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Should experienced players get power roles?

F-16_Fighting_Falcon
Posts: 18,324
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4/13/2012 1:40:27 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
Xerge's beginners 8.3 shows LordKnukle dead. He was the doctor. He was also the most experienced player in the game. No doubt the mafia viewed him as a threat and eliminated him while at the same time unwittingly eliminating a townie power role.

This brings us to the bigger question about whether experienced players should be given power roles at all. They could randomly be given power roles and LK may have randomly gotten his role. However, in other games such as DBZ, Hunger Games, and Monk Mafia, the most experienced and competent townies got the best roles. There are many other examples and most of them involve non-random role assignments. When mafia kill these experienced players, they put themselves in a very good position and the kills are rewarded through the elimination of a power role.

I think it is a lot better to give noobs good roles like cop, watcher, doc etc because the mafia will be more focussed on finding those roles than simply choosing experienced players to eliminate. I find that making players bulletproof, PGO, or in some way unkillable serves the purpose of mafia not always targeting the same players but trying to figure out the power roles and targeting those roles.
FourTrouble
Posts: 12,757
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4/13/2012 1:41:31 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
I think roles should be assigned randomly. Otherwise, the game gets too caught up in mod psychology, which makes it really easy for mafia to get mislynches.
Thaddeus
Posts: 6,985
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4/13/2012 1:42:33 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
He had claimed doctor. But I'm generally of the opinion that the should be no consideration to who gets which roles, and only a limited amount of consideration for who is on which team. However, for my next game I have got certain roles saved for certain people... Or have I?
F-16_Fighting_Falcon
Posts: 18,324
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4/13/2012 1:42:43 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
Sorry I realized I commented on an ongoing game after I typed the post. I was just using it as an example. My issue was more of a general one that spans several games.
Lordknukle
Posts: 12,788
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4/13/2012 1:45:54 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
I claimed doctor as a CC.

As it turns out, there are likely two real doctors in the game.

I didn't think that something like that would be possible in the Beginner Games so I was pretty sure that I caught a mafia fake-claiming Doc.
"Easy is the descent to Avernus, for the door to the Underworld lies upon both day and night. But to retrace your steps and return to the breezes above- that's the task, that's the toil."
drafterman
Posts: 18,870
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4/13/2012 1:48:30 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 4/13/2012 1:45:54 PM, Lordknukle wrote:
I claimed doctor as a CC.

As it turns out, there are likely two real doctors in the game.

I didn't think that something like that would be possible in the Beginner Games so I was pretty sure that I caught a mafia fake-claiming Doc.

From DP1:

"Mod Note: Though this is a closed set-up, I will note that roles are not necessarily unique, which is another common element of flavored roles. Some duplicate roles complement each other, while others are red-herrings designed to make the town think."
Lordknukle
Posts: 12,788
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4/13/2012 1:50:13 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 4/13/2012 1:48:30 PM, drafterman wrote:
At 4/13/2012 1:45:54 PM, Lordknukle wrote:
I claimed doctor as a CC.

As it turns out, there are likely two real doctors in the game.

I didn't think that something like that would be possible in the Beginner Games so I was pretty sure that I caught a mafia fake-claiming Doc.

From DP1:

"Mod Note: Though this is a closed set-up, I will note that roles are not necessarily unique, which is another common element of flavored roles. Some duplicate roles complement each other, while others are red-herrings designed to make the town think."

Yes, I realized that after I CCed. Nothing important is usually below the player list in the OP so I just skipped over it.
"Easy is the descent to Avernus, for the door to the Underworld lies upon both day and night. But to retrace your steps and return to the breezes above- that's the task, that's the toil."
BlackVoid
Posts: 9,170
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4/13/2012 1:53:55 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
Well there's a lot of benefits to giving power roles to active players too. For one, if you give them to newbs or lsser players they may not be able to use them effectively. It also encourages people to be active. The most experienced players are generally the most active, and giving power roles to active players creates incentive for activity.

