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BEGINNERS 13.2 - Day Phase 1

drafterman
Posts: 18,870
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3/4/2013 1:59:33 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
Introduction to Role Madness:

The previous round was a watered-down version of mafia, relying more on behavioral cues and tells. While these are good skills to have and develop, a majority of the games on DDO are considered to be "Role Madness" games. That is, everyone - or almost everyone - has some role which confers active or passive abilities that players may use during the Night Phase. The details of your roles are explained in your role PM. If you have questions, please ask me in that PM and I will do me best to explain, without giving too much away.

In these games, the issue of information becomes paramount. Who do you target with your role? What do you do with the results? Will they help town? Will I get killed in response? Do I wait and get more information and risk being killed in the night or do I reveal my information now? Unfortunately, you will almost always have to answer them yourself. Trust no one but yourself.

Set-up:
This round will be semi-open. I will provide a list of roles. All roles in the game will be on that list, but not all roles on that list will be in the game.

Town-Sided Roles:
Cop - You are the COP. Each night you may target another player and learn whether they win with the TOWN or the MAFIA. You win with the TOWN.
Lie Detector - You are the LIE DETECTOR. Each night you may target one statement made by another player and learn whether or not it is true or false. You win with the TOWN.
Doctor - You are the DOCTOR. Each night you may select another player to protect them from a single kill. You may not target yourself. You win with the TOWN.
Jail Keeper - You are the JAIL KEEPER. Each night you may select another player to protect them from any and all kills. You will also prevent them from using their role. You may not target yourself. You win with the TOWN.
Watcher - You are the WATCHER. Each night you may select another player. You will learn the names of all the players that visited them that night. You win with the TOWN.
Tracker - You are the TRACKER. Each night you may select another player. You will learn the names of all the players that they visit that night. You win with the TOWN.
Bulletproof - You are BULLETPROOF. You cannot be killed at night. You win with the TOWN.
Commuter - You are the COMMUTER. You cannot be targeted at night. You win with the TOWN.
Vigilante - You are the VIGILANTE. Each night you may target another player to die. You win with the TOWN.
Paranoid Gun Owner - You are the PARANOID GUN OWNER. Anyone that visits you at night will be killed. You win with the TOWN.

Mafia-Sided Roles:
Rolecop - You are the ROLE COP. Each night you may target another player and learn their Role PM. You win with the MAFIA.
Lookout - You are the LOOK OUT. Each night you may select another player. You will learn the names of all the players that visited them that night. You win with the MAFIA.
Roleblocker - You are the ROLEBLOCKER. Each night you may target another player and prevent them from using their role. You win with the MAFIA.
Rolestopper - You are the ROLESTOPPER. Each night you may target another player. No other player will be able to target them that night. You win with the MAFIA.

Mod Notes:
1. The descriptions above are how they appear in each players' Role PM.

2. Some of these roles will provide results to the player at the end of the Night Phase (Cop, Lie Detector, Watcher, Tracker, Role Cop). However, other roles may prevent these roles from getting those results (Jail Keeper, Commuter, Role Blocker, Role Stopper). However, there are no roles that can modify or alter results (as may be seen in other games). So if you get results, you can trust them - for this game.

3. In processing Roles and Actions I use the following rules:
- Apply actions which modify others' actions before the actions they modify.
- Outside of that (unmodified) actions will happen simultaneously.
- Killing doesn't stop the actions of the dead player. Imagine that all kills happen at the end of the night, and everyone pulls the trigger simultaneously.
- Paradoxes or Contradictions will be resolved through Random Number Generation.

4. Read and Review the previous Game:
13.1 - DP1 - http://debate.org...
13.1 - DP2 - http://debate.org...
drafterman
Posts: 18,870
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3/4/2013 2:02:42 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
Living Players:
1. Maikuru
2. ChubbyFatz
3. THEVIRUS
4. Famer
5. TSH
6. Skepsikyma
7. FourTrouble

With 7 players, it takes 4 votes to lynch.
This Day Phase will end no later than 2PM DDO time on 3/6.

