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Mafia ScumHunting Theory + More

Buddamoose
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4/24/2013 2:45:28 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
Basically, I'm wanting to hear people's opinion, and ideas here:

1) What do you look for in scum behavior?

2) What is proper town behavior?

3) How do you judge player interactions?

A) What are "town-town" interactions to you?
B) What are "scum-scum" interactions?
C) What are "town-scum" interactions?

4) Do you view mis-lynches as inherently anti-town?

5) Are results to be taken at a higher priority than behavioral analysis?

6) How much do you factor character and role claims into whether or not a player should be lynched? Should they even factor in at all?

7) What is more important? Logical Analysis, Behavioral Analysis, Character/Role Analysis, or Results?

8) What do you think effective reaction tests are?

A) Why are they effective?
B) What reaction tests are ineffective?
C) What reaction tests are townish? Which are scummy?
"Reality is an illusion created due to a lack of alcohol"
-Airmax1227

"You were the moon all this time, and he was always there to make you shine."

"Was he the sun?"

"No honey, he was the darkness"

-Kazekirion
Buddamoose
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4/24/2013 3:05:54 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 4/24/2013 2:45:28 AM, Buddamoose wrote:
Basically, I'm wanting to hear people's opinion, and ideas here:

To answer this myself...

1) What do you look for in scum behavior?

I look for these things:

- Contradictions in thought process
- Actions that only make sense from a scum motivation
- Actions that make the most sense from a scum motivation
- Consistency in the though process that reads are based off of/methods being used to scumhunt.

2) What is proper town behavior?

- Aggressive
- Questioning
- Being open with one's thought process
- Minimalizing of WIFOM in FOS's and defense
- Objectivity and Reasonableness

3) How do you judge player interactions?

This is the one thing I'm unclear on. I would honestly like to hear from a few players, namely F-16, FT, Drafter, etc. as to how to properly judge interactions between players because its the weakest/most undeveloped of my scumhunting game.

A) What are "town-town" interactions to you?
B) What are "scum-scum" interactions?
C) What are "town-scum" interactions?

4) Do you view mis-lynches as inherently anti-town?

No, of course not. Town's greatest asset is lynching. Mislynches happen, and they are but a stepping stone in the process to town winning. Mislynches help judge not only player behaviors, but player interactions. They also serve to pro-town purpose of eliminating players who are acting scummy, and if those scummy players are town, reduce the level of distraction town has in determining actual scum.

5) Are results to be taken at a higher priority than behavioral analysis?

No, I vehemently think at this point that Behavioral Analysis should be prioritized higher than results. There are plenty of examples where results were wrong, and behavioral analysis was correct, and many less examples of players, albeit players whom were properly scumhunting, ignoring results and calling out mafia despite the conflicting results.

6) How much do you factor character and role claims into whether or not a player should be lynched? Should they even factor in at all?

I will admit that I factor in character and role claims too much presently. I think that they should barely factor in at all to a lynch. But its a terrifying thought that you could potentially lynch a powerful town role, and end up setting town back in a game. However, I'm starting to come around to the idea that behavioral analysis is the most trustworthy thing there is if you are properly scumhunting. Recent games are starting to show that this is indeed the case, and if more players are able to learn, town will start piling up victories in my humble opinion.

7) What is more important? Logical Analysis, Behavioral Analysis, Character/Role Analysis, or Results?

Behavioral analysis most definitely.

8) What do you think effective reaction tests are?

RVS voting is the only one I can think of.

A) Why are they effective?

RVS voting is effective because it not only gets a reaction test out of the player you are voting for, but causes people to take a stance on not only the vote, but the player you are voting for. Allowing for a better judge of interactions between players.
B) What reaction tests are ineffective?

Self-voting. Its stupid, why vote yourself if you are town? Just dont do it.

C) What reaction tests are townish?

RVS voting

Which are scummy?

Self-voting
"Reality is an illusion created due to a lack of alcohol"
-Airmax1227

"You were the moon all this time, and he was always there to make you shine."

