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Patience

TUF
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1/29/2013 9:06:43 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
I always see F-16 and drafter doing big threads like this whenever they want to rant about something they are noticing either on mafia, or on DDO in general. I guess it's my turn.

My question is, why are mafia players here so impatient?

Here is a few things I have noticed:

1. People being lynched before they have a chance to get on and defend themselves from a lynch, and there is plenty of time left.

2. People voting against what they actually believe in because they want to move the DP along, even though the DP has time left in it.

3. People making hasty decisions, not thinking things through, and letting scum pass right under there nose because they are so caught up in the flame war and trying to be right, that they eventually have to convince themselves that they can't be wrong, even if they start seeing things from another persons POV.

I feel like all scenarios could be prevented if people actually had patience.

Do you agree, dis-agree, or have a different solution that you might think could solve the problem? I am interested in knowing.
"I've got to go and grab a shirt" ~ Airmax1227
thedebatekid
Posts: 1,211
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1/29/2013 9:18:34 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
Ever since time limits have been put on mafia the process of choosing who to lynch has begun to get more complicated. People don't know who to lynch because there rushed. My solution to the problem would be to give a 24 hour advanced time notice. Not 5-12 hours notice. With a day ahead of them people can try to think more rational. You can't make a decision in 5 hours of mafia when your only on for 30 minutes.

(Some people have lives outside of DDO, I know most of you can agree with me.)
How many licks does it take to get to the tootsie roll center of the tootsie pop? 1, 2, 3, *crunch* SON OF A !@#%!@#$!@$%$^^$$#%!!!

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tvellalott
Posts: 10,864
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1/29/2013 10:45:50 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
I have a few experimental ideas for my next game which I was going to make a thread about but will instead put here:

First and most importantly, each player is going to get a maximum number of posts per day phase.
Each player can only post say 8 times per day phase (haven't worked out an exact number)

It solves a whole bunch of peoples I have with the state of DDO mafia.
1) It reduces the chance of a 600 post thread full of mostly useless information that players like myself (who only have 15 minutes here and there to participate) can't get through. This was a major problem for me with Danielles recent game (though obviously no fault of her own). Every time I had time to sit down and play I said "ok, now I'm going to do a detailed analysis of the game." I'd open up multiple tabs with all the day phases and get my notepad ready. Then the sheer amount of content would dissuade me and I'd go and play playstation.

2) It deters people from getting into flame wars and encourages people to post thoughtfully rather than impulsively.
Are you going to be so keen to get into a flame war if your posts are limited? I don't think so. This is a sub-part of the people of threads filling up with posts.

To avoid the problem of someone who has used all their posts, I will allow players to give some of their remaining posts to players if need be. This means the total number of posts won't increase.

The second thing I'm going to do is remove no lynches. Someone is lynched every day, no exceptions. To encourage this, if no consensus is met by the end of the day I'm just going to roll randomly and kill someone, current lynches won't be taken into account.

The third thing I'm going to do is start the game during the night phase to remove the whole DP1 is for 2 claims and then no lynch SOP boring crap.

The fourth thing I'm going to do is have 7-10 day long day phases so, combined with the post restriction, people play really carefully.

The fifth thing I'm going to do (I've changed my mind about Cabin in the Woods; you can use that if you want TUF) is something that's pretty common but that I've never done is make my own story, with characters and sh!t so that research won't help.

So that's
1) Players will have a restricted number of posts.
2) There will be a lynch every day otherwise someone will be randomly killed.
3) The game will start during the night phase.
4) The day phases will be 7-10 days long.
5) Researching the theme won't help since it will be purely of my own design.
"Caitlyn Jenner is an incredibly brave and stunningly beautiful woman."

Muh threads
Using mafia tactics in real-life: http://www.debate.org...
6 years of DDO: http://www.debate.org...
F-16_Fighting_Falcon
Posts: 18,324
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1/29/2013 11:04:51 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 1/29/2013 10:45:50 PM, tvellalott wrote:
I have a few experimental ideas for my next game which I was going to make a thread about but will instead put here:

First and most importantly, each player is going to get a maximum number of posts per day phase.
Each player can only post say 8 times per day phase (haven't worked out an exact number)

It solves a whole bunch of peoples I have with the state of DDO mafia.
1) It reduces the chance of a 600 post thread full of mostly useless information that players like myself (who only have 15 minutes here and there to participate) can't get through. This was a major problem for me with Danielles recent game (though obviously no fault of her own). Every time I had time to sit down and play I said "ok, now I'm going to do a detailed analysis of the game." I'd open up multiple tabs with all the day phases and get my notepad ready. Then the sheer amount of content would dissuade me and I'd go and play playstation.

Why do you use notepad to write notes down about the game? Mafia is a fun activity to be pursued for enjoyment at one's leisure. Putting thoughts down on notepad feels like work.

