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????? Mafia - Endgame

bluesteel
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2/29/2012 6:09:25 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
And the masked man is revealed to be . . . none other than bluesteel himself!

????? = Mod Intervention, Man vs. Mod

Conclusion: MAFIA WINS!
1. Drafterman - Random Role - I will assign you a random role each NP. You win with the town.
2. royalpaladin – Lie Detector. Each NP, you can check the veracity of one statement. You win with the town.
3. kyro90 – Role Cop. Each NP, investigate one person to learn his/her role. You win with the town.
4. OberHerr - MAFIA
5. BlackVoid – Miller. You appear guilty upon investigation. You win with the town.
6. TUF - MAFIA
7. Mestari – Vanilla. You win with the town. [death miller]
8. Viper-King – Vanilla townie.
9. LK – Miller. You appear guilty upon investigation. You win with the town.
10. F-16 – Lyncher. You win if and only if you get Mestari lynched.
11. Medic - MAFIA
12. Lickdafoot - MAFIA
13. USM – Cop. Each NP, investigate one person's affiliation. You win with the town.
14. Jordan56 – Vanilla townie.
15. Thaddeus – Doctor. Each NP, choose one target to try to protect. You win with the town.
16. Ren – Tracker. Each NP, pick one target and see everyone who that target visits. You win with the town.
17. Caps - Accountant – you have a one shot power to be told ("count") how many mafiosos participated in a lynch. You can ask me to tell you this information whenever you like. You win with the town.
18. logic on rails – Watcher. Each NP, pick one target and see everyone who visits that target. You win with the town.

Okay, you guys are inevitably going to be somewhat upset over this, but remember, it is a concept game. It didn't go precisely as I had planned.

Here was my INITIAL setup:

There were a ton of townies and 4 mafia goons.

The Mafia got to write the OP's for each day phase.

All of your roles had a twist (some only on odd NP's):

Random Role – I will assign you a random role each NP (actually mafia assigning it)
[note: a game with multiple townies getting their roles assigned my mafia could be fun]
Paranoid lie detector – sees every statement as a lie
Insane role cop – sees all townies as mafia roles and all mafia as townie roles
Two millers to cc each other
Death Miller = mestari
Lyncher – must get targeted person – death miller - lynched (third party)
Naïve cop [USM] – sees all people as innocent
Inverted doctor – if town, kills target rather than saving him; if mafia, protects target
Paranoid watcher – the person they are watching is automatically role blocked (and informed of this) and the watcher sees a random townie (RNG) visiting the target.
Insane tracker –if target is townie, always sees the person visit the NK target; if mafia, sees the person visit no one

While I was originally crafting this game, I knew I wanted it to be about mod intervention on behalf of the mafia, but wasn't sure how to implement that. I originally wanted to intervene as little as possible, so originally I was only going to let the mafia write the OP's, assign drafterman's roles, and let the weird roles confuse town, but town figured out the roles were useless much quicker than anticipated and mafia didn't use the OP's to their full advantage (they ended up making it obvious that if the OP's were fake, their claims were fake too). Before the game started, I thought mafia would just claim completely useless flavored versions of JOAT, PGO, etc, and then use the OP's to falsely confirm a townie and then make clear the OP's were fake so that townie got lynched.

When it became clear that the weird roles hadn't really hampered town that much, I began intervening in other ways. When F-16 replaced VK, I made him a lyncher again instead of a vanilla. I started posting random roles for the dead people (I had planned to do this when the mafiosos died from the beginning). And I let TUF play a townie role pro-mafia for a day phase.

Here's a role idea based on this concept: mind controller/death godfather – you appear as a townie role upon death and at that point, you can come in as a replacement for random townies and play their roles pro-mafia for a DP.

I've lost track of all the ways I intervened, honestly.

Go re-read the DP6 OP. I thought I made it really obvious. Should be interesting for you to view it with hindsight.