"Was he the sun?"

"No honey, he was the darkness"

-Kazekirion
FourTrouble
Posts: 12,757
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4/24/2013 4:36:52 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 4/24/2013 2:45:28 AM, Buddamoose wrote:
Basically, I'm wanting to hear people's opinion, and ideas here:

1) What do you look for in scum behavior?

-Lack of emotion or interest
-Fake emotion or interest
-Knowing more than you should
-Inconsistency between commentary and reads
-Lack of thought process
-Going after easy targets
-Lots of fluff posts
-Lurking

2) What is proper town behavior?

-Engaging players in conversation
-Not lying unless you know what you're doing
-If someone brings up a valid point against you, admit it and if possible explain why you did it and why it's not scummy (those last two obviously aimed at Yraelz, lol)
-Don't settle for a lynch if you think the guy is town
-Don't be afraid to buddy with people you think are town

3) How do you judge player interactions?

A) What are "town-town" interactions to you?

-Misunderstandings that don't seem forced.

B) What are "scum-scum" interactions?

-Unrealistic suspicion of unremarkable player.

C) What are "town-scum" interactions?

-Unrealistic buddying of unremarkable player

4) Do you view mis-lynches as inherently anti-town?

-In about 99% of cases, yes.

5) Are results to be taken at a higher priority than behavioral analysis?

-Depends on context - confirmed sane cop is strong evidence but behavioral analysis + character/role claims should be taken into account - possibility of godfather/lawyer/framer should never be outright dismissed

6) How much do you factor character and role claims into whether or not a player should be lynched? Should they even factor in at all?

They should factor, depending on the character/role and context.

7) What is more important? Logical Analysis, Behavioral Analysis, Character/Role Analysis, or Results?

Behavioral Analysis is the most reliable and damaging to scum - characters/roles/results can all be faulty but behaviors aren't.

8) What do you think effective reaction tests are?

Reaction Tests are not effective 90% of the time. Against noobs maybe a DAYKILL gambit would help determine their alignment?

A) Why are they effective?

Against noobs, they have no clue you're testing them or lying to them.

B) What reaction tests are ineffective?

Anything where you intentionally act scummy, etc.

C) What reaction tests are townish? Which are scummy?

I already gave an example of a townish one -- anything where you intentionally act scummy is pro-scum.
FourTrouble
Posts: 12,757
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4/24/2013 4:46:00 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
I want to add, under proper town behavior, being active and making things happen. I don't think it's necessary to be aggressive but it is inexcusable to be passive as town.
johnnyboy54
Posts: 6,362
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4/24/2013 6:55:23 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 4/24/2013 4:36:52 AM, FourTrouble wrote:

-Don't be afraid to buddy with people you think are town

Even if their reasoning is flawed?
I didn't order assholes with my whiskey.
FourTrouble
Posts: 12,757
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4/24/2013 7:08:46 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 4/24/2013 6:55:23 AM, johnnyboy54 wrote:
At 4/24/2013 4:36:52 AM, FourTrouble wrote:

-Don't be afraid to buddy with people you think are town

Even if their reasoning is flawed?

No, if their reasoning is flawed you gotta explain to them why.
Noumena
Posts: 6,047
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4/24/2013 7:15:49 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
Shltty thing is most people all too often equivocate how they think a townie would act with how a townie should act. So we can discuss what is best for town all we want but it's kind of hard to actually apply that to anything given that most players (even as town) don't come close to the stipulations laid out.
: At 5/13/2014 7:05:20 PM, Crescendo wrote:
: The difference is that the gay movement is currently pushing their will on Churches, as shown in the link to gay marriage in Denmark. Meanwhile, the Inquisition ended several centuries ago.
Noumena
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4/24/2013 7:24:24 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 4/24/2013 2:45:28 AM, Buddamoose wrote:

7) What is more important? Logical Analysis, Behavioral Analysis, Character/Role Analysis, or Results?

