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Small Games versus Large Games

Zaradi
Posts: 14,127
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9/4/2012 10:16:40 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
With the decline in activity in the mafia forums, I think it's becoming necessary to consider the benefits to structuring games on a smaller scale in size as compared to the usual larger games that we currently design and play.

Barring any attempts at mass recruiting, I feel that we need to begin scaling down our games in size. From what we have seen recently in sign ups like FT's that took weeks just to get a full game, or Daytona's and westernmarch's that never even got past the sign up thread, there are less and less active players playing mafia. I believe that if we scale down the size of the games, thus allowing us to continue the appearance of being active in our games, would be more beneficial than keeping our games at their current size and waiting a few weeks for them to fill.

Thoughts?
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Buddamoose
Posts: 19,450
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9/4/2012 10:44:27 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
I agree completely with this :)
"Reality is an illusion created due to a lack of alcohol"
-Airmax1227

"You were the moon all this time, and he was always there to make you shine."

"Was he the sun?"

"No honey, he was the darkness"

-Kazekirion
maxx233
Posts: 498
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9/4/2012 10:52:30 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
Being new myself, I'll offer my thoughts. I found the entrance barriers to be too steep, personally. I had previously played before IRL though and knew that I enjoyed the game, so I persisted. Others may not have that advantage, and thus probably just give up. Basically, no one wants a beginner in their games unless they've gone through the beginner games series first (and there's good reason for this. First and foremost is insuring that the noob is actually going to play and be active. And it's definitely a lot more to get familiar with than I was used to from small RL games.) It was by pure chance that I happened to finally notice that the 11.1 endgame post was where signups for the next beginner game were taking place - if not I would have just given up since I didn't see any obvious new beginner game signups. And in these beginner games it's mostly experienced players as far as I can tell?

I think we should have small beginner games more often, and perhaps break away from the series model somewhat. Maybe once a week start a beginner game for true beginners. Even if there's only 4 people that sign up and it's obviously unbalanced - assign roles and let them play. Perhaps if it's so unbalanced try to simulate the last day phase or two of a normal game, state at the beginning what we 'know' about each player and then let them argue it out. Point is, let them feel out the game. Then every two or three weeks start a beginner's series game, with mentors for new players, and again keep these games small - but balanced at least this time. Fill in necessary slots with experienced players, but put more effort into getting actual new players to play through the series.

In essence, I think we would be fine to concentrate small short games on beginners and progress them up from there into normal games, which we keep large and long.
Buddamoose
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9/4/2012 11:22:04 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 9/4/2012 10:52:30 AM, maxx233 wrote:

In essence, I think we would be fine to concentrate small short games on beginners and progress them up from there into normal games, which we keep large and long.

Thats what she said
"Reality is an illusion created due to a lack of alcohol"
-Airmax1227

"You were the moon all this time, and he was always there to make you shine."

"Was he the sun?"

"No honey, he was the darkness"

-Kazekirion
Zaradi
Posts: 14,127
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9/4/2012 12:55:31 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
@ Maxx:

I don't feel that player recruitment is the problem, but rather player retention. There are quite a few players that I can remember playing with often that no longer play anymore (or hardly as much). And the appearance of only having one or two games going at one time certainly does not sell activity.

I want to think that the concept of a DDO mafia Tourny would be beneficial to promoting DDO mafia, especially if we got mod cooperation with the effort. I'd say that it wouldn't be all that hard to get Airmax on board with it, but actually planning it and ensuring fairness (since we all know that regardless of what we come up with, someone will certainly protest the system or results), will be a world of its own difficulty.
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F-16_Fighting_Falcon
Posts: 18,324
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9/4/2012 4:12:25 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
Zaradi, I love the idea of a mafia tourney. We should certainly do it. Maybe get the 12 best players on this site and have them play games until there is one winner?

I also agree with Maxx that we should do more beginner games to recruit beginners. But since Drafter has left, I doubt it will pick up. We have to figure out a way and also figure out who is active enough to lead this. Someone like FT would be a good choice. We have to make sure it is someone not just active but also mature enough.