Reminders: Failure to lynch before the Time Limit will result in a No Lynch. All Affiliations and Roles were determined randomly.
THEVIRUS
Posts: 1,321
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3/4/2013 2:14:14 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
Lets get going. Okay my initial guess is 2 mafia (maybe 3) and Mai is probably not mafia if it is only 2. If it is 3 everyone is fair game.

So i want to know from each person what their thought is on this being a night ability game. Just curious, and i feel i can gain something from each person based on how they answer.

NOTE: This will be my first analysis, and everything you say from the answering of this question and farther into the game will (in my mind) stem from how you respond. If possible, it would help if everyone responded
"So you want me to go to the judge with 'unit, corps, God, country'?" - A Few Good Men

"And the hits just keep on comin'." -A Few Good Men
FourTrouble
Posts: 12,777
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3/4/2013 2:20:27 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 3/4/2013 2:14:14 PM, THEVIRUS wrote:
Lets get going. Okay my initial guess is 2 mafia (maybe 3) and Mai is probably not mafia if it is only 2. If it is 3 everyone is fair game.

Why does Maikuru's affiliation depend on whether there are 2 or 3 mafia?

So i want to know from each person what their thought is on this being a night ability game. Just curious, and i feel i can gain something from each person based on how they answer.

This is a pretty vague question, how does this help you start figuring out people's motivations?
FourTrouble
Posts: 12,777
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3/4/2013 2:29:03 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
The SOP on this site is to get a claim or two on D1 and then VTNL, use our abilities, and come back D2 with more information. I personally think a D1 lynch makes more sense but I'll leave the decision up to you.

If we lynch Today we will be 5 players left tomorrow, putting us at LYLO. If we don't lynch Today, tomorrow we will be 6 players, putting us at MYLO. In other words, lynching gives us an extra chance to kill scum. The only downside is that if we kill town we lose one of our abilities for N1 and that could be just as bad for town as losing one of our lynches.

The SOP on this site is to get a claim or two on D1 and then VTNL, use our abilities, and come back D2 with more information. I personally think a D1 lynch makes more sense but I'll leave the decision up to you.

I'm fine doing either. The main idea here is to get you guys to learn about how roles work and how they interact with each other. Most players on the site prefer to no lynch so if you want to get a feel for how games are run here, that would be the way to go, give you guys a chance to use your roles. On the other hand, risking a lynch D1 is always more fun and exciting.

Whatever the case, we should start pressuring someone and THEVIRUS is as good a place as any to start.

VTL THEVIRUS
Skepsikyma
Posts: 8,287
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3/4/2013 2:41:58 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
My thought is that, at this point, there's no hard data to go by. If we decide to lynch, we statistically have a higher chance of killing a town player than not, which would be undesirable. If we lynch, it is also more likely that the process would be directed by mafia players, as they have a vested interest in promoting a mislynch while also possessing explicit knowledge of who the mafia and town players are. Town players, on the other hand, have nothing to go by other than guesswork, and stand a high risk of being manipulated by the more informed mafia players to make a decision which proves deleterious to their overall aims.

Therefore, I VTNL.
"The Collectivist experiment is thoroughly suited (in appearance at least) to the Capitalist society which it proposes to replace. It works with the existing machinery of Capitalism, talks and thinks in the existing terms of Capitalism, appeals to just those appetites which Capitalism has aroused, and ridicules as fantastic and unheard-of just those things in society the memory of which Capitalism has killed among men wherever the blight of it has spread."
- Hilaire Belloc -
THEVIRUS
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3/4/2013 3:57:08 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 3/4/2013 2:20:27 PM, FourTrouble wrote:
At 3/4/2013 2:14:14 PM, THEVIRUS wrote:
Lets get going. Okay my initial guess is 2 mafia (maybe 3) and Mai is probably not mafia if it is only 2. If it is 3 everyone is fair game.

