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Town Watcher/Doctor is an overpowered role?

F-16_Fighting_Falcon
Posts: 18,324
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8/3/2012 1:53:51 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
This is something I was wondering when I was making my action shows game but didn't want to make a thread about for fear it would incriminate the mafia in my game.

Anyways, here is what a town watcher would do: protect a confirmed townie and ensure that they live for the rest of the game OR hand over a confirmed mafioso who kills that townie.

Here is what a doctor would do: prevent a confirmed townie from getting killed - sort of like an unlimited shot bodyguard. Also, if the doc saves correctly, the mafia have no kill - in addition to confirming the kill target.

Is it even fair to have such roles in mafia games? It pretty much dooms the mafia since they can't get rid of confirmed roles like cop for instance. I much prefer a bodyguard who not only acts like a 1X doc but dies upon the target being targeted for a kill which gets the mafia a kill regardless.

So, overall, mafia watcher is fine but town watcher seems really OP.

Any thoughts?
drafterman
Posts: 18,870
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8/3/2012 2:08:05 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 8/3/2012 1:53:51 PM, F-16_Fighting_Falcon wrote:
This is something I was wondering when I was making my action shows game but didn't want to make a thread about for fear it would incriminate the mafia in my game.

Anyways, here is what a town watcher would do: protect a confirmed townie and ensure that they live for the rest of the game OR hand over a confirmed mafioso who kills that townie.

Here is what a doctor would do: prevent a confirmed townie from getting killed - sort of like an unlimited shot bodyguard. Also, if the doc saves correctly, the mafia have no kill - in addition to confirming the kill target.

Is it even fair to have such roles in mafia games? It pretty much dooms the mafia since they can't get rid of confirmed roles like cop for instance. I much prefer a bodyguard who not only acts like a 1X doc but dies upon the target being targeted for a kill which gets the mafia a kill regardless.

So, overall, mafia watcher is fine but town watcher seems really OP.

Any thoughts?

http://wiki.mafiascum.net...
TUF
Posts: 21,304
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8/3/2012 2:52:28 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 8/3/2012 1:53:51 PM, F-16_Fighting_Falcon wrote:
This is something I was wondering when I was making my action shows game but didn't want to make a thread about for fear it would incriminate the mafia in my game.

Anyways, here is what a town watcher would do: protect a confirmed townie and ensure that they live for the rest of the game OR hand over a confirmed mafioso who kills that townie.

Here is what a doctor would do: prevent a confirmed townie from getting killed - sort of like an unlimited shot bodyguard. Also, if the doc saves correctly, the mafia have no kill - in addition to confirming the kill target.

Is it even fair to have such roles in mafia games? It pretty much dooms the mafia since they can't get rid of confirmed roles like cop for instance. I much prefer a bodyguard who not only acts like a 1X doc but dies upon the target being targeted for a kill which gets the mafia a kill regardless.

So, overall, mafia watcher is fine but town watcher seems really OP.

Any thoughts?

I have to dis-agree. The role is not overpowered at all. The roles that can be inter-changeable between town and mafia, will undoubtabely lose credence.

I was lynched in Stranded as a town watcher the other day simply because of a lot of WIFOM from medic that made people think I was mafia watcher. Also just because of bandwagoning, but I digress.

Anyways, I don't think Watchers become difficult until later on in any game. The chance that they actually watch the correct target in the first couple of DP's are pretty slim. First there is about 1 in 17 of a chance (thats the normal size of games lately) of them hitting the kill or roleblock target (or other obvious mafia role). And then trying to convict that person on top of that can be even harder. What if there were several visitors? What if the roleblocker says he is town?

There are plenty of variables that go into preventing this role from being over powered.

Now onto the doctor. I really don't think the doc is overpowered. Before just recently, we went through a spree of only mafia teams winning the game. There was a doctor in just about every one of them. The chance the doctor hits the kill target is very slim, and actually rarely ever even happens. Most players have realized that lately, and mainly doc themselves making them bulletproof. Honestly that is the best way to use the role, as mafia teams are un-predictable. It's really hard to tell how they will use their kill, until later on in the game.