As for player retention, I can only think of a few active players at this moment. Mafia is being abandoned. In fact, I am cancelling my theme game in favor of a classic one.
Logic_on_rails
Posts: 2,445
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9/4/2012 4:20:06 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
If you call 15 players 'small' , then I've always done so.

I think this period of inactivity will pass once America's summer comes to an end. Earlier this year we had an absolutely incredible amount of activity in Mafia. That's not normal. The historical average is 1 or 2 games at once, not 4.

The real test will be when we get to DDO's favourite moderators and see if they can get people to play a Mafia game. Maybe myself, Drafterman, Blue etc.
"Tis not in mortals to command success
But we"ll do more, Sempronius, we"ll deserve it
Zaradi
Posts: 14,127
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9/4/2012 4:33:10 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 9/4/2012 4:12:25 PM, F-16_Fighting_Falcon wrote:
Zaradi, I love the idea of a mafia tourney. We should certainly do it. Maybe get the 12 best players on this site and have them play games until there is one winner?

Actually, I had a different idea (although your idea certainly isn't a bad one by any means). I thought it could be something like a series of games, where the winning side/person would earn a certain number of points for first place, second place, third place, etc. Everyone would be cycled through various affiliations so that points would be scattered and we wouldn't end up with a 3 or 4-way tie for first or something like that. At the end of the series, whoever earned the most points would win the tourny.

I also agree with Maxx that we should do more beginner games to recruit beginners. But since Drafter has left, I doubt it will pick up. We have to figure out a way and also figure out who is active enough to lead this. Someone like FT would be a good choice. We have to make sure it is someone not just active but also mature enough.

I'd volunteer, but my activity is split between this and debate, as well as things that pop up in life. I probably have enough time to do it in the foreseeable future, but further than that is uncertain.

As for player retention, I can only think of a few active players at this moment. Mafia is being abandoned. In fact, I am cancelling my theme game in favor of a classic one.
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Buddamoose
Posts: 19,450
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9/4/2012 5:34:46 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
I have no life but for DDO mafia, webdiplomacy, and my GF. Dont die DDO Mafia!!!!

Speaking of no life, I wouldnt mind running games on a regular basis if its needed, or at least trying to keep the process running smoothly in Drafter's absence
"Reality is an illusion created due to a lack of alcohol"
-Airmax1227

"You were the moon all this time, and he was always there to make you shine."

"Was he the sun?"

"No honey, he was the darkness"

-Kazekirion
Zaradi
Posts: 14,127
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9/4/2012 5:37:32 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 9/4/2012 4:35:01 PM, F-16_Fighting_Falcon wrote:
Zaradi, your way is better. Let's do it. Also affiliations would have to be strictly random.

RNG it is then. Also, we need to come up with a fair point system that equal with respects for the difficulties of winning on each side (town, mafia, TP).

Also, we need to come up with a design that's fair to all sides. Also, would we use the same game design or changing game designs? If so, the different game designs have to be equally weighted.

Your thoughts F-16?
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F-16_Fighting_Falcon
Posts: 18,324
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9/4/2012 5:37:37 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 9/4/2012 5:34:46 PM, Buddamoose wrote:
I have no life but for DDO mafia, webdiplomacy, and my GF. Dont die DDO Mafia!!!!

Speaking of no life, I wouldnt mind running games on a regular basis if its needed, or at least trying to keep the process running smoothly in Drafter's absence

Yeah, budda is another great candidate. We should all nominate and elect and mafia president. Drafter was the de-facto leader of mafia until now but we need someone to step into his shoes. Someone who doesn't shy away from playing beginner games or ICing (which makes many good players a poor choice for this).
Buddamoose
Posts: 19,450
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9/4/2012 5:42:41 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
Whats IC'ing?
"Reality is an illusion created due to a lack of alcohol"
-Airmax1227

"You were the moon all this time, and he was always there to make you shine."

"Was he the sun?"

