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Madness in Delderra Endgame

Logic_on_rails
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3/1/2013 11:19:36 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
In a thrilling and close finale the Mafia / 3rd party Alastair Helbert scrape home to win.

1st place - Mafia (TV, Sarcastic, Tulle, Bull)
2nd place - Town
3rd place - TUF / Ishall (Sarcastic never died)

Mafia / Alastair (4)

Sarcastic (formerly) IFLY - Alastair Helbert " A great burden rests with you. Upon your father"s death, your brother (now called) Christopher Blackburn left Delderra, furious because he suspected some untold inheritance resided with you " you are the custodian of this inheritance.

This "inheritance" is more like a curse. In Delderra there is a substance that wreaks havoc with the mind, creates illusions and can transfer consciousness to others etc. It is a substance that, if it"s existence was known by certain denizens of the modern world, would create a world far different to the one we know. That modern denizens have arrived is a travesty waiting to happen. Following the events of the OP, you must now serve these denizens until you can overwhelm them; you are your own man, yet a 3rd party under the Mafia"s thumb.

Each night you may kill somebody. You can do this in 2 ways " a clean kill and you stay innocent to investigation, or be a puppeteer and be able to end a person"s life whenever you wish (you can build up this count to serve as a mighty ultimatum) as well as be a reflexive roleblocker. You also have ways to resist death. You will survive death once through mind transference in the case of a lynch. If lynched, transfer your mind to somebody on your lynch. You will only fail if you target your brother " you would never take over him (applies to kills as well) and know him to be a good person " he is the primary reason why you obey these fiends.

You win with the Mafia, except if your fellow Mafiosos all die out first. In that case you can win by making it to the final 3, or the final 4 if Christopher is still alive.

Modnote: Alastair's powers can only be activated by all other Mafia actions (including the NK) being forfeited on one of the nights.

Tulle - Doctor Clive Welter - You are the head doctor. What does this mean? You receive a plan of every doctor"s action for the night " their night actions, prior to the NP; their night actions must be submitted a NP prior. Also, once in the game you can effect a piercing kill on a doctor protected target by tampering with the chemicals utilised. This is a substitute for the Mafia night kill. You win with the Mafia.

TV - Lady Lynda- You are the role cop. Each night you may investigate one person and learn their role. Be warned though " you will see their role as it truly is, not necessarily as they see it. Alternatively, you may act as a soothsayer, preventing all violent actions for 3 NPs following a player being soothed. You win with the Mafia.

Bull_Diesel - Francisco Hobb - You're a bit of a thug - the muscle in the operation. You can either have 3 roleblocks or 1 role removal this game. The second you choose either course you will lose the option to choose the other. There is a final twist though - you can use 2 roleblocks on a single night if you wish to forgo the 3rd roleblock. You win with the Mafia.

Town (11)

HCP - Danielle Wilders - Protect 1 person for a night; action must be submitted prior to the end of the DP of the number of your NP (ie. Say by DP 1 end a NP 1 action) You win with the town.

TUF - Rob Lide- Ho, you're that sharp doc who always carries a knife. You may protect 1 person for a night; actions must be said before the DP of the number of the coming NP (ie. Submit by end of DP 1 a NP 1 action) ... can't cut up a patient who's already bleeding to death, right? You win with the town.

Mestari - Doctor Alyssa Raymond - My lady, you are a doctor of Delderra. Protect a person a night, but the action must be sent in prior to the end of the DP of the number of your NP (ie. Submit by end of DP 1 a NP 1 action). You win with the town.

Modnote: 3rd party miller

[Just a note on doctor PMs, the grammar was poor to try and differentiate the doctor PMs]

FourTrouble - Hatsue Chambers - For so many years you loved Robert Astrid , but he... was always doing something else. Always seemingly hiding in the shadows or eerily distant from Delderrian society; a detached man. Now you have doubts as people in the town begin to die. Is he responsible? You may murder suicide Robert Astrid any night you wish. Your other ability is as a detective of the deceased " while you"re alive you will see role PMs with all relevant modnotes which were unseen to the players. You win with the town.

Maxx - Christopher Blackburn - You are the founder of the Blackburn Express, a delightful luxury train company that has made you terribly wealthy... following your leaving your hometown Delderra following your father's death. That said, you miss it"s quaint nature - you are a man that detests many facets of modern life, and you"re appalled to see vestiges of modernity on your train. particularly the nosy reporters!

Of course, as the host of this delightful train and it's great hospitality you are the popular townie. Furthermore, you have everybody at your beck and call - message or mason anybody that you wish at any time for any duration you desire, with 1 of these abilities being able to be enacted each night (you can close messages whenever you wish, or reopen closed messages as you please) .

Finally, your brother still lives in your hometown. Your father entrusted his inheritance and everything he knew to your brother - your father did not trust you. Should you wish to, you may murder-suicide your brother Alastair during the night. You and Alastair will die if you perform this action; protections may negate one or more of the deaths though.

You win with the town.

Danielle - Robert Astrid- You my friend are one who wanders in this crowded world of ours looking for the bliss of solitude. You would give all your energy to just read in an endless library for eternity, and find solace in the fount of knowledge. You now have that opportunity - a library of much knowledge is before you. It would take only 2 nights to learn the skills of a doctor or murder-suicide or soothsayer. It takes only 1 night to learn the skills of a messenger, tracker or bodyguard. It takes 3 nights to gain cop powers. You may inquire about other roles of interest and I'll determine how long it takes to learn them. You can learn multiple abilities, although only utilise 1 a night. There is also a price to this knowledge - for every NP you spend learning an ability to following DP you lack the ability to vote in any capacity. You win with the town.

