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BG Mafia DP2

FourTrouble
Posts: 12,757
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9/11/2012 1:19:52 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
DP2

Active Players

1. IFLY
2. johnny
3. maxx233
4. VK
5. TUF
6. Buddamoose
7. Airmax
8. Mestari
9. LK
10. royal
11. JM(2)
12. Zaradi
13. Daytonanerd
14. caveat
15. Logic
16. socialpinko

Dead

JM - Number Three - You ignored the Cylon taboo against searching for the Final Five, and thus became the leader of the rebel Cylons. Your knowledge of who the Final Five are makes you the delayed sensor. You can only sensor a lynch if you have claimed your role in the preceding DP. You win with the town.

It takes 9 votes to lynch.
airmax1227
Posts: 13,240
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9/11/2012 1:25:20 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
Did JM even post in the last DP?

Kind of a random mafia NK... but that might have been wise of them.

Anyone have any results?

I milled during the NP.
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socialpinko
Posts: 10,458
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9/11/2012 4:21:25 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
I gave up on reading the last 100 posts of the last Dp. Can I assume it was just more of what was going on before? Did mestari ever claim?
: At 9/29/2014 10:55:59 AM, imabench wrote:
: : At 9/29/2014 9:43:46 AM, kbub wrote:
: :
: : DDO should discredit support of sexual violence at any time and in every way.
:
: I disagree.
royalpaladin
Posts: 22,357
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9/11/2012 5:37:52 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
The Night Kill was an F_16-style kill. He usually kills newer players first. That obviously doesn't mean that he is Mafia (necessarily), but it's something to note. It just adds more evidence against him.

Let's get results and then lynch F_16.
maxx233
Posts: 498
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9/11/2012 6:26:55 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 9/11/2012 4:21:25 AM, socialpinko wrote:
I gave up on reading the last 100 posts of the last Dp. Can I assume it was just more of what was going on before? Did mestari ever claim?

There's so much I'd love to say since I took my vow of silence on the issue for the remainder of last DP... But I think I should simply summarize it like this: No, Mestari never claimed.

We obviously need to hear of any important leads that surfaced over the night, but in the mean time on the basis of necessity I'll pick back up where I left off, VTL Mestari for a claim. Let's try to keep this DP from falling apart like last time, it should be fairly obvious that wasn't beneficial for the town. The simplest facts at this point are these:

1) If Mestari doesn't want to claim he doesn't have to claim.
2) If the town wants to lynch Mestari we can lynch Mestari for any reason
3) Whether Mestari agrees that the town's reasons for lynching him are legitimate or not is irrelevant - he will still die even if he disputes all 9 votes against him.
4) Upon death it will be revealed whether Mestari is town, mafia, third party, whatever. If he IS town and takes his claim to the grave as he's insisted he would then he will have done the town in this game a disservice by allowing a preventable town death.

That's as simple as I can think to put it, and I recommend we keep this DP simple.
royalpaladin
Posts: 22,357
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9/11/2012 6:30:33 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 9/11/2012 6:26:55 AM, maxx233 wrote:
At 9/11/2012 4:21:25 AM, socialpinko wrote:
I gave up on reading the last 100 posts of the last Dp. Can I assume it was just more of what was going on before? Did mestari ever claim?

There's so much I'd love to say since I took my vow of silence on the issue for the remainder of last DP... But I think I should simply summarize it like this: No, Mestari never claimed.

We obviously need to hear of any important leads that surfaced over the night, but in the mean time on the basis of necessity I'll pick back up where I left off, VTL Mestari for a claim. Let's try to keep this DP from falling apart like last time, it should be fairly obvious that wasn't beneficial for the town. The simplest facts at this point are these:

1) If Mestari doesn't want to claim he doesn't have to claim.
2) If the town wants to lynch Mestari we can lynch Mestari for any reason
3) Whether Mestari agrees that the town's reasons for lynching him are legitimate or not is irrelevant - he will still die even if he disputes all 9 votes against him.
4) Upon death it will be revealed whether Mestari is town, mafia, third party, whatever. If he IS town and takes his claim to the grave as he's insisted he would then he will have done the town in this game a disservice by allowing a preventable town death.

That's as simple as I can think to put it, and I recommend we keep this DP simple.