"No honey, he was the darkness"

-Kazekirion
F-16_Fighting_Falcon
Posts: 18,324
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9/4/2012 5:43:51 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 9/4/2012 5:37:32 PM, Zaradi wrote:
At 9/4/2012 4:35:01 PM, F-16_Fighting_Falcon wrote:
Zaradi, your way is better. Let's do it. Also affiliations would have to be strictly random.

RNG it is then. Also, we need to come up with a fair point system that equal with respects for the difficulties of winning on each side (town, mafia, TP).

Also, we need to come up with a design that's fair to all sides. Also, would we use the same game design or changing game designs? If so, the different game designs have to be equally weighted.

Your thoughts F-16?

We should have a standard setup with nothing too crazy. Win points should be counted as a percentage of likelihood that you will win. If there are 12 players with 4 mafia and 8 town, then winning as mafia should count as twice as much - since it is harder anyways.

Game designs we can get from mafiascum: 9 players, cop, doc, roleblocker, godfather, and 5 vanillas.

Chosen mafia.

Werewolf mafia.

These are all really standard and fun.
Buddamoose
Posts: 19,450
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9/4/2012 5:48:19 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 9/4/2012 5:44:23 PM, F-16_Fighting_Falcon wrote:
At 9/4/2012 5:42:41 PM, Buddamoose wrote:
Whats IC'ing?

Experienced player playing beginner games and coaching noobs.

Oh, I love beginner's games :)

Anyways, as for the mafia tournament idea. I would say some good set-ups might be:

1 Cop
1 Doc
1 Vig
4 Vanillas

1 Godfather
1 Roleblocker
1 Goon

OR

1 Tracker
1 Watcher
1 Bodyguard
1 Bulletproof
3 Vanillas

1 Ninja
1 Redirector
1 Goon

OR

1 Doc
1 Bulletproof
1 Mason Recruiter
1 Tracker

1 Roleblocker
2 Goons

And I have many more for 10 man games, or games of any size. Creating balanced games is a simple task for me
"Reality is an illusion created due to a lack of alcohol"
-Airmax1227

"You were the moon all this time, and he was always there to make you shine."

"Was he the sun?"

"No honey, he was the darkness"

-Kazekirion
FourTrouble
Posts: 12,777
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9/4/2012 8:43:57 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
I'm down to coach any new players or to run a game now and then. I think a tournament would be fun, too.

I have another idea for something I'd be interested in doing - games that revolve around mafia choosing their teammates. I kind of got the idea from bluesteel's game where recruiting my team made the game a lot of fun for me. So, say, we could have a random player chosen as a mafia captain at the start of each game, and then they can pick the rest of their team. The next game, another random player gets to be mafia captain. I dunno how people might feel about that, since it might overpower mafia, but as long as enough good players are involved, there would always be a nice distribution of good players on both town and mafia. Thoughts?
IFLYHIGH
Posts: 5,223
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9/4/2012 8:49:04 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 9/4/2012 8:43:57 PM, FourTrouble wrote:
I'm down to coach any new players or to run a game now and then. I think a tournament would be fun, too.

I have another idea for something I'd be interested in doing - games that revolve around mafia choosing their teammates. I kind of got the idea from bluesteel's game where recruiting my team made the game a lot of fun for me. So, say, we could have a random player chosen as a mafia captain at the start of each game, and then they can pick the rest of their team. The next game, another random player gets to be mafia captain. I dunno how people might feel about that, since it might overpower mafia, but as long as enough good players are involved, there would always be a nice distribution of good players on both town and mafia. Thoughts?

I think it would be a some what easy to pick out mafia if this is done. For example, Mestari and BV would be guaranteed scum.
Buddamoose
Posts: 19,450
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9/4/2012 8:51:25 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
Thats WIFOM. I'd totes pick all noobs haha.
"Reality is an illusion created due to a lack of alcohol"
-Airmax1227

"You were the moon all this time, and he was always there to make you shine."

"Was he the sun?"

"No honey, he was the darkness"

-Kazekirion
Buddamoose
Posts: 19,450
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9/4/2012 8:53:27 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 9/4/2012 8:52:08 PM, johnnyboy54 wrote:
I would prefer if the mafia tournament was not open set. But that is my opinion.