Feel free to discuss what happened and I'll answer any questions.

The author of most of the OP's was TUF.
You can't reason someone out of a position they didn't reason themselves into - Jonathan Swift (paraphrase)
F-16_Fighting_Falcon
Posts: 18,324
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2/29/2012 6:15:16 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
I feel a little let down. I don't know Bluesteel. How could town have won? I never complain if I feel that there was something I could have figured out and could have won this game for town. But right now, I really don't know what.

It'll make me feel better if you tell me what analysis the town could have used to win the game. Like if you were town, what would you have done?
royalpaladin
Posts: 22,357
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2/29/2012 6:16:45 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
Also, making me die along with Drafter was kind of unfair. That was basically a means to get the mafia at least one, and at most two, mislynches.

F_16, I told you that I was town.
F-16_Fighting_Falcon
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2/29/2012 6:17:22 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 2/29/2012 6:16:45 PM, royalpaladin wrote:
Also, making me die along with Drafter was kind of unfair. That was basically a means to get the mafia at least one, and at most two, mislynches.

F_16, I told you that I was town.

Yeah, sorry. But I was defending you, Royal. I was mostly going for LDF and Medic.
TUF
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2/29/2012 6:17:49 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 2/29/2012 6:15:54 PM, F-16_Fighting_Falcon wrote:
I kept gunning for LDF and Medic all game and no one listened. FML

Poor F-16. You were a great townie, but no one listened. Getting any flashbacks from death in mystere?
"I've got to go and grab a shirt" ~ Airmax1227
bluesteel
Posts: 12,301
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2/29/2012 6:20:12 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 2/29/2012 6:15:54 PM, F-16_Fighting_Falcon wrote:
I kept gunning for LDF and Medic all game and no one listened. FML

Yeah, you were close to winning the entire game.

It took really only one deduction to win the game: that you couldn't trust anything the mod told you. At that point, you'd look to the OP's and wonder why they confirm so many cops.

It's fair to be upset with this game. I wasn't happy with the concept as early as DP2. It broke down quickly. The idea itself wasn't that bad, but my execution wasn't great. I put too many flavored roles in all at once.

But hey, on the flipside, what could I do? I wanted to post an OP heavily hinting that all the OP's were fake, but medic and LDF tied my hands with that one with their cop claims.

I've decided not to do concept games anymore. My conclusion from this and others is that most people would prefer a straight up game, executed well.
You can't reason someone out of a position they didn't reason themselves into - Jonathan Swift (paraphrase)
drafterman
Posts: 18,870
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2/29/2012 6:29:57 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
Sorry. But the entire point of this game was to make town lose, apparently. That doesn't sit well with me.

I don't even care enough to critique this game.
F-16_Fighting_Falcon
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2/29/2012 6:31:51 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 2/29/2012 6:29:57 PM, drafterman wrote:
Sorry. But the entire point of this game was to make town lose, apparently. That doesn't sit well with me.

I don't even care enough to critique this game.

I'm sorry. I am a bit upset too but it wasn't THAT bad. LDF and Medic claimed cops and it was so frustrating trying to get everyone to figure out that there were fake cops. There were FIVE people who claimed investigative roles and three cops. Yet, all you wanted to do was lynch me over and over again.
TUF
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2/29/2012 6:34:36 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 2/29/2012 6:29:57 PM, drafterman wrote:
Sorry. But the entire point of this game was to make town lose, apparently. That doesn't sit well with me.

I don't even care enough to critique this game.

If you guys lynched LDF/medic that last DP you would have won...
"I've got to go and grab a shirt" ~ Airmax1227
Logic_on_rails
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2/29/2012 6:34:51 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
I said it in one of my last 2 posts - the OPs weren't to be trusted! Just like my Death in Mystere game!

More later, but this game was heavily anti-town. It's amazing that we even got close to winning. In hindsight my particular suspcions weren't great, but I picked up on some mechanics well.

