Total Posts:22|Showing Posts:1-22
Jump to topic:

DDO Mafia Tourney

Zaradi
Posts: 14,124
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
9/5/2012 11:43:35 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
So since my Small Games v. large games thread got de-railed from discussion of this, I thought it would be beneficial to set up a thread for this so it has a prayer of getting off the ground and going.

So far what we have decided on is this:

We should get a tournament going (durr).
The structure of the tournament will be a series of games decided on points. Points will be decided by winning, which is modified by difficulty of winning on a side. Specific point values have yet to be decided. How many games is also to be decided as of now.

Structures of each games is still being debated. Some are saying that more simple structured games, while others, such as myself, support balanced, yet normal-styled games that we currently play.

For right now, let's go ahead and get people who want to mod for these going, regardless of structure. Of course those who mod cannot compete (I will volunteer of course since I'm making it xD) but if someone else wants to pitch in and help then that's great. Probably don't need more than one or two others.

1.
2.

And, of course, we need people to compete in the tourney. As of right now let's just see how many people we get and then structure games around the number of competitors.

1.
2.
3.
4.
5.
6.
7.
8.
9.
10.
11.
12.
13.
14.
15.
Want to debate? Pick a topic and hit me up! - http://www.debate.org...
MilitaryAtheist
Posts: 1,058
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
9/5/2012 11:47:00 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 9/5/2012 11:43:35 AM, Zaradi wrote:
So since my Small Games v. large games thread got de-railed from discussion of this, I thought it would be beneficial to set up a thread for this so it has a prayer of getting off the ground and going.

So far what we have decided on is this:

We should get a tournament going (durr).
The structure of the tournament will be a series of games decided on points. Points will be decided by winning, which is modified by difficulty of winning on a side. Specific point values have yet to be decided. How many games is also to be decided as of now.

Structures of each games is still being debated. Some are saying that more simple structured games, while others, such as myself, support balanced, yet normal-styled games that we currently play.

For right now, let's go ahead and get people who want to mod for these going, regardless of structure. Of course those who mod cannot compete (I will volunteer of course since I'm making it xD) but if someone else wants to pitch in and help then that's great. Probably don't need more than one or two others.

1.
2.

And, of course, we need people to compete in the tourney. As of right now let's just see how many people we get and then structure games around the number of competitors.

1.
2.MA
3.
4.
5.
6.
7.
8.
9.
10.
11.
12.
13.
14.
15.
socialpinko
Posts: 10,458
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
9/5/2012 11:47:27 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
Sign me up for spot 6.
: At 9/29/2014 10:55:59 AM, imabench wrote:
: : At 9/29/2014 9:43:46 AM, kbub wrote:
: :
: : DDO should discredit support of sexual violence at any time and in every way.
:
: I disagree.
Buddamoose
Posts: 19,448
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
9/5/2012 11:48:29 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
Zaradi, heres what I was thinking. Say we have 11 people sign up. Well each one of those people who sign up create a game. Then like a round robin style thing, each game is played, chosen randomly in succession. This way at the end we have an expansive enough data pool, AND those who mod games still get to play.

Of course one could play in the game they created. So really it would be say, if 14 people signed up, there would be a total of 14 games with 13 total people in each respective game. Saavy?

Obviously this would take awhile, but the whole point would be to create a tournament in which we can clearly point to someone and go, "thats the definite winner." not just play a few games, and have it come up that "oh they got lucky in a few games."
"Reality is an illusion created due to a lack of alcohol"
-Airmax1227

"You were the moon all this time, and he was always there to make you shine."

"Was he the sun?"

"No honey, he was the darkness"

-Kazekirion
MilitaryAtheist
Posts: 1,058
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
9/5/2012 11:50:00 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
but if someone else wants to pitch in and help then that's great. Probably don't need more than one or two others.

1.
2.

And, of course, we need people to compete in the tourney. As of right now let's just see how many people we get and then structure games around the number of competitors.

1.
2.MA
3.
4.
5.
6.
7.
8.
9.SP
10.
11.
12.
13.
14.
15.
Buddamoose
Posts: 19,448
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
9/5/2012 11:53:23 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
The only thing stopping me from signing up as a mod is that I want to play also...
"Reality is an illusion created due to a lack of alcohol"
-Airmax1227

"You were the moon all this time, and he was always there to make you shine."

"Was he the sun?"