Daytona - Naive Caroline- You"re just so helpless and adored. You can"t do anything, but your lover, is here to save you from every nightmare imaginable. The citizens of Delderra will realise on DP 6 that you"re innocent - mod confirmed innocent DP 6 in the OP. You win with the town.

Modnote: 3rd party miller

Drafterman - Ishmael Chadeau" You"re a man who has lived his life, learnt, and is a man who lives purposefully now. Your skills are not overwhelmed by uncertainty, and Delderra is a town which you know well. You are the investigative JOAT " you may watch, cop or self-watch + track a person in the night. But you"re a man who tires in his age; you must rest once every 3 nights, although the choice of time is yours. You win with the town.

Continued...
"Tis not in mortals to command success
But we"ll do more, Sempronius, we"ll deserve it
Logic_on_rails
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3/1/2013 11:19:54 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
Buddamoose - Everett Molon" Friend, you always stand in the way of injustice. That"s why you"ll once redirect an action from a player of your choosing onto you. You"ll also once negate any one role action in this game. You can prevent only 2 actions this entire game (some may be town actions) , so act wisely. You win with the town.

Modnote: Will be given a chance to intervene and use his powers (if any are left) to prevent mind transference. [this is all to say, Alastair's anti-lynching ability]

F-16 - Mayor Ethan Hartland - You my friend are the most capable man in Delderra by far. Delderra's fate rests terribly heavily upon your actions especially. Every even NP you can either watch, track, cop or protect a person. Every odd NP you can either listen to your fellow councilmen of advisers and they'll provide you with important 'clues', or... you can call in MI6 and 3 people will be randomly killed. It is a heavy burden indeed. You win with the town.

Modnote: Every single ability fails to work properly - clues are true, yet often misleading. Investigative powers only work when they lead to strange or misleading conclusions that will confuse and hinder proper investigation. Otherwise complete role failure occurs. Also 3rd party miller.

Ishallannoyo (now TUF) - Chevalier de Alfheim - Delderra's man of action and foresight, you are the one appointed to deal with 3rd party threats, those figures of such uncontrollable and unpredictable power that Delderra could not bear to suffer under their rule. Not once have you failed in your duty before. You only fulfil your duty, and win with the town, once every 3rd party is dead [every other; mod correction]; prior to this you win with yourself and investigate accordingly. To help you in this cause you are the 3rd party cop - investigate 1 person a night and you'll be told if they are a 3rd party or not.

Modding

I'm going to say that I did fairly well on this account, although I faced problems. For instance, my initial lynch policy was rather pathetic, so I changed it. Replacements were dealt with adequately in the end (had 4 replacements for 1 role on NP 4) . However, a quick recap of moderator problems.

Firstly, I accidentally sent IFLY the Mafia PM after sending him Budda's role. I had planned for IFLY to be Alastair and needed to send messages to Bull (through IFLY) ... for the really quick version, I screwed up, and this did have implications for the game. Secondly, DP control. I didn't quite crackdown early enough on copy and pasting quick enough; it is against normal Mafia rules to copy and paste roles, especially my flavoured roles! I balanced mistake 1 against 2 for balance here. 3, DPs went on too long in some cases - need to enforce DP time limits more. The final point (4) is not a mistake, but if I'd replaced Danielle into DP 5 town might have won. Mod choosing who does and doesn't replace in can make a difference, even if done randomly.

Game Balance and Genesis

I'm of the mind that this was a well done game, with a very finely done balance, although perhaps a little bit to the Mafia side.

The focus of the game was around Alastair. Since the end of my first game I've thought about puppet kills and the like, but it seemed so unbalanced to have a serial killer and a Mafia - that's why A Quaint Town became A Not So Quaint Town - Alastair's role didn't work. In fact, this OP was written for A Quaint Town, and I had to alter it (that's why Maxwell was in the OP once and why this storyline made sense with reporters) . Finally, Christopher Blackburn was originally a 3rd party idea in a reporter set-up.

Suffice to say, Alastair's incredible powers were balanced by Maxx's role (counterable by TV's soothsayer though), Ishall's role, Budda's ability to stop mind transferance, 3 doctors and having to give up a round of Mafia actions. Plus, Mafia were pretty weak without Alastair. I know there might be arguments about this, especially given the lack of real town investigators (though Danielle's role was dangerous if used well) , but I'd rather not spend posts describing the intricate balance. If it's raised, I may reply later. As to roles, this game had the ideas of murder-suicide, Alastair's role, detective of the deceased and 3rd party cop, so it wasn't the most normal line up of roles!

Of course, matters like story flavour and such are also part of game balance in my games, but that's a discussion for 'The Game Itself' . Suffice to say, this game was incredibly close, and I think very finely balanced, although more ingenious than first envisaged.

The Game Itself

You've all been waiting for this, and I have lots to say.

DP 1 was an amusing DP. Ishall rather surprised me by straight up claiming his role. I'd thought that was a poor move, but people believed him for various reasons... 1 reason not randomise roles to the extent that I did. Of course, this sets up a storm of mod psychology. I can tell you that Drafter's 'discovery' of Ishall's character being an anagram was news to me. Anyways, Bull plays honestly to the point of stupidity and is rightly lynched.

NP 1 Mafia sacrifice all actions (F-16's misleading 'paralysis' clue) , and use a puppet kill on Mestari... the only doctor who'd actually submitted his action on time. I then 'let' the other doctors hand in their actions to engender possible future confusion; punish them for not reading their roles. No town actions to note except that Maxx recruited Ishall. Really!? Cult motivations scream... Also, F-16 is obsessed with using MI6 on NP 1... nobody quite got that this role was a joke based on my most ridiculous (and infamous) fake claim I've ever pulled as Mafia... Ishall's role was a properly working version of a former fake claim of mine though.

