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As Vs. Cc Mafia Endgame

socialpinko
Posts: 10,458
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5/29/2012 6:30:29 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
Oberherr- Laura Silverman- Doc- town
HCP- The Warden- Rb- mafia
Lordknukle- Leela- vig- town
Tv- Daniel Tosh- JOAT- town
TUF- Butters- miller- town
Medic- Dep. Jones- cop- town
Vmpire- Senator Stampington- watcher- mafia
Bluesteel- Huey Freeman- Gf- mafia
Royalpaladin- Negrodaumus- oracle- town
Drafterman- Wanda Sykes- mason- town
F-16_Fighting_Falcon- Demitri Martin- vanilla- town
Zaradi- Lord Nibbler- Rb Docto- town
Mestari- Harvey Birdman- framer- mafia
Buddamoose- Richard Nixon's head- politician- town
Danielle- Allan Harvey- BP- town
Airmax- Jon Stewart- tracker/watcher- town

Town wins. Sorry about the end of the game. I would have liked to just have a constructive conversation with Bs about the balance issues but he decided it would be better to just ruin the rest of the game.
: At 9/29/2014 10:55:59 AM, imabench wrote:
: : At 9/29/2014 9:43:46 AM, kbub wrote:
: :
: : DDO should discredit support of sexual violence at any time and in every way.
:
: I disagree.
F-16_Fighting_Falcon
Posts: 18,324
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5/29/2012 6:33:10 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
I will comment more on the balance after you post night actions - maybe we all have a constructive discussion after all.

But continuing with what I was saying to Bluesteel in the DP thread, if mafia hadn't killed a claimed vanilla NP1, maybe there wouldn't have been so many power roles left to kill.
bluesteel
Posts: 12,301
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5/29/2012 6:39:19 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
True, I made mistakes this game. I wasn't paying as much attention as I should have given I was on my phone. That said, a watcher, doctor, bulletproof, super JOAT, cop, mason, plus trivia answers that confirm townies and who knows what bastard mod info spinko was feeding to royal don't make for a very fair game, even with one vanilla.

All the reasons drafter gave for lynching budda, about why it doesn't make sense for a mod to give that kind of info, were all valid criticisms of the game. Look, spinko basically bastard modded so badly that you guys lynched budda because you didn't believe a mod would be such a bastard mod.

I should have killed vmpire honestly, instead of mestari. But I thought vmpire would use watcher to confirm himself. I wasn't paying attention when he said "I'll just watch whoever HCP role blocks" which obviously makes no sense. Plus, there was a watcher cc, which I didn't foresee given that a watcher in this game 100% negates any usefulness from vmpire's role.

We also started with fewer mafiosos than we should have. Add to that a role who is basically guaranteed to be cc'ed (vmpire), and yeah, we basically started with 3 people.

I was certain HCP would be the one vig killed last NP. It makes sense to vig the beloved princess since you don't want to lynch that person.
You can't reason someone out of a position they didn't reason themselves into - Jonathan Swift (paraphrase)
bluesteel
Posts: 12,301
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5/29/2012 6:44:02 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
I don't get how I ruined the game. Explain to me how HCP could have ever won with 3 confirmed players. He had to RB the vig and kill medic, so even if he mislynched ober, he'd be stuck with whatever powers F-16 has left and then be lynched the next DP by F-16 and LK.

I guess I robbed town of the satisfaction of gloating at the endgame about how they p0wned us. But that's precisely what I didn't want to have to see. I hate how in completely pro-town biased game, town gloats and then argues that the game was fair for 48 hours, before granting the mafia some mercy and acknowledging that there were unfair aspects.

This game was unfun for so many reasons. Part being that it was hard to play on my phone. Part being that my teammates kept overruling what I told them. I told vmpire not to claim 1x roleblock. And lastly, the mod kept doing random things that benefitted the town, both with trivia and letting townies talk after the DP ended, which didn't matter since you guys could plan all the actions anyways in the Mason PM.

But I must say, I really appreciated it when danielle tried to strictly enforce the rules in her game. I don't get what has happened on this site with people posting in announcements and after death.
You can't reason someone out of a position they didn't reason themselves into - Jonathan Swift (paraphrase)
bluesteel
Posts: 12,301
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5/29/2012 6:45:10 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
*what has happened with mods permitting people to....
You can't reason someone out of a position they didn't reason themselves into - Jonathan Swift (paraphrase)
bluesteel
Posts: 12,301
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5/29/2012 6:49:21 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
Look at it this way: you guys demand that people be so active in games and constantly read up and pay attention and play hard. But then spinko says "bluesteel chill, it's just a game, just play it out, you can win and if not, who cares. No big."

Why should I invest significant time and mental energy in being bait for town, trying to come up with a decent claim but really just waiting like a fish in a barrel to be killed by the combination of the mason, cop, vig and JOAT.

This is why I hate being mafia. It takes twice as much mental energy for half as much fun. And in a town-sided game, it's zero fun. You're just there waiting for town to kill you. It's not really even a competition anymore. You get props only for delaying the inevitable for as long as possible.

