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Discussion about role justification

medic0506
Posts: 13,450
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3/12/2012 1:27:40 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
I'd like to get the community's opinion on the issue of role justification. Even when I'm town, I hate when people ask, "What is the justification for your role??". I see it as being inherently unfair to non-townies, as well as townies.

I believe that it's unfair to non-townies because, to me, demanding this level of detail from a player's role pm circumvents the spirit of the no c/p rule. I see this in the same way that I see the letter test that a couple people did to compare role pm's. There is no way for non-townies to know the level of detail, or if there even is any detail given in townie pm's, for justifying their role. That makes it inherently unfair to demand that it be given out.

It's unfair to townies because it is a distractor. I don't care how good you are, when it comes to making a decision on the justification for someone's role, you are doing nothing more than just guessing, and most times you're going to be wrong. We cannot outguess the mods no matter how good we are, or how new the mod is. I understand that when this is done, we're starving for information of any kind, but most times our evaluation of that kind of info is going to be flawed.

We use scenarios in EMS alot for training purposes and I find them very valuable so let's set one up:

You're in DP 4 with 10 active players, and no good leads. One mafioso has been lynched, and there has been one kill each previous night but two last night, with a day kill during DP 2. Player A has claimed Ghandi, and was tracked the previous np. He visited player B, who ended up dead and confirmed town. When confronted, Ghandi claims to have x-shot vig ability with the justification that he would be allowed to bring justice to the world because his love for peace would stop anyone from suspecting that he is a killer. He claims to have killed Player B because he thought he was acting the most scummy, and denies doing the day kill. The tracker report was posted on page one, and Kyro pops in at the top of page two to say hi and ask for a summary.

What would you do in this situation, and why??
BlackVoid
Posts: 9,170
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3/12/2012 1:34:48 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
I'd lynch Ghandi because he was tracked to the dead body. Role justifications aren't a gold mine. To me they're just a little something extra to ask for if you need more info to go on.

I don't think its unfair by any means. Role justifications can only be asked for if they claimed a role in the first place. Role claims are only asked for on DP2 or later, when people have already died. In which case the mafia can look at the dead role PM's and see how close the roles relate to the character. Its not unfair for mafia.

I don't see how it loopholes the no c/p rule. A justification can easily be faked and doesn't rely on getting certain letters and words in your role PM right. All it does is ensure that mafia have to think about their fake claims a bit more.

Its almost never a problem for mafia. All the mafiosos in the TV game had solid justifications. I know Blackhawk was lynched in HP because of a poor one, but thats a minority. Him and F-16 are the only ones I've seen lynched based off of it.
BlackVoid
Posts: 9,170
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3/12/2012 1:37:01 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
Also, if someone claims something crazy like Barnie the Dinosaur as a bulletproof vig, I think its fair to ask them how the heck Barnie kills people.
royalpaladin
Posts: 22,357
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3/12/2012 1:40:24 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
Role justifications aid both sides; it helps test mafiosos who have poor fake claims (which is exactly why I caught BH-his claim was that he was a tracker because his character could walk through walls, which was entirely inconsistent with the character) and it also helps mafiosos discover the level of detail necessary to properly fake claim. My fake claim in Misfits was excellent because of the role justification.
drafterman
Posts: 18,870
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3/12/2012 1:41:15 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 3/12/2012 1:27:40 PM, medic0506 wrote:
I'd like to get the community's opinion on the issue of role justification. Even when I'm town, I hate when people ask, "What is the justification for your role??". I see it as being inherently unfair to non-townies, as well as townies.

I believe that it's unfair to non-townies because, to me, demanding this level of detail from a player's role pm circumvents the spirit of the no c/p rule. I see this in the same way that I see the letter test that a couple people did to compare role pm's. There is no way for non-townies to know the level of detail, or if there even is any detail given in townie pm's, for justifying their role. That makes it inherently unfair to demand that it be given out.

It's unfair to townies because it is a distractor. I don't care how good you are, when it comes to making a decision on the justification for someone's role, you are doing nothing more than just guessing, and most times you're going to be wrong. We cannot outguess the mods no matter how good we are, or how new the mod is. I understand that when this is done, we're starving for information of any kind, but most times our evaluation of that kind of info is going to be flawed.

Ok. So let's look at this "justification." First, it only happens in themed games, with flavored role PMs. If people simply got a character and role, with no flavor, this wouldn't be a problem. "You're JOE SCHMOE, the SCHMOE-IFIER." Boom. But that's boring and defeats the purpose of designing a themed game to begin with.

Second, and more importantly, it happens when a mod wants to include a character combo that they, personally, can't think of adequate justification for, since mods are the ones that put justification in there to begin with. Maybe the source in question doesn't have a good "Cop" character or a good "Bomb" character but you want to include that role in the game. Well, guess what? Someone is getting shoehorned into being that role, with poor justification.

The last is most important because lack of justificaiton isn't a town/mafia thing. It makes no sense to say "Oh, that's a poor justification for your role, you must be mafia." Look at Krillin in the DBZ game. Now, the logic is this: poor justification is indicative of a poor fake claim. But why assume players (who are often mods themselves) are any better/worse at coming up with justifications than the mods themselves?

I agree that this level of analysis really toes the C&P line but I'm not sure of how to combat it since it's somewhat subjective. The only thing I can really see is for Mods to specifically identify which portions of the Role PM players may reveal, like character and the actual Role Title. Of course, this prevents people from explaining how their role works if it is non-conventional, and I see nothing wrong with that.


