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A Not So Quaint Town Endgame

Logic_on_rails
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10/24/2012 1:10:15 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
A hard fought game, with town closer than they thought to winning. If not for some notable inactivity and the absence of the legendary players, town probably would have won.

1st place - Mafia
2nd place - Town (no 3rd parties folks)

Mafia (4)

Social / Johnny - Richard Harbrook " You are a man with refined tastes and an appreciation of many things that the majority of people are ignorant of, as well as being a man who detests overzealous ideologues. It"s for this reason that you"d like a certain degree of control over people, and that"s why you"re the head of a major media corporation " The Keido Group, an international conglomerate of people like you who understand the world as it should be.

However, magicians are a destabilising force. At least, you and The Keido Group think so. You want to eradicate rival magicians, and you are using the sentiment created by the Anti-Magicians Alliance (a separate entity, and not a rival affiliation - doesn't exist in this game) as a cover for your activities. Note "rival" " you"d like to have a monopoly over magical powers. It"d be brilliant for business, as well as advancing the world in terms of peace, fairness and the like. In the past magicians were needed, but modern technology has eliminated that need, and it"s time to strike.

Being the sort of man you are, you know that image is crucial to success, and that"s why you maintain a prim and proper image. You appear innocent to investigation and are a magician yourself " you use this ability to frame or lawyer a person each night. You win with The Keido Group.

Blackvoid - Hazon Alcon " Modern technology is a brilliant tool for equalising the divide between magicians and non-magicians, when in the hands of a trained person at close quarters. You are the electrocuter. Electrocute a person each night " this will roleblock them, and if you electrocute a person twice they will die " this is separate to the Mafia night kill. You win with The Keido Group.

Caveat - Roberto Sancal " A medical man who has intimate knowledge of the new discoveries in magician physiology... which is to say, you know how to take away their abilities, forever. You are the permanent role disabler, and can disable a person"s role (magician or not) for the rest of the game, a person a night. Your trained medical eye tells you that there"s no other healer aboard the train. There might be people willing to lay down their lives in defence of others, and people with iron constitutions, but there"s no doctor around and you"re sure of it. You win with the Keido Group.

FT (formerly HCP - Anna Ho) " A charming woman with an alluring figure, you are exactly whom the sort of reporter The Keido Group likes to have when "spreading a message" " this is brilliant for fostering dissent among fellow non-magicians. You are a reporter [see below] working for the International News Network. You win with the Keido Group.

Modnote: 4 pieces of info

Reporter Mechanics

As a reporter, you can submit a "news report" to be displayed at the end of each DP. These reports will be instead of the DP end scenes. Now, this report doesn"t have to be true at all. However, reporters will get certain pieces of information at the end of each NP. This information may be useless, or it might be useful. One point " there will be a core piece of information that all reporters receive (useful or useless) ; note: most reporters don"t know about this fact. Anna gets 4 pieces of information a night due to using certain sources. Some reporters get less, nobody gets more.

And that"s right " news is a competitive business. There are multiple reporters around, and they vie for supremacy. I will judge news reports on a variety of things and choose that which appeals most to an undisclosed audience (a fictional audience) . The reports do not have to be serious, factual or anything (depending on the circumstances, these may be beneficial though!). Basically, reporters get information in the NP, and must submit a report by the DP"s end. If they don"t then they aren"t considered for the DP end scene.

Oh, by the way, most reporters are bound to not speak of their knowledge prior to reports in the interests of not losing a reporting edge. You are not. Do whatever you want with facts, but be aware that many people are bound by silence. They can be bound for days and then try and unleash a torrent of facts in one report etc.

Finally, most reporters don"t know half of what you"ve been told here. They report, and as far as they"re concerned that"s it. If you have questions about this mechanic do ask.

[also received some advice and information]

Town (10)

F-16 - Howard Beale " The mad prophet of the airwaves, you"re a rather "unconventional" reporter to put it mildly; not the traditional news reporter, and not even trying to fake tradition somewhat like a sensationalist reporter. This was after you were nearly fired for your share dropping from 16% to 12%. The horror! You are a reporter (see below) . You win with the town.

Modnote: Receives 4 pieces of information. [yes, all were true, some were useless though] May give more details if people want the whole mechanic...

Mestari - Jeremy Doyle " You"re the traditional styled anchorman with many years in news reporting and a serious, factual tone. You aren"t a sensationalist. Maybe that"s why your ratings keep dropping... You are a reporter (see below) . You win with the town.

