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Noob Rule VS Inactive Rule

FourTrouble
Posts: 12,757
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9/4/2012 11:43:03 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
I never really understood the obsession so many players have with the widely-accepted "noob rule." I've had noticed that I've had better early-game success when I've used a different strategy, such as pressuring experienced players or pressuring inactive players or pressuring players who are notoriously difficult to read. I noticed that bluesteel recently started trying different early game strategies as well, also to good effect. I'd like to suggest, then, that the "noob rule" has lost its usefulness - it is no longer effective.

The majority of mods try to balance their game by making sure the mafia is composed of predominantly experienced players. For instance, in Mestari's last game, he wanted to randomize the roles but was forced to handpick the mafia - it was THAT important to the game's overall balance that good players ended up on the mafia. It is issues like these - mod psychology in particular - that have negated the value of putting early pressure on noobs. So instead of blindly following the SOP, game after game (which itself is another thing I don't like about a lot of the players here on DDO mafia), why not adjust our strategies and rules after every couple of games? Why have players stuck with the noob rule for so long?

I think it's time players start experimenting more, trying out different strategies and tactics. The game of mafia seems so complex to me, and by limiting ourselves to the same old strategies, it'll take THAT much longer to uncover new tactics and secrets to the game. The first major change I'd like to see to the current SOP is a shift from the noob rule to the inactive rule, which Budda introduced and I'm currently trying out. Instead of pressuring noobs, pressure players who are notoriously inactive... Although the rule seems very intuitive to me, it's not hard to quickly see some of the advantages that follow from using it: 1) the fact that noobs tend to be placed on town will inevitably increase the likelihood of pressuring mafia on DP1, 2) since the biggest threat to the town's success is inactive players who slide by under the radar, the inactive rule speeds up the game by pressuring these players immediately, and 3) it encourages players to be more active! I don't think I can overstate the importance of this third point.

F-16 recently made a post about how good players often tend to lead as town, but then become more inactive as mafia. This makes it much more difficult to catch them, which is why the inactive rule would force players to be active even when they're mafia if they don't want to come under pressure DP1. And it seems obvious that mafia wants to avoid DP1 pressure, as that is when they are most vulnerable - before they understand the game's design well-enough to come up with solid claims. I dunno, the idea of the inactive rule just seems far stronger to me intuitively than the noob rule, from a town-perspective. I'd love to hear what other players think about this though. Is there any reason to prefer the noob rule? Are there any other alternatives to the noob rule, or SOP in general, that you'd like to see introduced?
Buddamoose
Posts: 19,448
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9/4/2012 11:50:19 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
You stealin my idea!!!
"Reality is an illusion created due to a lack of alcohol"
-Airmax1227

"You were the moon all this time, and he was always there to make you shine."

"Was he the sun?"

"No honey, he was the darkness"

-Kazekirion
Buddamoose
Posts: 19,448
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9/4/2012 11:51:58 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
Though I agree with all of this 100%. this rule, much like the replacement rule I have in my game, actually does increase activity.

I was actually contemplating whether or not to suggest that we implement some standard rules throughout mafia games, the "replacement rule" being one of them if people think its a good idea
"Reality is an illusion created due to a lack of alcohol"
-Airmax1227

"You were the moon all this time, and he was always there to make you shine."

"Was he the sun?"

"No honey, he was the darkness"

-Kazekirion
Buddamoose
Posts: 19,448
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9/4/2012 11:52:50 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
An organized rule system, would be more friendly to newer players I would think.
"Reality is an illusion created due to a lack of alcohol"
-Airmax1227

"You were the moon all this time, and he was always there to make you shine."

"Was he the sun?"

"No honey, he was the darkness"

-Kazekirion
IFLYHIGH
Posts: 5,223
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9/4/2012 11:55:10 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
I might try out pressuring experienced or inactive people once. I agree that the reasons for pressuring inactives before noobs make more sense, but unfortunately the majority of the mafia community doesn't feel the need to go against SOP. Maybe it's time to lead a revolution!

I wonder how they pressure people on DP1 on mafiascum? To my knowledge, they don't use the noob rule.
FourTrouble
Posts: 12,757
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9/4/2012 11:58:33 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 9/4/2012 11:55:31 PM, BlackVoid wrote:
90% of the time, the noob rule and the inactive rule are going to end up hitting the same people.

I dunno about that. Some of the really new players like ishall and maxx have always been active, and I'm pretty sure Budda, myself, daytona, and bossy were ALWAYS active, even when we were all noob. I think this only holds if by noob you refer exclusively to bad players...
johnnyboy54
Posts: 6,362
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9/4/2012 11:58:51 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
I mostly agree. But Blackvoid makes a good point. The new players do tend to be more inactive.
I didn't order assholes with my whiskey.
BlackVoid
Posts: 9,170
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9/5/2012 12:02:07 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 9/4/2012 11:58:33 PM, FourTrouble wrote:
At 9/4/2012 11:55:31 PM, BlackVoid wrote:
90% of the time, the noob rule and the inactive rule are going to end up hitting the same people.

I dunno about that. Some of the really new players like ishall and maxx have always been active, and I'm pretty sure Budda, myself, daytona, and bossy were ALWAYS active, even when we were all noob. I think this only holds if by noob you refer exclusively to bad players...