We use scenarios in EMS alot for training purposes and I find them very valuable so let's set one up:

You're in DP 4 with 10 active players, and no good leads. One mafioso has been lynched, and there has been one kill each previous night but two last night, with a day kill during DP 2. Player A has claimed Ghandi, and was tracked the previous np. He visited player B, who ended up dead and confirmed town. When confronted, Ghandi claims to have x-shot vig ability with the justification that he would be allowed to bring justice to the world because his love for peace would stop anyone from suspecting that he is a killer. He claims to have killed Player B because he thought he was acting the most scummy, and denies doing the day kill. The tracker report was posted on page one, and Kyro pops in at the top of page two to say hi and ask for a summary.

What would you do in this situation, and why??

I think it depends on the ratio of dead town:mafia. But I'd advocate Ghandi's lynch.
Lickdafoot
Posts: 5,599
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3/12/2012 1:42:30 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 3/12/2012 1:27:40 PM, medic0506 wrote:

You're in DP 4 with 10 active players, and no good leads. One mafioso has been lynched, and there has been one kill each previous night but two last night, with a day kill during DP 2. Player A has claimed Ghandi, and was tracked the previous np. He visited player B, who ended up dead and confirmed town. When confronted, Ghandi claims to have x-shot vig ability with the justification that he would be allowed to bring justice to the world because his love for peace would stop anyone from suspecting that he is a killer. He claims to have killed Player B because he thought he was acting the most scummy, and denies doing the day kill. The tracker report was posted on page one, and Kyro pops in at the top of page two to say hi and ask for a summary.

What would you do in this situation, and why??

I wouldn't completely buy that justification. I could see if he said his need to bring peace among the government caused a few causalities or something like that. I would evaluate whether or not his target was the more likely mafia kill. I would ask him to explain why he thought his target scummy. If his explanations fell short and he wasn't confirmed with his role in some other way, i would lynch him.

I don't really see a problem with giving role justification. That is the whole reason for having characters in a game. The roles are supposed to be matched to the characters. If they aren't then it looks scummy. It's the mafias job to find a role to match their character. People should give summaries and not use specific wording.
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Logic_on_rails
Posts: 2,445
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3/12/2012 3:12:23 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
I think the easiest solution is simply for mods to be smarter about justification.

In Death in Mystere I purposefully left justification in some roles and not others. I didn't give a single cop any justification. I gave the slightest hints of justification to some. Mods have got to be smart about these things.

Role justification is one of the reasons I make classic games. Themed games would be great yet are too restrictive in terms of role choice.
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tvellalott
Posts: 10,864
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3/12/2012 8:10:13 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
I try very, very hard to make the character and roles match, but it is obviously an imperfect process. Seeing the constant call for 'role justification' is very frustrating to me, especially if there is a clear match between the character and role. I can think of an excellent example from my current HVV game but I won't mention it. Let's just say I was shocked when someone said "How does character match that role?!" when it was among the best matches of the game.
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Mestari
Posts: 4,656
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3/12/2012 9:01:07 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 3/12/2012 1:34:48 PM, BlackVoid wrote:
I'd lynch Ghandi because he was tracked to the dead body. Role justifications aren't a gold mine. To me they're just a little something extra to ask for if you need more info to go on.


Sorry... I had to... I know... I'm going to hell...

I don't think its unfair by any means. Role justifications can only be asked for if they claimed a role in the first place. Role claims are only asked for on DP2 or later, when people have already died. In which case the mafia can look at the dead role PM's and see how close the roles relate to the character. Its not unfair for mafia.

I don't see how it loopholes the no c/p rule. A justification can easily be faked and doesn't rely on getting certain letters and words in your role PM right. All it does is ensure that mafia have to think about their fake claims a bit more.

Its almost never a problem for mafia. All the mafiosos in the TV game had solid justifications. I know Blackhawk was lynched in HP because of a poor one, but thats a minority. Him and F-16 are the only ones I've seen lynched based off of it.
Rules of Mafia

1. Mestari is never third party.
2. If Mestari claims an intricate and page long TP role, he's telling the truth.
3. Mestari always jointly wins with the town.
3b. If he doesn't he's mafia.
3c. If he was mafia you wouldn't suspect him in the first place.
4. If you lynch Mestari you will lose because he will be the third party Doctor or some other townie power role.
5. DP1 lynches are good.
6. The answer is always no.
medic0506
Posts: 13,450
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3/12/2012 10:05:46 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
Thanks for the opinions, you guys make some good points.

BTW, y'all just mislynched your town vig. With 4 mafia, if their night kill goes through it's game over.

Did your consideration of the role justification help, or hurt you in that situation??
How much weight did you give it, or was it even a factor??
medic0506
Posts: 13,450
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3/12/2012 10:12:38 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 3/12/2012 10:06:48 PM, Greyparrot wrote:
I'll always hate you medic for lynching me as town every time :P

I didn't lynch you I was the mod...lol
bluesteel
Posts: 12,301
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3/12/2012 10:22:44 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
Like logic, as a mod, I purposely use good justifications for some roles and sh!tty justifications for others. It means that town can't just lynch all bad justifications and gives mafia some wiggle room.

As mafia, I *want* justifications. I benefit from them because I am good at fake claiming. I can usually come up with a better role justification than 60% or more of the actual townies.

To answer your scenario:

The claim itself seems ridiculous, since Ghandi was non-violent. I would judge the claim based on who the mod is (someone who would throw in Ghandi as a vig just to mess with the town or someone who does straight up games) AND based on behavior. You're forgetting behavior. I don't judge anyone's role justification in a vacuum - it's just another clue.

You'd also wait for a cc. If someone else claims to have killed someone, then Ghandi is mafia. If not, worst case Ghandi is serial killer, BUT serial killer needs to kill everyone to win so wouldn't forgo kills the first three nights for no reason. So Ghandi must be an actual townie vig.

Boom
You can't reason someone out of a position they didn't reason themselves into - Jonathan Swift (paraphrase)