Modnote: Only 3 pieces of information

IFLY - Professor Maxwell Drey " You are a man with a scintillating intelligence, which combined with your many years of experience in life make you quite discerning, and charming too. You"re the cop " investigate one person per night. You win with the town.

Modnote: Will stop investigating NP 4 and die NP 5. Alexandra never existed, but was meant to help IFLY discover his impending death. Not Scotland Yard.

Social - Mary Wiltshire " You"re the leader of Scotland Yard"s prestigious police force. You"re the head inspector. You win with the town.

Modnote: Only person from Scotland Yard is Laterno [yes, if Social hadn't died NP 2 I would have said 'Laterno resists' ; crucial point]

SportsGuru - Banquo " Noble that you are, you would gladly lay down your life for another. You are the bodyguard " intervene in a struggle each night. You will be killed in any ensuing struggle* though. You will save your target though. You win with the town.

*Struggle also includes electrocution or role disabling.

OneElephant - Annabelle Montaine " You are a very traditional lady who lives by the old ways of life. You are a vanilla. You win with the town.

FourTrouble - Ylena Fern " Adultery and blackmail. You are not an innocent child. You are the miller. However, you"re not just going to state this publicly, lest your reputation disappear forever. You can safely reveal the truth come DP 3 and you will cease to be a miller. Do it before then and you will be rendered voteless and remain a miller the entire game. You win with the town.

Medic - Halette Devereaux " My vivacious and charming young lady, you soothe so very effectively. You are the soothsayer " every odd NP soothe a player and they will lack the ability to commit any act of violence for that night and the next one. People won"t be aware that they have been soothed though. You win with the town.

Modnote: 'On leave' means no reports are submitted.

Continued in next post.
"Tis not in mortals to command success
But we"ll do more, Sempronius, we"ll deserve it
Logic_on_rails
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10/24/2012 4:02:35 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
Modnote 2 for Medic's role: Could sooth the vigilante, bodyguard, electrocuter, role disabler or Mafia night killer and have impacts... critical role.

Maxx - Laterno " You are the head of the Elite Magicians Police Unit " Scotland Yard"s most powerful magicians, who have recently been assigned to deal with the Anti-Magicians Alliance, which has begun to grow more dangerous " violent protesters and rebellious underground camps (like the one in the OP) are proof of this.

Of course, following the events in the OP where your part of the unit was wiped out and you barely escaped alive, things are a little different. You used to be in effect a bulletproof vigilante, but for some reason your magical powers aren"t working properly currently, although they are returning. You are a vanilla for NP 1, can resist any 1 non-lethal Mafia action NP 2 , bulletproof for NP 3 (no resistance though), and on NP 4 and onwards you are the bulletproof vigilante + you are immune from all Mafia actions. Obviously, beware early on in this game before you are a powerhouse. You win with the town.

Modnote: 'Non-lethal' referred to electrocution or role disabling. [Maxx did resist role disabling NP 2 by the way]

Modding

Mixed bag by me here. I made mistakes, but didn't give away too much in my recoveries of these mistakes, and nobody read me well this game. It should be obvious why I intervened DP 2 - IFLY misunderstood his PM (his story was designed for a different storyline!) , would have got the bulletproof vigilante lynched, then the cop would have gone... had to intervene to save the game.

The Caveat roleblocker screw-up was technically resolvable, and was clearly true as per the quote I gave, but I did have to intervene there.

I later idiotically posted Sportsguru's role publicly. I compensated by giving the bulletproof an extra vote that nobody could see, nor could he mention it. If I gave it to anybody else Mafia could have wiped out 2 votes with 1 kill. Probably slightly pro-town move as Sportsguru was disabled, but it also meant F-16 wasn't back in the game on the town side. F-16 being in might have gotten BV or Caveat lynched at the start of DP 4, with a town win on the up.

Game Genesis

Just briefly, but this game was made in about a day, with me recycling all the old town roles (besides Laterno, I substituted a second sane cop who could kill himself (leaving this sneaky role secret) for Laterno; debated between a second sane cop and tracker in this game) and eliminating 3rd parties for a hyper-powerful Mafia. The old game had 4 reporters (1 Mafia, 1 3rd party, 2 town) , and another 3rd party role that's main win condition was to eliminate all reporters! You couldn't have ignored reporters in that game. In this game though there was not 1 battle between reporters. Extremely lame.