Why does Maikuru's affiliation depend on whether there are 2 or 3 mafia?

because the chance that 2/7 he will be picked added with the fact he was mafia last round means a slightly better chance he isn't mafia than the rest of us (this is all theory) and if it is 3/7 the amount is 1/7 greater chanced he is repacked, and in my experience with games such as these when you make half the group evil at random, the old mafia is a wild card (no clear way of knowing)

All I am saying is the fact he was already mafia makes him just slightly less likely to be mafia again if it is 2/7 are mafia

So i want to know from each person what their thought is on this being a night ability game. Just curious, and i feel i can gain something from each person based on how they answer.

This is a pretty vague question, how does this help you start figuring out people's motivations?

If they say anything about attack or defense or anything like that it narrows down role possibilities, and it may in the end help us find mafia
"So you want me to go to the judge with 'unit, corps, God, country'?" - A Few Good Men

"And the hits just keep on comin'." -A Few Good Men
FourTrouble
Posts: 12,777
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3/4/2013 3:57:23 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
We don't want to go into the Night Phase blind either so it's a good idea to get at least 1 claim out there and get a feel for how people react to different things. We may want to end the Day in a VTNL but it is premature at this point.
FourTrouble
Posts: 12,777
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3/4/2013 3:58:28 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
THEVIRUS, the roles and affiliations are assigned randomly. What reason is there to believe Maikuru is less likely to be mafia than the rest of us?
THEVIRUS
Posts: 1,321
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3/4/2013 4:01:02 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 3/4/2013 2:29:03 PM, FourTrouble wrote:
The SOP on this site is to get a claim or two on D1 and then VTNL, use our abilities, and come back D2 with more information. I personally think a D1 lynch makes more sense but I'll leave the decision up to you.

Lynching day one I agree with, though I am not particularly fond of the position I am in...

If we lynch Today we will be 5 players left tomorrow, putting us at LYLO. If we don't lynch Today, tomorrow we will be 6 players, putting us at MYLO. In other words, lynching gives us an extra chance to kill scum. The only downside is that if we kill town we lose one of our abilities for N1 and that could be just as bad for town as losing one of our lynches.

The SOP on this site is to get a claim or two on D1 and then VTNL, use our abilities, and come back D2 with more information. I personally think a D1 lynch makes more sense but I'll leave the decision up to you.

Nice repeat

I'm fine doing either. The main idea here is to get you guys to learn about how roles work and how they interact with each other. Most players on the site prefer to no lynch so if you want to get a feel for how games are run here, that would be the way to go, give you guys a chance to use your roles. On the other hand, risking a lynch D1 is always more fun and exciting.

Whatever the case, we should start pressuring someone and THEVIRUS is as good a place as any to start.

I guess this is payback for yesterday...

VTL THEVIRUS

Ohhhh this is gonna be a long day
"So you want me to go to the judge with 'unit, corps, God, country'?" - A Few Good Men

"And the hits just keep on comin'." -A Few Good Men
THEVIRUS
Posts: 1,321
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3/4/2013 4:06:01 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 3/4/2013 3:58:28 PM, FourTrouble wrote:
THEVIRUS, the roles and affiliations are assigned randomly. What reason is there to believe Maikuru is less likely to be mafia than the rest of us?

Good point, nvmnd. For some reason I was thinking it was through a program that remembered its list history, and it would randomize the new list based on the old list (I have a very confusing mind sometimes... other times it is worse :D yay me!)

And besides, I was trying to establish a town person, as done by the vet in last game with little info (the person did end up being the mafia) and I try to establish a town person to NOT lynch so we narrow down our suspects. I used the same logic last game and didn't get attacked for it. Why the sudden change FT?
"So you want me to go to the judge with 'unit, corps, God, country'?" - A Few Good Men

"And the hits just keep on comin'." -A Few Good Men
THEVIRUS
Posts: 1,321
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3/4/2013 4:07:53 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
Just wondering, is it bad to claim, or to have one person claim?

