who could potentially be active are usually missing out on a chance to play.

I'm saying that sometimes people can't always be completely active, and if they ask for a VERY simple summary, then whats the big deal?

When they are active, they can at least read the DP as well.
Also the whole biased summary argument requires only one thing: Some discernment. I mean, I never make my decisions based fully on a summary, thats just stupid.

There are several people I know who only make decisions based on the summary and who has the most votes on them at the moment.
drafterman
Posts: 18,870
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2/25/2012 12:38:01 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 2/25/2012 12:28:07 PM, OberHerr wrote:
Ok, with the whole "summary please"thing.

IT MAKES SENSE.


Sometimes, people, go somewhere, or are not on the computer every second of the game.

And guess what? They want to know whats going on.

Or if they have multiple games going on, plus are debating on the forums and actual debating......

Basically, people don't ask it just to annoy people.

Do you know how the drafterlists were born?

My first game was bluesteels Dexter mafia. As my first game, I wanted to prove myself. For the first couple day phases I would post a summary of the previous Day Phase.

No, not that little piddly drafter list you see today. I posted a summary of everything everyone had said the previous day phase.

This summary eventually evolved into my drafter list. After the horrendous DP3 (lol, it was only about 300 posts, which seems to be typical now) I decided it wasn't feasible to keep doing that. Furthermore, it'd be a tell when I was mafia and didn't do it.

So I reduced it to just claims and unofficial vote counts. I don't know what people did before me, and I don't claim to have invented the concept, but since it has been given the name "drafterlist" I can fairly assume that I at least popularized it or standardized it.

This brings me to my point. I understand this is a game. But when I play, I put effort into it. I pay attention and I play like I'm on a team by compiling those lists so other people can understand what is going on.

So when someone comes in and, with no effort, just demands other people fill them in, it's offensive. No, not always. I can understand it's daunting to come to a 200+ post thread for the first time. But when you have people that consistently do this, it's insulting. They're basically saying that they want other people to play the game for them.

Personally, I don't enable them.
Jordan56
Posts: 1,987
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2/25/2012 12:39:18 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 2/25/2012 12:25:51 PM, Thaddeus wrote:
Maybe we need smaller games. People might be more inclined to post if there is less diffusion of responsibility.

This is probably true. Like for the ????Mafia, I really did not have the time to read through the 500+ posts each day phase and it was a bit complex. It was hard to keep track of everything.
OberHerr
Posts: 13,062
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2/25/2012 12:39:42 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 2/25/2012 12:33:43 PM, royalpaladin wrote:
At 2/25/2012 12:31:40 PM, OberHerr wrote:
At 2/25/2012 12:29:34 PM, royalpaladin wrote:
At 2/25/2012 12:28:07 PM, OberHerr wrote:
Ok, with the whole "summary please"thing.

IT MAKES SENSE.


Sometimes, people, go somewhere, or are not on the computer every second of the game.

And guess what? They want to know whats going on.

Or if they have multiple games going on, plus are debating on the forums and actual debating......

Basically, people don't ask it just to annoy people.

If they have too much on their plate, they should not be playing multiple games of mafia. Other people who could potentially be active are usually missing out on a chance to play.

I'm saying that sometimes people can't always be completely active, and if they ask for a VERY simple summary, then whats the big deal?

When they are active, they can at least read the DP as well.

Oh, really RP? I'm not gonna read through 10-30 pages of mostly pointless WIFOM, when I can jut ask for a quick summary THAT IS NOT HARD TO MAKE.

Also the whole biased summary argument requires only one thing: Some discernment. I mean, I never make my decisions based fully on a summary, thats just stupid.

There are several people I know who only make decisions based on the summary and who has the most votes on them at the moment.

Yes, and those people clearly lack discernment. And, if this whole biased summary is such a big problem, the town should make sure they put out a non-biased one.

And for the bandwagon thing, that happens mainly cause those people are gonna be lynched anyways,
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"Cases are anti-town." - FourTrouble

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Jordan56
Posts: 1,987
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2/25/2012 12:42:58 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
Well, on a side note, the game I am about to mod I believe is very pro town. But since the Mafia can manipulate the town it probably evens out that way. We will see when the game begins.
TUF
Posts: 21,310
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2/25/2012 1:00:30 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
I semi agree with both sides. I don't think it is hard to give a summary out of generosity. But when there is one on every page asking for a summary that's a problem. Just go back a few pages at least to get caught up on what's recent and to see if anyone has already posted a summary. And if you ask for a summary, don't just cast your vote on popular belief, then dis-appear without giving detailed thought. That is soo unfair.
"I've got to go and grab a shirt" ~ Airmax1227
Logic_on_rails
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2/25/2012 2:22:59 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
I think that Mafia games have become much more Mafia sided, but it's not a problem with game mechanics so much as players.

For example, my Death in Mystere game was very finely tuned to be a 3 way fight. After a crazy night phase 1 town had numbers of about 11-2 and still lost. Town completely and utterly squandered the advantage and such. Now, I did put the most skilled players on the Mafia team, but there's a point to which you expect massive advantages to be exploited.