You forgot overarching Game analysis i.e., taking into account the factors known to us about the mechanics and game setup and using that to judge claims made by others (for instance in their roles).
: At 5/13/2014 7:05:20 PM, Crescendo wrote:
: The difference is that the gay movement is currently pushing their will on Churches, as shown in the link to gay marriage in Denmark. Meanwhile, the Inquisition ended several centuries ago.
FourTrouble
Posts: 12,757
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4/24/2013 7:28:58 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 4/24/2013 7:24:24 AM, Noumena wrote:
At 4/24/2013 2:45:28 AM, Buddamoose wrote:

7) What is more important? Logical Analysis, Behavioral Analysis, Character/Role Analysis, or Results?

You forgot overarching Game analysis i.e., taking into account the factors known to us about the mechanics and game setup and using that to judge claims made by others (for instance in their roles).

I would lump that under Character/Role analysis. Mod Psychology can certainly be added to the list, though.
FourTrouble
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4/24/2013 7:37:52 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 4/24/2013 7:15:49 AM, Noumena wrote:
Shltty thing is most people all too often equivocate how they think a townie would act with how a townie should act. So we can discuss what is best for town all we want but it's kind of hard to actually apply that to anything given that most players (even as town) don't come close to the stipulations laid out.

I don't think anyone here is equivocating although that is definitely something to keep in mind. There is an important distinction between the act of hunting for scum and proper town behavior. The moment you label a specific behavior as a pro-town behavior, scum will copy it to appear more pro-town. That's why the things I listed are very general points that are pro-town but not alignment-indicative: things like being open, not lying unless there is a good reason to do so, admitting errors, not being afraid to push your opinions, etc.
THEVIRUS
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4/24/2013 12:24:28 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
I think this thread is a bad idea. Scum players can just model how a lot of people think town players should act. Plus if people go off this list and a town player hasn't seen it they may do something wrong.

Are there any ultimate ways to prove someone is town? (besides lynching or NA)
"So you want me to go to the judge with 'unit, corps, God, country'?" - A Few Good Men

"And the hits just keep on comin'." -A Few Good Men
Yraelz
Posts: 4,056
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4/24/2013 5:05:05 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 4/24/2013 4:36:52 AM, FourTrouble wrote:
-Not lying unless you know what you're doing
-If someone brings up a valid point against you, admit it and if possible explain why you did it and why it's not scummy (those last two obviously aimed at Yraelz, lol)

Heyyyyyy! That was my first game! Look how much better I got!? (I say as I'm murdering you in game.)
drafterman
Posts: 18,870
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4/24/2013 5:16:34 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 4/24/2013 5:03:54 PM, Yraelz wrote:
Drafter what are the last couple of words that Stark says?

Ned: Your pardon
Jaime: I hear we might be neighbors soon. I hope it's true.
Ned: Yes, the King has honored me with his offer.
Jaime: I'm sure we'll have a tournament to celebrate the new title. If you accept. It'd be good to have you on the field. The competition has become a bit stale.
Ned: I don't fight in tournaments.
Jaime: No? Getting a little old for it?
Ned: Heh. I don't fight in tournaments because when I fight a man for real I don't want him to know what I can do.
Jaime: Well said.
Skepsikyma
Posts: 8,280
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4/24/2013 5:24:15 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 4/24/2013 2:45:28 AM, Buddamoose wrote:
Basically, I'm wanting to hear people's opinion, and ideas here:

1) What do you look for in scum behavior?
Scum motivated action, or an absence of town motivated action, are highest on the list. Overall, I probably rely on motivation more than anything else. Lying and/or employing logical fallacies, especially while driving for a lynch, send up big red flags.

2) What is proper town behavior?
Good analysis is the most important. This doesn't need to even be plentiful, but good analysis usually brings up something which wasn't previously discussed, points out genuine errors in judgement, and demands an explanation for them. It is also proper for a town player to accept an excuse if it makes sense. Tunneling in on in a player after they have successfully rebutted criticisms, especially if there is a more obvious target, would be an example of a failure to do this and I would be very leery of it. Smart use of abilities is also important; I become suspicious of a player if they misuse their ability in a way which destroys its utility to town time and time again.