"No honey, he was the darkness"

-Kazekirion
Zaradi
Posts: 14,124
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
9/5/2012 12:01:37 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
@ Budda:

While your idea is arguably better in design, the time necessary to go through 10-15 games is almost certaintly to lose interest after game 5 or 6. As well as people cropping up and losing activity due to life issues and the inability to replace without causing skewing of the data.

If we just have selected mods create a series of, say, 4-5 games, then we have a conclusive enough set of data to determine a winner and still have a fair shot of keeping everyone interested throughout.
Want to debate? Pick a topic and hit me up! - http://www.debate.org...
Buddamoose
Posts: 19,448
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
9/5/2012 12:15:01 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 9/5/2012 12:01:37 PM, Zaradi wrote:
@ Budda:

While your idea is arguably better in design, the time necessary to go through 10-15 games is almost certaintly to lose interest after game 5 or 6. As well as people cropping up and losing activity due to life issues and the inability to replace without causing skewing of the data.

If we just have selected mods create a series of, say, 4-5 games, then we have a conclusive enough set of data to determine a winner and still have a fair shot of keeping everyone interested throughout.

I like your point about inactivity. Perhaps it'd be best to try and limit whomever joins according to certain conditions.

Such as:

- Experience
- Activity Levels
- Skill

Etc.

Also, we still would need to determine what type of games will be played. Some questions thay would need answering:

1) Will we keep the set-ups orthodox?
2) Will Third-Parties be involved?
3) Will the games focus more on behavioral analysis, or results?

And i'm sure there are many others. You already know my opinion on the first one, that orthodox games, are the ones that are the easiest to not only keep balanced, but will give a more accurare result in determining placing.

As for Third-Parties, I'd like to see them excluded. As maintaining perfect balance while including third parties, tho possible, is difficult. Not only this its arguably much more difficult to win as third-party, and thus, if someone ended upveing third party it woul put them in a rather unfair position.

As for the focus pf the games, my opinion, just like that of orthodox games, is that the focus should be on behavipral analysis and not results. Orthodox games make this a much easier task to accomplish. Unorthodox games shift the focus completely most of the time, and usually end up creating situations in which behavioral analysis is thrown out the window in favor of analyzing results and game mechanics.
"Reality is an illusion created due to a lack of alcohol"
-Airmax1227

"You were the moon all this time, and he was always there to make you shine."

"Was he the sun?"

"No honey, he was the darkness"

-Kazekirion
Buddamoose
Posts: 19,448
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
9/5/2012 1:07:33 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
We could also hypthothetically split the grouping into two groups. So say we have 14 people sign up, split it into two groups of seven.

Each of the groups then plays 3-5 games. After those, the top (X) points finishers from each group then advance to the "final lobby." Where the points are then reset and another series of games is played.

^^I actually genuinely like this idea. As it would allow mods to play at the same time(mod the other groups games while playin in the other) while still keeping the amount of games to a minimum. Thoughts?
"Reality is an illusion created due to a lack of alcohol"
-Airmax1227

"You were the moon all this time, and he was always there to make you shine."

"Was he the sun?"

"No honey, he was the darkness"

-Kazekirion
Zaradi
Posts: 14,124
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
9/5/2012 1:18:52 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 9/5/2012 12:15:01 PM, Buddamoose wrote:

I like your point about inactivity. Perhaps it'd be best to try and limit whomever joins according to certain conditions.

Such as:

- Experience
- Activity Levels
- Skill

I feel that the criterions that we could use to restrict access so as to promote activity would put us in a bit of a double-bind, specifically on activity and skill. I tend to notice that players like Bossy, who arguably aren't high in skill or experience, tend to be fairly active regardless, and that people like Logic_On_Rails, or even F-16 at times, who are very strong players, but have tendencies to be inactive fairly often. So it puts us in a bit of a harder spot than if we just didn't have restrictions period. I understand what you're trying to get at, and even agree we should pursue it, but that the way you want to go about it won't get us there.

I also don't really have a suggestion on how to get there, so idk what else we can do except just go with no entry restrictions.

Etc.

Also, we still would need to determine what type of games will be played. Some questions thay would need answering:

1) Will we keep the set-ups orthodox?
2) Will Third-Parties be involved?
3) Will the games focus more on behavioral analysis, or results?

