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TBJ 1- Endgame

medic0506
Posts: 13,450
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8/9/2012 2:36:22 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
1st Place- Defense and Jury
2nd Place- Prosecution

Kate Darnell was indeed innocent, and everything she said that Edwin told her was true, as was the frame attempt by Jeannie Francis.

This game was plagued with problems on the prosecution side. Tuf came in and salvaged it as best he could, but he was still at a disadvantage.

Prosecution stopped investigating just before the point where they would have found the "smoking gun", in this case. They searched Jeannie Francis' home, but all they found that was relevant was a key, in her desk drawer. That key, and her refusal to wait outside during the search after being so cooperative throughout the investigation, were clues that there was something there.

The search warrant authorized them to search her home, and property. When I described the scene that they found as they pulled up, I told them about the shed and the doghouse in the back yard, but they never searched there. If they had looked in the shed they would have found a plastic trash bag containing a bloody towel (Edwin's blood), as well as a number of used latex gloves. Some of those gloves had Edwin's blood on the outside, and her DNA on the inside. There was also a shovel that had both red clay and black top soil on it.

Had they investigated further, they would have found it strange that there was a doghouse, but no dog. Looking under the doghouse would have revealed how the shovel got dirty. There was disturbed earth, where it appeared someone had been digging. In addition, there were small bits of red clay on top of the black dirt meaning that someone was careless when filling the hole back in. Just a few inches down, was a locked metal box inside a bag. The key that they found would have unlocked the box, revealing almost $200,000 in cash.

A check of Jeannie's financial records would have revealed nothing significant, but a search for insurance policies would have. The beneficiary status had recently changed. He had a 2 million dollar life insurance policy with fifty percent split between his 2 kids, and the other fifty percent split between Kate and Jeannie.

Again I hope you all enjoyed this and hope this catches on and more people become involved.

Questions or comments??
drafterman
Posts: 18,870
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8/9/2012 2:43:27 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
I found this entire thing to be very enjoyable, and I thank you for putting the effort in to moderate it.

However, I will note that your implementation presents certain challenges for the Defense Pre-Trial.

First, it isn't really clear the role Defense is to play during this phase of the game. Silent observers? Do we investigate on our own?

Second, and more importantly, is the Defense is put in a Catch-22 with regards to defending the ultimate suspect. When the police initially decide to arrest and interrogate one suspect, it is the natural inclination of the Defense to try and prevent the suspect from incriminating him or herself. In the course of such defense, they may provide reasoning or evidence which incriminates other people as suspects.

This is self-defeating. If you convince the police to charge the other suspect then you'll just end up defending them since you're the only Defense in town. So, by trying to defend one suspect, you're actually making it harder in the long run as you'll end up having to defend, at trial, the other suspection with whom you've just helped the police incriminate.

If played again in this format, I'd either alter the format slightly to prevent this (not sure how that would be done) or have the Defense simply be silent observers, and the mod plays the part of any suspects' lawyers pre-trial, then hands them over to the suspect once the Trial begins.

I think our biggest challenge was dealing with the gun. I couldn't really think of a way to portray it as being a reasonable frame attempt, so I just didn't mention it.

Also, after some research, I noticed that Leading questions are perfectly valid during cross-examination, which I wish I had learned sooner.
Viper-King
Posts: 4,822
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8/9/2012 2:51:34 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
I loved it. Basically, it was due to the lack of evidence on Mrs. Darnell's part. It was quite outrageous that a criminal would throw rat poison and the gun in a trash bin if she used it to kill her husband. Though there was motive, the lack of evidence was what made me vote Not Guilty. There was no clear motive on Jeanine's part but Mrs. Darnell obviously wouldn't have been so careless if it was pre-meditated. Also it takes quite a large amount of faith that she pretended to call her husband twenty times and then attempt to go into his office though it was locked. Jeanine obviously poisoned Mr. Darnell through rat poison and cocaine in his food while shooting him when he was dying. I would like to ask how did Jeanine frame Mrs. Darnell?
medic0506
Posts: 13,450
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8/9/2012 3:24:43 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 8/9/2012 2:43:27 PM, drafterman wrote:
I found this entire thing to be very enjoyable, and I thank you for putting the effort in to moderate it.

However, I will note that your implementation presents certain challenges for the Defense Pre-Trial.

First, it isn't really clear the role Defense is to play during this phase of the game. Silent observers? Do we investigate on our own?