Post as you catch up. Put out thoughts that you feel about the game as it progresses and interact with people. I think the reason you don't seem to mafia is that you only spend time catching up on past DPs. Catching up is never fun. Playing in the moment is when it is most fun. If you have only 15 minutes a day, then check the threads everyday so there are only about 30-60 new posts each day. Don't try to catch up on 100s of posts.

With that said, I think post count restrictions stop people from being spontaneous with their posts and turns everyone into a catch-upper i.e. a player like you.

Besides "flame wars" are very rare on DDO. What you are terming as "flame wars" were probably "quote wars" where people quote huge blocks of text and respond line by line only to quote again and again. This can be easily solved by having a no double-quoting rule. If someone responds to your post with a quote, you must use a new post to respond. Or simply delete your original comment and only quote the latest quote. A game where no one quotes isn't a chore to read.

2) It deters people from getting into flame wars and encourages people to post thoughtfully rather than impulsively.
Are you going to be so keen to get into a flame war if your posts are limited? I don't think so. This is a sub-part of the people of threads filling up with posts.

See above.

To avoid the problem of someone who has used all their posts, I will allow players to give some of their remaining posts to players if need be. This means the total number of posts won't increase.

The second thing I'm going to do is remove no lynches. Someone is lynched every day, no exceptions. To encourage this, if no consensus is met by the end of the day I'm just going to roll randomly and kill someone, current lynches won't be taken into account.

The third thing I'm going to do is start the game during the night phase to remove the whole DP1 is for 2 claims and then no lynch SOP boring crap.

Not a bad idea to try out and see how it works although it might lead to an over-reliance on night action as opposed to behavioral analysis. I am actually considering using 2 DPs per every NP in my next game.

The fourth thing I'm going to do is have 7-10 day long day phases so, combined with the post restriction, people play really carefully.

7-10 days with no post restriction seems better. See mafiascum and my Fire and Ice game for instance where DPs were about 6-8 days.

The fifth thing I'm going to do (I've changed my mind about Cabin in the Woods; you can use that if you want TUF) is something that's pretty common but that I've never done is make my own story, with characters and sh!t so that research won't help.

So that's
1) Players will have a restricted number of posts.
2) There will be a lynch every day otherwise someone will be randomly killed.
3) The game will start during the night phase.
4) The day phases will be 7-10 days long.
5) Researching the theme won't help since it will be purely of my own design.
IFLYHIGH
Posts: 5,223
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1/29/2013 11:19:44 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
Why do you use notepad to write notes down about the game? Mafia is a fun activity to be pursued for enjoyment at one's leisure. Putting thoughts down on notepad feels like work.

I'm actually guilty of this too and understand what TV is saying. I have a horrible memory and tend to forget a good chunk of what I was thinking throughout the dayphase. I like to write down a player's name and write down why I think they are either town or scum. It also comes in handy later in the game when I forget why I thought player X was either town or scum. I even sometimes do a "after game" analysis to see which town tells or scumtells were right or wrong. I know, I know, I probably invest too much time into some mafia games.
IFLYHIGH
Posts: 5,223
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1/29/2013 11:21:31 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
Yahoo mail though fvcking deleted all my recent draft's(which are what I use as notes). Fvcking yahoo. I even had some school reports in there. /endrant.
F-16_Fighting_Falcon
Posts: 18,324
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1/29/2013 11:22:18 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 1/29/2013 11:19:44 PM, IFLYHIGH wrote:
Why do you use notepad to write notes down about the game? Mafia is a fun activity to be pursued for enjoyment at one's leisure. Putting thoughts down on notepad feels like work.

I'm actually guilty of this too and understand what TV is saying. I have a horrible memory and tend to forget a good chunk of what I was thinking throughout the dayphase. I like to write down a player's name and write down why I think they are either town or scum. It also comes in handy later in the game when I forget why I thought player X was either town or scum. I even sometimes do a "after game" analysis to see which town tells or scumtells were right or wrong. I know, I know, I probably invest too much time into some mafia games.

Hmm, I should try doing that. I spend too much time posting copiously in the day thread and too little behind the scenes work.
tvellalott
Posts: 10,864
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1/29/2013 11:36:13 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 1/29/2013 11:04:51 PM, F-16_Fighting_Falcon wrote:
Why do you use notepad to write notes down about the game? Mafia is a fun activity to be pursued for enjoyment at one's leisure. Putting thoughts down on notepad feels like work.

That's just how I do it bro. :)

Post as you catch up. Put out thoughts that you feel about the game as it progresses and interact with people. I think the reason you don't seem to mafia is that you only spend time catching up on past DPs. Catching up is never fun. Playing in the moment is when it is most fun. If you have only 15 minutes a day, then check the threads everyday so there are only about 30-60 new posts each day. Don't try to catch up on 100s of posts.