OneElephant was partially correct to say that this game had Legend of Korra influences. The electrocuter is partially based on the Lieutenant, but aside from that... all my own invention, with some similarities in story. The old story was more in depth and wholly original though...

Game Balance

After Blaise Massacre with no mislynches I had to surprise, make sure nobody read me etc. Probably helped that we had new (inactive mostly) players aplenty. Also made Mafia very strong this game, but lacking in fake claims. Still had the usual Logicesque traps in play, a return of the head inspector in an unusual way etc.

The Mafia was very strong, and could eliminate the town roles in a flash. Town had to act fast in this game to have a hope, and read behaviour well. Despite the town's weakness they had some draw cards - powerful soothesayer, tracker was a potential cop in effect, and a bulletproof vigilante immune to all Mafia actions (potentially) . The reporters were more useful than most people give credit for actually. If you'd bothered to decipher the clues you would have found lots of useful stuff. There was an instance in the game that 100% led to a Mafioso lynch with these clues... more on that later.

I think this game was devilishly intricate and well balanced. In hindsight maybe an every night soothesayer, but otherwise this game was perhaps my best yet. Maybe I should have made Annabelle a double voter, but probably not. Better players and town probably would have cleaned up.

The game itself

So much to say! Let's begin.

DP 1 town falls for my trap with FT. FT I thought would be a nice miller mislynch given his playstyle. Mestari misread his invitation when he thought 3rd parties existed.

NP 1 was interesting. Mafia kill 1 reporter straight up (hence less confusion) . Mafia nearly disable F-16, but Sportsguru intervenes. Sportsguru is disabled, and Mafia are a bit confused. F-16's clues allude to Caveat's role and the events which happened. DN nearly caught this whole act. Town never put 2 and 2 together though... Social is electrocuted once. Maxx is investigated innocent. Medic soothes HCP... the wrong Mafioso unfortunately.

DP 2 was interesting, but ultimately unproductive. The whole IFLY / Maxx incident was bemusing, but I had to intervene. I was surprised that Maxx didn't CC BV. Medic and Social both had some good early analysis this DP, particularly Medic. BV's fake 'Teq' is surprisingly in line with a 3rd party role in the old design... Inactivity costs town in this DP. I'm still shocked that Medic (and Maxx a little) was the only one to immediately suspect the reporters.

NP 2 Mafia couldn't decide on their actions. At first they were attacking investigative roles, then not. Mafia electrocute Social. Mafia were at one point going to role disable Maxx, but FT advised against it. Maxx resisted being disabled. Allusion to Maxx's resistance in reporter clues.

DP 3 and I thought town had next to no hope, no leads. Then Social claimed vengeful townie. That's about the worst fake claim I've ever seen. He's rightly lynched. Caveat claims roleblocker... bad move considering I gave him a doc claim. Also, F-16 failed to pick up on Caveat's claimed speciaility in 'magician physiology' - that was a BIG red flag. Also, nobody understood why I used so many protective role in past games - bodyguard slayer and inquisitor anybody?

NP 3, and Mafia do what they should have done NP 2. Electrocute IFLY, role disable Medic, kill F-16 (who was getting dangerous) . Mafia are forewarned of Laterno, but don't read their clues... again. Town has nothing to do in the NP - no roles work that aren't killed or roleblocked etc. I screw up on the whole Sportsguru thing [see modding for analysis of this effect] .

DP 4. Town really, really, really should have got in a lynch this DP. This DP looked so promising, then became a catastrophe. Good DP though. Let's go through it in the next post (still have 1000 characters left, but let's finish things nicely in the next post) .

Continued...
"Tis not in mortals to command success
But we"ll do more, Sempronius, we"ll deserve it
Logic_on_rails
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10/24/2012 4:36:43 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
DP 4 was titanic. Let's examine it.

DP rightly starts off with suspicion on Caveat and BV. Good first move. Caveat ought to have been lynched, no doubt about it. Medic comes up with an interesting theory as to Howard's death (it's wrong - the quote is from the movie Network by the protagonist Howard Beale; great movie; only name of importance besides Banquo, which was a Shakespearian reference) , which is wrong, but he's right in suspecting reporters, again. Anyway, to Caveat, his claim of not roleblocking anybody given IFLY and Medic were roleblocked should have had him die.

Now, to the statement that FT was an absolute fool to publish, that 100% incriminated Caveat and cleared IFLY and nobody saw:

It is fortunate that Hazon shocks Maxwell before Roberto is sprung. Maxwell is knocked out easily.