Cause if it is fine I will let out enough info it can be tested at night to prove my innocence (if I don't get LYNCHED before then *cough*FT*cough*)
"So you want me to go to the judge with 'unit, corps, God, country'?" - A Few Good Men

"And the hits just keep on comin'." -A Few Good Men
FourTrouble
Posts: 12,777
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3/4/2013 4:08:09 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 3/4/2013 4:06:01 PM, THEVIRUS wrote:
At 3/4/2013 3:58:28 PM, FourTrouble wrote:
THEVIRUS, the roles and affiliations are assigned randomly. What reason is there to believe Maikuru is less likely to be mafia than the rest of us?

Good point, nvmnd. For some reason I was thinking it was through a program that remembered its list history, and it would randomize the new list based on the old list (I have a very confusing mind sometimes... other times it is worse :D yay me!)

And besides, I was trying to establish a town person, as done by the vet in last game with little info (the person did end up being the mafia) and I try to establish a town person to NOT lynch so we narrow down our suspects. I used the same logic last game and didn't get attacked for it. Why the sudden change FT?

I'm not attacking you for trying to narrow down the list of possible scum, I'm attacking the way you are going about it. It was lazy and superficial thinking. Town players usually show more depth to their thought process.
Maikuru
Posts: 9,112
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3/4/2013 4:09:16 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 3/4/2013 3:57:08 PM, THEVIRUS wrote:
At 3/4/2013 2:20:27 PM, FourTrouble wrote:
At 3/4/2013 2:14:14 PM, THEVIRUS wrote:
Lets get going. Okay my initial guess is 2 mafia (maybe 3) and Mai is probably not mafia if it is only 2. If it is 3 everyone is fair game.

Why does Maikuru's affiliation depend on whether there are 2 or 3 mafia?

because the chance that 2/7 he will be picked added with the fact he was mafia last round means a slightly better chance he isn't mafia than the rest of us (this is all theory) and if it is 3/7 the amount is 1/7 greater chanced he is repacked, and in my experience with games such as these when you make half the group evil at random, the old mafia is a wild card (no clear way of knowing)

All I am saying is the fact he was already mafia makes him just slightly less likely to be mafia again if it is 2/7 are mafia


I'd love to jump on this and say well, that proves it! But drafter said it's random lol. I do think you're right about there just being two mafia this time, though. If there were 3 mafia and 4 town, one wrong lynch and games over. Fourtrouble is right about us having an extra lynch if we do it today rather than waiting, but we should wait until everyone's posted.
"You assume I wouldn't want to burn this whole place to the ground."
- lamerde

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FourTrouble
Posts: 12,777
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3/4/2013 4:10:52 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 3/4/2013 4:07:53 PM, THEVIRUS wrote:
Just wondering, is it bad to claim, or to have one person claim?

Cause if it is fine I will let out enough info it can be tested at night to prove my innocence (if I don't get LYNCHED before then *cough*FT*cough*)

This is a very towny post. Keep your claim to yourself. Ideally, we want to force mafia to claim on D1 to lock them into their fake-claim and possibly counter-claim them if they screw up.

Let's go with Skep.

unvote VTL Skep
THEVIRUS
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3/4/2013 4:22:17 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 3/4/2013 4:08:09 PM, FourTrouble wrote:
At 3/4/2013 4:06:01 PM, THEVIRUS wrote:
At 3/4/2013 3:58:28 PM, FourTrouble wrote:
THEVIRUS, the roles and affiliations are assigned randomly. What reason is there to believe Maikuru is less likely to be mafia than the rest of us?

Good point, nvmnd. For some reason I was thinking it was through a program that remembered its list history, and it would randomize the new list based on the old list (I have a very confusing mind sometimes... other times it is worse :D yay me!)

And besides, I was trying to establish a town person, as done by the vet in last game with little info (the person did end up being the mafia) and I try to establish a town person to NOT lynch so we narrow down our suspects. I used the same logic last game and didn't get attacked for it. Why the sudden change FT?