DP 2...Maxx's post claiming to be Alastair was really quite bemusing. TV had played very well, but made an interesting dissection of Maxx's case; questionable move. Had Maxx not revealed the whole murder suicide thing (and lived) then the Mafia would have been totally screwed with Alastair's death. The other thing is that I'm realising that there's a lot more to this game than I realised. The basic idea was that Mafia had lots of powers, town didn't have many investigators, yet Mafia were really easy to catch. I told the Mafia that it would be difficult to claim... and they all claimed their real roles despite only TV's really being safe ground. I began to also see how the problems the town had to solve would be tougher than expected... I intervene to stop Maxx's lynch by changing the unfair policy. Maxx's near death (8/8) was interesting and shows that sometimes the truth helps... last time Maxx lied until it was too late.

NP 2 results in Ishall and Mestari dying. Ishall was puppet killed and the dead have no actions - this was why he never got any further results. TV soothed Maxx (to prevent murder suicide) yet Budda made the highly questionable move of roleblocking Maxx. Gave me the option of not explaining that Maxx was soothed. Again though town has no really useful information from night actions...

DP 3 was interesting. The focus was mostly on Tulle and again, brutal honesty is not always a great idea and she's rightly lynched. However, Sarcastic's brutal honesty is shocking. I thought he was a dead man for sure, as did TV and Tulle by their reactions in the Mafia PM... but you all believed the mad claim! Escaping from the Mafia? And Maxx goes so far as to not call it Logic-esque... everybody has a view on Logic-esque, and most of them are wrong. Although, you were right to deduce that I'd never name a character 'Rick Ross the gangsta' ; that's not Logic-esque!

Continued...
"Tis not in mortals to command success
But we"ll do more, Sempronius, we"ll deserve it
Logic_on_rails
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3/1/2013 11:20:15 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
Now, there's one matter I feel I need to discuss - TV knowing Budda's 1 shot self redirect. Now, TV played well this game, but without this he probably would have died a lot sooner. Basically, TV asked IFLY for Budda's role while I was offline. I wasn't happy at this. However, town had blatantly cheated and copy and pasted roles and then used such cheating to form suspicions on people like Tulle. I decided to not punish TV because the town had broken the rules, plus I knew that Budda's role had a hidden modnote which could screw TV over. The town did get punished for breaking rules.

NP 3 and TUF is killed - he foolishly disclosed publicly that he wasn't protecting himself. I do want to note that this was the only time a doctor did not protect themselves... I gave the town doctors, not bulletproofs for a reason. Drafter is puppet killed. Town has nearly no information coming in to help them, except that F-16 is subtly told of mysterious, powerful threats (like puppet kills being 'something of consequence')

DP 4... is madness. I was initially impressed, then became increasingly dismayed at the continuing posting. Town completely missed the forest for the trees, except for Danielle in a few instances. That's not to say that everything the town did was wrong, nor every idea poor... but the incessant paranoia and ridiculous notions of behavioural analysis! Rationalisation of everybody as scum! You were getting close to lynching your only investigative role with results (Drafter) , and later went after Budda and FT - both who should really have been confirmed town of a sorts. One had his role confirmed by the OPs! The other CC'd a Mafioso DP 1 (!) and supposedly was not in 'scum-scum' chat with Bull... I suppose what I want to say is that while town had many of the right ideas, nobody really had them all, and the town managed to destroy itself and mislynch badly. Lynching FT over Budda was critical because if Budda had been lynched and revealed TV would have been shown as a liar based on the hidden modnote. Don't want to discuss DP 4 much further...

NP 4 and the Mafia ruthlessly kill Danielle (TV was scared!) and Budda. F-16 gets a misleading result on TUF and his role is copped by TV. Not too much happens tonight (non-blood speaking!) .

DP 5, and town needed to calm down, think things out, and they would have won I think. As it was, TV boldly launched into an attack of F-16, forcing the issue, and F-16 pushed back. The only person who didn't seem bloodthirsty for an immediate lynch was Maxx; everybody else charged in with swords drawn. Drafter and TUF and HCP all leapt at F-16. I was a bit disappointed with this to be frank - it was all rather too simple to get F-16 lynched on a vapid case of nothing. During all this attack Maxx built up a list of mysteries from the game and was wanting discussion on that. Yes! There's a reason I wrote a lot on Drafterman's death and had all that quoted text! Yes, deaths that you can't see are important! Town is again missing the forest for the trees. Aside from TV being scum and Maxx's few good points, you should have known Sarcastic was guilty:

[On NP 3 kills in a private PM] You have a Mafia kill, Sarcastic's waive... and another killer? On top of the murder-suicide roles in place? And this 3rd killer has a mechanic to hide their kills (and hence is probably anti-town) ? That could mean 3 anti-town killers under the scenario that Sarcastic didn't 'defect' . Obviously, if you don't believe there are 3 anti-town killers then you have to question the existing killers. Mafia obviously existed. That means the second kill had to be Sarcastic's... but he supposedly 'waived' . Ergo, he was lying.

A bit of clear thinking like that and Sarcastic would have been caught! That, aside from the implications of a killing role that can just change sides... F-16's lynch means game given HCP had not submitted an action in time.

TV deserves credit for lasting as long as he did, and Sarcastic for his bold claim. FT had some strong insights, yet also muddled the waters. Danielle and Maxx were really the only ones to think of the big picture. Those people get the credit for certain points, although many (like F-16) did a lot. They had the right ideas, just not all the right ideas, nor the ability to figure out which of their ideas to follow...

Obviously, this summary isn't conclusive, but I hope it's sufficient!