Maxwell was IFLY's character. Caveat claimed his real character - Roberto Sancal. Earth to town - this was a winner. Also, FT stated that with a new police chief town was ready to go on the offensive... should have confirmed Maxx.

Following that 100% clear winner for the town which nobody saw... there's the beginning of IFLY and Medic at each other's throats. Doesn't change the fact that Caveat must have roleblocked 1 of them. Also, it never occurred to Medic that DN's NP 1 tracker results were verified by Sportsguru. BV also looks guilty at this point. Medic sums up the perfect town strategy at the end of page 2: Since we're all pretty much in agreement on Caveat, I think we should just go ahead and lynch him and get into the np.

Then Maxx drops a bombshell that nobody in the game expected - he is a vigilante. BV is lying. Now, this was a bit of a suspect claim it's true, but Maxx was perfectly correct in saying that BV or Caveat were likely to be lynched if he hadn't spoken up. Besides, Maxx's claim made perfect sense given all reporter info, OPs and the like. It would have been one heck of a good fake claim if it was one... Anyways, town throws out all behavioural analysis of BV. Town does come up with the semi-smart idea of letting the vigilantes shoot it out. They forget Caveat again. F-16 comes in, and gets more Mafia persuasion in the DP.

Maxx begins to see the entire Mafia (mistaken on Medic though), but nobody listens to his decent analysis. Somehow, people completely drop all former suspicion of BV/F-16, think Maxx would intentionally lie as Mafia, etc. Maxx is lynched. Town does the only thing that could really lose them the game given Maxx's immense powers, especially given his double voter status. If you had no lynched, Maxx would have killed F-16 for sure. Let's say Mafia NK OneElephant and electrocute IFLY. That leaves Maxx, FT, Caveat and Medic. Town has 3 votes due to Maxx. Somebody might finally realise a double voter exists! A vig kill on FT and Caveat and town can't possibly lose. Etc.

Town had enough information, a few stumbles by the Mafia, a few bad claims - even night vigilante, roleblocker, yet didn't convert. A lack of brilliance, inactivity and more hurt them.

As to the Mod's best players, IFLY was active as town - he will be invited back. FT was pretty sharp when he came back as a Mafioso. However, I don't think anybody played shockingly brilliantly this game - I managed to keep ahead of everybody, outwit people, and everybody make a mistake or overlooked something obvious. Medic had some very sharp analysis, but also some poor ideas. Maxx in the second half of DP 4 was good, not so great otherwise. F-16 played okay, but not his best game. Good as Mafia later, but missed key points as town...

Good game folks. Social's mistake gave town the chance it needed to win after a lacklustre start. Town didn't seize the day though.

Feedback

I'm always open to feedback, in fact, it's one thing I quite like. Please give some insight on the following if possible:

1. Do you think this game was well balanced? Why / why not?
2. Is my modding style too haphazard (last game it was 'predictable' instead!)? Should I be less creative with roles?
3. Did I mod well?
4. Was this game enjoyable?
5. Did you enjoy the OPs and endscenes of mine? *
6. Any particular role or ideas you want to see back in the future?

*I normally write all OPs and end scenes in greater depth, but the reporter mechanics prevented that this game. Still want feedback though!

I'm interested in hearing any and all feedback - criticism helps at times. I'd be interested to hear from past players in my games how this ranks. I know this game was rather violent and more powerful in brute force than other games for instance - less subtle plotting.

Finally, let me again extend my thanks to all of you for playing in my game. I know that many of you are time pressed, and committing to this may have been difficult, so I thank you all the more for it. I hope that I can repeat this success with the creme de la creme next time - Danielle asked to play DP 1, Drafterman DP 2, Marauder DP 2 etc. I sincerely hope you enjoyed this game - it's been a fun game to moderate on my end.

And so a curtain draws on a divided London.

Logic
"Tis not in mortals to command success
But we"ll do more, Sempronius, we"ll deserve it
Mestari
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10/24/2012 4:43:33 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
6. Any particular role or ideas you want to see back in the future?