I'm not attacking you for trying to narrow down the list of possible scum, I'm attacking the way you are going about it. It was lazy and superficial thinking. Town players usually show more depth to their thought process.

I was in school when I posted that stuff. This was a way to stop frying my brain
"So you want me to go to the judge with 'unit, corps, God, country'?" - A Few Good Men

"And the hits just keep on comin'." -A Few Good Men
THEVIRUS
Posts: 1,321
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3/4/2013 4:24:28 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 3/4/2013 4:10:52 PM, FourTrouble wrote:
At 3/4/2013 4:07:53 PM, THEVIRUS wrote:
Just wondering, is it bad to claim, or to have one person claim?

Cause if it is fine I will let out enough info it can be tested at night to prove my innocence (if I don't get LYNCHED before then *cough*FT*cough*)

This is a very towny post. Keep your claim to yourself. Ideally, we want to force mafia to claim on D1 to lock them into their fake-claim and possibly counter-claim them if they screw up.

Let's go with Skep.

unvote VTL Skep

I'm on to the point fingers thing

I think I suck at it, but if I point and you interrogate (assuming you are town) we can do this
"So you want me to go to the judge with 'unit, corps, God, country'?" - A Few Good Men

"And the hits just keep on comin'." -A Few Good Men
THEVIRUS
Posts: 1,321
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3/4/2013 4:26:44 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
People need to be more active. I think we need to here from everyone, to see if the returners have changed ways of tackling things, or just what the join ins think in general
"So you want me to go to the judge with 'unit, corps, God, country'?" - A Few Good Men

"And the hits just keep on comin'." -A Few Good Men
famer
Posts: 679
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3/4/2013 5:14:21 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
How come there are fourteen roles but only 7 players alive?
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Skepsikyma
Posts: 8,287
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3/4/2013 5:38:55 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 3/4/2013 4:10:52 PM, FourTrouble wrote:
At 3/4/2013 4:07:53 PM, THEVIRUS wrote:
Just wondering, is it bad to claim, or to have one person claim?

Cause if it is fine I will let out enough info it can be tested at night to prove my innocence (if I don't get LYNCHED before then *cough*FT*cough*)

This is a very towny post. Keep your claim to yourself. Ideally, we want to force mafia to claim on D1 to lock them into their fake-claim and possibly counter-claim them if they screw up.

Let's go with Skep.

unvote VTL Skep

So the way in which I prove myself is by revealing my role? Tell me, in whose interest would it be to, one by one, interrogate players and intimidate them into revealing their roles in the first round? We may have some false claims to work with, but the town player's cards will be laid bare in their efforts to prove their innocence, allowing the mafia to make more targeted and devastating kills of key town players. And what on earth makes you so sure that THEVIRUS is town? The fact that you leap to that conclusion with no concrete evidence is, in itself, suspicious to me. Combine that with the fact that your approach seems to undermine the town's position more than it does the mafia's and one would be prompted to more intently scrutinize your motives, not mine.
"The Collectivist experiment is thoroughly suited (in appearance at least) to the Capitalist society which it proposes to replace. It works with the existing machinery of Capitalism, talks and thinks in the existing terms of Capitalism, appeals to just those appetites which Capitalism has aroused, and ridicules as fantastic and unheard-of just those things in society the memory of which Capitalism has killed among men wherever the blight of it has spread."
- Hilaire Belloc -
Maikuru
Posts: 9,112
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3/4/2013 5:48:34 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 3/4/2013 5:38:55 PM, Skepsikyma wrote:
At 3/4/2013 4:10:52 PM, FourTrouble wrote:
At 3/4/2013 4:07:53 PM, THEVIRUS wrote:
Just wondering, is it bad to claim, or to have one person claim?