Second, and more importantly, is the Defense is put in a Catch-22 with regards to defending the ultimate suspect. When the police initially decide to arrest and interrogate one suspect, it is the natural inclination of the Defense to try and prevent the suspect from incriminating him or herself. In the course of such defense, they may provide reasoning or evidence which incriminates other people as suspects.

This is self-defeating. If you convince the police to charge the other suspect then you'll just end up defending them since you're the only Defense in town. So, by trying to defend one suspect, you're actually making it harder in the long run as you'll end up having to defend, at trial, the other suspection with whom you've just helped the police incriminate.

If played again in this format, I'd either alter the format slightly to prevent this (not sure how that would be done) or have the Defense simply be silent observers, and the mod plays the part of any suspects' lawyers pre-trial, then hands them over to the suspect once the Trial begins.

Thanks, and I do agree with you on these points, problem was that I didn't realize it was a problem until after the fact.
Originally I wanted to make defense just observers who had access to everything, until prosecutors decided who to charge. I realized very early though, that they were going to take forever to get through the investigation phase, and wanted to get you guys into the game so you didn't get bored and drop out.

I think our biggest challenge was dealing with the gun. I couldn't really think of a way to portray it as being a reasonable frame attempt, so I just didn't mention it.

Sometimes not calling undue attention to evidence is the best course of action.

Also, after some research, I noticed that Leading questions are perfectly valid during cross-examination, which I wish I had learned sooner.

What did you find about this?? I didn't really research the rules.
Hardcore.Pwnography
Posts: 4,720
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8/9/2012 3:31:03 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
Yeah, leading questions are valid during cross.

Some of the things invalid are hearsay, expert opinion when the witness is not an expert, etc.
drafterman
Posts: 18,870
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8/9/2012 3:32:16 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 8/9/2012 3:24:43 PM, medic0506 wrote:
At 8/9/2012 2:43:27 PM, drafterman wrote:
I found this entire thing to be very enjoyable, and I thank you for putting the effort in to moderate it.

However, I will note that your implementation presents certain challenges for the Defense Pre-Trial.

First, it isn't really clear the role Defense is to play during this phase of the game. Silent observers? Do we investigate on our own?

Second, and more importantly, is the Defense is put in a Catch-22 with regards to defending the ultimate suspect. When the police initially decide to arrest and interrogate one suspect, it is the natural inclination of the Defense to try and prevent the suspect from incriminating him or herself. In the course of such defense, they may provide reasoning or evidence which incriminates other people as suspects.

This is self-defeating. If you convince the police to charge the other suspect then you'll just end up defending them since you're the only Defense in town. So, by trying to defend one suspect, you're actually making it harder in the long run as you'll end up having to defend, at trial, the other suspection with whom you've just helped the police incriminate.

If played again in this format, I'd either alter the format slightly to prevent this (not sure how that would be done) or have the Defense simply be silent observers, and the mod plays the part of any suspects' lawyers pre-trial, then hands them over to the suspect once the Trial begins.

Thanks, and I do agree with you on these points, problem was that I didn't realize it was a problem until after the fact.
Originally I wanted to make defense just observers who had access to everything, until prosecutors decided who to charge. I realized very early though, that they were going to take forever to get through the investigation phase, and wanted to get you guys into the game so you didn't get bored and drop out.

I think our biggest challenge was dealing with the gun. I couldn't really think of a way to portray it as being a reasonable frame attempt, so I just didn't mention it.

Sometimes not calling undue attention to evidence is the best course of action.

Also, after some research, I noticed that Leading questions are perfectly valid during cross-examination, which I wish I had learned sooner.

What did you find about this?? I didn't really research the rules.

I started doing some research when I decided to call Dninja to the stand. I figured he would be a hostile witness, but I didn't know what all that entailed. In researching hostile witnesses I came across this:

(c) Leading Questions. Leading questions should not be used on direct examination except as necessary to develop the witness's testimony. Ordinarily, the court should allow leading questions:

(1) on cross-examination; and

(2) when a party calls a hostile witness, an adverse party, or a witness identified with an adverse party.

http://www.law.cornell.edu...

I don't think it impacted the outcome at all, since I managed to reword my questions to avoid the objection. I just wish I knew it.
drafterman
Posts: 18,870
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8/9/2012 3:33:56 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 8/9/2012 3:31:03 PM, Hardcore.Pwnography wrote:
Yeah, leading questions are valid during cross.

Some of the things invalid are hearsay, expert opinion when the witness is not an expert, etc.

