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Red/Black Game

TUF
Posts: 21,309
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3/10/2012 2:34:00 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
This is a very fun game that I have played before in party groups.
The way this game works, is there is 2 teams. Let's start out with about 6 people on each time. I will put both groups of people in a PM. This game will require intellectual discussion with your teamates about the motives of the other team. Once all votes are casted, I will post the corrent score in this thread. There will be a total of 6 rounds. The goal is to score as many points as possible to win.

On each turn, each group decides votes on whether to choose red or black. After a majority of votes is cast (4/6) then your choice is submitted. Once both teams have selected their color, the round ends and the current score goes up. Scoring is as follows:

If both choose black, each team scores 50.
If exactly one team chooses red, that team scores 100 and all other teams score 0.
If more than one team chooses red, all teams score 0.

HOW TO WIN: Score as many points as possible.

I want to 12 people to sign up, then I will put you in teams and your PM's, and you can start discussion!

Each player in the PM's will write Vote Black or Vote Red. Votes can be changed up until a majority vote has been cast.

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"I've got to go and grab a shirt" ~ Airmax1227
TUF
Posts: 21,309
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3/10/2012 2:43:06 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 3/10/2012 2:42:05 PM, Thaddeus wrote:
So team prisoners dilemma?

I'm sorry?
"I've got to go and grab a shirt" ~ Airmax1227
Thaddeus
Posts: 6,985
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3/10/2012 2:46:26 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 3/10/2012 2:43:06 PM, TUF wrote:
At 3/10/2012 2:42:05 PM, Thaddeus wrote:
So team prisoners dilemma?

I'm sorry?

Game theory, ma man, or WIFOM for mafia players.
TUF
Posts: 21,309
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3/10/2012 2:47:12 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 3/10/2012 2:46:26 PM, Thaddeus wrote:
At 3/10/2012 2:43:06 PM, TUF wrote:
At 3/10/2012 2:42:05 PM, Thaddeus wrote:
So team prisoners dilemma?

I'm sorry?

Game theory, ma man, or WIFOM for mafia players.

Yeah should be fun. Wanna play?
"I've got to go and grab a shirt" ~ Airmax1227
Lordknukle
Posts: 12,788
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3/10/2012 3:29:37 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
1. Jordan56
2. The ever-present Zaradi
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9. LK
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"Easy is the descent to Avernus, for the door to the Underworld lies upon both day and night. But to retrace your steps and return to the breezes above- that's the task, that's the toil."
drafterman
Posts: 18,870
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3/10/2012 3:33:52 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
Prisoner's Dilemma ISN'T WIFOM since the reasoning process terminates. It's ALWAYS best to "defect"; in the context of this game choosing red.
TUF
Posts: 21,309
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3/10/2012 3:41:38 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 3/10/2012 3:33:52 PM, drafterman wrote:
Prisoner's Dilemma ISN'T WIFOM since the reasoning process terminates. It's ALWAYS best to "defect"; in the context of this game choosing red.

Want to play?
"I've got to go and grab a shirt" ~ Airmax1227
drafterman
Posts: 18,870
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3/10/2012 3:43:48 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 3/10/2012 3:41:38 PM, TUF wrote:
At 3/10/2012 3:33:52 PM, drafterman wrote:
Prisoner's Dilemma ISN'T WIFOM since the reasoning process terminates. It's ALWAYS best to "defect"; in the context of this game choosing red.

Want to play?

