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Philosophers Mafia Endgame

socialpinko
Posts: 10,458
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9/26/2012 4:53:33 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
Game's over. Survivor wins (MiG who replaced LK). Town gets second. Mafia gets third.
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.
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===Living Players at the end of the game===

1. Budda- town
2. Johnny- town
3. MiG- TP
4. Zaradi- town

===Characters and Roles===

1. Daytona
You are Peter Singer. Apart from your normative opinions on such issues as infanticide and zoophilia, your primary philosophical perspective is from preference utilitarianism. This has led you to the view that leaving others to starve and die unnecessarily is morally indefensible. Once during the game you may sacrifice yourself during the Np so that you die instead of the mafia kill target.

2. Fourtrouble- Ludwig Wittgenstein- LD- town
3. Daytona (2)- Descartes- Gf + 1x nin/jan- mafia
4. DNinja- Thales- vanilla- town
5. Sportsguru (1)- Aristotle- investigative JOAT (cop, role cop, watcher)- town

6. Sportsguru (2)
You are Gottfried Leibniz. A philosopher of mathematics, theology, logic, and metaphyics, your contributions to contemporary philosophical thought are far reaching. Perhaps the idea of yours which is used most today is the concept of possible worlds, wherein the existence of alternate worlds is used to express modal claims like necessity and contingency. Every night you may transport one player to another possible world, incapacitating them for the Np. You are the roleblocker and win with the mafia.

7. Maxx
You are William James. You are best known as a pioneering philosopher in the topic of pragmatism One of your main contributions to the school was your pragmatic theoy of truth, wherein propositions are true which prove useful. You are the lawyer/framer. Every night you may alternate between framing someone to make them appear guilty and lawyering someone to make them appear innocent. Your role is alternating so you may not use the same role two nights in a row. You win with the mafia.

8. Koopin
You are Socrates. Considered by many to be the most important philosopher to have lived, you were forever immortalized when you were put to death by the Athenian government on trumped up charges of impiety and corrupting the youth. Your death was one of the worst days in all philosophy. If you are lynched, the town will lose an entire Dp. You win with the town.

9. Zaradi
You are Karl Marx. Even though you contributed heavily to philosophical thought, from human nature to the philosophy of history, when someone mentions your name today images of the various brutal Communist regimes of the 20th century. You are the miller and come up guilty upon investigation. You win with the town.

Secret mod note: Zaradi was a death miller and would have shown up as an ordinary mafia goon if he had ever died.

10. F-59399
You are Jeremy Bentham. You were primarily known during your lifetime for your championing of various radical liberal causes. But philosophically speaking, you retain influence as one of the most lasting contributors to utilitarianism. You held utility (well being, happiness) to be of primary importance. Therefore you are the doctor. However, owing to the fact that what is utilitarian is not always the same, your action only has a 50% chance of succeeding. You win with the town.

11. Man-is-good
You are Diogenes of Sinope. As a proponent of Cynicism, you held self sufficiency and living in accordance with nature as being of utmost value. While reasonable sounding, your presentation of your philosophy (urinating in public, sleeping in a tub, etc.) alienated you from most other members of society. You are the survivor and win if you are alive at the end of the game.

12. Johnnyboy
You are David Hume. You're not so much known for your own positive theories as you are for your scathing deconstruction of numerous strongly held concepts, among them causality, induction, morality, the self; none of these were immune to your criticism and refutation. You are the vigilante. Every night you may pick one player to kill. You win with the town.

13. Buddamoose
You are John Locke. Besides heavily influencing the ideals of the American Revolution and the subsequent American government, you are known primarily as one of the leaders of British empiricism (the philosophical theory that knowledge comes only from experience). You are the cop. Every night you may investigate one person to determine their allegiance. However, since experience is necessary, you may only investigate those who have posted in the Dp. You win with the town.

Np1 actions:

1. F-84847337373773- protected Maxx
2. Fourtrouble- checked Zaradi's IWWTT statement
4. Royal- killed Lk (redirected to Daytona)
6. Buddamoose- investigated F-539
7. SportsGuru- role copped Ft
9. Maxx- framed Budda
10. Ishallannoymyself- RB'd DNinja
11. Johnnyboy- Waived
13 Daytonanerd- sacrificed himself. He was killed instead of the mafia's target, Lk.