3) How do you judge player interactions?
I don't think that it's as useful as looking at overarching motivation as it relates to game structure and how behaviors and results line up with this. This is mostly because such interaction will be carefully monitored and tailored to a level that actions cannot meet, and which is difficult to achieve when it comes to analysis.

A) What are "town-town" interactions to you?
Suspicion and clear thinking on both sides.

B) What are "scum-scum" interactions?
They will almost always be heavily tailored to meet currently accepted definitions of town-town interactions, so unless a significant slip is made it's not readily detectable. At least not to me.

C) What are "town-scum" interactions?
A reasonable and well-structured argument by town, followed by a hysterical, emotional, and fallacious rebuttal by scum is a telltale sign.

4) Do you view mis-lynches as inherently anti-town?
Almost always, yes, unless you have an especially moronic vigilante on your hand.

5) Are results to be taken at a higher priority than behavioral analysis?
Yes, if they are unflavored (or their flavor is known) and prove conclusively through deduction the guilt or innocence of a player. Otherwise no.

6) How much do you factor character and role claims into whether or not a player should be lynched? Should they even factor in at all?
A shady claim which cannot be verified will make me more likely to lynch a character, but an unsubstantiated claim will never stop me from lynching one.

7) What is more important? Logical Analysis, Behavioral Analysis, Character/Role Analysis, or Results?
Logical analysis, because it ties the other three together and is resistant to the injection of emotion on which mafia often depends when guiding mislynches.

8) What do you think effective reaction tests are?
I haven't really had a chance to try any out.

A) Why are they effective?
B) What reaction tests are ineffective?
C) What reaction tests are townish? Which are scummy?
"The Collectivist experiment is thoroughly suited (in appearance at least) to the Capitalist society which it proposes to replace. It works with the existing machinery of Capitalism, talks and thinks in the existing terms of Capitalism, appeals to just those appetites which Capitalism has aroused, and ridicules as fantastic and unheard-of just those things in society the memory of which Capitalism has killed among men wherever the blight of it has spread."
- Hilaire Belloc -
Logic_on_rails
Posts: 2,445
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4/24/2013 5:56:58 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
I'll just answer question 7 as the other questions are best answered by others.

Many people have had a massive focus on behavioural analysis for one reason - it was lacking in some previous games and it's a crucial part of Mafia. But it's not the only focus. To get the best results you need to use all types of analysis, and this is where the moderator and the game in question matters. Logical analysis clearly is what is applied to all other types of analysis, so we'll skip that for now.

In a way I've a 'specialist' at character / role / OP analysis. How come? Because nobody else does it in games which could benefit from it. Eg. Town could have done to look at the OPs and characters. I like to also look at role compositions to try and determine the 'bigger picture' with regard to town and Mafia powers. It's often surprisingly accurate work. As for results, they're not absolute, but a slightly better tool than most people give credit for.

What about the moderator though? Every moderator is different. In my games you'd do best to read the stories, even if not all of them are useful. My first few games featured results heavily, yet tried to so heavily misdirect the town and question the validity of the results; suffice to say, my game are fairly unique. In my 3rd game the town used mod psychology to devastating effect. Behavioural analysis was not the winning factor, due to some unfortunate events. The next 2 games required behavioural analysis, yet the (limited) results could be trusted. Both were extremely close affairs. However, in A Not So Quaint Town the town missed a win because they didn't catch a critical Mafia slip-up that required a bit of knowledge of the stories; they mislynched in a ridiculous fashion when an obvious mislynch existed.

Analysis is a multifaceted beast. It should be treated as such, and one should provide the analysis that will best add to the town's reservoir of knowledge. That provision will depend upon the situation at hand.
"Tis not in mortals to command success
But we"ll do more, Sempronius, we"ll deserve it
F-16_Fighting_Falcon
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4/24/2013 6:31:59 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
I think some of my responses would overlap into multiple questions that were posted so I won't quote any specific questions although I'll be referencing them roughly in the order that Budda posted in the OP.