Cause if it is fine I will let out enough info it can be tested at night to prove my innocence (if I don't get LYNCHED before then *cough*FT*cough*)

This is a very towny post. Keep your claim to yourself. Ideally, we want to force mafia to claim on D1 to lock them into their fake-claim and possibly counter-claim them if they screw up.

Let's go with Skep.

unvote VTL Skep

So the way in which I prove myself is by revealing my role? Tell me, in whose interest would it be to, one by one, interrogate players and intimidate them into revealing their roles in the first round? We may have some false claims to work with, but the town player's cards will be laid bare in their efforts to prove their innocence, allowing the mafia to make more targeted and devastating kills of key town players. And what on earth makes you so sure that THEVIRUS is town? The fact that you leap to that conclusion with no concrete evidence is, in itself, suspicious to me. Combine that with the fact that your approach seems to undermine the town's position more than it does the mafia's and one would be prompted to more intently scrutinize your motives, not mine.

Well, it's either that or just kind of ask you nicely, right? lol

From reading through other games, voting for someone to help learn something about their roles seems like standard DDO practice. Right now I'm inclined to let the experienced player lead that and see what we can learn from people.
"You assume I wouldn't want to burn this whole place to the ground."
- lamerde

https://i.imgflip.com...
Skepsikyma
Posts: 8,287
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3/4/2013 5:59:22 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 3/4/2013 5:48:34 PM, Maikuru wrote:
At 3/4/2013 5:38:55 PM, Skepsikyma wrote:
At 3/4/2013 4:10:52 PM, FourTrouble wrote:
At 3/4/2013 4:07:53 PM, THEVIRUS wrote:
Just wondering, is it bad to claim, or to have one person claim?

Cause if it is fine I will let out enough info it can be tested at night to prove my innocence (if I don't get LYNCHED before then *cough*FT*cough*)

This is a very towny post. Keep your claim to yourself. Ideally, we want to force mafia to claim on D1 to lock them into their fake-claim and possibly counter-claim them if they screw up.

Let's go with Skep.

unvote VTL Skep

So the way in which I prove myself is by revealing my role? Tell me, in whose interest would it be to, one by one, interrogate players and intimidate them into revealing their roles in the first round? We may have some false claims to work with, but the town player's cards will be laid bare in their efforts to prove their innocence, allowing the mafia to make more targeted and devastating kills of key town players. And what on earth makes you so sure that THEVIRUS is town? The fact that you leap to that conclusion with no concrete evidence is, in itself, suspicious to me. Combine that with the fact that your approach seems to undermine the town's position more than it does the mafia's and one would be prompted to more intently scrutinize your motives, not mine.

Well, it's either that or just kind of ask you nicely, right? lol

From reading through other games, voting for someone to help learn something about their roles seems like standard DDO practice. Right now I'm inclined to let the experienced player lead that and see what we can learn from people.

But what if the experienced player was cast as mafia? The scenario that I'm worrying is consists of FT and TV being cast as mafia players, taking control of the interrogative process, learning as many town rolls as possible, perhaps causing a mislynch, and then killing the most useful town player during the night period. The thing which mainly arises my suspicion is the fact that FT exempted TV from further examination on, as far as I can see, no rational basis whatsoever.
"The Collectivist experiment is thoroughly suited (in appearance at least) to the Capitalist society which it proposes to replace. It works with the existing machinery of Capitalism, talks and thinks in the existing terms of Capitalism, appeals to just those appetites which Capitalism has aroused, and ridicules as fantastic and unheard-of just those things in society the memory of which Capitalism has killed among men wherever the blight of it has spread."
- Hilaire Belloc -
FourTrouble
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3/4/2013 6:06:35 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 3/4/2013 5:38:55 PM, Skepsikyma wrote:
So the way in which I prove myself is by revealing my role? Tell me, in whose interest would it be to, one by one, interrogate players and intimidate them into revealing their roles in the first round?

Town... because Town wants to figure out who the scum are. Mafia just want to get to the night phase as quickly as possible and avoid as much attention as possible.