Feedback

I'm always open to feedback, in fact, it's one thing I quite like. Please give some insight on the following if possible:

1. Do you think this game was well balanced? Why / why not?
2. Is my modding style too haphazard? Should I be less creative with roles?
3. Did I mod well?
4. Was this game enjoyable?
5. Did you enjoy the OPs and endscenes of mine? *
6. Any particular role or ideas you want to see back in the future?

*I know that they have story elements and my writing is poor at times, but still answer this!

I'm interested in hearing any and all feedback - criticism helps at times. I'd be interested to hear from past players in my games how this ranks. I know this game was rather violent and more powerful in brute force than other games for instance - less subtle plotting.

Finally, let me again extend my thanks to all of you for playing in my game. I know that many of you are time pressed, and committing to this may have been difficult, so I thank you all the more for it. I hope that I can repeat this success with all of the creme de la creme next time.

And so a curtain draws on the tragic tale of Delderra.

Logic
"Tis not in mortals to command success
But we"ll do more, Sempronius, we"ll deserve it
tulle
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3/1/2013 11:48:27 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
Great game! I really have to commend Sarcastic and TV. I thought the game was over with mine and Bull's fvxk ups.
yang.
IFLYHIGH
Posts: 5,223
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3/2/2013 12:21:42 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
I actually want to read through this game when I have a chance. Seems like there was some epic drama and flamewars. I thought I wouldn't have enough time to play and then I suddenly gained a lot more free time then I thought I would... right when I was replaced. Oh well, I think Sarcastic played better than I could have, so maybe it turned out for the best.

Good job Sarcastic and TV. And curse you Budda for stealing my town role!
IFLYHIGH
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3/2/2013 12:40:42 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
The only reason I asked to be town btw was because I had been scum in like every game since Fire and Ice. I think that's nine games.
F-16_Fighting_Falcon
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3/2/2013 12:42:43 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
So much to say. It was somewhat of a shock that my role was a joke.

TV and Sarcastic played just great! That DP1 behavior from TV made me lean heavily town on him and even on NP2, I watched him since he seemed like the most obvious town. It only started to slip later when he said Drafter was town and disappeared without offering any sort of defense to Drafter. It seemed so much like scum-TV to oppose a lynch without reasoning and say "I told you so" later.

Anyways, coming to the game, I think the first 3 DPs, town was absolutely on the right track and played to near perfection capitalizing ruthlessly on the mafia mistakes. DP4 was when it all started to fall apart. My suspicion on drafter was off but I was able to backtrack in time although it wouldn't have mattered because Drafter was dead anyways. However, I think that we can agree that the real goof-up was lynching FT who was being active and pro-town.

FT, I apologize for pushing your lynch. There was a lot of analysis that could have been made to figure out that you were town. For instance, I could have stuck to my guns about TV being scum on DP4 and tried to convince you otherwise and in a perfect scenario, I would have done that. But this game was really confusing and I never was able to really get a very solid townread on you so was always wondering "what if?" What if you really were the scum having a townread on TV for no reason at all? The fact that TV voted someone townreading him further made him look like town although the reasoning was BS (everything boils down to WIFOM). BUT hindsight is 20-20 and at that point, it was impossible to tell. You presented an alternative of lynching Budda which I didn't want to do because the more I thought about it, the more it just seemed silly that a scum would cc a fellow scum and could only redirect actions to self. I think Maxx had some good analysis about how unlikely it was that mafia would rolecop the one player who hadn't yet claimed - and you were right. If I suspected that mafia had a rolecop, I should have lynched TV. But no one really seemed to like that idea besides Danielle and she was very inactive and unvoted quickly. So, it came down to you and I didn't really give you a chance so I am sorry about that. It sucks to not be given a chance to prove your innocence so I'll try and change that in my playstyle from now on. Budda's case was semi-legit but very townlike as was his drunk posting.

DP5, I think I got right back in stride going after TV. I didn't find my defense lacking at all, but the damage was done in the previous DP with Drafter, TUF, and HCP. I can at least understand why Drafter suspected me although I wish I was given a chance (it's what I regret doing with FT myself), I cannot even begin to understand what made HCP townread TV so badly, call me hypocritical and tell me that I should suspect TUF whose innocence was as good as mod-confirmed so I am a little irritated here - definitely more frustrated than I cared to show. Drafter at least had a semblance of reason for voting the way he did. TUF had it right but he was unfortunately dead. Wish TUF was alive and someone else was dead. Town still had a chance at that point. Maxx was on the right track too with TV: of course TV knew that Alastair was a fake-claim because Alastair was his buddy. Good catch there Maxx.

Overall, mafia had a bad start but bounced back well. TV and Sarcastic were ridiculously good and I never expected Sarcastic to be this good at the game. I read through the DPs again and I am much more impressed with Danielle's skills and respect her abilities a lot more than before. I just wish we pushed hard enough and lynched TV instead of compromising with Budda because if you pushed TV's lynch I would have supported that. The game would have pretty much been in the bag.

The major mistake for me (besides suspecting Drafter and FT) was believing Sarcastic's fake claim. Logic had pointed out to me after I died why it had to be fake. I think there were bright spots as well. Bull's lynch was a good effort by the town and Tulle's lynch had some good analysis built in as well.

Thanks Logic for a great game.