I talked once before on how mafia on DDO is a combination of a puzzle-solving game and a social game so I won't go too much into detail on that. But as a general summary, I can see 2 tools that I would used to catch scum: game design and player behavior. In other sites like mafiascum, claims are largely meaningless and player behavior is the only tool used. On DDO, we get the best results when we combine both modes of analysis (game design and player behavior). A third tool would be using cop/tracker/watcher results but there is no "catching" involved here. You just vote the person who got a guilty on them or were found at the scene of the crime.

Game design combines everything about the game: character and role claims, how OP the town would be if all the roles claimed were true, and how the mafia has roles that can counter existing roles. I consider this an extension of counterclaims. When a player claims doc and is cc'd, we lynch them. However, when a player claims doc, and a second player claims bodyguard, we seriously consider the possibility of one of them being likely scum but wouldn't outright lynch unless player behavior also corroborates this. On the other hand, if mafia have roles that can negate town roles, we would likely believe the claims. A recent example I can think of was Tulle's claim in Madness in Delderra. There were 3 docs and she received info about them which made it seem like she was the scum who got info about town docs and it fit in extremely well with a mafia role. I actually think some people undervalue the power of using the game's design to catch scum (although some actually overvalue it). Mods on DDO put tremendous effort into designing a balanced game and in a game modded by a competent mod, if something seems out of place, it is probably a lie. This is not to say mods don't create mislynch targets but rather that the game is balanced. If town seems overpowered for instance, you know one of the "power roles" are probably lying or are mafia versions of those power roles like mafia watcher (lookout). My perspective of game design encompasses all aspects of how the mod designed the game. This included character and role claims. See if they match. See if the justification jives with the justification of other roles or if it seems out of place. See how many main characters are in the game. If there are too many, scum were probably given fake-claims. Analyze the game like a puzzle and see which piece doesn't fit.

Secondly, coming to player behavior. I always look for what seems opportunistic and what fits a player's personality. Aggressiveness is a great towntell. If Budda/IFLY/Spinko are aggressively pushing lynches, it means they are probably town. On the other hand, FT has no qualms leading mislynches as scum so aggressiveness doesn't give him a free pass. For instance, if a bad player (like say, Lannan) or a generally reserved player (like Medic) suspects me and starts trying to lynch me, I wouldn't OMGUS them, but I would townread them instead because I know they wouldn't suspect me if they were mafia. For instance, in BlackVoid's celebrities game, my biggest townread was the guy who was trying to lynch me the hardest (IFLY). Yet, when someone like FT or Mestari FOSses you, the correct move is to OMGUS them just because they are capable of pushing lynches as scum - and very often do to the point where their aggressiveness could be scumtell (or at least null) as opposed to a towntell. In players of medium-skill level, aggressiveness is a surefire towntell. Not so for players skilled as mafia. Same with TV btw. He is usually very aggressive as scum. Depends on the player. That's my next point: meta. As for whether player behavior is more important than results, there is no surefire answer: it depends on the situation. Same with how much claims should factor in as opposed to behavior when deciding who to lynch.

Coming to meta: I like using meta extensively. While I may sometimes I do it half-heartedly out of laziness (you did X as town in that game and you are not doing it here ergo scum), that method is wrong. However, when I do a comprehensive meta where I evaluate multiple games (not just one) of both town and scum games and am able to point out recurring patterns that exist only as one affiliation, that is one of the best indicators of that player's affiliation. I try to cut down on meta research of single games because I get frustrated when someone asks me on DP1 why I haven't posted analysis based on 1 other game. But once I have extensive meta of multiple games pinpointing trends exclusive to affiliation, that is the powerful tools that can be used in a game. I don't look for "classic" scumtells but rather for behaviors that that player displays as scum. That is putting them in a custom polygraph fitted perfectly for them rather than a generic one.