Hm, Bossy and Daytona are always inactive in my experience.

Overall I support the rule and would go with it if I was given the opportunity. I just think that on balance, inactives tend to also be newer players, so its not a huge change. Its not a criticism, just a note.
F-16_Fighting_Falcon
Posts: 18,324
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9/5/2012 12:36:26 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
Let's face it, no one wants to be pressured to give up their role first. If they are mafia, they will be forced to think up a fake-claim. If they are a town power role, they will be forced to give it up and be vulnerable to manipulation by the mafia. Look at Budda's death in Avatar for instance. Also, sure you can say that if someone claims cop, doc might protect them. But what if there isn't a doc or the doc is dead. What if you are the doc and there isn't a watcher? What if you are the watcher? I remember in the quickfire game, you were cop who got two guilties YET didn't out your role. Medic, we all know never outs his role come hell or high water. Point is, regardless of affiliation, you don't want to be pressured first.

I disagreed with the noob rule initially. I even debated Danielle on it. Obviously I wasn't at my best since I not only lost, other people like LDF starting linking the debate after using the noob rule to pressure noobs. Anyways, I went against the strategy whenever possible. It was Logic who inadvertently convinced me that it was a good idea. He was going off of the logic that it is better to be persuasive than combative.

Anyways, the way I see it, noob rule is simply a way for experienced players to not have to claim early because they don't want to. In practice, whenever someone pressured experienced players, they were pressured in response. See Dragonball_Z mafia and Miscellaneous mafia for two examples.

Also, if you pressure experienced players, you will likely be pressured in response so you might have to out your role as well. Overall it isn't perfect. I think it is time we change.

I particularly like Budda's "inactive rule." Pressuring inactives and getting their role claims out of the way is great since we don't have to worry about them anymore. It also actually HELPS the town overall rather than just protecting experienced players with power roles. This is in addition to the benefits being listed by Budda and FT. So, yes, we should certainly pressure inactive players if we have no other leads to go on.
Buddamoose
Posts: 19,448
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9/5/2012 1:17:40 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
Lurking scum lurks
"Reality is an illusion created due to a lack of alcohol"
-Airmax1227

"You were the moon all this time, and he was always there to make you shine."

"Was he the sun?"

"No honey, he was the darkness"

-Kazekirion
Logic_on_rails
Posts: 2,445
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9/5/2012 4:07:28 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
People have never understood the new player rule.

It doesn't mean 'pressure the most inexperienced player' , it means, 'if a completely new player, or a player whom very, very few people have played with before is in a game, pressure them' . The new player rule does not apply in the VAST majority of situations, people merely misconstrue it to apply. After a beginner series most players should have the fundamentals down. The new beginners ought to be pressured for one or 2 games until at least some players on DDO understand the player to a degree, lest they be unreadable. After that the new player rule is totally unreliable. In my games in the past there have been no beginners; the new player rule was ridiculously inapplicable and people joked about it.

Following that it's really quite arbitrary (although the Mafia will try to manipulate 'arbitrary' decisions ... people used to have to link to RNG sites based on the player list to determine who to pressure to prevent this) . Inactivity might be a good rule... but it prolongs the DP and can potentially bore people. I tend to pay little attention to DP 1 for instance, and lengthening it doesn't help.

The fact is that you're attacking a fiction, albeit one that many players have fallen for. The reason it's so alluring to many people is that the experienced players don't want to claim earlier - they use their status to prolong the time till they claim and forge subtle alliances and such. Not claiming early is based on the exact same reasoning as not killing good players early. Go start forcing claims off good players, but realise that to be consistent you should also start killing such players as Mafia. Personally, I like avoiding claiming early because as Mafia orchestration is my speciality, and you can't do that DP 1.

And, as FT pointed out, creating a rule means being predictable, and hence Mafia can manipulate the DPs based on that rule occurring. On the other hand, if rules constantly change Mafia can direct their votes to 'randomly' pressure townies more easily. It's a difficult balance to achieve.

I'll leave it at that for now. Suffice to say, the current SOP mis-interprets the original intent. Finally, I'm happy to avoid claiming early...
"Tis not in mortals to command success
But we"ll do more, Sempronius, we"ll deserve it
daytonanerd
Posts: 6,769
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9/5/2012 7:16:58 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 9/5/2012 12:02:07 AM, BlackVoid wrote:
At 9/4/2012 11:58:33 PM, FourTrouble wrote:
At 9/4/2012 11:55:31 PM, BlackVoid wrote:
90% of the time, the noob rule and the inactive rule are going to end up hitting the same people.

I dunno about that. Some of the really new players like ishall and maxx have always been active, and I'm pretty sure Budda, myself, daytona, and bossy were ALWAYS active, even when we were all noob. I think this only holds if by noob you refer exclusively to bad players...

Hm, Bossy and Daytona are always inactive in my experience.

Overall I support the rule and would go with it if I was given the opportunity. I just think that on balance, inactives tend to also be newer players, so its not a huge change. Its not a criticism, just a note.

I don't think I have played in a regular game with you yet. Let's try one of these days.
#FeeltheFreezerBern