The town would do a disservice to an excellent player by having him killed for silly reasons. What is your reason for having Mestari claim?
royalpaladin
Posts: 22,357
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9/11/2012 6:31:04 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
Are there any real reasons to have Mestari claim, or are people still bandwagoning on the nonsense about how he insulted F_16?
maxx233
Posts: 498
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9/11/2012 6:31:50 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 9/11/2012 5:37:52 AM, royalpaladin wrote:
The Night Kill was an F_16-style kill. He usually kills newer players first. That obviously doesn't mean that he is Mafia (necessarily), but it's something to note. It just adds more evidence against him.

Let's get results and then lynch F_16.

TUF replaced F16 before the NP
maxx233
Posts: 498
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9/11/2012 6:39:49 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 9/11/2012 6:30:33 AM, royalpaladin wrote:
At 9/11/2012 6:26:55 AM, maxx233 wrote:
At 9/11/2012 4:21:25 AM, socialpinko wrote:
I gave up on reading the last 100 posts of the last Dp. Can I assume it was just more of what was going on before? Did mestari ever claim?

There's so much I'd love to say since I took my vow of silence on the issue for the remainder of last DP... But I think I should simply summarize it like this: No, Mestari never claimed.

We obviously need to hear of any important leads that surfaced over the night, but in the mean time on the basis of necessity I'll pick back up where I left off, VTL Mestari for a claim. Let's try to keep this DP from falling apart like last time, it should be fairly obvious that wasn't beneficial for the town. The simplest facts at this point are these:

1) If Mestari doesn't want to claim he doesn't have to claim.
2) If the town wants to lynch Mestari we can lynch Mestari for any reason
3) Whether Mestari agrees that the town's reasons for lynching him are legitimate or not is irrelevant - he will still die even if he disputes all 9 votes against him.
4) Upon death it will be revealed whether Mestari is town, mafia, third party, whatever. If he IS town and takes his claim to the grave as he's insisted he would then he will have done the town in this game a disservice by allowing a preventable town death.

That's as simple as I can think to put it, and I recommend we keep this DP simple.

The town would do a disservice to an excellent player by having him killed for silly reasons. What is your reason for having Mestari claim?

I honestly don't even remember anymore and I don't have time to go back and reference it all. I came to find Mestari's behavior increasingly suspicious, that's what I know. Ultimately, his persistence that he would take his claim to the grave if we didn't give him reasons that he approved of for him to claim is not excellent play in my book. Unless you're scum and SOMEHOW manage to get away with that play - then good on you. Despite the pressure the fact that we're now in the next DP has given him that much more time to realize the pressure is on and come up with a good fake claim. Plenty of people have claimed at this point too, so again, perhaps you're onto something - perhaps it is great play.
royalpaladin
Posts: 22,357
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9/11/2012 6:46:28 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 9/11/2012 6:39:49 AM, maxx233 wrote:
At 9/11/2012 6:30:33 AM, royalpaladin wrote:
At 9/11/2012 6:26:55 AM, maxx233 wrote:
At 9/11/2012 4:21:25 AM, socialpinko wrote:
I gave up on reading the last 100 posts of the last Dp. Can I assume it was just more of what was going on before? Did mestari ever claim?

There's so much I'd love to say since I took my vow of silence on the issue for the remainder of last DP... But I think I should simply summarize it like this: No, Mestari never claimed.

We obviously need to hear of any important leads that surfaced over the night, but in the mean time on the basis of necessity I'll pick back up where I left off, VTL Mestari for a claim. Let's try to keep this DP from falling apart like last time, it should be fairly obvious that wasn't beneficial for the town. The simplest facts at this point are these:

1) If Mestari doesn't want to claim he doesn't have to claim.
2) If the town wants to lynch Mestari we can lynch Mestari for any reason
3) Whether Mestari agrees that the town's reasons for lynching him are legitimate or not is irrelevant - he will still die even if he disputes all 9 votes against him.
4) Upon death it will be revealed whether Mestari is town, mafia, third party, whatever. If he IS town and takes his claim to the grave as he's insisted he would then he will have done the town in this game a disservice by allowing a preventable town death.

That's as simple as I can think to put it, and I recommend we keep this DP simple.

The town would do a disservice to an excellent player by having him killed for silly reasons. What is your reason for having Mestari claim?

I honestly don't even remember anymore and I don't have time to go back and reference it all. I came to find Mestari's behavior increasingly suspicious, that's what I know. Ultimately, his persistence that he would take his claim to the grave if we didn't give him reasons that he approved of for him to claim is not excellent play in my book. Unless you're scum and SOMEHOW manage to get away with that play - then good on you. Despite the pressure the fact that we're now in the next DP has given him that much more time to realize the pressure is on and come up with a good fake claim. Plenty of people have claimed at this point too, so again, perhaps you're onto something - perhaps it is great play.

