Total Posts:14|Showing Posts:1-14
Jump to topic:

Heroes Mafa - End Game

drafterman
Posts: 18,870
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
6/12/2012 9:59:20 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
then he risks townies dying by chance. Medic's decision to kill caveat eliminated the two largest threats to the town: himself and caveat.

While the game wasn't over at that point, it definitely made it an uphill battle for the Mafia. I'm sure that this was a simply oversight on medic's part, but I'm not sure there is any excusing it. Caveat character claimed and power claimed DP1 and was identified as a likely candidate for PGO. The mafia were in full gear to start redirecting townies into him, but unfortunately chose west, who did not have a visiting role.

With medic and caveat out of the picture, the Town was in a pretty solid foundation from that point forward.

Mistake 2: Who the fuck is "Claire Walkers?"

This one's on me. I can't really say where I got that name. As was pointed out, I probably created this game months ago. I did. In fact, I think this was one of the first games I ever designed. While it's certainly flattering to be portrayed in an infallible light, it's not really a standard I can live up to. Being such an early game, there actually should be less of an expectation of perfection.

While I certainly did triple check things, and made modifications (Matt's additional ability; Jeremy being a replacement for Nikki Sanders: Miller Vigilante) I never thought to check the character names! Why would I? They don't have an impact on the game (mechanics/balance). Even more ironic is the fact that I do recall thinking it odd that there were two Claires, but shrugged it off as being nothing.

I apologize to Apollo for the mistake, since it got him lynched (though he made a mistake of his own).

I also stand by my stance of not confirming it. Mods should interfere as little as possible, not just including mod mistakes, but especially including mod mistakes. The recommended course of action is to simply let the game play out. Mod interference only really has a chance of making things worse.

I've already made arrangements to compensate Apollo, so I hope there are no hard feelings. Given the Town's position, it really didn't hurt them anyway.

Mistake 3: Oh? This isn't the Heroes PM? Just pretend I wasn't here.

If the Mafia were in a hard position after NP1, they were even more so after johnny accidentally posted some incriminating material in the Beginner's Game Announcement PM. Given that it incriminated Ober as well, and vmpire was looking scummy after hammering Apollo the previous Day Phase, it was a serious blow.

However, I still think they had a chance. With johnny's recruiting ability, and the suspicion bossy was getting, they could have pulled it off. If they could have managed to have Johnny be the last person alive, he would have recruited someone, and bossy probably would have been mislynched. Also note the town was at MYLO at that point, even factoring in a botched Mafia NK. Imagine, instead of lynching Johnny on DP4, the town lynched Ober. Johnny would have gotten a recruit that night. We'll even grant Viper vigging johnny (instead of bossy, as he so badly wanted to do).

DP5 would have been:
1. Buddamoose
2. bossyburrito
3. Blackhawk (westernmarch)
4. LK
5. Viper-King

At this point it would be 4v1. Johnny's role would have flipped, but the Town wouldn't know who he recruited. Budda would have been the obvious target, but that just invokes WIFOM. I believe the town would have gone with the "obvious" scum in bossy, which would have been a mislynch. If bossy got misylnched, either Viper or Budda would have been NKed, depending on if either was recruited. Either would have been good targets, if only to get an extra kill.

DP6 would have been 2v1 (bossy's mislynch plus the mafia night kill). If VK or Budda were the recruit, it'd actually have been game over, since they could have used their Vig kills in addition to the mafia NK, making it 1v1.

Summary
I was worried, initially, about Town being underpowered, facing a Serial Killer, PGO, and Mafia redirector. F-16 allayed those concerns when he started coming up with potentially breaking strategies regarding his own power.

In the end, I think it was balanced. Ober's roleblock trumped everything. They could have even killed LK with it, if they wished. With VK outed as Doc on DP2, there is no reason they couldn't have guaranteed a kill, pairing up the RB with the Kill. However, they didn't count on Budda having BP, hence the No kill that one night.

The Mafia was undersized, but very potent, especially given Johnny's recruitment ability. Recruiting either Sylar or Budda would have been a real game changer if they ever got to that point.

The Town's abilities were rather weak, comparatively (Self-watcher, Random Follower). Heavy on investigative, but weak on protective, significant when compared to all of the killing roles the Town was slated to contend against. Worst case scenario would have had DP2 consisting only of non visiting roles: LK, airmax, west, Apollo, and johnny. Johnny would have gotten his recruit, and killed, and ended the game on NP2.
drafterman
Posts: 18,870
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
6/12/2012 9:59:45 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
Ugh. Botched that first post...

Town Wins!