I want to be Bulletproof next time I am town in one of your games. That is all.
Rules of Mafia

1. Mestari is never third party.
2. If Mestari claims an intricate and page long TP role, he's telling the truth.
3. Mestari always jointly wins with the town.
3b. If he doesn't he's mafia.
3c. If he was mafia you wouldn't suspect him in the first place.
4. If you lynch Mestari you will lose because he will be the third party Doctor or some other townie power role.
5. DP1 lynches are good.
6. The answer is always no.
Logic_on_rails
Posts: 2,445
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10/24/2012 4:49:43 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 10/24/2012 4:43:33 AM, Mestari wrote:
6. Any particular role or ideas you want to see back in the future?

I want to be Bulletproof next time I am town in one of your games. That is all.

I really should have replaced you back in. My apologies. Your early death was indeed unfortunate. I think this is a game you definitely would have liked. I also wanted to see a news report by you!
"Tis not in mortals to command success
But we"ll do more, Sempronius, we"ll deserve it
Mestari
Posts: 4,656
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10/24/2012 4:55:09 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 10/24/2012 4:49:43 AM, Logic_on_rails wrote:

I really should have replaced you back in. My apologies. Your early death was indeed unfortunate. I think this is a game you definitely would have liked. I also wanted to see a news report by you!

It's fine, really. I am now 2 for 2 when it comes to being killed NP1 as a townie in your games though. I suppose that's an accomplishment!
Rules of Mafia

1. Mestari is never third party.
2. If Mestari claims an intricate and page long TP role, he's telling the truth.
3. Mestari always jointly wins with the town.
3b. If he doesn't he's mafia.
3c. If he was mafia you wouldn't suspect him in the first place.
4. If you lynch Mestari you will lose because he will be the third party Doctor or some other townie power role.
5. DP1 lynches are good.
6. The answer is always no.
medic0506
Posts: 13,450
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10/24/2012 8:10:32 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
1. Do you think this game was well balanced? Why / why not?

Yes, both teams had a chance to win without requiring a miracle. Town's early weakness would have been strengthened late in the game if we had lasted.

2. Is my modding style too haphazard (last game it was 'predictable' instead!)? Should I be less creative with roles?

No, your style is fine and the games that I lasted in have been very enjoyable.

3. Did I mod well?

Yes, everyone eventually makes mistakes modding so it was unfortunate to lose our only protective role but stuff happens.

4. Was this game enjoyable?

Yes, your games usually are.

5. Did you enjoy the OPs and endscenes of mine? *

Yes

6. Any particular role or ideas you want to see back in the future?

I like the way you use the police force, reporter crew, etc. I also like Maxx's role.
OberHerr
Posts: 13,062
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10/24/2012 8:23:26 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
Mafia seems to be winning a lot recently....
-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-OBERHERR'S SIGNATURE-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-

Official Enforcer for the DDO Elite(if they existed).

"Cases are anti-town." - FourTrouble

-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-
medic0506
Posts: 13,450
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10/24/2012 8:33:26 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
This game is a good example of why townies shouldn't lie, or try to survive instead of cc'ing when the opportunity presents itself. No matter how strong your role is, it is severely weakened, if not useless, if the rest of the town doesn't believe you. If Maxx hadn't changed his claim I never would have changed my vote off Caveat. Oh well, live and learn.

Anyway, good game everyone and congrats to the scummy scumsters.
maxx233
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10/24/2012 10:21:02 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 10/24/2012 8:33:26 AM, medic0506 wrote:
This game is a good example of why townies shouldn't lie, or try to survive instead of cc'ing when the opportunity presents itself. No matter how strong your role is, it is severely weakened, if not useless, if the rest of the town doesn't believe you. If Maxx hadn't changed his claim I never would have changed my vote off Caveat. Oh well, live and learn.

Anyway, good game everyone and congrats to the scummy scumsters.

I'm still mixed on this, but definitely more persuaded toward the town-should-not-ever-lie philosophy at this point. I pretty much feel that I lost the game for town, and regardless of my beliefs over what may or may not have happened DP2 if I had CC'd BV, at least if it had ultimately led to a loss it would have felt like more of a team effort ;) And looking back it well could have resulted in a win no doubt, I just wasn't sure at the time. I felt we didn't have a firm grasp on balance yet and there could well be a very strong mafioso with similar ability to mine that I was destined to face off against again (as in the OP) - so I WAS quite worried about my own survival as I felt that was sort of the point of my role rather than preventing one mafia vig kill (which almost seemed baited at the time.)