I'm so sick of mod intervention and unfair rules. Partially, I had hoped ????? mafia would settle the question of whether mod intervention was a fun game mechanic or a really unfair tool.
You can't reason someone out of a position they didn't reason themselves into - Jonathan Swift (paraphrase)
drafterman
Posts: 18,870
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5/29/2012 6:51:34 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
Well, i already had vmpire and hcp pegged as mafia by the end of dp2, if you hadn't killed mestari, it would have been very different.
bluesteel
Posts: 12,301
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5/29/2012 6:51:54 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
spinko, as someone pointed out, you had no pre-planned info to give the town or mafia. you just made it up as you went along.

Thus, implicitly, you could alter the course of the game by choosing what info to give out. Supposedly you wouldn't have gone so far as specifically naming mafiosos, but it does mean that you could basically ensure that town won, if you wanted them to. A fair game makes it so that the mod cannot influence the game outcome once it has begun. Or rather, that's a non-bastard mod game. A fair game is also balanced in terms of roles.
You can't reason someone out of a position they didn't reason themselves into - Jonathan Swift (paraphrase)
F-16_Fighting_Falcon
Posts: 18,324
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5/29/2012 6:56:10 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
I think this game was definitely pro-town. Town had a vig, JOAT, cop, Mason, Doc, Tracker/Watcher, Jailer, and Bulletproof. True, there were a couple of scummy and useless roles thrown in like vanilla, miller, oracle, and politician.

If I were modding, I wouldn't have used so many pro-town roles because by default, it is extremely difficult to win as mafia if town plays rationally. Most mafia wins on this site have been due to townie mistakes. So, yeah, definitely pro-town. But then again, mafia have won many pro-town games too, like 007 mafia.

On the mafia side, they had a GF, framer, rb'er and watcher which isn't great at all. Overall, I wouldn't have liked to have been mafia in this game.

But then again, mafia made mistakes too like killing one of their own instead of a townie. Let's say that at some point in the game, there were 4 mafia, 8 town. Killing a townie would make it 4-7 while killing a mafioso would make it 4-8. It is like not only waiving a night kill but also a free kill of a mafioso for absolutely no reason.

The reasons to lynch budda were somewhat valid but Budda's behavior towards the end of the DP overwhelmingly gave away that he was town (Danielle recognized it too, I believe). Drafter and bluesteel continued arguing that Budda was scum so I thought they were both mafia. With Drafter confirmed as mason, that still left Bluesteel. Standard tell - mafia buddying with townie to get a mislynch.

Sure, the game was pro-town but mafia could have played a lot better - like night killing townies for instance. The game may never even have reached MYLO had Mestari been alive.
bluesteel
Posts: 12,301
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5/29/2012 7:02:37 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
@F-16

What drafter said. I knew I wasn't going to win the game at 4 vs. 4. It was going to come down to just me. I probably should have killed vmpire instead of mestari though. spinko told me you'd be the replacement for mestari. That almost changed my mind, but I didn't have enough internet access to argue HCP into letting me do that. He and vmpire already wouldn't let me kill mestari.

Given how badly HCP and vmpire were playing, I took a gamble. It failed. LK deserves props for who he chose to kill. It's why vig's suck if you're mafia - you die without ever getting to defend yourself. Vig's aren't necessarily positive utility, but they are certainly great if you confirm half the town and can coordinate night actions.

Spinko also didn't mod-balance the game in terms of teams. Small mafia = hopefully more than one strong player on the mafia side.

Whatever, write me off as a whiny b!tch if you want. I need a break from this site anyways. I get way too into mafia as evidenced by this. It's not healthy.
You can't reason someone out of a position they didn't reason themselves into - Jonathan Swift (paraphrase)
bluesteel
Posts: 12,301
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5/29/2012 7:04:23 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 5/29/2012 7:03:33 PM, medic0506 wrote:
Was Danielle framed the night I checked her, or was I insane??

framed
You can't reason someone out of a position they didn't reason themselves into - Jonathan Swift (paraphrase)
socialpinko
Posts: 10,458
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5/29/2012 7:06:57 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
1. Airmax1127
Watched Tv
Watched Royal
Watched Lk

2. Medic0506
Checked F-54959
Checked Danielle
Checked Royal
Checked Royal

3. Mestari
Framed Royal, killed F-49392
Framed Danielle

5. Buddamoose
Stole Vmpire's vote

8. Zaradi
Jailed Tv

10. TVellalott
Passed
Passed
Copped Drafterman
Copied Lk, used to kill Royal

11. Drafterman
Recruited Airmax
Recruited Lordknukle
Recruited F-495949

13. Lordknukle
Killed Zaradi
Passed
Attempted to kill Medic
Killed Bluesteel

14. Hardcore.Pwnography
Blocked Royal
Blocked Vmpire
Blocked Medic
Blocked Medic, killed Drafter

15. Vmpire321
Watched Tv
Killed Mestari, passed
Killed Airmax, watched Medic

16. OberHerr
Protected Danielle
Protected Tv
Protected Medic
Protected Medic
: At 9/29/2014 10:55:59 AM, imabench wrote:
: : At 9/29/2014 9:43:46 AM, kbub wrote:
: :
: : DDO should discredit support of sexual violence at any time and in every way.
:
: I disagree.
socialpinko
Posts: 10,458
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5/29/2012 7:08:34 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 5/29/2012 7:02:37 PM, bluesteel wrote:

Spinko also didn't mod-balance the game in terms of teams. Small mafia = hopefully more than one strong player on the mafia side.