I think I toed the line on hearsay during my examination of Dninja/medic, but TUF never objection. Also, other than Francis and Jeane, all the witnesses were agreed to have been experts.
medic0506
Posts: 13,450
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8/9/2012 3:50:44 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
Here is the entire scenario that I wrote out prior to starting the game. It really makes things easier and more accurate to have everything ready so that you don't have to wing it, or depend on memory...

Trial by Jury- Full Scenario

Edwin and Kate Darnell had been married for 28 years, and raised 2 children together. Edwin was an accountant, who owned his own small firm, and Kate a homemaker. Outwardly, their marriage appeared to be a happy one. However, Kate had recently caught him talking on the phone with his assistant, a younger woman, around midnight, when he thought she was asleep. Later, as he was sleeping, she checked his phone and retrieved the number. The next day while he was at work, she researched his cell account online where she found several calls to and from that number over the past couple months, all at odd times which couldn't be explained as work related. When Kate dialed the number, the woman answered and Kate immediately recognized the voice as that of Jeannie Francis. When Kate confronted him that night, Edwin began to sob, and aired some dirty laundry.

He confessed to her that, for years, he had been skimming money from clients. Not large amounts, just enough here and there to amass a respectable amount. Jeannie stumbled onto Edwin's scam during an audit, and had been blackmailing him ever since. Cash payments in increments of 10,000 to 20,000 dollars, whenever she demanded it, and she demanded a lot. So much so that she had almost taken everything. She had taken almost $200,000, which she wisely didn't spend. Instead she kept it in a metal safe, buried under the dog house in her back yard. No bank records will be found to reveal anything more than her normal income, and she didn't go on shopping sprees or buy anything large or unusual. Once Jeannie stumbled onto Edwin's extra income source, she began flirting with him, and the two began to have a sexual relationship. This helped her and made it easier to get the money. When Edwin told Jeannie that most of the money was gone, she demanded more but he refused, saying that he couldn't get more without getting caught. He told Kate that the relationship was over, but that he was afraid to fire Jeannie because she could ruin his entire career. The two agreed to wait for two weeks to see if the blackmail attempts stopped then go away together for a weekend to figure out how to handle the situation from there. That weekend never came.

The day that Kate called Jeannie's cell number, from her home phone, while Edwin was at the office with her, Jeannie knew that the affair was no longer secret. She also knew that when confronted, Edwin would tell Kate the entire story, and Kate would convince him to fire her and end the income source. She was also afraid that she would be found out by police, and prosecuted, if Edwin's scheme were discovered. There seemed only one solution, so she devised a plan to kill Edwin, and frame Kate for the murder. Jeannie decided to start bringing him lunch every day, which she laced with small amounts of rat poison, when she brought him coffee she added small amounts of stimulants. The lunches, combined with other flirtation, convinced Edwin that she was just trying to rekindle the physical relationship. After a couple days, he began to get sick with flu-like symptoms, but he never put two and two together. She continued the trace amounts of poison and increased the stimulants. After about a week he finally collapsed one day in his office. He died on Wednesday July 11, at approximately 3:10pm. Later that night, wearing gloves, she dragged his body out the back door, took his gun from the glove box and fired 5 shots into his torso. She then wiped the small amount of blood from his body, with a towel, and stuffed his body inside the trunk of his Lexus. She drove to Acme Warehouse, a couple miles away and parked by a dumpster. The body was then moved into the driver seat, and the two shells from the exit wounds were placed in the seat behind him. She also took cash and credit cards from his wallet, left the wallet, and placed a bag of cocaine and his cell phone, in the vehicle's glove box. She walked back to the office, cleaned up and locked up as usual. She then drove to an alleyway, behind the Darnell home, silently walked up and put the gun and ammo inside the glove box of Kate's car. She put Edwin's ID and credit cards inside the trash can that was sitting beside the garage. Kate, irate upon her assumption that Edwin and Jeannie were together that night, didn't even bother to pull her car into the garage, or put the door down. That made it easy for Jeannie to slip into the garage and leave the box of rat poison beside some pool and lawn chemicals. When she finished there, she took Edwin's keys back and replaced them in the vehicle so it would appear as the cops would expect to find it after a drug deal/robbery/murder. She had taken his keys because of the probability of Kate's car being locked, she knew that they kept keys for each other's cars. During the course of the evening, setting up the murder scene, she made a few calls from her cell to Edwin's, and one from Edwin's to hers. This would allow phone records to make it appear that the two hadn't been together that night.

Once she got home, she took the bag with the bloody towel and the bloody gloves, and put it in her shed until she could decide how to dispose of them.