Posting as you catch up seems stupid. Either you start from start and post about things that may have been addressed already or you post from the most recent posts and have no idea what people are talking about.
Playing in the moment is most fun IF YOU KNOW WHAT'S happening. I try to do that, but then you have the whole bandwagonning thing. I'm just playing with ideas; I don't want to restrict posts so much that discussion can't happen. I just want to make people a bit more thoughtful about what they post.
So often a discussion goes like this.
Player A) You did this, therfore you're scummy.
Player B) No, that wasn't scummy because this.
Player A) No, it was scummy.
Player B) No, it isn't scummy.
Player A and Player B argue until one goes offline.
This is you and Danielle in my most recent game by the way (and you were both town!)

With that said, I think post count restrictions stop people from being spontaneous with their posts and turns everyone into a catch-upper i.e. a player like you.

Exactly, but I don't see it turning everyone in to a catch upper. I see it reducing people responding to everything that everyone says about everything. We end up with so many pointless posts!

Besides "flame wars" are very rare on DDO. What you are terming as "flame wars" were probably "quote wars" where people quote huge blocks of text and respond line by line only to quote again and again. This can be easily solved by having a no double-quoting rule. If someone responds to your post with a quote, you must use a new post to respond. Or simply delete your original comment and only quote the latest quote. A game where no one quotes isn't a chore to read.

Maybe I'll add that as number 6. :P

2) It deters people from getting into flame wars and encourages people to post thoughtfully rather than impulsively.
Are you going to be so keen to get into a flame war if your posts are limited? I don't think so. This is a sub-part of the people of threads filling up with posts.

See above.

To avoid the problem of someone who has used all their posts, I will allow players to give some of their remaining posts to players if need be. This means the total number of posts won't increase.

The second thing I'm going to do is remove no lynches. Someone is lynched every day, no exceptions. To encourage this, if no consensus is met by the end of the day I'm just going to roll randomly and kill someone, current lynches won't be taken into account.

The third thing I'm going to do is start the game during the night phase to remove the whole DP1 is for 2 claims and then no lynch SOP boring crap.

Not a bad idea to try out and see how it works although it might lead to an over-reliance on night action as opposed to behavioral analysis. I am actually considering using 2 DPs per every NP in my next game.

Assuming that there are an abundance of powerful roles, eh?
Might be a mistake. ;)

The fourth thing I'm going to do is have 7-10 day long day phases so, combined with the post restriction, people play really carefully.

7-10 days with no post restriction seems better. See mafiascum and my Fire and Ice game for instance where DPs were about 6-8 days.

And then we have threads with over 9000 posts. Nope. If you don't like it, don't sign up (sorry to be blunt, you are one of my favourite players) It's still in early development so wait until the sign-up thread where I will detail the exact way the game will work.

The fifth thing I'm going to do (I've changed my mind about Cabin in the Woods; you can use that if you want TUF) is something that's pretty common but that I've never done is make my own story, with characters and sh!t so that research won't help.

So that's
1) Players will have a restricted number of posts.
2) There will be a lynch every day otherwise someone will be randomly killed.
3) The game will start during the night phase.
4) The day phases will be 7-10 days long.
5) Researching the theme won't help since it will be purely of my own design.
"Caitlyn Jenner is an incredibly brave and stunningly beautiful woman."

Muh threads
Using mafia tactics in real-life: http://www.debate.org...
6 years of DDO: http://www.debate.org...
F-16_Fighting_Falcon
Posts: 18,324
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1/30/2013 12:00:39 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 1/29/2013 11:36:13 PM, tvellalott wrote:

Posting as you catch up seems stupid. Either you start from start and post about things that may have been addressed already or you post from the most recent posts and have no idea what people are talking about.
Playing in the moment is most fun IF YOU KNOW WHAT'S happening. I try to do that, but then you have the whole bandwagonning thing. I'm just playing with ideas; I don't want to restrict posts so much that discussion can't happen. I just want to make people a bit more thoughtful about what they post.

I think it is good to try it out. Maybe see the response and perhaps do feedback surveys on it. I would recommend though that the you keep the maximum posts at more than 8, perhaps 10-15 for a 15 player game. Another thing is that this would eliminate is reaction tests and other one line posts which can be useful to kick-start a game.

So often a discussion goes like this.
Player A) You did this, therfore you're scummy.
Player B) No, that wasn't scummy because this.
Player A) No, it was scummy.
Player B) No, it isn't scummy.
Player A and Player B argue until one goes offline.
This is you and Danielle in my most recent game by the way (and you were both town!) ]

I don't think our argument in that game is typical of most "wars" since it had a lot of good analysis at least on my end. Now that you mention it, I don't actually recall where Danielle even called out the mafia. I recall me making a list with a "mafia are here" title and her mocking me for it (just because she was in the list) when it turned out all the mafia but Marauder were in that list. Marauder had just cc'd Knukle who we were lynching so it was a simple case of seeing his flip and lynching Marauder right after. I honestly don't see how in any way she played as good as or better than me as you seemed to be implying at the endgame.