Doc'ing yourself every night is probably the smartest way to use the doc ability, as your bound to become a kill target at some point if you have already out'ed your role. Might as well make it hard for the mafia while you are at it.

The only real town role I see as overpowered is probably a sensor. After putting one in my DBZ game, and seeing how it basically destroyed the entire cult, I realized I was probably never going to use one of those again.

For the mafia/Cult, I would say an OP'ed role is a tailor. The graveyard is the town's best tool, as it helps confirm how they are doing. If the town is confused by mod confirmed stuff, it becomes unfair as the mafia/cult basically will mis-lead them into a mis-lynch every time.
"I've got to go and grab a shirt" ~ Airmax1227
BlackVoid
Posts: 9,170
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8/5/2012 3:06:11 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
Well its only overpowered if it leads to an abnormal amount of wins. Doctors and Watchers have always been used, but the mafia has still won plenty if not a majority of games.

F-16 is right that they protect power roles, but roleblockers exist for a reason. The mafia can RB a Doc. They can night kill a Watcher. They can also RB the Cop to avoid Doc. They can also night kill the Doc if he doesnt protect himself. Long story short, there are ways for the mafia to deal with them.

If neither role is in the game, you have the issue of town not getting enough investigative results if any. For instance, Vmpire was the town's only legitimate investigator in Action Movies, but he was roleblocked every night.

I also imagine its not very fun to be the Cop if you know you're gonna get NK'd as soon as you get a guilty result. Although it might add some strategy to the role. "Do I want to out my guilty now and get killed tonight, or should I stay hidden and try to get another result?"
bluesteel
Posts: 12,301
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8/5/2012 12:11:19 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
Town watcher is extremely powerful. The mere possibility of a watcher means the mafia can't kill or role block their primary and preferred target. Mods have to keep this in mind when crafting games.
You can't reason someone out of a position they didn't reason themselves into - Jonathan Swift (paraphrase)
F-16_Fighting_Falcon
Posts: 18,324
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8/6/2012 12:49:14 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
Drafter, I agree that follow the cop is possible. The strategies and techniques that mafiascum illustrated are primarily designed to avoid a doctor i.e. roleblock the cop. With a watcher, however, the cop cannot be roleblocked and hence we get follow the cop all over again. I guess mafia could have a ninja in addition to a roleblocker but still it prevents townies from getting roleblocked unless the roleblocker himself is also a ninja.

I wonder if having a piercing kill ninja roleblocker but no townie watcher is good enough balance as the mere threat of a watcher is enough to scare away the mafia from the cop. This way, they can freely shoot at anyone they want without fear of being caught or losing a kill.

I will say, though that when I am town, I am usually very glad that there is likely a doc/watcher since it means that if I get confirmed as town in some way, I am not necessarily looking at an insta-kill.

TUF, your examples show that watcher can be a scummy role and is interchangeable between town and mafia. However, what I am talking about is the power of the role and not its scumminess. Once you prove yourself as town by catching a mafioso, and get the doc to be on you, it is extremely difficult to get rid of you as a watcher.

I agree that it can be difficult to catch a person in the act in the first few DPs. My point is that the threat of a watcher is enough to keep investigative roles alive and do their thing.

The only time doc'ing yourself every night is beneficial is if you are the protagonist or a confirmed role - so confirmed that you are essentially the person everyone is following. At that point, your current character is very useful - for instance, if you are a protagonist. But beyond that doc'ing other players is more useful. You could probably come back in as a replacement anyways, but I digress.

I agree that sensor are tailor are game-breakingly overpowered and should never be used. Tailor is essentially a type of mod-intervention because the graveyard is supposed to be mod-written and allowing players to write that is - well, over the line.