When Edwin wasn't home for dinner, and hadn't called, Kate began calling the office and his cell phone from their home number. She waited a couple more hours, and when he still didn't answer, she decided to go to the office, still calling from her cell as she drove. She drove by but his car wasn't at the office, Jeannie's car was. Kate went to the door and found it locked. She let herself in, and found the office empty. She became enraged, and went straight home to begin packing his things. Kate assumed that he and Jeannie must be out together, and aren't even bothering to hide it any more. She spent the night packing and crying, but finally got to sleep around 4:00am.

To keep up the charade, Jeannie went to work as usual the following morning, and when Edwin didn't show up she finally called his house, and talked to Kate. It was a part of the plan that she dreaded, but it had to be done. Kate confronted Jeannie with what she knew, but Jeannie denied that she was with Edwin, and denied that her car was at the office. She told Kate that she left at 5:00pm, the previous night, and Edwin was still working when she left. Kate didn't trust her, she was certain that was Jeannie's car. When the two hung up, Kate called the police, who came out and took a report. They then began searching for the car. Within a few hours, a call came in to 911 from a sanitation worker who found the vehicle with Edwin's body.
DetectableNinja
Posts: 6,043
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8/9/2012 3:52:22 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
I am ashamed of my performance, and medic knows I was in the PM.
Think'st thou heaven is such a glorious thing?
I tell thee, 'tis not half so fair as thou
Or any man that breathes on earth.

- Christopher Marlowe, Doctor Faustus
medic0506
Posts: 13,450
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8/9/2012 3:55:07 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
Here's a little clue that I threw in that may have implicated Jeannie, if it had been caught.

The morning after the murder, Jeannie called the Darnell home phone to check if Edwin had left yet. She never called their home phone, always contacting Edwin on his cell. If she was genuinely looking for Edwin, why didn't she just call his cell phone??
medic0506
Posts: 13,450
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8/9/2012 3:59:21 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 8/9/2012 3:52:22 PM, DetectableNinja wrote:
I am ashamed of my performance, and medic knows I was in the PM.

You were doing pretty well, then all of a sudden you just seemed to lose interest. You'd have done fine if you'd have used some sticktoitiveness.
DetectableNinja
Posts: 6,043
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8/9/2012 4:02:49 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 8/9/2012 3:59:21 PM, medic0506 wrote:
At 8/9/2012 3:52:22 PM, DetectableNinja wrote:
I am ashamed of my performance, and medic knows I was in the PM.

You were doing pretty well, then all of a sudden you just seemed to lose interest. You'd have done fine if you'd have used some sticktoitiveness.

I know, I know. It's a really bad problem of mine.

However, I will say though that Prosecution does have a disadvantage in that don't exactly know what our parameters are. Like, we don't really know how far we can/should go in investigation. Like, it wasn't clear that we COULD check bank records, or where we COULD look, or whatever. It just felt really overwhelming. I know Defense has disads too, but they really do have the advantage of being retrospectors.
Think'st thou heaven is such a glorious thing?
I tell thee, 'tis not half so fair as thou
Or any man that breathes on earth.

- Christopher Marlowe, Doctor Faustus
medic0506
Posts: 13,450
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8/9/2012 4:21:47 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 8/9/2012 4:02:49 PM, DetectableNinja wrote:
At 8/9/2012 3:59:21 PM, medic0506 wrote:
At 8/9/2012 3:52:22 PM, DetectableNinja wrote:
I am ashamed of my performance, and medic knows I was in the PM.

You were doing pretty well, then all of a sudden you just seemed to lose interest. You'd have done fine if you'd have used some sticktoitiveness.

I know, I know. It's a really bad problem of mine.

However, I will say though that Prosecution does have a disadvantage in that don't exactly know what our parameters are. Like, we don't really know how far we can/should go in investigation. Like, it wasn't clear that we COULD check bank records, or where we COULD look, or whatever. It just felt really overwhelming. I know Defense has disads too, but they really do have the advantage of being retrospectors.

It's true that you had a daunting job to do, but there were no constraints. Anything that you wanted to check could be checked. If you're looking for the possibility of blackmail then financial records would have to be accessible.

The prosecutor/investigator is the most important role in the game, as nothing happens unless he is active. Keep that in mind if you guys decide to mod one of these. You have to have an active prosecutor or the game lasts forever and people lose interest.
TUF
Posts: 21,297
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8/9/2012 4:23:32 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
I'll read over all the analysis and stuff later. Thanks for the game medic.