There is no "proper" town behavior other than just being yourself and hunting for scum. In a game with experienced players, they will understand this behavior to be townish. In a game with noobs, you will have a lot of trouble where people are afraid of natural, aggressive behavior that for most people is actually a towntell. As town, I often try to build alliances with other players. If I feel someone is obviously town, I vocalize it. If someone makes a great case, I tell them they did great, and made good points and bandwagon with them. It is the greatest myth of mafia that bandwagoning by itself is a scumtell. I've never seen a worse bunk tell than calling all bandwagoning scummy. Each situation is different. Scum do bandwagon and can be caught that way but if town never bandwagons, scum would never get lynched. This goes into what FT is saying about not being afraid to buddy with townies although I disagree on the specifics of his ideas.

Scum don't usually tiptoe around other scum. If a flipped scum seemed afraid of another player, that player is likely not the same faction of the flipped scum. I reference Madness in Delderra again. Bull was genuinely afraid of FT on DP1 - this should have been a point that cleared him. Although FT-IFLY interactions in Supernatural Apocalypse were in such a way that I would never have considered them scum-scum interactions, so I need to re-evaluate my views. Again, best to look at it on a case-by-case meta basis and custom fit the behavior to each individual.

Mislynches are inherently anti-town, especially if a townie leads them since that townie would look suspicious. Always try to avoid leading a mislynch. Re-evaluate. Re-think. Only scum-lynches are pro-town. The faster you lynch scum, the more likely, you never even have to see MYLO/LYLO, let alone lose the game. I've rarely seen town win with lynches in hand but it would be epic.

The best games and best players often use comprehensive analysis of behavioral, character/role, and logical. No one is more important than the other. I've tried using reaction tests a few times but I've never really gotten results that were very accurate. The best results are when you evaluate a player's natural behavior for a while before drawing conclusions. If I am town, I am usually more dangerous to mafia later on in the game than on say, DP1 although I do favor DP1 lynches where appropriate. Lastly, I want to add - don't be afraid to allow others to take the lead when they have a convincing case. This comment is mostly towards the "alpha-male" type players like FT, bluesteel etc. Sometimes other players make great points. I lead the town when I can naturally do so. If others make good points, I just blatantly sheep (for instance when FT made a case against TA in Steampunk or Johnny against Budda in that beginner game).
Buddamoose
Posts: 19,448
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4/24/2013 6:32:25 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 4/24/2013 5:05:05 PM, Yraelz wrote:
At 4/24/2013 4:36:52 AM, FourTrouble wrote:
-Not lying unless you know what you're doing
-If someone brings up a valid point against you, admit it and if possible explain why you did it and why it's not scummy (those last two obviously aimed at Yraelz, lol)

Heyyyyyy! That was my first game! Look how much better I got!? (I say as I'm murdering you in game.)

Save the boasting for endgame and a read accuracy rate. If you are above 50% read accuracy, I'd say you are doing good, 75% excellent. Below 50% you did sub-par.
"Reality is an illusion created due to a lack of alcohol"
-Airmax1227

"You were the moon all this time, and he was always there to make you shine."

"Was he the sun?"

"No honey, he was the darkness"

-Kazekirion
cybertron1998
Posts: 5,818
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4/24/2013 6:34:13 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
one thing I want to throw out. I will become sneaky, cryptic, and creepy in such games
Epsilon: There are so many stories where some brave hero decides to give their life to save the day, and because of their sacrifice, the good guys win, the survivors all cheer, and everybody lives happily ever after. But the hero... never gets to see that ending. They'll never know if their sacrifice actually made a difference. They'll never know if the day was really saved. In the end, they just have to have faith.
lannan13
Posts: 23,051
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4/24/2013 6:36:35 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 4/24/2013 2:45:28 AM, Buddamoose wrote:
Basically, I'm wanting to hear people's opinion, and ideas here:

1) What do you look for in scum behavior?

-Contradictions
-Flips

2) What is proper town behavior?

-aggessive
-doesn't act like lannan13 normally would

3) How do you judge player interactions?