Town
LK - Claire Bennet - REGENERATION - BP and Unlynchable (Unlynchable wasn't transferrable; other players would only get BP)
caveat - Maya Herrera - POISON EMISSION - PGO
F-16 - Ando Masahashi - POWER AMPLICATION - Allowed players to use their power in the DP
Buddamoose - Peter Petrelli - POWER MIMCRY - Mimic
westernmarch/blackhawk/medic - Dale Smithers - ENHANCED HEARING - Self-Watcher (Basically a watcher, but with himself as a permanent target)
HCP - Matt Parkman - TELEPATHY - Cop (Also would get one sentence spoken in a PM of the targeted player, redacting any other players named, for balance reasons)
Viper-King - Jeremey Greer - LIFEFORCE MANIPULATION - Doc/Vig
bossyburrito - Mohinder Suresh - No Powers - Flavor Cop (Could see others' powers)
Airmax - Isaac Mendez - PRECOGNITIION - Follower (Like tracker, but sees actions, not targets; doesn't visit target)
Apollo - Claire Walkers - CLAIRVOYANCE - Non-visiting Tracker (Yes, should have been Molly Walker)

Mafia
johnnyboy54 - Noah Bennet - No Powers - Godfather; 1x Recruiter
Ober - The Haitian - NULLFICIATION/AMNESIA - Roleblocker (Also stopped passive abilities)
Vmpire - Eden McCain - VOICE COMPULSION - Redirector

Third Party
medic - Sylar - POWER ABSORBTION - Serial-Killer + Mimic

I'll provide full PMs upon request.

Analysis

Several people have come to me praising this for being an interesting game. Not concidentally, they were all townies. While I appreciate that kind of feedback, part of me is disappointed that the play of this game was affected so much by mistakes, of which I identify three.

Mistake 1: PGO? Let's target him!

I'm sure to get complaints about how this game was Town Sided. However, you have to factor in the existence of a Mafia Redirector, Town PGO, and Serial Killer. The PGO was a double-edged sword. If the PGO claimed, the the Mafia could have continuously redirected townies into him. If the PGO did not claim, then he risks townies dying by chance. Medic's decision to kill caveat eliminated the two largest threats to the town: himself and caveat.

While the game wasn't over at that point, it definitely made it an uphill battle for the Mafia. I'm sure that this was a simply oversight on medic's part, but I'm not sure there is any excusing it. Caveat character claimed and power claimed DP1 and was identified as a likely candidate for PGO. The mafia were in full gear to start redirecting townies into him, but unfortunately chose west, who did not have a visiting role.

With medic and caveat out of the picture, the Town was in a pretty solid foundation from that point forward.

Mistake 2: Who the fuck is "Claire Walkers?"

This one's on me. I can't really say where I got that name. As was pointed out, I probably created this game months ago. I did. In fact, I think this was one of the first games I ever designed. While it's certainly flattering to be portrayed in an infallible light, it's not really a standard I can live up to. Being such an early game, there actually should be less of an expectation of perfection.

While I certainly did triple check things, and made modifications (Matt's additional ability; Jeremy being a replacement for Nikki Sanders: Miller Vigilante) I never thought to check the character names! Why would I? They don't have an impact on the game (mechanics/balance). Even more ironic is the fact that I do recall thinking it odd that there were two Claires, but shrugged it off as being nothing.

I apologize to Apollo for the mistake, since it got him lynched (though he made a mistake of his own).

I also stand by my stance of not confirming it. Mods should interfere as little as possible, not just including mod mistakes, but especially including mod mistakes. The recommended course of action is to simply let the game play out. Mod interference only really has a chance of making things worse.

I've already made arrangements to compensate Apollo, so I hope there are no hard feelings. Given the Town's position, it really didn't hurt them anyway.

Mistake 3: Oh? This isn't the Heroes PM? Just pretend I wasn't here.

If the Mafia were in a hard position after NP1, they were even more so after johnny accidentally posted some incriminating material in the Beginner's Game Announcement PM. Given that it incriminated Ober as well, and vmpire was looking scummy after hammering Apollo the previous Day Phase, it was a serious blow.

However, I still think they had a chance. With johnny's recruiting ability, and the suspicion bossy was getting, they could have pulled it off. If they could have managed to have Johnny be the last person alive, he would have recruited someone, and bossy probably would have been mislynched. Also note the town was at MYLO at that point, even factoring in a botched Mafia NK. Imagine, instead of lynching Johnny on DP4, the town lynched Ober. Johnny would have gotten a recruit that night. We'll even grant Viper vigging johnny (instead of bossy, as he so badly wanted to do).