Since it's always better to choose red, I don't see how the game could possibly terminate with a winner except due to irrational behavior or pure chance.
Logic_on_rails
Posts: 2,445
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3/10/2012 3:45:08 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
This game is broken - there's a winning strategy. I'd never lose given the values allocated to each colour. Sure, nobody would get any points, but I wouldn't lose.
"Tis not in mortals to command success
But we"ll do more, Sempronius, we"ll deserve it
Lordknukle
Posts: 12,788
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3/10/2012 3:47:37 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
I'm actually going to withdraw. To win, or to not let your opponents win, you must simply pick the colour red. This game doesn't work with two colours.
"Easy is the descent to Avernus, for the door to the Underworld lies upon both day and night. But to retrace your steps and return to the breezes above- that's the task, that's the toil."
Lordknukle
Posts: 12,788
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3/10/2012 3:47:49 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
1. Jordan56
2. The ever-present Zaradi
3.
4.
5.
6.
7.
8.
9.
10.
11.
12.
"Easy is the descent to Avernus, for the door to the Underworld lies upon both day and night. But to retrace your steps and return to the breezes above- that's the task, that's the toil."
TUF
Posts: 21,309
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3/10/2012 3:54:52 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
If both players choose red throughout the entire game, then the score will always be 0. Thus the goal of the game (to achieve the most points) will be defeated. So One may choose red in hopes of the other person choosing black. Or both may choose black, and both will accrue points as a fail safe. There is a lot of things that can happen to determine the points in this game.
"I've got to go and grab a shirt" ~ Airmax1227
drafterman
Posts: 18,870
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3/10/2012 4:00:31 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 3/10/2012 3:54:52 PM, TUF wrote:
If both players choose red throughout the entire game, then the score will always be 0. Thus the goal of the game (to achieve the most points) will be defeated. So One may choose red in hopes of the other person choosing black. Or both may choose black, and both will accrue points as a fail safe. There is a lot of things that can happen to determine the points in this game.

If the other team chooses black, our team should choose red.
If the other team chooses red, our team should choose red.

So no matter what, it's in each teams' interest to choose red. Only hope that the other team will irratioally choose black is the way to break the stalemate.
Logic_on_rails
Posts: 2,445
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3/10/2012 4:02:44 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 3/10/2012 3:54:52 PM, TUF wrote:
If both players choose red throughout the entire game, then the score will always be 0. Thus the goal of the game (to achieve the most points) will be defeated. So One may choose red in hopes of the other person choosing black. Or both may choose black, and both will accrue points as a fail safe. There is a lot of things that can happen to determine the points in this game.

Unless we win interdependently of the other team then who cares if we get 0? If it's A vs. B and you're A then you don't want to lose to A. The mechanics of 'winning' prevent a result that would overall (A + B) be superior.
"Tis not in mortals to command success
But we"ll do more, Sempronius, we"ll deserve it
TUF
Posts: 21,309
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3/10/2012 4:03:53 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 3/10/2012 4:00:31 PM, drafterman wrote:
At 3/10/2012 3:54:52 PM, TUF wrote:
If both players choose red throughout the entire game, then the score will always be 0. Thus the goal of the game (to achieve the most points) will be defeated. So One may choose red in hopes of the other person choosing black. Or both may choose black, and both will accrue points as a fail safe. There is a lot of things that can happen to determine the points in this game.

If the other team chooses black, our team should choose red.
If the other team chooses red, our team should choose red.

So no matter what, it's in each teams' interest to choose red. Only hope that the other team will irratioally choose black is the way to break the stalemate.

But if both teams have that logic, then neither team will accrue points. A viable tactic would to be to choose black to accrue points. Then if a team wanted to choose red unexpectantly, they can gain points. The whole point is to try and think what decision your opponent will make and act accordingly. Both players may simultaneously decide to choose red, and then afterwards choose black as a result of gaining no points.

There is so many way a team can win.
"I've got to go and grab a shirt" ~ Airmax1227
TUF
Posts: 21,309
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3/10/2012 4:05:24 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 3/10/2012 4:02:44 PM, Logic_on_rails wrote:
At 3/10/2012 3:54:52 PM, TUF wrote:
If both players choose red throughout the entire game, then the score will always be 0. Thus the goal of the game (to achieve the most points) will be defeated. So One may choose red in hopes of the other person choosing black. Or both may choose black, and both will accrue points as a fail safe. There is a lot of things that can happen to determine the points in this game.

Unless we win interdependently of the other team then who cares if we get 0? If it's A vs. B and you're A then you don't want to lose to A. The mechanics of 'winning' prevent a result that would overall (A + B) be superior.

Team A can win independently of team B.
"I've got to go and grab a shirt" ~ Airmax1227
Logic_on_rails
Posts: 2,445
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3/10/2012 4:07:53 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 3/10/2012 4:05:24 PM, TUF wrote:

Team A can win independently of team B.

In that case both teams choose black every round. I don't see the point if both teams win independently.

The values of 0, 50 and 100 simplify this game greatly. If say, 0, 10 and 30 were chosen then it might be a little entertaining.
"Tis not in mortals to command success
But we"ll do more, Sempronius, we"ll deserve it
TUF
Posts: 21,309
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3/10/2012 4:09:41 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 3/10/2012 4:07:53 PM, Logic_on_rails wrote:
At 3/10/2012 4:05:24 PM, TUF wrote:

Team A can win independently of team B.