Np2 actions:

1. F-84847337373773- himself
6. Buddamoose- investigated Daytona
7. SportsGuru- copped Budda (RB'd)
9. Maxx- lawyered himself/ targeted F-5949 to kill
10. Ishallannoymyself- RB'd Sportsguru
11. Johnnyboy- killed Daytona

Np3 actions:

1. F-84847337373773- himself
6. Buddamoose- investigated Johnny
7. SportsGuru- copped Budda (since his actions were 1x and his cop role was Rb's the night before)
9. Maxx- framed Koopin/ killed Sg(1)
10. Ishallannoymyself- RB'd F-5939
11. Johnnyboy- Waived

Np4 actions:

1. F-84847337373773- himself
6. Buddamoose- (I didn't wait since the Dp ended anyways)
9. Maxx- kill Koopin/ lawyered Maxx
11. Johnnyboy- Maxx

===Notes===

(A) I obviously overpowered the town accidentally with their investigative roles. Philosophy is about attaining ultimate knowledge so I didn't think I could do it any other way. That's why I gave the mafia a lawyer/framer and a GF. The problem is they were terribly unlucky in their choices and were never successful in lawyering or framing the person investigated. I also tried to help the mafia out by making the LD 2x and the BG 50/50 and giving the town a death miller. I really tried to help the mafia out in the setup but luck wasn't on their side. I even let them know I didn't use any Stoics, Skeptics, or Epicureans. Sg claimed doctor (perhaps it wasn't standard when he used to play) and Daytona/Royal claimed LD made it virtually impossible for them to win.

(B) The trouble on Dp2 and was really unfortunate and I hope it doesn't happen in the future. Royal got into a flame war with F-5949 and Ft got supremely pissed at the town for not playing well. It was actually interesting when Daytona claimed full time LD Fourtrouble managed not to CC him at all which was hilarious. Please in the future everyone try to be civil during the game.

(C) Budda's analysis of the characters was close but not exactly correct. For this game I didn't stick to any official rubric in assigning affiliations. The reason the town tended towards Aristotle and empiricists was because I chose affiliation based on my opinion of the philosopher. That's why Plato and William James were town, because I hate them and why David Hume was a power role, because I love him. The only person I made town who I didn't like was Jeremy Bentham (fvcking utilitarians piss me off) was because I couldn't think of anyone else for a protective role. I definitely plan on sticking to certain themes when I do philosophers mafia in the future.

MVP of the game: tied between F-5938 and Budda.
: At 9/29/2014 10:55:59 AM, imabench wrote:
: : At 9/29/2014 9:43:46 AM, kbub wrote:
: :
: : DDO should discredit support of sexual violence at any time and in every way.
:
: I disagree.
maxx233
Posts: 498
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9/26/2012 6:15:42 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
Other than killing me, good game town. Things definitely didn't work out for us with luck - Budda made some really odd choices for investigative targets and that actually panned out quite nicely for town whether it was intentional or not! Royal's LD soft claim that she didn't follow through on also hurt - it put daytona in an awful spot when he took over and just the fact that he managed as well as he did was pretty impressive to me. I wasn't being *completely* dishonest in defending daytona ;)

Anyway, F16, you played well throughout the game and had us pinned sooner than I would have liked at the end. The only way we could have possibly pulled it off would have been if koopin's death was in fact mourned with a night kill, and if johnny had taken out MIG, and if Budda had *finally* investigated me as innocent. I didn't see it happening ;) Well played
F-16_Fighting_Falcon
Posts: 18,324
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9/26/2012 6:15:43 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
Anyways, Spinko, the game was great. Town was definitely powerful. I don't know what the mafia could have fake-claimed though. Sure, they had a janitored role for one of them, and the GF and Framer/Lawyer were pretty powerful as well, but overall luck wasn't on their side and a town vig in a 13 player game really screwed them over. I would say town played moderately well but we made a few mistakes and managed to win anyways. FT should never have been lynched. DNinja basically just gave up. These lynches were too easy and detrimental so I am glad we made it to the end. Had scum been given solid fake-claims of some kind, it would have been much harder.

I still want to know why Johnny was ignoring me at the end of last DP when I told him that if he shoots Maxx, MIG wins. If he shot MIG, we could have lynched Maxx and got first place rather than just beating the mafia.

I agree that DP2 was bad - it was mainly just Royal. Nobody else had a flame war with her. As far as I remember, FT and I simply refused to engage her and ignored her insults so it wasn't a flame war like in BG. I think this approach worked well.

Anyways, I don't know a lot about philosophers so if I were mafia, I would have found it extremely difficult especially with Budda's research, so mafia did well surviving that long. Maxx kinda gave himself away at the end though. If Maxx had voted SG and let Zaradi delay the DP, Zaradi would have been the one in the hot seat the next DP.