We may have some false claims to work with, but the town player's cards will be laid bare in their efforts to prove their innocence, allowing the mafia to make more targeted and devastating kills of key town players.

Yes, but if we force mafia to claim first, they run the risk of getting counter-claimed + we lock them into their claim. You also have to consider the advantage for town of having some information going into the night phase. We could have doc protect the cop or vigilante test a bulletproof claim. If town goes in blind, we might end up with a roleblocked cop or vigilante shooting the doc or some other mishap. It is generally agreed, as a standard procedure on THIS site, that getting 1-2 claims before heading to the night phase is better than going in blind.

And what on earth makes you so sure that THEVIRUS is town?

I'm not 100% certain but the way he discussed claiming was very towny. He didn't mind claiming or having attention put on him, he was more interested in helping the town figure the game out with whatever information he could offer. This is not the kind of behavior that comes from mafia. Mafia typically do anything they can to avoid claiming first because claiming runs the risk of a counter claim.

The fact that you leap to that conclusion with no concrete evidence is, in itself, suspicious to me.

Behaviors are evidence, which may not be seems as concrete as investigative results, but once you start playing more complex games with flavors, you'll realize there is no such thing as "concrete" evidence.

There is also nothing scummy about taking positions. In fact, in my experience, the players who avoid taking any stances are the most likely to be scum. Mafia have trouble committing to positions because they already know who the town are and who the scum are. They have trouble fabricating reads that town would actually come to naturally. If you want to look at it from a motivation standpoint, Town offer their reads to get the game moving, get discussion going, and make things happen. Mafia don't like to commit to reads because that narrows their options.

What's the scum motivation for calling someone town? There isn't one really. What's the town motivation? To catch scum through process of elimination.

Combine that with the fact that your approach seems to undermine the town's position more than it does the mafia's and one would be prompted to more intently scrutinize your motives, not mine.

How does my approach undermine the town's position? You're the one who wants to go directly to the night phase without analyzing any behaviors whatsoever or getting any roles out. What's the town motivation for that? I don't see any. The scum motivation is avoiding the risk of counter claiming and getting to D2 where the Town will be at MYLO.

Skep needs to claim.
FourTrouble
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3/4/2013 6:09:56 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 3/4/2013 5:59:22 PM, Skepsikyma wrote:
But what if the experienced player was cast as mafia?

Roles and affiliations were assigned randomly. Are you even paying attention to the game?

The scenario that I'm worrying is consists of FT and TV being cast as mafia players, taking control of the interrogative process, learning as many town rolls as possible, perhaps causing a mislynch, and then killing the most useful town player during the night period. The thing which mainly arises my suspicion is the fact that FT exempted TV from further examination on, as far as I can see, no rational basis whatsoever.

I didn't exempt TV from further examination. You are totally free to call him scum. I'm saying I think he's town. If you disagree, explain why you disagree with me. This is how you get discussion going. We can then examine your thought process and see if it comes from a town point of view or scum point of view.
Skepsikyma
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3/4/2013 6:10:13 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 3/4/2013 6:06:35 PM, FourTrouble wrote:
At 3/4/2013 5:38:55 PM, Skepsikyma wrote:
So the way in which I prove myself is by revealing my role? Tell me, in whose interest would it be to, one by one, interrogate players and intimidate them into revealing their roles in the first round?

Town... because Town wants to figure out who the scum are. Mafia just want to get to the night phase as quickly as possible and avoid as much attention as possible.

We may have some false claims to work with, but the town player's cards will be laid bare in their efforts to prove their innocence, allowing the mafia to make more targeted and devastating kills of key town players.

Yes, but if we force mafia to claim first, they run the risk of getting counter-claimed + we lock them into their claim. You also have to consider the advantage for town of having some information going into the night phase. We could have doc protect the cop or vigilante test a bulletproof claim. If town goes in blind, we might end up with a roleblocked cop or vigilante shooting the doc or some other mishap. It is generally agreed, as a standard procedure on THIS site, that getting 1-2 claims before heading to the night phase is better than going in blind.