Feedback:
1) Balance: I think this was difficult to town with dead people floating around as well as the Man of the Manor being mafia. But I like difficult challenges and puzzles so no complaints on that one. A well-modded game.
2) Don't be less creative. Creativity is great and makes people think outside the box a lot.
3) Yes, you modded fabulously. I still can't believe you gave me that role as a joke. I actually thought I could random-kill three people.
4) The OPs and Endscenes were great. I love reading swordfight stories and you quenched my thirst for them. I think you made a slight mistake in DP1 OP though. One of the 10 couldn't stay with the Man with the Boutonniere. Since he was one of them as well, it should be one of the 9 remaining. It is very minor though as to be irrelevant. It just bugged me a bit. Your OPs were engaging, interesting and drew a lot of attention.
5) Role ideas for the future: I don't know. I'd like to see a real version of my role.
F-16_Fighting_Falcon
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3/2/2013 12:43:37 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 3/2/2013 12:21:42 AM, IFLYHIGH wrote:
I actually want to read through this game when I have a chance. Seems like there was some epic drama and flamewars. I thought I wouldn't have enough time to play and then I suddenly gained a lot more free time then I thought I would... right when I was replaced. Oh well, I think Sarcastic played better than I could have, so maybe it turned out for the best.

Good job Sarcastic and TV. And curse you Budda for stealing my town role!

Actually there weren't. Not in the style of flame wars with you-know-who. It was more intense arguing than a "flame-war."
IFLYHIGH
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3/2/2013 12:46:56 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 3/2/2013 12:43:37 AM, F-16_Fighting_Falcon wrote:
At 3/2/2013 12:21:42 AM, IFLYHIGH wrote:
I actually want to read through this game when I have a chance. Seems like there was some epic drama and flamewars. I thought I wouldn't have enough time to play and then I suddenly gained a lot more free time then I thought I would... right when I was replaced. Oh well, I think Sarcastic played better than I could have, so maybe it turned out for the best.

Good job Sarcastic and TV. And curse you Budda for stealing my town role!

Actually there weren't. Not in the style of flame wars with you-know-who. It was more intense arguing than a "flame-war."

Even better.
tvellalott
Posts: 10,864
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3/2/2013 2:39:22 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
I have a lot to say, but can't on my phone.
F16 played excellently.
"Caitlyn Jenner is an incredibly brave and stunningly beautiful woman."

Muh threads
Using mafia tactics in real-life: http://www.debate.org...
6 years of DDO: http://www.debate.org...
SarcasticIndeed
Posts: 2,215
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3/2/2013 4:18:53 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
Well, I didn't believe my claim would be received with such acceptance from others, but once it has, it has been pretty easy to stay in the background and only occasionally give my opinion on something...

Also, props to Maxx. He noticed some things that were easily missed by others. Had he not changed his mind about me, mafia might have lost, actually. There was some really good play in this game, and the least of it was from me. Good game, all, good game.
<SIGNATURE CENSORED> nac
SarcasticIndeed
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3/2/2013 4:50:50 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 3/1/2013 11:20:15 PM, Logic_on_rails wrote:
1. Do you think this game was well balanced? Why / why not?
I don't think there's such a thing as a balanced game, as long as one side is overly over-powered. It all depends on who is killed each NPs, who gets an important role, etc. But as a template, I'd say yes, it was balanced. Mafia was pretty well countered by some townroles.
2. Is my modding style too haphazard? Should I be less creative with roles?
Definitely not! It's weird roles like the one I got that make the game even more fun.
3. Did I mod well?
I'd say yes.
4. Was this game enjoyable?
Very, looking forward to your next game, especially if it has a bit more of a passive tone (no potential for 6 kills in a night, like this one (2 murder-suicide + 2 maf kill)).
5. Did you enjoy the OPs and endscenes of mine? *
I'll confess here I still haven't fully read the OP DP1. But from what I did read, I liked it. End scenes were nice as well. It was pretty satisfying hearing how everyone in the OP was shocked about drafter being dead for a long time before they thought he actually died.
6. Any particular role or ideas you want to see back in the future?

Although it's not a really rare role, a mason such as maxxx was would be neat to see in the future. My role was pretty neat as well.
<SIGNATURE CENSORED> nac
SarcasticIndeed
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3/2/2013 4:59:55 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
I am actually sad I haven't chosen to kill TV in the end... I didn't want Delderra to meet such an unfortunate fate. But it's over now, no point in looking back, eh.
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FourTrouble
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3/2/2013 5:59:04 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
I'm very disappointed with this game, particularly with the play of the Town. I'm seeing a pattern with this game and Steampunk that should be a wake up call to some players - First, town mislynched only twice and lost. Second, lynching me lost the game. Third, I was pro-town as fvck in both games. What does this mean? It means stop rushing lynches like you guys did on F-16, and more importantly, stop lynching me for no reason whatsoever when I'm playing extremely pro-town.

For the record, I would never have lynched Budda if he hadn't voted for me. I wanted so badly to vote someone else but what am I supposed to do when someone does a 180 on all of their previous analysis? There were just so many factors that made Budda the correct lynch for that Day.

F-16, why did you completely ignore Budda's turn on his analysis? I had no behavior even remotely close to being as scummy as that. He took no time whatsoever to consider his read of me. He just voted for me immediately after I voted for him. This, and rb'ing maxx, led me to conclude Sarcastic/Budda were scum. I was even pushing for you guys to reconsider Sarcastic on D4 which would have been a huge win for Town.

There was just so much bad play from both F-16, Budda, drafter and maxx, and HCP. Budda voting for me made any other lynch on D4 a near impossibility. It was easily as bad a move as F-16's vote, which was something like, maybe FT is scum so therefore let's lynch him instead of letting him keep playing pro-town as fvck. F-16's single good moment, his case on tulle, is completely over shadowed by lynching me, my opinion.

F-16, you're also wrong, I was open to a TV lynch on the basis of POE so it wouldn't have taken a lot to convince me. I had a single town tell on TV that I started questioning later in the Day. I realized it wasn't as towny as I initially thought. The reason I went for Budda first was because Danielle had a behavioral read on TV that I trusted more than my own, but more importantly, because Budda's reaction to my vote was terrible, especially coming from him. And F-16, I would never have lynched you after your push for tulle so you're wrong that I OMGUS'ed you. I was the person who pushed for you as town, not mafia more than anyone else. I said you could be third-party but that was a possibility I was ignoring because I was focusing on mafia. Contrary to popular opinion, I don't randomly OMGUS people. That honor goes to Budda.