Overall, I had a lot of fun. Thanks, Spinko, for modding.
maxx233
Posts: 498
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9/26/2012 6:20:35 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
Oh yeah... I think the only stroke of luck we had was getting FT lynched... I was pretty shocked at that, I thought we were gonna take it when that happened. But then it came out that there was a vig when Daytona died in the night, AND it became pretty clear that F16 was doctor when the kill on him was blocked after Budda made a WIFOM call for the Doc to be on him, AND Budda of course did not investigate to our liking ;) I think it was pretty well sealed after that NP
johnnyboy54
Posts: 6,362
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9/26/2012 6:28:17 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
Sorry about my mistake and my general inattentiveness to mafia recently. I didn't realize what I had done until Social confirmed the kill.
I didn't order assholes with my whiskey.
Buddamoose
Posts: 19,448
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9/26/2012 6:28:45 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
Good game to all. Urgh Johnny, darn you!!

Oh well, still a good game from all. I'm surprised my theory was close. Once I saw FT's first character, I thought it was pretty well scrapped.

My MVP vote goes to F-16 for sure

Mafia MvP to Maxx for managing to squirrel out of that FoS DP3.
"Reality is an illusion created due to a lack of alcohol"
-Airmax1227

"You were the moon all this time, and he was always there to make you shine."

"Was he the sun?"

"No honey, he was the darkness"

-Kazekirion
F-16_Fighting_Falcon
Posts: 18,324
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9/26/2012 6:31:35 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
Agreed with Maxx as the mafia MVP but I'd say town MVP was definitely Budda. I was waiting for his research like it was golden and was suspicious of people who he said their characters didn't match. I mean, I was so glad budda was town in this game. He carried the entire town after DP2 (when FT(1) got lynched). I think your research was what completely screwed over the mafia.
socialpinko
Posts: 10,458
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9/26/2012 6:33:03 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
I feel like every time I mod a game I get just a little better at balance. The fact that TP won this and mafia won the last game makes me feel like I've gotten a lot better at balance, though town should have won this game.

Philosophers- TP won
Marxism- mafia won
As vs. CC- town won
Tarantino- town won
Anarchism- TP won
AnCapitalism- town won

As you can see my games have tended to be town favored and I'm working on that. Come to think of it I've only hosted six games? That can't be right.
: At 9/29/2014 10:55:59 AM, imabench wrote:
: : At 9/29/2014 9:43:46 AM, kbub wrote:
: :
: : DDO should discredit support of sexual violence at any time and in every way.
:
: I disagree.
socialpinko
Posts: 10,458
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9/26/2012 6:34:36 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 9/26/2012 6:28:45 PM, Buddamoose wrote:
Good game to all. Urgh Johnny, darn you!!

Oh well, still a good game from all. I'm surprised my theory was close. Once I saw FT's first character, I thought it was pretty well scrapped.

My MVP vote goes to F-16 for sure

Mafia MvP to Maxx for managing to squirrel out of that FoS DP3.

Your theory was actually pretty well thought out. You don't seem to be a philosophy buff so the fact that you put that all together is impressive. And sorry for leading the town on about the theme affiliation, I just like empiricists more than rationalist and pragmatists!
: At 9/29/2014 10:55:59 AM, imabench wrote:
: : At 9/29/2014 9:43:46 AM, kbub wrote:
: :
: : DDO should discredit support of sexual violence at any time and in every way.
:
: I disagree.
maxx233
Posts: 498
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9/26/2012 7:01:46 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
For mafia, I really do think Daytona and Guru did well with what they were handed! The constant switch-up of mafia hadn't helped things at all though... When SG got replaced in I was offline for a long time and didn't get a chance to advise him before he had to claim. Had I been around I could have told him that we pretty much knew F16 was doc, but it was all over by the time I got on :( I was hoping Johnny would take care of MIG for the good of all, and Budda would investigate me innocent finally lol May not have saved it for us, but it was the best chance we had by that point

Thanks for modding social - it was a fun game!
SportsGuru
Posts: 1,648
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9/26/2012 8:27:12 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
Sg claimed doctor (perhaps it wasn't standard when he used to play) and Daytona/Royal claimed LD made it virtually impossible for them to win.

As far as the doctor claim, yeah docs were standard, but I had no real choice considering the role claim I was handed.

Had ishall/ft stayed with Leibniz as a character claim, it lent itself to a very convincing commuter claim, a role that in and of itself is not a very hard sell. However, with the Epicurus role-claim, I could either try to wiggle out of the claim by saying FT was farking crazy and false claimed again, something I doubt would of worked, or make a role claim based on Epicurus.

Since I had to throw his scientific work out the window, as the town was overflowing with investigative roles already, all I had left to claim with was the "everyone needs to be happy philosophy" which pretty much only lends itself to doctor/doctor's assistant. The assistant would make the town much OP, especially concerning how whatever ability I would give it would interact with what ended up being a 50/50 doctor, meaning my strategy became about cutting losses and doing what I accused F-16 of doing.