It definitely did not help in the least that Medic had received no result on me, and I had interpreted that to be a sure-sign that he was mafia. Knowing that he was town, that obviously made medic certain that I was up to no good, and the whole thing went downhill from there with mafia acting well to capitalize on the situation.
medic0506
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10/24/2012 10:51:00 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 10/24/2012 10:21:02 AM, maxx233 wrote:
At 10/24/2012 8:33:26 AM, medic0506 wrote:
This game is a good example of why townies shouldn't lie, or try to survive instead of cc'ing when the opportunity presents itself. No matter how strong your role is, it is severely weakened, if not useless, if the rest of the town doesn't believe you. If Maxx hadn't changed his claim I never would have changed my vote off Caveat. Oh well, live and learn.

Anyway, good game everyone and congrats to the scummy scumsters.

I'm still mixed on this, but definitely more persuaded toward the town-should-not-ever-lie philosophy at this point. I pretty much feel that I lost the game for town, and regardless of my beliefs over what may or may not have happened DP2 if I had CC'd BV, at least if it had ultimately led to a loss it would have felt like more of a team effort ;) And looking back it well could have resulted in a win no doubt, I just wasn't sure at the time. I felt we didn't have a firm grasp on balance yet and there could well be a very strong mafioso with similar ability to mine that I was destined to face off against again (as in the OP) - so I WAS quite worried about my own survival as I felt that was sort of the point of my role rather than preventing one mafia vig kill (which almost seemed baited at the time.)

It definitely did not help in the least that Medic had received no result on me, and I had interpreted that to be a sure-sign that he was mafia. Knowing that he was town, that obviously made medic certain that I was up to no good, and the whole thing went downhill from there with mafia acting well to capitalize on the situation.

No biggie Maxx, it was a fun and competitive game, that's all I hope for. Winning is a plus but the game can be enjoyable either way.
FourTrouble
Posts: 12,757
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10/24/2012 11:29:26 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
I don't know why you call me a fool to publish that info Logic. Remember at the time I was trying to save BV by steering town towards caveat. The information worked flawlessly in thy sense, until maxx claimed.

I'll have more to say later.
IFLYHIGH
Posts: 5,223
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10/24/2012 11:58:53 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
Not exactly the "I told y'all so" I was looking forward to giving.

2. Is my modding style too haphazard (last game it was 'predictable' instead!)? Should I be less creative with roles? Are you kidding? I loved the amount of creativity in this game.
3. Did I mod well? Yes. Maybe next time though you should take your intervention primarily within player's PM's though. Other than that, no complaints. Making Maxx doublevoter was a genius solution to having modkilled SG.
4. Was this game enjoyable? Absolutely.
5. Did you enjoy the OPs and endscenes of mine? * I never really analysed them because I'm horrible with coming up with theories and finding clues, but I did enjoy the entertainment aspect of them.
6. Any particular role or ideas you want to see back in the future? You're the mod. Just continue to surprise us, and I will enjoy whatever you come up with.

@Maxx, we all make mistakes. I myself once got lynched for lying about my role and fessing up to it later. I am not really a die hard "lynch all liars" follower either, but there has to be a point where you draw the line. Still, great analysis there at the end. If I wasn't so stuck on you being TP, I would have given more consideration to it. Question: Why were you so afraid of dying? If you just claimed to be delayed vig, I doubt mafia would have considered you much of a immediate threat. They may have even decided not to kill you due to fear that SG would protect you. You may have even gotten them to waste a rb or NK on you later in the game.

Me giving Caveat the benefit of the doubt was a real game changer for me. Because I figured Caveat wouldn't roleblock me as mafia, I figured Medic must be mafia. That of course led to our argument that lasted for nearly half a DP. I have no idea what the motivation for mafia would be to rb the cop knowing it would get them lynched. It didn't, and still doesn't, make sense. I'm not quite sure if I my thiking was flawed either. While I was wrong about Caveat, I was right that Maxx wouldn't change his claim as mafia.

FT is definitely the mafia MVP. Not only did he convince me he is town, he also convinced me to hammer maxx instead of VTNL. I should of just stuck with my gut, but w/e, I learned my mistake now. The only thing that struck me as odd about FT is I thought he was grasping straws with his reporter information and his continued ignorance of F-16/BV's extremely scummy behavior. I don't even know if FT had a scumtell this game. Next time, I guess I will just focus on how sound his reasoning is.

Awesome game. I look forward to your future games Logic.
Logic_on_rails
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10/24/2012 2:59:04 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 10/24/2012 11:29:26 AM, FourTrouble wrote:
I don't know why you call me a fool to publish that info Logic. Remember at the time I was trying to save BV by steering town towards caveat. The information worked flawlessly in thy sense, until maxx claimed.