Anyway, I was right about more stuff than any other player in the game. I consider my play here some of my best. I even figured out there were effectively no third-parties (and got FOS'ed for this). I strongly defended ishall, and then basically saved maxx on D2. I pushed for a lynch on the right people, and Budda was the right person to lynch when I pushed for his lynch. I got a really great town read on Danielle and even told HCP to protect her. This is not the kind of player you lynch. You lynch players like Budda who do things like rb'ing maxx when he was gonna murder-suicide Sarcastic...

What bothers me is I have this reputation for being a bad player because I get lynched as Town a lot when there is literally nothing I can do not to get lynched. The only way I see of surviving on DDO is shutting up and keeping all of my thoughts to myself. Basically, doing nothing. That's how people survive on this site. Has anyone ever considered how problematic that meta is?

Anyway, I apologize if this offends anyone. To be honest, I was really upset with my lynch. Much more so than in other games. It reminds me of Steampunk but much worse. This time, it wasn't Lannan lynching me. It was F-16, Budda, and maxx. As I said, a total and deserved loss for the Town who lynched me.
TUF
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3/2/2013 9:10:23 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
So yeah my role PM didn't clarify that sarcastic needed to die in order to win. I was hoping to win as 3p survivor and skate to the endgame.
"I've got to go and grab a shirt" ~ Airmax1227
F-16_Fighting_Falcon
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3/2/2013 9:34:33 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 3/2/2013 5:59:04 AM, FourTrouble wrote:

F-16, why did you completely ignore Budda's turn on his analysis? I had no behavior even remotely close to being as scummy as that. He took no time whatsoever to consider his read of me. He just voted for me immediately after I voted for him.

He looked like town. Townies don't always play optimally but sometimes they just manage to look like town. While I regret voting for you, I think defending him was the right call. The only "right" lynch was lynching TV or Sarcastic. All other lynches were "wrong" lynches.

F-16, you're also wrong, I was open to a TV lynch on the basis of POE so it wouldn't have taken a lot to convince me.

I wish I had and I am sorry that I didn't. But like I said, if I was confident enough about TV, I would have challenged your read. But I was always wondering "what if TV is town and FT is buddying him?"

I agree that you were right about a ton of stuff in the game. You were probably right about everything besides your read on TV. It was obvious Danielle was town because with Sarcastic once being scum, there was no way a second scum would be a "target." I didn't realize it quick enough but came to that conclusion too late in the game.

I don't think you are a bad player because you got lynched as town. I think the people that voted on your lynch should seriously reconsider their play (me, Budda). Nobody thinks you are a bad player for that. You are a great player and you have amazing reads. You also have such a good scum meta and it is nearly impossible to tell apart. Remember when I used to have good reads on you (like Social's philosopher game and Budda's Electronics game)? Now it is just getting harder because you are becoming so good as scum.

I don't think you are giving Maxx enough credit though - he argued against your lynch.
maxx233
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3/2/2013 11:02:55 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
Finally getting around to the endgame :) I thought this was a fantastic game, although I agree with FT that town had some epic screwups, the most significant of which was the FT mislynch. I really need to find a balance in when I finally choose to put a vote on someone - on one hand I have no doubt that TV could easily have been lynched DP5 if we'd just calmed the frick down and kept votes off for longer, which I feel should have been particularly obvious at that time. But then on the other hand, for completely selfish reasons, I hate having to hammer and thus need to vote earlier.

FT's mislynch
FT was playing very town-ish, but that's the problem - FT is so excellent as mafia that I'd expect him to play so pro-town. My wild theory I had about him faking the same role as me was completely within the realm of possibility in my mind. Expecting to be dead myself, I made my fears known DP2 because I was very worried that he wouldn't murder suicide afterall (which I felt at the time would be nearly complete confirmation of my fear.) Lo-and-behold, he didn't murder suicide. My defense of FT really had nothing to do with buddying, if anything that was hurting his defense for me. But ultimately, after getting so deep into it I felt like I had to stay true to my own fears from DP2. If I HAD actually died NP2 as planned, and FT hadn't - the whole game I would have been yelling at the screen, "Why aren't these people lynching him!!!!" Budda and FT both had plenty going for them to suggest they were town, but that was ultimately what made me finally tip I suppose along with whatever the other reasons I gave at the time were

Maxx's most foolish mistake
Then I made another critical mistake and assumed that since DP4 had been 23 pages long, I had plenty of time with DP5. I actually highly suspected Sarcastic and TV. TV I was darn near certain was scum - his specific results on Budda just didn't match the vague mysterious results he was spewing at all. He was most definitely getting lynched. But I didn't want to highlight that slip any more than I had so early on because I was angling for a loftier goal of baiting sarcastic. Why did I suspect sarcastic? The mason thread (and of course it made no sense to leave the mafia NP1.) While deliberating on a vig target I had suggested TV, and it seemed to get awkwardly dismissed by Sarcastic. Then he jumped the gun and submitted his night action to vig budda. The whole exchange rubbed me the wrong way, but it was played off well and I felt I'd need just a liiitle bit more to finally be sure either one way or the other. So assuming there was plenty of time, I tried to be sure. Oops ;) In retrospect, I should have just been more firm with TV's lynch and pushed harder for it. Either TV flipping scum would have been enough to go after Sarcastic, or F16 and I both pressing it very hard would have put Sarcastic in an awkward position and produced just the sort of confirmation I was looking for to begin with.