More comments later.
"Tis not in mortals to command success
But we"ll do more, Sempronius, we"ll deserve it
bluesteel
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2/29/2012 6:37:27 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 2/29/2012 6:29:57 PM, drafterman wrote:
Sorry. But the entire point of this game was to make town lose, apparently. That doesn't sit well with me.

I don't even care enough to critique this game.

No, really the point of the game was to get people to stop obsessing over roles and trust their instincts. There were only 4 mafia among 18 town.

That said, this game didn't turn out very well. I'll admit that.
You can't reason someone out of a position they didn't reason themselves into - Jonathan Swift (paraphrase)
F-16_Fighting_Falcon
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2/29/2012 6:37:50 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 2/29/2012 6:34:36 PM, TUF wrote:
At 2/29/2012 6:29:57 PM, drafterman wrote:
Sorry. But the entire point of this game was to make town lose, apparently. That doesn't sit well with me.

I don't even care enough to critique this game.

If you guys lynched LDF/medic that last DP you would have won...

Yeah, but I got a "cop" role and Bluesteel said the roles were switched. Why would I have lynched LDF at that point TUF? Unless I was an idiot? I suspected Medic all along but do you really think if you or ANYONE got a "cop" role and the mod told you the roles were switched, you would have lynched that person?

If it wasn't for that, yeah, I would have gone after Medic/LDF2.
drafterman
Posts: 18,870
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2/29/2012 6:37:59 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 2/29/2012 6:31:51 PM, F-16_Fighting_Falcon wrote:
At 2/29/2012 6:29:57 PM, drafterman wrote:
Sorry. But the entire point of this game was to make town lose, apparently. That doesn't sit well with me.

I don't even care enough to critique this game.

I'm sorry. I am a bit upset too but it wasn't THAT bad. LDF and Medic claimed cops and it was so frustrating trying to get everyone to figure out that there were fake cops. There were FIVE people who claimed investigative roles and three cops. Yet, all you wanted to do was lynch me over and over again.

Here's the thing. It wasn't a game. It wasn't even a concept game. It was an experiment with absolutely no intention of allowing Town to even coming close to winning. I'm sure the mafia had an enjoyable time and I was at first but, like you, those last couple DPs was basically just "Ugh, let's get this game over." And to see this. No, sorry, but no.

I don't mind concept games. And I don't care if a game is imbalanced. But neither are the case here. It was just: make town lose. And that's it.
bluesteel
Posts: 12,301
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2/29/2012 6:38:14 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
I hope it generates some thoughts on new roles and concepts; I pushed the boundaries on just about everything. So that's all I can really hope for; that my testing yields some good results for other mods.
You can't reason someone out of a position they didn't reason themselves into - Jonathan Swift (paraphrase)
drafterman
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2/29/2012 6:39:58 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 2/29/2012 6:38:14 PM, bluesteel wrote:
I hope it generates some thoughts on new roles and concepts; I pushed the boundaries on just about everything. So that's all I can really hope for; that my testing yields some good results for other mods.

It was basically a smorgasbord of what NOT to do in any game with the addition of being completely unnecessary because no one pulls any of these tricks anyway.
bluesteel
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2/29/2012 6:40:59 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
Fair enough, I accept your anger drafter.

I mod-killed a ton of people to make it sudden death b/c it wasn't fun for me anymore either at the end.
You can't reason someone out of a position they didn't reason themselves into - Jonathan Swift (paraphrase)
F-16_Fighting_Falcon
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2/29/2012 6:41:30 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 2/29/2012 6:37:59 PM, drafterman wrote:
At 2/29/2012 6:31:51 PM, F-16_Fighting_Falcon wrote:
At 2/29/2012 6:29:57 PM, drafterman wrote:
Sorry. But the entire point of this game was to make town lose, apparently. That doesn't sit well with me.

I don't even care enough to critique this game.