It was kind of fun, but at some point, I kept getting bored with how long the thing dragged out. It took like two weeks to do the trial, and there came a point where I could have called objections, but didn't want to wait for medic to come on to sustain or object it. So I just kind of went along. it was fun though. Good job dninja!
"I've got to go and grab a shirt" ~ Airmax1227
DetectableNinja
Posts: 6,043
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8/9/2012 4:26:34 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 8/9/2012 4:23:32 PM, TUF wrote:
I'll read over all the analysis and stuff later. Thanks for the game medic.

It was kind of fun, but at some point, I kept getting bored with how long the thing dragged out. It took like two weeks to do the trial, and there came a point where I could have called objections, but didn't want to wait for medic to come on to sustain or object it. So I just kind of went along. it was fun though. Good job dninja!

Sarcasm? ;)
Think'st thou heaven is such a glorious thing?
I tell thee, 'tis not half so fair as thou
Or any man that breathes on earth.

- Christopher Marlowe, Doctor Faustus
TUF
Posts: 21,297
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8/9/2012 4:28:40 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 8/9/2012 4:02:49 PM, DetectableNinja wrote:
At 8/9/2012 3:59:21 PM, medic0506 wrote:
At 8/9/2012 3:52:22 PM, DetectableNinja wrote:
I am ashamed of my performance, and medic knows I was in the PM.

You were doing pretty well, then all of a sudden you just seemed to lose interest. You'd have done fine if you'd have used some sticktoitiveness.

I know, I know. It's a really bad problem of mine.

However, I will say though that Prosecution does have a disadvantage in that don't exactly know what our parameters are. Like, we don't really know how far we can/should go in investigation. Like, it wasn't clear that we COULD check bank records, or where we COULD look, or whatever. It just felt really overwhelming. I know Defense has disads too, but they really do have the advantage of being retrospectors.

Exactly. That's why I think future TBJ's should be hosted like actual mock trials. Everything is straight forward and to the point. All the Prosecution has to do is choose someone, and prove their point based on information already provided.

We kind of lost this because we had to do investigations. In real life, attorneys don't do investigating. They just take the evidence they already have, and make a case out of it.

That's why this was complicated. Plus I didn't really know what dninja had already done, and I felt like everyone was waiting for me, so I just said screw it, lets do this. I kind of knew we were going to lose already, but I still had fun with the game. It was a great trial run (pun intended).

I think there are a lot of new mechanics that can be employed in this variant of game. I am employing new ones already in the game I started. Hope it works out alright. Jm just informed me that he should be ready in 36 hours or less, so we will see.
"I've got to go and grab a shirt" ~ Airmax1227
medic0506
Posts: 13,450
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8/10/2012 7:01:36 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 8/9/2012 4:28:40 PM, TUF wrote:
At 8/9/2012 4:02:49 PM, DetectableNinja wrote:
At 8/9/2012 3:59:21 PM, medic0506 wrote:
At 8/9/2012 3:52:22 PM, DetectableNinja wrote:
I am ashamed of my performance, and medic knows I was in the PM.

You were doing pretty well, then all of a sudden you just seemed to lose interest. You'd have done fine if you'd have used some sticktoitiveness.

I know, I know. It's a really bad problem of mine.

However, I will say though that Prosecution does have a disadvantage in that don't exactly know what our parameters are. Like, we don't really know how far we can/should go in investigation. Like, it wasn't clear that we COULD check bank records, or where we COULD look, or whatever. It just felt really overwhelming. I know Defense has disads too, but they really do have the advantage of being retrospectors.

Exactly. That's why I think future TBJ's should be hosted like actual mock trials. Everything is straight forward and to the point. All the Prosecution has to do is choose someone, and prove their point based on information already provided.

Maybe I should have called my version Law and Order, because it incorporates both aspects of the process. I did it that way because that's how I personally, would like to play it. I'd prefer to do my own investigating, so I guess I assumed that others would like it that way too.

We kind of lost this because we had to do investigations.

Exactly, and to me, that's how the game should work. You win or lose based on your own actions. Even if you had lost at trial, you'd have the satisfaction of knowing that you made the right call, if the real murderer had been discovered. You found the actual "truth" in the case. For me that would have been as good as a win at trial.

In real life, attorneys don't do investigating. They just take the evidence they already have, and make a case out of it.

That's why this was complicated. Plus I didn't really know what dninja had already done, and I felt like everyone was waiting for me, so I just said screw it, lets do this. I kind of knew we were going to lose already, but I still had fun with the game. It was a great trial run (pun intended).

I think there are a lot of new mechanics that can be employed in this variant of game. I am employing new ones already in the game I started. Hope it works out alright. Jm just informed me that he should be ready in 36 hours or less, so we will see.