DP5 would have been:
1. Buddamoose
2. bossyburrito
3. Blackhawk (westernmarch)
4. LK
5. Viper-King

At this point it would be 4v1. Johnny's role would have flipped, but the Town wouldn't know who he recruited. Budda would have been the obvious target, but that just invokes WIFOM. I believe the town would have gone with the "obvious" scum in bossy, which would have been a mislynch. If bossy got misylnched, either Viper or Budda would have been NKed, depending on if either was recruited. Either would have been good targets, if only to get an extra kill.

DP6 would have been 2v1 (bossy's mislynch plus the mafia night kill). If VK or Budda were the recruit, it'd actually have been game over, since they could have used their Vig kills in addition to the mafia NK, making it 1v1.

Summary
I was worried, initially, about Town being underpowered, facing a Serial Killer, PGO, and Mafia redirector. F-16 allayed those concerns when he started coming up with potentially breaking strategies regarding his own power.

In the end, I think it was balanced. Ober's roleblock trumped everything. They could have even killed LK with it, if they wished. With VK outed as Doc on DP2, there is no reason they couldn't have guaranteed a kill, pairing up the RB with the Kill. However, they didn't count on Budda having BP, hence the No kill that one night.

The Mafia was undersized, but very potent, especially given Johnny's recruitment ability. Recruiting either Sylar or Budda would have been a real game changer if they ever got to that point.

The Town's abilities were rather weak, comparatively (Self-watcher, Random Follower). Heavy on investigative, but weak on protective, significant when compared to all of the killing roles the Town was slated to contend against. Worst case scenario would have had DP2 consisting only of non visiting roles: LK, airmax, west, Apollo, and johnny. Johnny would have gotten his recruit, and killed, and ended the game on NP2.
drafterman
Posts: 18,870
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
6/12/2012 10:00:08 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
Night Actions
NP1:
LK - No action
caveat - Killed by medic; kills medic back
F-16 - Enables Budda; killed by Ober
Budda - Roleblocked, gains no powers, but still enabled by F-16*
west/blackhawk - Hears vmpire visit him
HCP - Investigates F-16 innocent; hears no thoughts
Viper - Protect Budda
bossy - Learns that Budda has POWER MIMICRY
Airmax - Dreams that Budda performed no action
Apollo - Tracks west to no one

johnny - No action
Ober - Roleblocks Budda; Kills F-16
vmpire - Redirects west to caveat (no effect; west is not a visiting role)

medic - Kills caveat, gains POISON EMISSION; killed by caveat

* - This seems to be a point of confusion. Budda was roleblocked, so gained no abilities. He still, nevertheless, was affected by others abilities. He was empowered by F-16 to use his own role during the following DP.

DP2:
Budda - Visits LK, gains REGENERATION

NP2:
LK - No action
Budda - Activates REGENERATION; visits West, gains ENCHANCED HEARING; visited by Ober (gains NULLIFICATION/AMNESIA)*
west/blackhawk - Hears Budda visit him
HCP - Investigates LK innocent; hears no thoughts
Viper - Protect Budda (roleblocked)
bossy - Learns that vmpire has NULLIFICATION/AMNESIA (targeted vmpire, but was redirected - by vmpire - to Ober)**
Airmax - Dreams that vmpire changed someone's mind (the redirect on bossy)

johnny - No action
Ober - Roleblocks Viper; Kills Budda (failed; budda was BP)
vmpire - Redirects bossy to Ober

* - Another point of confusion. Budda got the abilities of anyone he visits and anyone that visits him. Ober visited Budda during a kill attempt, which is why he was able to get the ability. Ober was roleblocking Viper.

** - This is why vmpire AND ober showed up as having NULLFICATION/AMNESIA to bossy. They thought bossy was going to target a townie and this was a frame attempt. They framed themselves in the end.

NP3:
LK - No action
Budda - Use REGENERATION; visit HCP, gains TELEPATHY
west/blackhawk - Hears no one visit
HCP - Investigates Ober Guilty; hears no thoughts
Viper - Kill bossy (Failure; roleblocked)
bossy - Learns that HCP has TELEPATHY
Airmax - Dreams of Bossy testing someone's DNA; killed by Ober

johnny - No action
Ober - Roleblock Viper; Kill airmax (successful)

NP4:
LK - No action
Budda - Use REGENERATION; visit Viper, gains LIFEFORCE MANIPULATION
west/blackhawk - Hears no one visit
HCP - Investigates bossy innocent; killed by Ober
Viper - Kill Ober (Failure; roleblocked)
bossy - Learns that Ober has NULLIFICATION/AMNESIA

Ober - Roleblock Viper; kill HCP (successful)
airmax1227
Posts: 13,241
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
6/12/2012 10:23:20 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
Well I had a lot of fun in this game.