I'm sorry. I am a bit upset too but it wasn't THAT bad. LDF and Medic claimed cops and it was so frustrating trying to get everyone to figure out that there were fake cops. There were FIVE people who claimed investigative roles and three cops. Yet, all you wanted to do was lynch me over and over again.

Here's the thing. It wasn't a game. It wasn't even a concept game. It was an experiment with absolutely no intention of allowing Town to even coming close to winning. I'm sure the mafia had an enjoyable time and I was at first but, like you, those last couple DPs was basically just "Ugh, let's get this game over." And to see this. No, sorry, but no.

I don't mind concept games. And I don't care if a game is imbalanced. But neither are the case here. It was just: make town lose. And that's it.

I get what you are saying. But answer me this: Did you believe Medic and LDF were real cops? It was obvious that AT LEAST one of them had to be fake if not both. Like, tell me why you never even considered that Medic and LDF were faking it but rather went off of "Ren and F-16 are mafia." I seriously thought you were mafia when Ren came out with those results but I let it go.
TUF
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2/29/2012 6:41:45 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 2/29/2012 6:39:58 PM, drafterman wrote:
At 2/29/2012 6:38:14 PM, bluesteel wrote:
I hope it generates some thoughts on new roles and concepts; I pushed the boundaries on just about everything. So that's all I can really hope for; that my testing yields some good results for other mods.

It was basically a smorgasbord of what NOT to do in any game with the addition of being completely unnecessary because no one pulls any of these tricks anyway.

Over analyzing a bit drafter. Town almost won.
"I've got to go and grab a shirt" ~ Airmax1227
drafterman
Posts: 18,870
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2/29/2012 6:43:15 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 2/29/2012 6:37:27 PM, bluesteel wrote:
At 2/29/2012 6:29:57 PM, drafterman wrote:
Sorry. But the entire point of this game was to make town lose, apparently. That doesn't sit well with me.

I don't even care enough to critique this game.

No, really the point of the game was to get people to stop obsessing over roles and trust their instincts. There were only 4 mafia among 18 town.

That said, this game didn't turn out very well. I'll admit that.

Bullsh1t. Complete and utter bullsh1t.

"Okay guys, this concept game didn't work out exactly as I'd hoped. Town is in a dire situation and it is time to reveal. There is no mafia – only 3rd parties and death millers. Keep that in mind moving forward."

I was totally psyched that I nailed TUF N1. And when I heard that there wasn't any mafia, well that took the wind out of my sails because it forced me to really reconsider whether or not I had good instincts. So you can't say the goal was to get people to "trust their instincts" when you deliberately put in, or allow, stuff like that which causes us to question our instincts.

Fvcking with how people flip is only going to make people question their instincts, not follow them. You can't have your cake and eat it to. When you feel that someone is scum 100% and they flip town, you don't go "Oh, the mod must be messing with us" you go "Oh, sh1t, I read that situation all wrong."

So no. I don't buy that excuse. Try again.
drafterman
Posts: 18,870
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2/29/2012 6:46:49 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 2/29/2012 6:41:30 PM, F-16_Fighting_Falcon wrote:
At 2/29/2012 6:37:59 PM, drafterman wrote:
At 2/29/2012 6:31:51 PM, F-16_Fighting_Falcon wrote:
At 2/29/2012 6:29:57 PM, drafterman wrote:
Sorry. But the entire point of this game was to make town lose, apparently. That doesn't sit well with me.

I don't even care enough to critique this game.

I'm sorry. I am a bit upset too but it wasn't THAT bad. LDF and Medic claimed cops and it was so frustrating trying to get everyone to figure out that there were fake cops. There were FIVE people who claimed investigative roles and three cops. Yet, all you wanted to do was lynch me over and over again.

Here's the thing. It wasn't a game. It wasn't even a concept game. It was an experiment with absolutely no intention of allowing Town to even coming close to winning. I'm sure the mafia had an enjoyable time and I was at first but, like you, those last couple DPs was basically just "Ugh, let's get this game over." And to see this. No, sorry, but no.