Mafia summary
Overall, I agree that TV and Sarcastic played very well. TV's slipup in CCing my Alastair claim was too soft and hard to prove (ironically enough, when I made the claim I was intentionally baiting a CC. But I did have to consider the possibility that he had simply called out my BS with remarkable accuracy, since Alastair did surface and appeared legit enough), the budda slip up was the only real stumble and I didn't process it til later. Sarcastic was very bold in claiming, and stayed just perfectly aloof to not come under too much suspicion after the claim. If the vibe from the mason thread hadn't happened, and he'd bussed TV - I have little doubt he'd have been one of the last remaining players and almost certainly still won.

Town summary
As far as town - As I've already explained in depth I think I had great ideas and decent execution (by far my best so far as town, I feel. Typically I'd say I suck as town, and my biggest scumtell is still being alive near the end of the game lol) But I fell short in several very key places. F16 was brilliant with tulle, but had some suspicious behaviors the next DP. Pushing the lynch of FT hurt badly, but I understand his reasoning of not being able to tell when FT is town or scum because his scum play is so good. FT, even though he died too soon, had excellent play and still was able to contribute a lot before getting lynched. We would have lost much faster without him, and probably won had he not been lynched. If it's any consolation FT, you have my vote for mvp

Game Feedback
As far as the game itself - the roles were great, the story great, and there was plenty of mystery. I'm actually thinking there was perhaps too much mystery - if town hadn't been very lucky early on I'm not sure it would have been possible to win. I think the roles were well balanced, but a small stroke of bad luck could have thrown it all off (ie, if FT had been NK'd when mestari was.) Logic, you were a great mod as always. I must apologize for my own actions in breaking the rules in regards to the whole paraphrasing fiasco. I do sincerely agree that it's breaking the rules which I fully agree with, but I also see it as the longstanding norm for whatever reason and felt that the rules had to be so extremely flouted in order to more concretely reaffirm why we have and should actually enforce them. I'm sorry that your game happened to be where that opportunity best presented itself, but I think you handled it well and I do thank you for a more creative solution than modkilling me! ;)
Bull_Diesel
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3/2/2013 11:25:22 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
i thought this was a great game.

I wish I hadn't tried to play at the beginning when I didn't really have time to commit to it. My major mis-step in fake claiming really screwed us, but I guess at some level it satisfied the town and made them less anxious about having a couple of mis-lynches because they had already hit scum.

Either way, great game.
tvellalott
Posts: 10,864
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3/3/2013 12:54:52 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
I really enjoyed this game. It was extremely tense the last two day phases, as I needed to see through two mislynches, among players of various confirmation (all equally or more confirmed than me) to ensure I won. If I were killed, Sarcastic would have won alone as a 3P.

I treated Bull's claim very opportunistically. I knew he would likely be lynched, so I just went for it. tulle, I really wanted to keep alive. I told her NOT to claim head doctor and to just claim a regular doctor since with all the actual doctors, her claim would have been less dangerous. Town would have known one of the doctors was likely mafia, but not which one. She almost certainly wouldn't have been lynched, at least not for another day phase at least (allowing us to use her piercing kill).

Killing two people per night phase, one of which was 'hidden' (thus giving town a false sense of security against LYLO/MYLO situations was very handy. I do think we were maybe overpowered; the game was balanced out only because we lost two mafia in the first two phases...

I pulled out all my mafia tricks to appear pro-town and for the most part it worked. Unfortunately it means that people won't trust me as town again for a while. :P
I wanted maxx dead, but no-one was going that way (and I thought he was some sort of cult leader right up until endgame) so I had to drop it.
I thought Danielle and F-16 were extremely dangerous this game. I was actually annoyed I didn't kill her NP1, which is my normal SOP.

I had to be really careful with my fake claim. I laid some open-ended breadcrumbs based on what I could possibly claim (and prove).

Let it be known though, that I wanted to give F-16 a chance, so we killed Budda rather than him.

I made the decision to disappear drafter DP4. What did you all think when that happened? I really didn't want him to be lynched since we'd already killed him. I thought him just dying suddenly would have adequately confused everyone. His death indirectly led to FT being lynched, which was a major turning point in the game.

I knew going into DP5 that it was all or nothing. I knew I had HCP fooled. Sarcastic was feeding me information from the mason PM, so I knew that ishall/TUF(2) and maxx were considering killing F-16. Little did I know drafter would replace in and tunnel on F-16.

1. Do you think this game was well balanced? Why / why not?
I think if mafia hadn't lost two players (based purely on analysis and their claims no less), mafia would have completely dominated. We were lucky in that I was able to predict who would be doc'd and who wouldn't (like guessing that TUF wouldn't doc himself). I don't see much built into the game that would have prevented that really...

2. Is my modding style too haphazard? Should I be less creative with roles?
Definitely no! I enjoyed this game immensely.

3. Did I mod well?
Sometimes the phases took a bit too long to get put up, but I understand that and don't think it detracted too much from the game.

4. Was this game enjoyable?
YES!

5. Did you enjoy the OPs and endscenes of mine? *
YES!

6. Any particular role or ideas you want to see back in the future?
You just do what you do logic.
"Caitlyn Jenner is an incredibly brave and stunningly beautiful woman."

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tvellalott
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3/3/2013 2:52:55 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
Sure, give me a minute.
"Caitlyn Jenner is an incredibly brave and stunningly beautiful woman."

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tvellalott
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3/3/2013 2:59:14 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 3/1/2013 11:20:15 PM, Logic_on_rails wrote:
Now, there's one matter I feel I need to discuss - TV knowing Budda's 1 shot self redirect. Now, TV played well this game, but without this he probably would have died a lot sooner. Basically, TV asked IFLY for Budda's role while I was offline. I wasn't happy at this. However, town had blatantly cheated and copy and pasted roles and then used such cheating to form suspicions on people like Tulle. I decided to not punish TV because the town had broken the rules, plus I knew that Budda's role had a hidden modnote which could screw TV over. The town did get punished for breaking rules.