In that case both teams choose black every round. I don't see the point if both teams win independently.

Well that's the point of the game. The ideal win condition is that both teams choose black every time. But teams can also choose to win independently from each other by choosing red.

The values of 0, 50 and 100 simplify this game greatly. If say, 0, 10 and 30 were chosen then it might be a little entertaining.

Haven't tried it that way before.
"I've got to go and grab a shirt" ~ Airmax1227
Logic_on_rails
Posts: 2,445
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3/10/2012 4:15:30 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 3/10/2012 4:09:41 PM, TUF wrote:
At 3/10/2012 4:07:53 PM, Logic_on_rails wrote:
At 3/10/2012 4:05:24 PM, TUF wrote:

Team A can win independently of team B.

In that case both teams choose black every round. I don't see the point if both teams win independently.

Well that's the point of the game. The ideal win condition is that both teams choose black every time. But teams can also choose to win independently from each other by choosing red.

Let's be plain about this - define 'win' in the context of this game. Is it a set number of points that must be achieved or A defeats B? At this stage it's a set number of points, and I'd like to hear that number.
"Tis not in mortals to command success
But we"ll do more, Sempronius, we"ll deserve it
drafterman
Posts: 18,870
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3/10/2012 4:51:23 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 3/10/2012 4:03:53 PM, TUF wrote:
At 3/10/2012 4:00:31 PM, drafterman wrote:
At 3/10/2012 3:54:52 PM, TUF wrote:
If both players choose red throughout the entire game, then the score will always be 0. Thus the goal of the game (to achieve the most points) will be defeated. So One may choose red in hopes of the other person choosing black. Or both may choose black, and both will accrue points as a fail safe. There is a lot of things that can happen to determine the points in this game.

If the other team chooses black, our team should choose red.
If the other team chooses red, our team should choose red.

So no matter what, it's in each teams' interest to choose red. Only hope that the other team will irratioally choose black is the way to break the stalemate.

But if both teams have that logic, then neither team will accrue points. A viable tactic would to be to choose black to accrue points.

Nope, because the other team will choose red. Also, what does it matter if both teams acrue the same number of points?

Then if a team wanted to choose red unexpectantly, they can gain points. The whole point is to try and think what decision your opponent will make and act accordingly. Both players may simultaneously decide to choose red, and then afterwards choose black as a result of gaining no points.

There is so many way a team can win.

Only if one side acts less than optimally.

Your suggesting that a team occasionally choose black, but it is never in a team's best interest to do so: you're wagering both teams getting 50 points against the other team getting 100 points. That's a bad bet.
drafterman
Posts: 18,870
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3/10/2012 6:15:12 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
Sorry if I rained on your parade here a bit but that's simply how it is. I can understand how this works as a party game because your average joe probably doesn't care two wits about the Prisoner's Dilemma (PD).

But, when you think about it, there really is not individual benefit to ever choosing black. You've turned the PD into a competition, so both teams getting 50 points is the same as both teams getting no points; neither is any closer or further to/from winning.

The original PD wasn't a zero-sum game putting two people in competition with each other; they were in competition with a third party.

Here is a classic depiction of PD:

"Two men are arrested, but the police do not possess enough information for a conviction. Following the separation of the two men, the police offer both a similar deal—if one testifies against his partner (defects/betrays), and the other remains silent (cooperates/assists), the betrayer goes free and the cooperator receives the full one-year sentence. If both remain silent, both are sentenced to only one month in jail for a minor charge. If each 'rats out' the other, each receives a three-month sentence. Each prisoner must choose either to betray or remain silent; the decision of each is kept quiet. What should they do?"

Here, clearly each individual only cares about his own sentence. He doesn't care if the other player gets a better or worse sentence than his own; he simply wants to minimize his own sentence. Hence the dilemma, in seeking out to minimize his loss, they collectively receive a less than optimal solution.

Your game eliminates that element because it's a competition between teams. What do I care what my absolute score is? All I should care about is my score relative to my opponents.

In short, in the true PD I don't care about the other "player" meaning cooperation is still on the table, and this is the case when you replay PD over and over again.

But the design of this game makes me "care" about the other player, so it isn't just about maximizing my team's points, but making sure I get more points than my opponent.