I don't mind concept games. And I don't care if a game is imbalanced. But neither are the case here. It was just: make town lose. And that's it.

I get what you are saying. But answer me this: Did you believe Medic and LDF were real cops? It was obvious that AT LEAST one of them had to be fake if not both. Like, tell me why you never even considered that Medic and LDF were faking it but rather went off of "Ren and F-16 are mafia." I seriously thought you were mafia when Ren came out with those results but I let it go.

I did not believe that LDF was cop; I believed Medic was naive, perhaps. However, everyone was accepting and pushing the multiple role nonsense that I didn't think I could ever muster support to get her lynched. What you said about convenience is 100% true, but it's not a bad thing. You fight the battles you think you can win.

You have to realize that those of us who weren't counter claimed (Royal and me, mainly) had a tough time the first few phases because we were deliberately singled out for not having doubles of our roles.

So not only did we have to try and find scum, but we had to keep defending ourselves as townie. The ONLY reason I went after royal was because I had to, not because I thought she was scum.

So, when I get a role that MAKES me go after someone regardless of my instincts you can't say it's about instincts and not about the roles.
TUF
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2/29/2012 6:47:12 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 2/29/2012 6:43:15 PM, drafterman wrote:
At 2/29/2012 6:37:27 PM, bluesteel wrote:
At 2/29/2012 6:29:57 PM, drafterman wrote:
Sorry. But the entire point of this game was to make town lose, apparently. That doesn't sit well with me.

I don't even care enough to critique this game.

No, really the point of the game was to get people to stop obsessing over roles and trust their instincts. There were only 4 mafia among 18 town.

That said, this game didn't turn out very well. I'll admit that.

Bullsh1t. Complete and utter bullsh1t.

"Okay guys, this concept game didn't work out exactly as I'd hoped. Town is in a dire situation and it is time to reveal. There is no mafia – only 3rd parties and death millers. Keep that in mind moving forward."

I was totally psyched that I nailed TUF N1. And when I heard that there wasn't any mafia, well that took the wind out of my sails because it forced me to really reconsider whether or not I had good instincts. So you can't say the goal was to get people to "trust their instincts" when you deliberately put in, or allow, stuff like that which causes us to question our instincts.

Fvcking with how people flip is only going to make people question their instincts, not follow them. You can't have your cake and eat it to. When you feel that someone is scum 100% and they flip town, you don't go "Oh, the mod must be messing with us" you go "Oh, sh1t, I read that situation all wrong."

So no. I don't buy that excuse. Try again.

I wrote that drafter. People take OP's so seriously, and that's how we won.
"I've got to go and grab a shirt" ~ Airmax1227
F-16_Fighting_Falcon
Posts: 18,324
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2/29/2012 6:48:11 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
So, here is what we did:

NP1: No lynch
NP2: No lynch
NP3: Lynch Ober (mafia)
NP4: Lynch Drafterman1 (town)
NP5: Lynch F-16 (third party)
NP6: Lynch Drafterman2 (town)

So, basically it allowed us two mislynches even though the vig targeted correctly. Drafterman1 was doomed because he had to lynch Royal or die. I don't know. I am really torn on whether we could have won this or whether it was a lost cause. I am somewhere in between.
drafterman
Posts: 18,870
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2/29/2012 6:49:37 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 2/29/2012 6:41:45 PM, TUF wrote:
At 2/29/2012 6:39:58 PM, drafterman wrote:
At 2/29/2012 6:38:14 PM, bluesteel wrote:
I hope it generates some thoughts on new roles and concepts; I pushed the boundaries on just about everything. So that's all I can really hope for; that my testing yields some good results for other mods.

It was basically a smorgasbord of what NOT to do in any game with the addition of being completely unnecessary because no one pulls any of these tricks anyway.