And what on earth makes you so sure that THEVIRUS is town?

I'm not 100% certain but the way he discussed claiming was very towny. He didn't mind claiming or having attention put on him, he was more interested in helping the town figure the game out with whatever information he could offer. This is not the kind of behavior that comes from mafia. Mafia typically do anything they can to avoid claiming first because claiming runs the risk of a counter claim.

The fact that you leap to that conclusion with no concrete evidence is, in itself, suspicious to me.

Behaviors are evidence, which may not be seems as concrete as investigative results, but once you start playing more complex games with flavors, you'll realize there is no such thing as "concrete" evidence.

There is also nothing scummy about taking positions. In fact, in my experience, the players who avoid taking any stances are the most likely to be scum. Mafia have trouble committing to positions because they already know who the town are and who the scum are. They have trouble fabricating reads that town would actually come to naturally. If you want to look at it from a motivation standpoint, Town offer their reads to get the game moving, get discussion going, and make things happen. Mafia don't like to commit to reads because that narrows their options.

Hmm, hadn't thought about this. What if my claim proves impossible to verify?

What's the scum motivation for calling someone town? There isn't one really. What's the town motivation? To catch scum through process of elimination.

Combine that with the fact that your approach seems to undermine the town's position more than it does the mafia's and one would be prompted to more intently scrutinize your motives, not mine.

How does my approach undermine the town's position? You're the one who wants to go directly to the night phase without analyzing any behaviors whatsoever or getting any roles out. What's the town motivation for that? I don't see any. The scum motivation is avoiding the risk of counter claiming and getting to D2 where the Town will be at MYLO.

Skep needs to claim.
"The Collectivist experiment is thoroughly suited (in appearance at least) to the Capitalist society which it proposes to replace. It works with the existing machinery of Capitalism, talks and thinks in the existing terms of Capitalism, appeals to just those appetites which Capitalism has aroused, and ridicules as fantastic and unheard-of just those things in society the memory of which Capitalism has killed among men wherever the blight of it has spread."
- Hilaire Belloc -
Skepsikyma
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3/4/2013 6:13:15 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 3/4/2013 6:09:56 PM, FourTrouble wrote:
At 3/4/2013 5:59:22 PM, Skepsikyma wrote:
But what if the experienced player was cast as mafia?

Roles and affiliations were assigned randomly. Are you even paying attention to the game?

Yes, I know that. But what if both you and TV were randomly cast as Mafia? If that were the situation, and I were in your shoes, I would be behaving exactly as you are now. Which was what troubled me initially; in that case the experienced player would be our worst enemy, not a trustworthy ally.

The scenario that I'm worrying is consists of FT and TV being cast as mafia players, taking control of the interrogative process, learning as many town rolls as possible, perhaps causing a mislynch, and then killing the most useful town player during the night period. The thing which mainly arises my suspicion is the fact that FT exempted TV from further examination on, as far as I can see, no rational basis whatsoever.

I didn't exempt TV from further examination. You are totally free to call him scum. I'm saying I think he's town. If you disagree, explain why you disagree with me. This is how you get discussion going. We can then examine your thought process and see if it comes from a town point of view or scum point of view.
"The Collectivist experiment is thoroughly suited (in appearance at least) to the Capitalist society which it proposes to replace. It works with the existing machinery of Capitalism, talks and thinks in the existing terms of Capitalism, appeals to just those appetites which Capitalism has aroused, and ridicules as fantastic and unheard-of just those things in society the memory of which Capitalism has killed among men wherever the blight of it has spread."
- Hilaire Belloc -
FourTrouble
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3/4/2013 6:14:32 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 3/4/2013 6:10:13 PM, Skepsikyma wrote:
What if my claim proves impossible to verify?

There are a lot of claims that are impossible to confirm. This is where behaviors come into play. If it comes down to process of elimination between two players without provable roles, then you analyze behaviors to determine which lynch is better.