Exactly, but I don't see it turning everyone in to a catch upper. I see it reducing people responding to everything that everyone says about everything. We end up with so many pointless posts!

I do agree that a lot of posts are pointless so I'd want to see how your game works out.

And then we have threads with over 9000 posts. Nope. If you don't like it, don't sign up (sorry to be blunt, you are one of my favourite players) It's still in early development so wait until the sign-up thread where I will detail the exact way the game will work.

The post count in my game was actually very low as are post counts on mafiascum but its your game. I was just pointing out the obvious things.
Logic_on_rails
Posts: 2,445
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1/30/2013 12:31:09 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
People seem to like things being quick. People also have short attention spans, to a point.

I think that having custom themes reduces research as TV says... but a well done custom theme does allow for an array of subtle, discussable clues. Or so my games are designed.

Post restrictions sound like a halfway interesting idea... in theory. I know that if I post 5 times in a DP it's a surprise. But I post more stuff than most per post. All that said... I don't use a notepad. I can never imagine that!

As I'm in a rush, let's not talk much longer. There is no formulaic, obvious solution. The issue is player personality. Moderators can attempt to have rules about cordiality and post restrictions, but players must cooperate.
"Tis not in mortals to command success
But we"ll do more, Sempronius, we"ll deserve it
drafterman
Posts: 18,870
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1/30/2013 12:05:55 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
Also, I don't understand why people insist on trying to squeeze as much out of a Day Phase as possible. Sure, give everyone a chance to speak their mind, then do something.

The longer a DP lasts, the greater the chance it ends in NL, and favors the mafia. I learned that lesson my first game.
TUF
Posts: 21,309
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2/1/2013 6:55:25 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
@ TV, I think you should try out your idea, though I honestly don't know if would work. It might be legit though.
"I've got to go and grab a shirt" ~ Airmax1227
TUF
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2/1/2013 6:57:10 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 1/30/2013 12:05:55 PM, drafterman wrote:
Also, I don't understand why people insist on trying to squeeze as much out of a Day Phase as possible. Sure, give everyone a chance to speak their mind, then do something.

The DP's are the towns weapon against the mafia. You can't always rely on the investigative roles unfortunately. Why not milk out every last second you can out of the DP?

The longer a DP lasts, the greater the chance it ends in NL, and favors the mafia. I learned that lesson my first game.

I would rather risk not lynching a townie, in a VTNL, if there isn't enough information to adequately pin scum.
"I've got to go and grab a shirt" ~ Airmax1227
drafterman
Posts: 18,870
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2/1/2013 7:26:11 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 2/1/2013 6:57:10 PM, TUF wrote:
At 1/30/2013 12:05:55 PM, drafterman wrote:
Also, I don't understand why people insist on trying to squeeze as much out of a Day Phase as possible. Sure, give everyone a chance to speak their mind, then do something.

The DP's are the towns weapon against the mafia. You can't always rely on the investigative roles unfortunately. Why not milk out every last second you can out of the DP?

Because the DP has diminishing returns and, at some point, there is no gain in information, it's just pointless bickering.


The longer a DP lasts, the greater the chance it ends in NL, and favors the mafia. I learned that lesson my first game.

I would rather risk not lynching a townie, in a VTNL, if there isn't enough information to adequately pin scum.

Except role information and voting behaviors are some of the biggest ways we find scum. Falling back on VTNL's eliminates that.
TUF
Posts: 21,309
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2/1/2013 8:00:54 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 2/1/2013 7:26:11 PM, drafterman wrote:
At 2/1/2013 6:57:10 PM, TUF wrote:
At 1/30/2013 12:05:55 PM, drafterman wrote:
Also, I don't understand why people insist on trying to squeeze as much out of a Day Phase as possible. Sure, give everyone a chance to speak their mind, then do something.

The DP's are the towns weapon against the mafia. You can't always rely on the investigative roles unfortunately. Why not milk out every last second you can out of the DP?

Because the DP has diminishing returns and, at some point, there is no gain in information, it's just pointless bickering.

We can pull scum reads from the bickering.

The longer a DP lasts, the greater the chance it ends in NL, and favors the mafia. I learned that lesson my first game.

I would rather risk not lynching a townie, in a VTNL, if there isn't enough information to adequately pin scum.

Except role information and voting behaviors are some of the biggest ways we find scum. Falling back on VTNL's eliminates that.

I agree, but if we haven't concluded a scum by the time we've finished getting claims, VTNL is better than a lynch sometimes.
"I've got to go and grab a shirt" ~ Airmax1227