And i'm sure there are many others. You already know my opinion on the first one, that orthodox games, are the ones that are the easiest to not only keep balanced, but will give a more accurare result in determining placing.

Sure, but orthodox games tend to not stretch player's ability and skill to any sort of limit and tend to be....generic, to say the least. Unorthodox games, while a little bit harder to balance (not impossible to balance, mind you, just harder to balance), tend to be more challenging and more fun for players and would probably be better overall.

As for Third-Parties, I'd like to see them excluded. As maintaining perfect balance while including third parties, tho possible, is difficult. Not only this its arguably much more difficult to win as third-party, and thus, if someone ended upveing third party it woul put them in a rather unfair position.

Of course, but third-parties are often, almost always, included in standard games of DDO mafia. To exclude them would be to exclude part of DDO mafia, and certainly playing as TP is a skill we should all be at least adequate at, if not okay just in general. While we would have to adjust the scoring scale to account for the difficulty of winning as TP, it shouldn't be excluded just because it's difficult.

As for the focus pf the games, my opinion, just like that of orthodox games, is that the focus should be on behavipral analysis and not results. Orthodox games make this a much easier task to accomplish. Unorthodox games shift the focus completely most of the time, and usually end up creating situations in which behavioral analysis is thrown out the window in favor of analyzing results and game mechanics.

While behavioral analysis is all well and good, analyzing how a game is working or how results are coming are not skills we should just completely disregard. The tournament should be able to test all the skills that are either needed or used in DDO games, as to test overall skill and not popular skill. So while I agree that we shouldn't structure the games around results and mechanics entirely, but we shouldn't just throw it out the window entirely.
Want to debate? Pick a topic and hit me up! - http://www.debate.org...
daytonanerd
Posts: 6,769
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
9/5/2012 2:28:23 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 9/5/2012 11:50:00 AM, MilitaryAtheist wrote:
but if someone else wants to pitch in and help then that's great. Probably don't need more than one or two others.

1.
2.

And, of course, we need people to compete in the tourney. As of right now let's just see how many people we get and then structure games around the number of competitors.

1.
2.MA
3.
4.
5.
6.
7.
8.
9.SP
10.
11.
12.
13. Daytonanerd
14.
15.
#FeeltheFreezerBern
Buddamoose
Posts: 19,448
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
9/5/2012 3:19:27 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
I see where ur coming from Zaradi. However considering its a tournament we are hosting we want to make sure the games themselves all at least follow some baseline rules in design.

The thing I have against unorthodox games mostly in regards to a tournament such as this is what I like to call, "swing factor." Essentialy unorthodox games have a greater swing factor, and this is what makes them more challenging to balance. As the games themselves have a tendency to swing wildly in favor of one side or the other, with very little the plagers can do themselves about it. Games such as these would quite literallly create in innacurate portrayal of of skill level, and make the results on the points awarded less accurate.

Imbalance is my biggest issue, and the way I see that beig surefire avoided is to create orthodox games. By the way, in Orthodox games its not all about behavioral analysis. Analysis on game mechanics and other things along those lines is still very much useable, it is just that more emphasis is placed upon behavioral analysis. Which, any player worth their salt, will tell you, behavioral analysis is more useful than any result, or argument from Game mechanics or mod psych, or balance.

The true "skill" in this game comes from being able to analyze other peoples behavior and either manipulate that person, or determine their affiliation using that analysis. Ergo, Unorthodox games give you the best of both worlds, while keeping the game balanced, and still provide plenty of challenge to all players in the game.
"Reality is an illusion created due to a lack of alcohol"
-Airmax1227

"You were the moon all this time, and he was always there to make you shine."

"Was he the sun?"

"No honey, he was the darkness"

-Kazekirion
Buddamoose
Posts: 19,448
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
9/5/2012 3:20:45 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
*Orthodox games give you the best of both worlds.
"Reality is an illusion created due to a lack of alcohol"
-Airmax1227

"You were the moon all this time, and he was always there to make you shine."

"Was he the sun?"

"No honey, he was the darkness"

-Kazekirion
F-16_Fighting_Falcon
Posts: 18,324
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
9/5/2012 5:00:09 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
Regarding skill level, I think we should have a barrier to entry. I am not trying to be mean but if we let CapLlock/Militant Atheist play, he will probably be replaced in the first game that is hosted. Same with Vmpire. When has vmpire EVER posted ANY sort of legitimate analysis on mafia in HIS LIFE? It is not the same as Logic who posts analysis every post even if the posting is infrequent. We have to have open sign ups and then VOTE the top 16 players to participate in the tournament (8 in group A and 8 in group B maybe?) - sort of like a preliminary round to be eligible to participate. I can tell that most experienced players wouldn't want to play a game with flakers/people who are guaranteed to be replaced.