I was thinking the best idea would be to have multiple potential set-ups. That way its not known what set-up is being used. Semi-open would be the word for it i guess
"Reality is an illusion created due to a lack of alcohol"
-Airmax1227

"You were the moon all this time, and he was always there to make you shine."

"Was he the sun?"

"No honey, he was the darkness"

-Kazekirion
IFLYHIGH
Posts: 5,223
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9/4/2012 8:56:18 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 9/4/2012 8:51:25 PM, Buddamoose wrote:
Thats WIFOM. I'd totes pick all noobs haha.

Lol then that sucks because they make mistakes and make it easy for town to pick out scum.
johnnyboy54
Posts: 6,362
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9/4/2012 8:56:39 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 9/4/2012 8:53:27 PM, Buddamoose wrote:
At 9/4/2012 8:52:08 PM, johnnyboy54 wrote:
I would prefer if the mafia tournament was not open set. But that is my opinion.

I was thinking the best idea would be to have multiple potential set-ups. That way its not known what set-up is being used. Semi-open would be the word for it i guess

That would be a lot better. It could also make the fake claiming dynamic more interesting.
I didn't order assholes with my whiskey.
Buddamoose
Posts: 19,450
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9/4/2012 8:57:04 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 9/4/2012 8:56:18 PM, IFLYHIGH wrote:
At 9/4/2012 8:51:25 PM, Buddamoose wrote:
Thats WIFOM. I'd totes pick all noobs haha.

Lol then that sucks because they make mistakes and make it easy for town to pick out scum.

They take orders well though :)
"Reality is an illusion created due to a lack of alcohol"
-Airmax1227

"You were the moon all this time, and he was always there to make you shine."

"Was he the sun?"

"No honey, he was the darkness"

-Kazekirion
johnnyboy54
Posts: 6,362
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9/4/2012 8:58:27 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 9/4/2012 8:57:04 PM, Buddamoose wrote:
At 9/4/2012 8:56:18 PM, IFLYHIGH wrote:
At 9/4/2012 8:51:25 PM, Buddamoose wrote:
Thats WIFOM. I'd totes pick all noobs haha.

Lol then that sucks because they make mistakes and make it easy for town to pick out scum.

They take orders well though :)

Sometimes.
I didn't order assholes with my whiskey.
BlackVoid
Posts: 9,170
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9/4/2012 9:48:29 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 9/4/2012 8:43:57 PM, FourTrouble wrote:
I'm down to coach any new players or to run a game now and then. I think a tournament would be fun, too.

I have another idea for something I'd be interested in doing - games that revolve around mafia choosing their teammates. I kind of got the idea from bluesteel's game where recruiting my team made the game a lot of fun for me. So, say, we could have a random player chosen as a mafia captain at the start of each game, and then they can pick the rest of their team. The next game, another random player gets to be mafia captain. I dunno how people might feel about that, since it might overpower mafia, but as long as enough good players are involved, there would always be a nice distribution of good players on both town and mafia. Thoughts?

That's be interesting, especially if we lynched the mafia leader.

"Ok, so naturally he would pick all the experienced players to be mafia. But knowing we would think that, he will actually pick all noobs. But he would also predict we would think that, so its actually the experienced players after all. But its also possible that he picked 1 noob and 3 experienced. But predicting that train of thought, he would actually do 2 and 2. However, if he could predict our prediction of his prediction, he would actually..."

WIFOM to the max.

I like it though because it spices up the game some, and you can still say "anyone can be mafia" since the leader can pick noobs to confuse people.
Logic_on_rails
Posts: 2,445
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9/5/2012 4:09:26 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
Just a small note, but the tournament structure eliminates modding creativity and puts no value on player creativity in fake claiming. Certain players cultivate such skills and certain ways of analysing situations. To judge players from a tournament which lacks this is to ensure inaccurate rankings.
"Tis not in mortals to command success
But we"ll do more, Sempronius, we"ll deserve it