On the summary thing, it's definitely a problem - summaries are asked for way too often and even if players say 'I don't make decisions based on a summary' they should realise that it at least heavily influences your thinking. It's just subconciously planting opinions in your head. I may ask for a brief summary if I miss 300+ posts, but I'll still attempt to read through the posts myself (admittedly at a far increased speed) . If a person asks for a summary when there's less than 200 posts then they should be playing less games and concentrating more. Of course, the volume of content per post varies game to game.

Simplest solution to giving town more wins to reduce the Mafia's ability to subtly deceive (role redirection and such) and only give them blatantly obvious tricks (roleblocking) . The other strong solution is to give the Mafia the worst players or at least a weak Mafia team - that often used to happen. Now we tend to give the Mafia very solid teams.
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F-16_Fighting_Falcon
Posts: 18,324
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2/25/2012 2:46:03 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
Okay, I don't agree that the mafia is overpowered. Seriously. I agree with Bluesteel on this 100%. It is so much more difficult to play as mafia than as town. As town, you don't have to worry about making fake-claims or decieving other players. As a new mod, I didn't realize this and the first game I modded was heavily in favor of town with not only standard roles but symmetrical roles (odd night cop/even night LD) etc. Having too many town power roles makes it almost impossible for mafia to win.

Now, we come to the question: why is mafia always winning? Well, because there are usually about 3-4 active players in the town side. The remaining townies simply pop up at random times, ask for summaries, put their votes on the player with the most votes and disappear. Town's advantage is in numbers and having only 3-4 active townies drastically reduces that advantage.

If town were all active and think logically, it is near impossible for town to lose most games. Yeah, players may not have time to read the Day Phases. If that is the case, then limit yourself to 1-2 games at a time. Mafia is not a mandatory exercise. You don't have to play every single game. Don't sign up for every game but the ones you sign up for, be active in them. Even if you are not active, read the Day Phases. For instance, Logic doesn't post a lot but every time he posts, it is always a detailed analysis as opposed to a demand for a summary.

Also, I agree that people who don't intend to play like CapLlock shouldn't be signing up for games. This is easily fixed however, by quickly replacing the inactives.
UnStupendousMan
Posts: 3,475
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2/25/2012 3:06:31 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
I'm fearing that my Cult game is going to go the way of most of the games now; to the mafia. However, I do plan what Thad recommended (it only has 12 players) and I'll do my best to weed out inactives, especially on the town side.

I agree that most of the pages are WIFOM; it's boring and repetitive. In addition, with the massive amounts of posts per DP, you'd think that we'd need LESS activity.

And I'll try my best to not ask for summaries in the future.
tvellalott
Posts: 10,864
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2/26/2012 5:30:11 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
This is not a matter of mafia being overpowered but town being retarded, plain and simple.
It takes A LOT for mafia to have a victory. If you've got 12 townies to 4 mafia (a very generous ratio), it would takes 8 townie deaths for mafia to win, assuming no mafia is caught. That's 8 night kills, 8 mislynches or any combination of the two adding up to 8.

If we start setting out to give townies victory but fvcking with balancing, we're going in the wrong direction. What we need to do (and we've had some excellent posts already) is figure out where town are going wrong and work to correct that.
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TUF
Posts: 21,310
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2/26/2012 5:32:14 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 2/26/2012 5:30:11 PM, tvellalott wrote:
This is not a matter of mafia being overpowered but town being retarded, plain and simple.
It takes A LOT for mafia to have a victory. If you've got 12 townies to 4 mafia (a very generous ratio), it would takes 8 townie deaths for mafia to win, assuming no mafia is caught. That's 8 night kills, 8 mislynches or any combination of the two adding up to 8.

If we start setting out to give townies victory but fvcking with balancing, we're going in the wrong direction. What we need to do (and we've had some excellent posts already) is figure out where town are going wrong and work to correct that.

I agree with TV. Town losses are due to stupid towns, eager lynches, bandwagoning, and inactivity.
"I've got to go and grab a shirt" ~ Airmax1227
BlackVoid
Posts: 9,170
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2/27/2012 1:55:49 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
I agree with F-16 that the town being inactive really hurts. But I don't think inactivity has actually been a problem, except in the TV game. If anything, everyone's too active. If you leave home for 2 hours, you come back and there's 200 more posts to read.

Mafia have been winning for 2 main reasons:

1. Mafia almost never has weak links. They typically have a couple intermediate players, a good player, and a highly experienced player. There's never more than 1 newb on the mafia, if any. Almost every newb or less than stellar player gets put on the town.

2. Investigators simply aren't hitting the right people. This is partially luck based, but when none of the investigators have results, the town ends up just lynching someone based off post analysis, which usually ends in a mislynch.

Sheer dumb luck helps too. In the TV game, our doctor protected a mafioso from a vig kill, then proceeded to modkill himself. Sometimes crazy things like that can happen, which helps mafia win.
royalpaladin
Posts: 22,357
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2/27/2012 10:38:13 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
Another issue is that nobody reads the Opening Posts for the Day Phases.

They are goldmines, but everyone ignores them and speculates wildly . . .
TUF
Posts: 21,310
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2/27/2012 10:40:13 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 2/27/2012 10:38:13 AM, royalpaladin wrote:
Another issue is that nobody reads the Opening Posts for the Day Phases.

They are goldmines, but everyone ignores them and speculates wildly . . .

I do all the time, actually.
"I've got to go and grab a shirt" ~ Airmax1227