There's obviously some issues like you said. Mafia can analyze the mod and determine which players they'd give the roles too. Thats why i like this alternative: Give some power roles to some active players, and some to lesser players. Give players that you would *obviously* give power roles to bulletproof or something like that. For instance, in Sci-Fi I have the Cop to Zaradi (hadnt played much at the time) and the Time Travel to Xerge (always flies under the radar), and gave Drafterman and Logic lesser roles. Obviously you and LDF got very powerful roles, but I can switch it up by giving you 2 different types of roles in my next game. As long as you don't give the same people the strong offensive roles every game is should be ok.
BlackVoid
Posts: 9,170
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4/13/2012 1:55:02 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
I agree that there's generally a trend though. I get power roles like every game. I think the last time I didnt have a power role was HvV Cartoons. Not complaining though :)
drafterman
Posts: 18,870
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4/13/2012 1:59:13 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 4/13/2012 1:50:13 PM, Lordknukle wrote:
At 4/13/2012 1:48:30 PM, drafterman wrote:
At 4/13/2012 1:45:54 PM, Lordknukle wrote:
I claimed doctor as a CC.

As it turns out, there are likely two real doctors in the game.

I didn't think that something like that would be possible in the Beginner Games so I was pretty sure that I caught a mafia fake-claiming Doc.

From DP1:

"Mod Note: Though this is a closed set-up, I will note that roles are not necessarily unique, which is another common element of flavored roles. Some duplicate roles complement each other, while others are red-herrings designed to make the town think."

Yes, I realized that after I CCed. Nothing important is usually below the player list in the OP so I just skipped over it.

In a regular game, perhaps.

The entire point of the beginner games is to peform an info dump on newbs to give them as much information as they need to know, in the span of four games, to allow them to play competently in regular games. As an IC, your purpose isn't just to be another body but to help teach those factors so the mod can concentrate on modding the game, as well as lead by example.

Xerge should have bolded the "Mod Note" part, so it would stick out.
BlackVoid
Posts: 9,170
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4/13/2012 2:00:19 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
Another thing you can do is limit noob presence. It lets you give active players the power roles without the downside. The more experienced players you have in the game, the less able the mafia is to determine who has the strongest powers .
drafterman
Posts: 18,870
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4/13/2012 2:01:59 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 4/13/2012 1:53:55 PM, BlackVoid wrote:
Well there's a lot of benefits to giving power roles to active players too. For one, if you give them to newbs or lsser players they may not be able to use them effectively. It also encourages people to be active. The most experienced players are generally the most active, and giving power roles to active players creates incentive for activity.

There's obviously some issues like you said. Mafia can analyze the mod and determine which players they'd give the roles too. Thats why i like this alternative: Give some power roles to some active players, and some to lesser players. Give players that you would *obviously* give power roles to bulletproof or something like that. For instance, in Sci-Fi I have the Cop to Zaradi (hadnt played much at the time) and the Time Travel to Xerge (always flies under the radar), and gave Drafterman and Logic lesser roles. Obviously you and LDF got very powerful roles, but I can switch it up by giving you 2 different types of roles in my next game. As long as you don't give the same people the strong offensive roles every game is should be ok.

Lies. I had the best role in the game: I could argue to my hearts content without fearing death.

I promote random role assignment but, ironically, other than beginner games, I haven't modded a game where I employed it. Both my Batman and CYOA games I had picked roles based on request/choice of the player. Also, all of the roles, I believe, were "good" roles, so that makes the point moot.

In my upcoming games, which are more "normal" I plan on using random role assignment. I don't know how we can expect players to become good at using roles appropriately except through experience at actually using those roles.
F-16_Fighting_Falcon
Posts: 18,324
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4/13/2012 2:05:31 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 4/13/2012 2:00:19 PM, BlackVoid wrote:
Another thing you can do is limit noob presence. It lets you give active players the power roles without the downside. The more experienced players you have in the game, the less able the mafia is to determine who has the strongest powers .

Not a bad idea. But I see something unethical with just picking and choosing who gets to play your game. Sure, I have invited players that I wanted to play but I still let anyone else join whenever I mod a game.