Whatever, write me off as a whiny b!tch if you want. I need a break from this site anyways. I get way too into mafia as evidenced by this. It's not healthy.

I apologize for the mistake and understand your frustration. Balancing has always been a challenge for me when modding. I'll work on it in the future.
: At 9/29/2014 10:55:59 AM, imabench wrote:
: : At 9/29/2014 9:43:46 AM, kbub wrote:
: :
: : DDO should discredit support of sexual violence at any time and in every way.
:
: I disagree.
medic0506
Posts: 13,450
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5/29/2012 7:35:28 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
I'm usually sympathetic with the town, but I do agree that town was op'd, and confirmation was too easy. Mafia watcher is a waste when there is a town watcher. There wasn't really much that mafia could claim that wouldn't get cc'd, except for minor scummy roles. Town did have some scummy roles though. Heck I consider vanilla claims scummy anymore, that's why I checked Falcon first.

Everybody should get a mulligan though, on occassion, when modding. Balancing can be a tough job especially if you're trying to put the game together quickly. It's easy to make mistakes. Live and learn.
Hardcore.Pwnography
Posts: 4,720
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5/29/2012 8:16:02 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
For the record, I did say killing your own team mate was a bad idea. But Bluesteel insisted and said he had some master plan, so whatever.

Bluesteel, you win some, you lose some. You can't honestly expect to win every mafia game you play in. You sound like some spoiled kid who has to get what he wants every time, who can't handle losses. It's one thing to complain about the game, okay, I get that. You didn't like how it was modded, cool. But don't call vmpire or me bad players just because you lost. It's a team game. You win and lose as a team. And I get that we might not be as good as you think you are, but don't go off and complain about how bad we are at mafia, and how we lost the game for you. You just don't do that. It's really rude and discouraging. Also, I'm sure if the mod made a mistake that worked in your favor, you wouldn't have complained about it at all. And yes, believe it or not, mods do make mistakes some times. Honestly, you really need a lesson in sportsmanship.

Social, I think it was a good choice banning Bluesteel from your games, and honestly, I think everyone should do the same, and have Bluesteel go through a series of beginner games before being able to play mafia again. He might know how to play mafia, but he's lacking in the sportsmanship part of the game. Lannan did the same thing, he revealed all his mafia team mates. Now no one's letting him play until he goes through a series of beginner games. Bluesteel should have to go through the same.

Good job modding. I know it's hard to balance everything properly, but I think you did a good job. I honestly don't care if the game is pro town, pro mafia, or balanced. Either way, you get to play mafia and you get to have fun. That's all it is. Winning is nice, but that shouldn't be the sole reason you play mafia.
royalpaladin
Posts: 22,357
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5/29/2012 8:21:08 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
F_16, my inactivity was due to the fact that I wasn't even online, and I explained this in a DP thread. Since when has inactivity been my scumtell?
F-16_Fighting_Falcon
Posts: 18,324
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5/29/2012 9:18:49 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 5/29/2012 8:21:08 PM, royalpaladin wrote:
F_16, my inactivity was due to the fact that I wasn't even online, and I explained this in a DP thread. Since when has inactivity been my scumtell?

I don't know. It felt really wierd that you didn't post anything. I am used to seeing you make 5-6 posts every page. My mistake.
medic0506
Posts: 13,450
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5/29/2012 9:24:21 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 5/29/2012 8:21:08 PM, royalpaladin wrote:
F_16, my inactivity was due to the fact that I wasn't even online, and I explained this in a DP thread. Since when has inactivity been my scumtell?

It's not like you to be quiet, so if you're not yapping then we know something's wrong. :)
F-16_Fighting_Falcon
Posts: 18,324
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5/29/2012 10:04:47 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 5/29/2012 9:18:49 PM, F-16_Fighting_Falcon wrote:
At 5/29/2012 8:21:08 PM, royalpaladin wrote:
F_16, my inactivity was due to the fact that I wasn't even online, and I explained this in a DP thread. Since when has inactivity been my scumtell?

I don't know. It felt really wierd that you didn't post anything. I am used to seeing you make 5-6 posts every page. My mistake.

And to be entirely honest with you, town was in such a strong position that we were just picking off unclaimed players.
Danielle
Posts: 21,330
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5/30/2012 6:55:45 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 5/29/2012 7:07:41 PM, drafterman wrote:
For Budda:

You were right and I was wrong about the mod's psychology.


I wasn't :)
President of DDO
royalpaladin
Posts: 22,357
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5/30/2012 10:52:02 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
My role did not do anything fantastic; I only received information on one night, and I was unable to participate in the DP with that information.

"Watch out for young revolutionaries. They're smarter than everyone thinks and have a tendency to be underrated."