Good game guys.

The mod-error was interesting but eventually was well overshadowed by the mafia error. In the mod-error case I agree with Drafter not confirming or denying anything about it, as it is simply an element of the game. Mistakes happen and it proved not to be a deciding factor in the outcome anyway.

So Bossy turned out not to be mafia, I'm pretty surprised by that. Good thing he remained a low priority lynch. As for Ober, Johnny and Vmpire, due to the mistake message I had the 3 of them pegged right at the beginning of day phase 3. I guess my initial thinking on that message, that Bossy was outed as RC, and not given a mafia claim, turned out to be accurate. Bossy and Vmpire both looked to be confirmed scum by the end of that DP though.

I was naturally NK'd following my analysis of DP3, but still watched the DP's eager for the town to pull it out.

Johnny's recruit ability could have been really bad for town though, so good thing they lynched him DP4. Good work guys.

Ober was the obvious lynch call DP5, and was so for the win.

Good game everyone.

This was a really fun game Drafter, I look forward to your next one.
Debate.org Moderator
caveat
Posts: 2,137
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
6/12/2012 12:13:27 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
Easiest win I ever done did.
There is an art, it says, or rather, a knack to flying. The knack lies in learning how to throw yourself at the ground and miss. " Clearly, it is this second part, the missing, which presents the difficulties.
vmpire321
Posts: 4,731
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
6/12/2012 1:59:20 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
Ugh, we made some mistakes. I feel like that if Johnny didn't accidently post in a different PM, we could have survived.

Too bad the PGO and the SK died on NP1, lol.
F-16_Fighting_Falcon
Posts: 18,324
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
6/12/2012 2:02:53 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
This game was easy for the town but I'd say the reason for that is the post in the announcement PM rather than game balance. The game was balanced but a but swingy. I knew my role could potentially overpower the town but mafia could apparently win in two NPs according to Drafter. So, luck swung it in our favor.
bossyburrito
Posts: 14,075
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
6/12/2012 2:02:54 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
GG
Amazing game Drafter <3
#UnbanTheMadman

"Some will sell their dreams for small desires
Or lose the race to rats
Get caught in ticking traps
And start to dream of somewhere
To relax their restless flight
Somewhere out of a memory of lighted streets on quiet nights..."

~ Rush
drafterman
Posts: 18,870
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
6/12/2012 2:09:34 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 6/12/2012 2:02:53 PM, F-16_Fighting_Falcon wrote:
This game was easy for the town but I'd say the reason for that is the post in the announcement PM rather than game balance. The game was balanced but a but swingy. I knew my role could potentially overpower the town but mafia could apparently win in two NPs according to Drafter. So, luck swung it in our favor.

I'll admit that the game had some swing to it. Also, the "win in two NPs" is only under the condition that EVERY visiting role visited Caveat NP1, dieing, AND the mafia getting an NK. Heck, if all the visiting roles *but* the mafia ones visited Caveat NP1, that would have been it.
caveat
Posts: 2,137
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
6/12/2012 2:12:37 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 6/12/2012 2:09:34 PM, drafterman wrote:
At 6/12/2012 2:02:53 PM, F-16_Fighting_Falcon wrote:
This game was easy for the town but I'd say the reason for that is the post in the announcement PM rather than game balance. The game was balanced but a but swingy. I knew my role could potentially overpower the town but mafia could apparently win in two NPs according to Drafter. So, luck swung it in our favor.

I'll admit that the game had some swing to it. Also, the "win in two NPs" is only under the condition that EVERY visiting role visited Caveat NP1, dieing, AND the mafia getting an NK. Heck, if all the visiting roles *but* the mafia ones visited Caveat NP1, that would have been it.

D

I'm still incredulous that I died NP1 after claiming DP1 lol
There is an art, it says, or rather, a knack to flying. The knack lies in learning how to throw yourself at the ground and miss. " Clearly, it is this second part, the missing, which presents the difficulties.
airmax1227
Posts: 13,241
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
6/12/2012 4:42:15 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 6/12/2012 4:30:54 PM, johnnyboy54 wrote:
Yeah I fvcked everything up

Why did medic target the obvious PGO?

Mistake happen... You made a good effort in trying to defend yourself though. Many would have just capitulated.. Your explanation was almost believable, so kudos for the effort.
Debate.org Moderator