I don't see any valid reason in here. You first say that you found Mestari to be suspicious, but you do not explain how; your excuse is that you do not want to go back and read the day phase. I would like a valid reason as to why his behavior was suspicious. Most people just bandwagoned on F_16's nonsense, which I completely refuted and which ultimately boiled down to OMGUS. At the point that that is true, you guys were pressuring him for pressuring F_16.

Second, you say that refusing to claim for invalid reasons (i.e. F_16's OMGUS) is scummy, which is nonsense. Mestari and I already explained to everyone that if we reward the town for bandwagoning on hogwash reasoning, it makes it easier for the Mafia to get town claims and get townies lynched. At the point that this is true, Mestari's refusal to claim for illegitimate reasons is pro-town behavior. In addition, there have been several instances in which townie players have refused to claim because they were pressured for nonsensical reasons. Drafterman did this several times as a townie, and I have done it previously as well. Refusing to claim for illegitimate reasons is not anti-town behavior and is not restricted to scum, so it cannot be a general scumtell. You may claim that it is Mestari's scumtell, but since Mestari has never done this before, and it is not a general scumtell, it cannot be indicative of scum-type behavior from him.
jm_notguilty
Posts: 683
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9/11/2012 9:53:14 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 9/11/2012 1:25:20 AM, airmax1227 wrote:
Did JM even post in the last DP?

Kind of a random mafia NK... but that might have been wise of them.

Anyone have any results?

I milled during the NP.

I claimed last DP because I thought there'd be a lynch. Since my role was informative, the NK was not random at all.

Can we get some info? Cop? Tracker?

Also, VTL Mestari for pressure.
IFLYHIGH
Posts: 5,223
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9/11/2012 1:19:00 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
Yes! A readable DP!

@Royal, your hardcore buddying with Mestari is discontenting. Your statement "The town would do a disservice to an excellent player by having him killed for silly reasons" makes it seem as if you are certain Mestari is town. There isn't really many reasons to believe Mestari is town at this point, so I don't know why you are defending him so hard. One thing in your favor though is that you did do the same thing in companies(with the exact same person might I add), so I'm not sure how valid this point is.

I will also add that your use of player psych is incredible scummy. Why assume F-16 is the only player who likes to kill newer players? Didn't you argue in a previous game why player psych is invalid?

I'm going to go on and VTL Royal for a claim. After Royal, we can move onto Mestari or one of the inactives.
IFLYHIGH
Posts: 5,223
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9/11/2012 1:21:31 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
Also, I'm thinking F-16/TUF is town. The only reason I can think F-16 would be replaced is out of frustration. Why would he be frustrated as scum? I don't think F-16 is the type of person to be a sore loser and cry every time he gets FOS'd as scum. Just my two cents worth.

I'll probably be logged off until later this afternoon because of school.
caveat
Posts: 2,137
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9/11/2012 2:12:45 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
Checking in. Still internet-less at home... will be back in a couple of hours.
There is an art, it says, or rather, a knack to flying. The knack lies in learning how to throw yourself at the ground and miss. " Clearly, it is this second part, the missing, which presents the difficulties.
royalpaladin
Posts: 22,357
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9/11/2012 3:00:07 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 9/11/2012 1:19:00 PM, IFLYHIGH wrote:
Yes! A readable DP!

@Royal, your hardcore buddying with Mestari is discontenting. Your statement "The town would do a disservice to an excellent player by having him killed for silly reasons" makes it seem as if you are certain Mestari is town. There isn't really many reasons to believe Mestari is town at this point, so I don't know why you are defending him so hard. One thing in your favor though is that you did do the same thing in companies(with the exact same person might I add), so I'm not sure how valid this point is.

I think Mestari is town based on the fact that F_16 is most likely Mafia and Mestari provided solid testimony against him earlier. I am not saying that I know for a fact that Mestari is town; I am only saying that I am certain that he is based on his playstyle. Theories involve making a few assumptions along the way. If I'm uncertain about everything, I will not get anything accomplished. I cannot know for certain if anybody is town. That shouldn't prevent me from reading behavior and making moves and assumptions based on my reads, however.
I will also add that your use of player psych is incredible scummy. Why assume F-16 is the only player who likes to kill newer players? Didn't you argue in a previous game why player psych is invalid?

No, I have never argued that player psychology is invalid.

F_16 is the only person I know of who kills newer players. Most people kill medium players first, and people like social and LK kill good players first.
I'm going to go on and VTL Royal for a claim. After Royal, we can move onto Mestari or one of the inactives.