BlackVoid, I would say that most mafia wins are due to irrational behavior of townies - like I dunno, if a cop gets a guilty on scum, lynch the cop. Since better townies like FT have entered the game, the number of mafia wins are dwindling. If town is comprised of mostly analytical and rational players, it is extremely difficult for the mafia to win. Most of my recent wins as town, I feel like we had it too easy and I explain that the mafia did a good job and our roles were overpowered. After most of my losses as mafia, I complain that town was OP - so either way it seems like town is OP - I feel that having doctors and watchers play a large role in that feeling because with doctors and watcher, you can't get rid of cops, investigators etc.

I agree that in Action Movies that only legitimate investigator was roleblocked. Was it a bad thing? The investigator claimed early and gave away crucial info.

I do agree though that it is not very fun to be the cop if you know you are going to be night killed as soon as out a guilty.

Anyways, those were just my thoughts on these two roles. Nice to hear the other side of the story. I think TUF, BV, and Bluesteel do make good points that from the point of view of town, the roles may not be OP, but it seems as such to the mafia.
drafterman
Posts: 18,870
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8/6/2012 1:32:39 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 8/6/2012 12:49:14 PM, F-16_Fighting_Falcon wrote:
Drafter, I agree that follow the cop is possible. The strategies and techniques that mafiascum illustrated are primarily designed to avoid a doctor i.e. roleblock the cop. With a watcher, however, the cop cannot be roleblocked and hence we get follow the cop all over again. I guess mafia could have a ninja in addition to a roleblocker but still it prevents townies from getting roleblocked unless the roleblocker himself is also a ninja.

With a ninja you wouldn't need the roleblocker: you just kill the cop and you're done - the chain is broken.

But, there are other viable mechanisms. Such as making them every other night.


I wonder if having a piercing kill ninja roleblocker but no townie watcher is good enough balance as the mere threat of a watcher is enough to scare away the mafia from the cop. This way, they can freely shoot at anyone they want without fear of being caught or losing a kill.

I will say, though that when I am town, I am usually very glad that there is likely a doc/watcher since it means that if I get confirmed as town in some way, I am not necessarily looking at an insta-kill.

TUF, your examples show that watcher can be a scummy role and is interchangeable between town and mafia. However, what I am talking about is the power of the role and not its scumminess. Once you prove yourself as town by catching a mafioso, and get the doc to be on you, it is extremely difficult to get rid of you as a watcher.

I agree that it can be difficult to catch a person in the act in the first few DPs. My point is that the threat of a watcher is enough to keep investigative roles alive and do their thing.

The only time doc'ing yourself every night is beneficial is if you are the protagonist or a confirmed role - so confirmed that you are essentially the person everyone is following. At that point, your current character is very useful - for instance, if you are a protagonist. But beyond that doc'ing other players is more useful. You could probably come back in as a replacement anyways, but I digress.

I agree that sensor are tailor are game-breakingly overpowered and should never be used. Tailor is essentially a type of mod-intervention because the graveyard is supposed to be mod-written and allowing players to write that is - well, over the line.

BlackVoid, I would say that most mafia wins are due to irrational behavior of townies - like I dunno, if a cop gets a guilty on scum, lynch the cop. Since better townies like FT have entered the game, the number of mafia wins are dwindling. If town is comprised of mostly analytical and rational players, it is extremely difficult for the mafia to win. Most of my recent wins as town, I feel like we had it too easy and I explain that the mafia did a good job and our roles were overpowered. After most of my losses as mafia, I complain that town was OP - so either way it seems like town is OP - I feel that having doctors and watchers play a large role in that feeling because with doctors and watcher, you can't get rid of cops, investigators etc.

I agree that in Action Movies that only legitimate investigator was roleblocked. Was it a bad thing? The investigator claimed early and gave away crucial info.

I do agree though that it is not very fun to be the cop if you know you are going to be night killed as soon as out a guilty.

Anyways, those were just my thoughts on these two roles. Nice to hear the other side of the story. I think TUF, BV, and Bluesteel do make good points that from the point of view of town, the roles may not be OP, but it seems as such to the mafia.