Regarding orthodox games, a question: define an orthodox game and give about 5-10 examples with reasons. For instance, would you consider any of my games orthodox? I am asking because I really have no idea how you are defining the term. For instance, I keep minimal swing in my games but try to keep them "unorthodox" by way of unique/creative or reversed roles.
maxx233
Posts: 498
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
9/5/2012 6:05:31 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
I would like to participate. I was thinking either

A) entrance barriers are kept relatively low, in which case sign me up for slot 13

B) entrance barriers are kept high, in which case I would love to get my feet wet as an assistant mod if that doesn't seem too counter productive to the point of entrance barriers ;) I figure if barriers are high there aren't that many people available to play, so no point tying more of those people up as administrative roles.

Of course I understand if neither turn out to be an option though too.
Buddamoose
Posts: 19,448
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
9/5/2012 6:30:30 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
F-16, Orthodox means to me that the game Itself relies more on behavioral analysis as opposed to results, so misinformative roles are what I would consider Orthodox still.

But unorthodox games would be where say, there is no doc or cop, or say there is a mafia watcher or tracker. Thats unorthodox, because mafia generally dont have "pro-town" roles. Or say roles like, mastermind, quack, baker, etc. that are rarely seen, are more so unorthodox than orthodox. Flavors also, are something I would consider unorthodox. Essentially, to me, orthodox games are relatively straightforward with maybe a twist or two thrown in. But unorthodox games are where there are so many curveballs, it becomes an overtly confusing game.

Games such as:

Once Upon A Time
Beginner's games

Would be Orthodox

Games such as:

Bluesteels
F-16's

Etc. would be unorthodox.
"Reality is an illusion created due to a lack of alcohol"
-Airmax1227

"You were the moon all this time, and he was always there to make you shine."

"Was he the sun?"

"No honey, he was the darkness"

-Kazekirion
Buddamoose
Posts: 19,448
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
9/5/2012 6:37:34 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
To throw out some examples:

1 Cop
1 Doc
1 BP
4 vanillas

2 goons
1 godfather

I would consider orthodox

However games that are overloaded with power roles and flavors and misinformation are unorthodox. All those things are ok, but in moderation. Going overboard just results in a confusing game much like Bluesteels games.

Also, ur previous game, Action Movies, i would consider unorthodox simply because there were roles that were not only out of the ordinary, but a few that had never been seen before.

As for some baseline conditions for entry:

- Must have completed beginner's series.
- Must post considerably thoughtful analysis in games
- Must have played in at least 3 Regular Games, 1 of which must have been as mafia.
- Must be a relatively active player.
"Reality is an illusion created due to a lack of alcohol"
-Airmax1227

"You were the moon all this time, and he was always there to make you shine."

"Was he the sun?"

"No honey, he was the darkness"

-Kazekirion
Buddamoose
Posts: 19,448
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
9/5/2012 6:39:14 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
Not to say a game can't have a cop or a doc and still be considered orthodox, but its more so unorthodox unless balanced correctly
"Reality is an illusion created due to a lack of alcohol"
-Airmax1227

"You were the moon all this time, and he was always there to make you shine."

"Was he the sun?"

"No honey, he was the darkness"

-Kazekirion
caveat
Posts: 2,137
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
9/6/2012 8:11:34 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
I should have internet, and consequently be active, by the time this rolls around.
There is an art, it says, or rather, a knack to flying. The knack lies in learning how to throw yourself at the ground and miss. " Clearly, it is this second part, the missing, which presents the difficulties.
Buddamoose
Posts: 19,448
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
9/7/2012 11:09:30 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
Sign me up to be a player. And if wr implement my idea, of two groups, I'll be a mod too :)

But if not, I can't seeing as modding and playing at the same time is a strict no-no for obvious reasons.
"Reality is an illusion created due to a lack of alcohol"
-Airmax1227

"You were the moon all this time, and he was always there to make you shine."

"Was he the sun?"

"No honey, he was the darkness"

-Kazekirion