There's literally no reason for this. I'm not sure why the FOS was placed on me as opposed to the obvious scum, F_16.
royalpaladin
Posts: 22,357
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9/11/2012 3:01:08 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 9/11/2012 1:21:31 PM, IFLYHIGH wrote:
Also, I'm thinking F-16/TUF is town. The only reason I can think F-16 would be replaced is out of frustration. Why would he be frustrated as scum? I don't think F-16 is the type of person to be a sore loser and cry every time he gets FOS'd as scum. Just my two cents worth.

I'll probably be logged off until later this afternoon because of school.

This is completely false. I can provide evidence of F_16's behavior following this type of pattern through such games as Golden Garden and Countries Mafia. He was even incredibly rude to LDF when she caught him being scum.
royalpaladin
Posts: 22,357
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9/11/2012 3:02:22 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
I think that it's weird that IFLY, who did not even post at all last DP except to say that he was catching up, doesn't find F_16's behavior fishy. Somehow the fact that F_16 got angry and quit the game over insults that were four-five months old is indicative of him being town.

I wouldn't mind getting IFLY's claim before we lynch F_16.
Mestari
Posts: 4,656
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9/11/2012 3:04:18 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
If anybody was roleblocked last night say so now. It may or may not be important.
Rules of Mafia

1. Mestari is never third party.
2. If Mestari claims an intricate and page long TP role, he's telling the truth.
3. Mestari always jointly wins with the town.
3b. If he doesn't he's mafia.
3c. If he was mafia you wouldn't suspect him in the first place.
4. If you lynch Mestari you will lose because he will be the third party Doctor or some other townie power role.
5. DP1 lynches are good.
6. The answer is always no.
socialpinko
Posts: 10,458
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9/11/2012 3:57:39 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
Royal, I noticed you're now explicitly saying f-85 (tuf) ought to be lynched. Now we can discuss your decidedly low standards required to advocate lynching. As I said before, psycho-analyzation is useful but usually only to get the ball rolling on who to pressure and investigate and then later on as a tool for analyzing possible discrepencies in investigative results. You seem to hold it as an end all tool though and I'm not sure whether I think you're scummy simply due to methodological differences or because you really are being scummy.

Psycho-analyzation I hold in lower regard then you or mestari seem to. You think being willing to lynch someone for refusing to claim is scummy. I think willing to die just so you don't have to claim is equally if not more scummy though. The problem is there are different situations in which each of us could be right but there's no way to know for sure which scenario were in at this point. Your buddying with mestari may just be methodological similarity but your total faith in psychological analysis is definitely too aggresssive and definitely not helping the town.
: At 9/29/2014 10:55:59 AM, imabench wrote:
: : At 9/29/2014 9:43:46 AM, kbub wrote:
: :
: : DDO should discredit support of sexual violence at any time and in every way.
:
: I disagree.
royalpaladin
Posts: 22,357
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9/11/2012 4:08:09 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 9/11/2012 3:57:39 PM, socialpinko wrote:
Royal, I noticed you're now explicitly saying f-85 (tuf) ought to be lynched. Now we can discuss your decidedly low standards required to advocate lynching. As I said before, psycho-analyzation is useful but usually only to get the ball rolling on who to pressure and investigate and then later on as a tool for analyzing possible discrepencies in investigative results. You seem to hold it as an end all tool though and I'm not sure whether I think you're scummy simply due to methodological differences or because you really are being scummy.

Psycho-analyzation I hold in lower regard then you or mestari seem to. You think being willing to lynch someone for refusing to claim is scummy. I think willing to die just so you don't have to claim is equally if not more scummy though. The problem is there are different situations in which each of us could be right but there's no way to know for sure which scenario were in at this point. Your buddying with mestari may just be methodological similarity but your total faith in psychological analysis is definitely too aggresssive and definitely not helping the town.

Your total faith in the results does not help town either. Behavior is more important than results, especially since results can easily cause problems for the town. The Godfather, the Miller, Framers, Lawyers, roles that plant fake results like the Ninja role you had in Harry Potter, etc. all hinder the town's effort. Mafia, at its core, is a game that is based on analyzing behavior. I think that results are important, but I think that analyzing behavior and claims is much more important for catching scum.
Mestari
Posts: 4,656
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9/11/2012 4:16:24 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
@Logic

Does your character serve on the Battlestar?
Rules of Mafia

1. Mestari is never third party.
2. If Mestari claims an intricate and page long TP role, he's telling the truth.
3. Mestari always jointly wins with the town.
3b. If he doesn't he's mafia.
3c. If he was mafia you wouldn't suspect him in the first place.
4. If you lynch Mestari you will lose because he will be the third party Doctor or some other townie power role.
5. DP1 lynches are good.
6. The answer is always no.
Mestari
Posts: 4,656
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9/11/2012 4:18:42 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 9/11/2012 1:23:26 AM, airmax1227 wrote:
Well I think it's safe to say that Cylons don't equal mafia...