Bring out the real doctor (didn't know maxx already knew who that was), hopefully getting him lynched and waste a day phase (ideally, the doc would of been one of the other 4 players under suspicion, making it a much easier sell). Since I could just role-block the vig, we would both stay alive and maxx would kill budda. Next day phase, town would lynch me, wasting another day and maxx can put himself in good postion by leading the lynch. He would also push for the vig to take out MIG, taking away the survivor win. With the next night phase having the vig and MIG dead, maxx would be outnumbered, but all he would have had to do is convince the town that either the miller or princess (both possible mafia claims) were bs. at which point the mafia would win the game

So yeah, the plan had quite a few ifs, but its all I had.
FourTrouble
Posts: 12,757
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9/26/2012 9:44:08 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
I think the game-design is not terrible, although the town was definitely over-powered. social's games make it very difficult for mafia because there are not enough townies that can reasonably be mislyched (given their role) in relation to the number of mislynches necessary for the mafia to win. The vig can swing either way, so it's not the killing-power that makes the vig pro-town: it's the fact that a vig is a confirmable role, something the mafia in social's games never have. That would be the one recommendation I'd make in terms of design: give mafia a confirmable role or mod-psychology is gonna make it easy to predict your next game.

In terms of the game itself, I had a horrible time. In many ways, it turned me off of mafia on DDO unless enough good players are involved to make it fun. I don't need to go into detail about this, but suffice to say: I get called scummy and a bad player for FOS'ing a lot of people... when I only FOS'ed a total of four people, three of whom were scum. Worse, I get called scummy for FOS'ing the right people, refuse to claim when its obvious the DP needs to end in daytona's lynch... and I get lynched instead. It does not follow logically, and had a few more good players been in the game to get Zaradi and Budda off my back, I don't think that would have happened.
F-16_Fighting_Falcon
Posts: 18,324
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9/26/2012 11:52:37 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
FT, I get why it is frustrating when someone who should obviously be lynched isn't lynched. It happenned to me in DDO players mafia - Mestari was mafia and got a guilty on him and got cc'd as well but town kept pushing for my claim. I didn't claim and I was also inactive leading to me getting lynched. I don't know how much of it was due to refusal to claim and how much due to town getting tired of flaming from Royal, but the refusal to claim definitely played a part. Anyways, I hardly ever refuse to claim despite the circumstances which results in rarely being lynched.

For instance, when Budda asked for my character claim, I didn't want to give it thinking it might give away info about my role but gave it anyways because it is more important to do everything in your power to convince town that you are town and not get mislynched. Also, when I cc'd SG, I didn't think it was fair that I had to role-paraphrase because he was the one getting cc'd and I was the one who had an inno on me. But I did it anyways immediately upon being asked - and I think being frank really convinced Johnny and the others that I was town. I listed night actions as well as my reasoning - SG didn't do any of that. So, being open is important even if you think it is unfair.

You have also applied this policy to others. For instance in my Action Shows game, you wanted Medic to claim but his lack of claiming convinced you to lynch him at LYLO. Compare that to claiming as soon as you are asked despite the cop investigating you innocent.

Anyways, the DP you were lynched, I was initially telling Budda and Zaradi to just lynch Daytona and stop focussing on you so much (I don't think I changed my vote from Daytona at all), but the fact that you fake-claimed and admitted to fake-claiming was just way over the top. Add to that, your character did not match Budda's list for the first time made me wonder if you were mafia despite earlier being certain that you were town. At that point, we pushed for a role claim which you refused to give and Maxx hammered you before you had the chance. Note that nobody would have asked for a role claim if you had just character claimed like everyone else did - your real character, not a fake-claim.

With that said, I don't agree that lynching you was a good idea. I was ticked off that we missed a surefire mafioso lynch. However, that hammer implicated Maxx and gave him away as scum - this was beneficial to town. He had a janitored role. His paraphrase was legit. The hammer was one of two things (the other was not bussing SG), that allowed us to pinpoint him. So, your mislynch did give us information.

Also, FT, it is a gift to the mafia when townies refuse to claim. You saw how Drafterman was mislynched in Danielle's TV Shows game for not claiming - we were all pretty elated in the mafia PM. I think the best thing to do is give up your character/role when asked to do so. You are a good player. Don't worry about being a target for the mafia. You are already a target for the nightkill.
FourTrouble
Posts: 12,757
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9/27/2012 12:10:50 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
@F-16,

You're absolutely right, I should have just claimed. The truth is, I was really frustrated with the way the game was going, and frustration sometimes drives us to do stupid things. I had in the back of my mind the notion that SportsGuru would be able to confirm my role regardless of how scummy I played, so I had no fears of getting lynched. I just wanted to make sure I'd survive the NP, and that meant taking full advantage of the fact townies thought I was scummy. I guess I put too much faith in the town to lynch daytona. Nonetheless, you are right that claiming is the pro-town thing to do. I personally hate it when people refuse to claim and it's something I'll keep in mind for future games.