I'll have more to say later.

I suppose... I did somewhat forget the context. In the scheme of things though, your comment was the only confirmation of scum that the town had. F-16 said in his first role PM that it was pretty incredible that nobody was confirmed either way DP 4.

Fool is probably too strong a move, and I did forget the context. My apologies. I might have left out that statement from the 4 though. If you were to include it, then stress your analysis of your reports!

Besides that potential misplay you played pretty well though - maybe the best player in the game.
"Tis not in mortals to command success
But we"ll do more, Sempronius, we"ll deserve it
FourTrouble
Posts: 12,757
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10/25/2012 12:01:42 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
@Logic

The game design was great. For a game as complex as this was, it was amazingly well-balanced, and that is a true achievement on your part. I don't see any particular advantage that any side had over the other, and it really forced everyone to focus on behavioral analysis, while still giving town a few investigative clues to help them figure out their reads. I do agree with you that, had BV been more active and some more great players been in the game like bluesteel, it would have been an even more exciting and intense finish than it was. I hope your next game can bring together some more great players yet again.

I do want to briefly comment on your solution to the mistake with SG. As much as your solution was a noble effort to correct a mistake, it changed the dynamic of the game in a far more dramatic way than if you had just left SG in the game as a confirmed townie. The problem is, the game came down to whether maxx was lynched on DP4 or not. Which is really unfair, cause if maxx just kept his mouth shut, town would have won. I even said in the mafia PM that I hoped you gave the double vote to anyone but maxx, and that was before I even knew how powerful maxx's role really was. The game came down to the lynch of a single person, when mafia should have been able to win with a mislynch on any townie. I guess that was my main problem with the solution, which I thought made the game far more town-sided than if you had just let town have confirmation of SG.
caveat
Posts: 2,137
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10/25/2012 12:24:22 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 10/24/2012 2:59:04 PM, Logic_on_rails wrote:
At 10/24/2012 11:29:26 AM, FourTrouble wrote:
I don't know why you call me a fool to publish that info Logic. Remember at the time I was trying to save BV by steering town towards caveat. The information worked flawlessly in thy sense, until maxx claimed.

I'll have more to say later.

I suppose... I did somewhat forget the context. In the scheme of things though, your comment was the only confirmation of scum that the town had. F-16 said in his first role PM that it was pretty incredible that nobody was confirmed either way DP 4.

Fool is probably too strong a move, and I did forget the context. My apologies. I might have left out that statement from the 4 though. If you were to include it, then stress your analysis of your reports!

Besides that potential misplay you played pretty well though - maybe the best player in the game.

It was only a misplay due to our lack of konwledge regarding maxx's immunity to my disabling at the time. While operating under the presumption that everybody but IFH was disabled, lynching me was the easiest route to victory and it probably would have gone through after my completely unjustified vote for BV and FT capitalizing on my "slip".
There is an art, it says, or rather, a knack to flying. The knack lies in learning how to throw yourself at the ground and miss. " Clearly, it is this second part, the missing, which presents the difficulties.
BlackVoid
Posts: 9,170
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10/25/2012 1:15:29 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
MASSIVE apologies to everyone, and Logic especially, for dissappearing in the middle of the game and at a horrible time. Something crazy happened that was out of my control and required me to go to Lincoln, Nebraska of all places for a while (lol). Anyway, its good to see FT was able to overcome my horrible play in DP3...I'll post full thoughts once I catch up with all thats happened.
BlackVoid
Posts: 9,170
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10/25/2012 2:32:13 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
I honestly can't believe I wasn't lynched. I really can't, lol. I played so badly this game. It may be because I knew it was true, but from my perspective it should have been an easy decision to lynch me on that last DP. Me saying the analysis on OneE on DP3 was contrived because we were obviously going to VTNL (when in reality there were 9 hours left in the DP) was a major slip on my part and should have individually got me killed. Maxx CC'ing me as mafia with his story would have made no sense BECAUSE it was so hard to believe. From a mafia perspective, it would be 100x more probable to get a mislynch just by pushing behavioral analysis than it would be to say you've been lying about your role this whole time and waited 2 DPs to CC somebody. The amount of hints he had given to his role earlier in the game (timing reference, vague suspicion on me) also should have worked in his favor. AND he was investigated innocent. So in that sense, whoever's decision it was to kill F-16 made a good choice, because he would have seen all thos for sure and there's no way we would have won last DP if he were there.