Over analyzing a bit drafter. Town almost won.

You really don't have a say here. You were mafia. You got to have fun dicking with us. But read the OP in this thread again - town was never going to win. Once BS saw that we weren't hampered enough, he stepped it up. This wasn't about ever letting town having a chance to win. So regardless of whatever the ratios where, there wasn't an option of town winning. And I don't care if BS himself comes in and says that such-and-such actions would have resulted in a town win because I won't believe it.
royalpaladin
Posts: 22,357
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2/29/2012 6:50:49 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 2/29/2012 6:48:11 PM, F-16_Fighting_Falcon wrote:
So, here is what we did:

NP1: No lynch
NP2: No lynch
NP3: Lynch Ober (mafia)
NP4: Lynch Drafterman1 (town)
NP5: Lynch F-16 (third party)
NP6: Lynch Drafterman2 (town)

So, basically it allowed us two mislynches even though the vig targeted correctly. Drafterman1 was doomed because he had to lynch Royal or die. I don't know. I am really torn on whether we could have won this or whether it was a lost cause. I am somewhere in between.

Do not forget that I got modkilled for no reason at all.
drafterman
Posts: 18,870
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2/29/2012 6:51:39 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 2/29/2012 6:47:12 PM, TUF wrote:
At 2/29/2012 6:43:15 PM, drafterman wrote:
At 2/29/2012 6:37:27 PM, bluesteel wrote:
At 2/29/2012 6:29:57 PM, drafterman wrote:
Sorry. But the entire point of this game was to make town lose, apparently. That doesn't sit well with me.

I don't even care enough to critique this game.

No, really the point of the game was to get people to stop obsessing over roles and trust their instincts. There were only 4 mafia among 18 town.

That said, this game didn't turn out very well. I'll admit that.

Bullsh1t. Complete and utter bullsh1t.

"Okay guys, this concept game didn't work out exactly as I'd hoped. Town is in a dire situation and it is time to reveal. There is no mafia – only 3rd parties and death millers. Keep that in mind moving forward."

I was totally psyched that I nailed TUF N1. And when I heard that there wasn't any mafia, well that took the wind out of my sails because it forced me to really reconsider whether or not I had good instincts. So you can't say the goal was to get people to "trust their instincts" when you deliberately put in, or allow, stuff like that which causes us to question our instincts.

Fvcking with how people flip is only going to make people question their instincts, not follow them. You can't have your cake and eat it to. When you feel that someone is scum 100% and they flip town, you don't go "Oh, the mod must be messing with us" you go "Oh, sh1t, I read that situation all wrong."

So no. I don't buy that excuse. Try again.


I wrote that drafter. People take OP's so seriously, and that's how we won.

You're SUPPOSED to take OPs seriously. You're SUPPOSED to take EVERYTHING written by the mod seriously. You're supposed to be able to trust the mod. If you can't trust the mod, there is no point in playing. When mods include information in OPs that imbalance the game, that is the MOD'S fault, not the player's fault for using or abusing that information.

To say, "Oh, townies look too much into the OP, let's exploit that" is fine if the mod is doing it in a controlled manner. But giving the OPs over to one side is totally unacceptable.
drafterman
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2/29/2012 6:52:09 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 2/29/2012 6:50:49 PM, royalpaladin wrote:
At 2/29/2012 6:48:11 PM, F-16_Fighting_Falcon wrote:
So, here is what we did:

NP1: No lynch
NP2: No lynch
NP3: Lynch Ober (mafia)
NP4: Lynch Drafterman1 (town)
NP5: Lynch F-16 (third party)
NP6: Lynch Drafterman2 (town)

So, basically it allowed us two mislynches even though the vig targeted correctly. Drafterman1 was doomed because he had to lynch Royal or die. I don't know. I am really torn on whether we could have won this or whether it was a lost cause. I am somewhere in between.

Do not forget that I got modkilled for no reason at all.

That was part of my role, royal.