I think JM's role indicates that the final five are the mafia.
Rules of Mafia

1. Mestari is never third party.
2. If Mestari claims an intricate and page long TP role, he's telling the truth.
3. Mestari always jointly wins with the town.
3b. If he doesn't he's mafia.
3c. If he was mafia you wouldn't suspect him in the first place.
4. If you lynch Mestari you will lose because he will be the third party Doctor or some other townie power role.
5. DP1 lynches are good.
6. The answer is always no.
socialpinko
Posts: 10,458
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9/11/2012 4:18:56 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
This is what's happening. I'm saying we should take both methods into account. Psycho analyzation to start and to analyze investigative discrepencies. So without investigative results theres prima facie no justification for lynching. If everyone posts and we still don't have anything we should pressure for claims (of course lets hope everyone doesn't just say they don't have reason to and threaten to take it to the grave) and lynch based off of those. Just deciding to lynch tuf without recourse to results or not in conjunction with any other pressuring is way too aggressive.
: At 9/29/2014 10:55:59 AM, imabench wrote:
: : At 9/29/2014 9:43:46 AM, kbub wrote:
: :
: : DDO should discredit support of sexual violence at any time and in every way.
:
: I disagree.
socialpinko
Posts: 10,458
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9/11/2012 4:23:38 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 9/11/2012 4:18:42 PM, Mestari wrote:
At 9/11/2012 1:23:26 AM, airmax1227 wrote:
Well I think it's safe to say that Cylons don't equal mafia...

I think JM's role indicates that the final five are the mafia.

That would make around 11 or 12 town to 5 mafia then, possibly overpowering mafia by sheer numbers.
: At 9/29/2014 10:55:59 AM, imabench wrote:
: : At 9/29/2014 9:43:46 AM, kbub wrote:
: :
: : DDO should discredit support of sexual violence at any time and in every way.
:
: I disagree.
Mestari
Posts: 4,656
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9/11/2012 4:25:50 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
Why do you assume every member of the Final Five is in the game?
Rules of Mafia

1. Mestari is never third party.
2. If Mestari claims an intricate and page long TP role, he's telling the truth.
3. Mestari always jointly wins with the town.
3b. If he doesn't he's mafia.
3c. If he was mafia you wouldn't suspect him in the first place.
4. If you lynch Mestari you will lose because he will be the third party Doctor or some other townie power role.
5. DP1 lynches are good.
6. The answer is always no.
socialpinko
Posts: 10,458
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9/11/2012 4:32:17 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 9/11/2012 4:25:50 PM, Mestari wrote:
Why do you assume every member of the Final Five is in the game?

I suppose that's possible.
: At 9/29/2014 10:55:59 AM, imabench wrote:
: : At 9/29/2014 9:43:46 AM, kbub wrote:
: :
: : DDO should discredit support of sexual violence at any time and in every way.
:
: I disagree.
Mestari
Posts: 4,656
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9/11/2012 4:35:58 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
Just to keep this DP from going in the wrong direction, I will be claiming this DP. No I won't need any votes to do so. I just want a few questions answered first as they are relevant to the impact that my claim may or may not have.
Rules of Mafia

1. Mestari is never third party.
2. If Mestari claims an intricate and page long TP role, he's telling the truth.
3. Mestari always jointly wins with the town.
3b. If he doesn't he's mafia.
3c. If he was mafia you wouldn't suspect him in the first place.
4. If you lynch Mestari you will lose because he will be the third party Doctor or some other townie power role.
5. DP1 lynches are good.
6. The answer is always no.
socialpinko
Posts: 10,458
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9/11/2012 4:39:53 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 9/11/2012 4:35:58 PM, Mestari wrote:
Just to keep this DP from going in the wrong direction, I will be claiming this DP. No I won't need any votes to do so. I just want a few questions answered first as they are relevant to the impact that my claim may or may not have.

Did anyone claim last Dp?
: At 9/29/2014 10:55:59 AM, imabench wrote:
: : At 9/29/2014 9:43:46 AM, kbub wrote:
: :
: : DDO should discredit support of sexual violence at any time and in every way.
:
: I disagree.