Speaking of Maxx's CC, I thought he was actually the town MVP (Ifly a close second). Outside of his suspicion of Medic, I don't remember seeing any posts of his that didn't make legit points. He was the first person to say that a mafia reporter makes perfect sense (manipulate the media). He didn't support FT's lynch. He suspected that scum would push his lynch to get him to replace an inactive mafioso (half-true). He also suspected FT late. Unfortunently, nobody seemed to listen to anything he said, or even comment on it, as all those things he was right about never came into the equation on anyone's suspicions. The town also didn't recognize how dumb it would be for mafia to fabricate the story Maxx had against me.

Ifly also did well and lead the town on the final DP. It feels like he took the place of F-16 as the one you need to convince to get the rest of the town to follow. He was right to constantly suspect me. He kind of succumbed to peer pressure in the end, but still did good.

FT was a beast, and made up for my poor play/sporadic activity. I thought it was hilarious how when he was town, half the town was FOSing him, but the second he became mafia, he wasn't FOS'd a single time for the rest of the game (outside of Maxx). I was originally frustrated that the other 3 mafiosos were all inactive, so it was good to have another strong player on the team.

F-16 played strongly outside of leading the lynch on FT. Also was the first to spot me.

Speaking of the lynch on FT, I thought Medic's note about the 48 hour reference in the OP should have been taken more seriously. If I were town. I would have seen that as 100% confirmation. I don't know why people discarded it without a second thought.

Oh yeah, and Logic, why do you think my claim was bad? I was surprised when I read that. You give the mafia a de facto vig power and expect them not to claim it? Besides, with the FOS I had on me, if I had claimed a random unconfirmable role, I wouldn't have made it past DP2. Well, at least this confirms that you didn't expect mafia to claim their real roles. If Maxx had CC'd me as vig on DP2, I would have wondered why in the world the mod game the town a direct CC to a mafia power.

___

"1. Do you think this game was well balanced? Why / why not?"

Mixed opinions. I might make a separate post just for this.

"2. Is my modding style too haphazard (last game it was 'predictable' instead!)? Should I be less creative with roles?"

I thought mod psych played a minimal role. I was dissappointed when I learned that roles were, again, manually assigned (and that a townie was told this). Even moreso when I saw I was mafia, and that the whole group was, once again, comprised of people who hadn't been scum before. I figured town/F-16 would immediately determine me as mafia based off you directly saying you wanted to make me mafia in Blaise. Fortunently, none of the players really used mod psych in this game so it wasn't too bad. The roles were pretty creative and weren't too crazy. So it was fine overall.

"3. Did I mod well?"

Like Ifly said, certain things should have been said in people's role PMs instead of in public (town noticed some hints you had in your posts but never really pushed them as much as they should), but other than that it was fine.

"4. Was this game enjoyable?"

Eh, I don't enjoy being mafia at all anymore, so my opinion is inherently slanted. But we had a solid chance to win, good roles, mislynch targets, and good players on both sides, so I'd say the game was a success.

"5. Did you enjoy the OPs and endscenes of mine?"

Honestly I didn't pay as much attention to them as I should have. Since I was mafia I just focused on any info about us they might give away as opposed to reading it for entertainment.

___

Anyway, gg. Apologies to the mafia for inactivity and poor play/effort in general. Good job to everyone I mentioned.

Oh yeah, and after this game I am going to laugh every time I hear someone say the words "vengeful townie".
Logic_on_rails
Posts: 2,445
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10/25/2012 5:07:38 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
Just a quick note, nearly all roles were randomly assigned, contrary to popular belief. The only assigned role was FT for miller. That was all.

BV, some interesting feedback. The reason I called your vigilante claim bad was because it should have been pretty evident that the Mafia roles were all about force, not misleading the town. From that it should have been deduced that fake claiming would be a somewhat major issue - hence vigilante wasn't safe; you guys had co and reporter. Everything else was potentially poison. Maybe too many loops to take seriously. I don't think anybody ever expected a town vigilante though! I think you played okay, but I saw subtle errors creep in slowly over DP 2 and 3. Maybe I'll make you town next time as per your wishes.

Also, forgot the tracker role in my role summary! It existed and was a very powerful role this game - could track many dangerous roles.
"Tis not in mortals to command success
But we"ll do more, Sempronius, we"ll deserve it