I didn't know this was a problem. You told us that I couldn't use my role NP1 because you had already accidently told IFLY Budda's role. Then, because Budda claimed anyway (albeit without the extra 'only target myself' bit) you allowed my role use. If I'd know this information was still supposed to be hidden from me (which was NEVER said outright) I wouldn't have claimed to have investigated him.
"Caitlyn Jenner is an incredibly brave and stunningly beautiful woman."

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Logic_on_rails
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3/3/2013 3:24:49 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
It's great to see so many people enjoyed this game a lot! If the rest of the endgame comments echo the current ones then I'll be happy to have done such a fine job.

With regards to game balance, I'd just like to remind people of the impressive array of roles allayed against Alastair. People don't seem to realise just how well town did despite next to no information being garnered from investigative roles (through bad luck and selfish doctors) . Town had an investigative JOAT plus a potential cop (Danielle) and Mafia had no protection against any and all investigations. Plus, if Maxx had killed Sarcastic... Mafia would be in lots of trouble. Like I said before, Mafia were probably a bit overpowered, yet not to 'domination' as some have said. However, I'll keep the comments in mind for future... it was a little bit hard to predict Alastair's exact power in game design!

Let's keep the posts coming folks. It's fantastic to see you all enjoyed Madness in Delderra!
"Tis not in mortals to command success
But we"ll do more, Sempronius, we"ll deserve it
FourTrouble
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3/3/2013 4:23:21 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 3/3/2013 2:59:14 AM, tvellalott wrote:
At 3/1/2013 11:20:15 PM, Logic_on_rails wrote:
Now, there's one matter I feel I need to discuss - TV knowing Budda's 1 shot self redirect. Now, TV played well this game, but without this he probably would have died a lot sooner. Basically, TV asked IFLY for Budda's role while I was offline. I wasn't happy at this. However, town had blatantly cheated and copy and pasted roles and then used such cheating to form suspicions on people like Tulle. I decided to not punish TV because the town had broken the rules, plus I knew that Budda's role had a hidden modnote which could screw TV over. The town did get punished for breaking rules.

I didn't know this was a problem. You told us that I couldn't use my role NP1 because you had already accidently told IFLY Budda's role. Then, because Budda claimed anyway (albeit without the extra 'only target myself' bit) you allowed my role use. If I'd know this information was still supposed to be hidden from me (which was NEVER said outright) I wouldn't have claimed to have investigated him.

This was the sole reason I didn't push your lynch through. It was definitely game changing.
tvellalott
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3/3/2013 4:47:09 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 3/3/2013 4:23:21 AM, FourTrouble wrote:
At 3/3/2013 2:59:14 AM, tvellalott wrote:
At 3/1/2013 11:20:15 PM, Logic_on_rails wrote:
Now, there's one matter I feel I need to discuss - TV knowing Budda's 1 shot self redirect. Now, TV played well this game, but without this he probably would have died a lot sooner. Basically, TV asked IFLY for Budda's role while I was offline. I wasn't happy at this. However, town had blatantly cheated and copy and pasted roles and then used such cheating to form suspicions on people like Tulle. I decided to not punish TV because the town had broken the rules, plus I knew that Budda's role had a hidden modnote which could screw TV over. The town did get punished for breaking rules.

I didn't know this was a problem. You told us that I couldn't use my role NP1 because you had already accidently told IFLY Budda's role. Then, because Budda claimed anyway (albeit without the extra 'only target myself' bit) you allowed my role use. If I'd know this information was still supposed to be hidden from me (which was NEVER said outright) I wouldn't have claimed to have investigated him.

This was the sole reason I didn't push your lynch through. It was definitely game changing.

If you look at the mafia PMs, you can see why it was assumed (at least by me) that we began with this information. IFLY knew Buddas role pre-game. Logic was going to force my first night action on to Budda, thus preventing us from doing the Alistair thing and probably hurting the hell out of mafia. IFLY said "that's my old role". Now, if I were so inclined, I could have delayed the game further (since simply telling Budda to shut up worked exactly as I intended it too) and gone through the other games to find out which role IFLY was talking about.
To me, asking IFLY what role he had had was not breaking the rules, since it was assumed we'd started with that information, I was just hurrying the process since IFLY was online at the time when that point came up.
What I SHOULD have done was get the full role out of IFLY at the beginning of the game. If I'd done that, I would have known Budda was hiding the fact he could only redirect on time himself and would have still been able to manipulate it as I did.
I didn't make the fvck up here. I just took advantage of it.
I'm evil, you should all know this by now.
"Caitlyn Jenner is an incredibly brave and stunningly beautiful woman."

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FourTrouble
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3/3/2013 4:54:46 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
Wait, TV. Did you keep the information about Budda's role to yourself on purpose when you claimed? Or did you not know that information yet?
tvellalott
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3/3/2013 5:46:22 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 3/3/2013 4:54:46 AM, FourTroublele wrote:
Wait, TV. Did you keep the information about Budda's role to yourself on purpose when you claimed? Or did you not know that information yet?

Based on what I was told, Budda had fully claimed.
He was an obvious target for a fake investigation.
When I said his role was public knowledge, that was me trying to fake a result to suggest he had fully claimed. Then, he was like 'I withheld part of my role' so I told him to shut up, so it would seem like I planned to hide the info he withheld and delay him a bit. I did it all on the fly. During that time I saw ifly was online so I asked him what Budda's role was, rather then go through all the games to find the one where he was a roleblocker/redirector
"Caitlyn Jenner is an incredibly brave and stunningly beautiful woman."

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