As mods, I think we can have objective standards like "play all beginner games before joining" but that too is a problem when good players want to play your game and they haven't played the beginners game and if you let them in anyway, you are no longer being objective.
medic0506
Posts: 13,450
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4/14/2012 11:22:17 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 4/13/2012 1:53:55 PM, BlackVoid wrote:
Well there's a lot of benefits to giving power roles to active players too. For one, if you give them to newbs or lsser players they may not be able to use them effectively. It also encourages people to be active. The most experienced players are generally the most active, and giving power roles to active players creates incentive for activity.

There's obviously some issues like you said. Mafia can analyze the mod and determine which players they'd give the roles too. Thats why i like this alternative: Give some power roles to some active players, and some to lesser players. Give players that you would *obviously* give power roles to bulletproof or something like that. For instance, in Sci-Fi I have the Cop to Zaradi (hadnt played much at the time) and the Time Travel to Xerge (always flies under the radar), and gave Drafterman and Logic lesser roles. Obviously you and LDF got very powerful roles, but I can switch it up by giving you 2 different types of roles in my next game. As long as you don't give the same people the strong offensive roles every game is should be ok.

I agree with BV here, I try to assign roles randomly but once I've done that I go back and look at the activity level of players who have the power roles. Sometimes I adjust things because if you don't and an inactive player gets an important role, you risk disadvantaging that team. Occasionally though, I have roles that I made specifically for certain people. In the gangster chronicle game I wanted you and LDF as Bonnie and Clyde, and Drafter as Robert Kennedy.

New players who stick around and are active even when they have crappy roles will find themselves getting better roles in the future. Activity is the key in my opinion. People like Zaradi, Airmax, Budda, and a few others, I would have no qualms with giving them power roles because I know that they'll be active and learn from it.
Zaradi
Posts: 14,124
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4/15/2012 6:52:44 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
I think that all this really comes down to (or should come down to) is mod discretion.

Of course, it's always going to be beneficial for people who haven't played a role before to play said role and learn from it. Of course active people are going to be better able to utilize said roles compared to less active players. And, of course, more experienced players will be able to better make us of roles compared to less experienced players (barring flat-out luck factoring in).

But in some games, you want to give a certain person a certain role, or put a certain group together as mafia or a certain two people as third party lovers (looking at you, Royal and Mestari). Sometimes a role just seems to perfectly fit a player for a certain game.

So it comes down to what the mod wants to do.
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Mestari
Posts: 4,656
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4/15/2012 6:57:56 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 4/15/2012 6:52:44 PM, Zaradi wrote:
I think that all this really comes down to (or should come down to) is mod discretion.

Of course, it's always going to be beneficial for people who haven't played a role before to play said role and learn from it. Of course active people are going to be better able to utilize said roles compared to less active players. And, of course, more experienced players will be able to better make us of roles compared to less experienced players (barring flat-out luck factoring in).

But in some games, you want to give a certain person a certain role, or put a certain group together as mafia or a certain two people as third party lovers (looking at you, Royal and Mestari). Sometimes a role just seems to perfectly fit a player for a certain game.


I swear I've actually been fearing that a mod would do that and then it would become a trend. :p

So it comes down to what the mod wants to do.
Rules of Mafia

1. Mestari is never third party.
2. If Mestari claims an intricate and page long TP role, he's telling the truth.
3. Mestari always jointly wins with the town.
3b. If he doesn't he's mafia.
3c. If he was mafia you wouldn't suspect him in the first place.
4. If you lynch Mestari you will lose because he will be the third party Doctor or some other townie power role.
5. DP1 lynches are good.
6. The answer is always no.
Buddamoose
Posts: 19,448
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4/15/2012 7:06:22 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 4/14/2012 11:22:17 AM, medic0506 wrote:


I agree with BV here, I try to assign roles randomly but once I've done that I go back and look at the activity level of players who have the power roles. Sometimes I adjust things because if you don't and an inactive player gets an important role, you risk disadvantaging that team.
New players who stick around and are active even when they have crappy roles will find themselves getting better roles in the future. Activity is the key in my opinion. People like Zaradi, Airmax, Budda, and a few others, I would have no qualms with giving them power roles because I know that they'll be active and learn from it.

^^Mission Accomplished.

Now for my two cents, i think what Medic laid out is a great way to do it. Randomize the roles, then adjust according to activity/skill. Honestly thats the best way to go from what I can see.
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