A) What are "town-town" interactions to you?
B) What are "scum-scum" interactions?
C) What are "town-scum" interactions?

4) Do you view mis-lynches as inherently anti-town?

Yes

5) Are results to be taken at a higher priority than behavioral analysis?

Depends on the senerio, sometimes the results can prove someone, on the other hand a lynch based on machanics can be good if the person is a hazzard to the town.

6) How much do you factor character and role claims into whether or not a player should be lynched? Should they even factor in at all?

I factor them by power roles, like docs and cops really shouldn't be lynched.

7) What is more important? Logical Analysis, Behavioral Analysis, Character/Role Analysis, or Results?

Charicter/ Role Analysis

8) What do you think effective reaction tests are?

A) Why are they effective?
B) What reaction tests are ineffective?
C) What reaction tests are townish? Which are scummy?

I personly don't like reaction tests, but they could be useful in someways, but most of the time I view them as a fail.
-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-Lannan13'S SIGNATURE-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-

If the sky's the limit then why do we have footprints on the Moon? I'm shooting my aspirations for the stars.

"If you are going through hell, keep going." "Sir Winston Churchill

"No one can make you feel inferior without your consent." "Eleanor Roosevelt

Topics I want to debate. (http://tinyurl.com...)
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F-16_Fighting_Falcon
Posts: 18,324
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4/24/2013 6:47:35 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
Wow! I had a lot to say. Most of it is stuff that is repeated each game so it is not new information. I saw some of the other comments in the thread. I would have pointed out that Logic was one of the people who highly values analysis based on game design. Usually, after games, he always says which part of game design the players missed.

That reminds me, there was a glaring error from Bull in Naval Warfare which I couldn't believe some players missed. I forgot to mention at endgame.

Coming to FT's post, I hate using "mod-psych" as a tool although "game-design" works very well. It involves solving a puzzle as opposed to wondering how the mod may have set that puzzle.

On another note, guessing who the mod would pick to be mafia sucks as well although sometimes (with Logic for instance), it works well. I highly recommend mods randomize roles to avoid this. And I mean TRUE randomization. Don't "tweak," "edit," or "re-randomize" if you don't like the setup. Just suck it up and use it. Best case, have somebody else randomize for you to hold you to it.

As for buddying with people, FT, I think you should be careful with whom you buddy. Don't buddy someone who is lying and fake-claiming (Maxx in Madness in Delderra for instance - now I've made 3 references to this game, lol). Also, DON'T lie and fake-claim (this is to Maxx). You nearly got lynched both times you did so with your popular townies status saving you one of those times.

I wouldn't say
Lack of emotion
is a scumtell. I try to best to control my emotions as town and not let one that I am frustrated even if I am. That makes it more difficult for mafia to discredit you. Town also won't be afraid of your emotions (if they are noobs for instance). So, someone maybe town but maybe putting aside their excitement, frustration, revelations, any emotion, you name it. The best way is to take a break and re-think and actually discard those emotions completely.
Lucky_Luciano
Posts: 4,350
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4/24/2013 7:01:50 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 4/24/2013 2:45:28 AM, Buddamoose wrote:
Basically, I'm wanting to hear people's opinion, and ideas here:

1) What do you look for in scum behavior?

How I act as town.

2) What is proper town behavior?

How I act as scum.

That is all.
"Age is not important" - Airmax 2014
"Australia... is that a place?" - Airmax 2014
Buddamoose
Posts: 19,448
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4/24/2013 7:12:27 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 4/24/2013 7:01:50 PM, Lucky_Luciano wrote:
At 4/24/2013 2:45:28 AM, Buddamoose wrote:
Basically, I'm wanting to hear people's opinion, and ideas here:

1) What do you look for in scum behavior?

How I act as town.

2) What is proper town behavior?

How I act as scum.

That is all.

LOL
"Reality is an illusion created due to a lack of alcohol"
-Airmax1227

"You were the moon all this time, and he was always there to make you shine."

"Was he the sun?"

"No honey, he was the darkness"

-Kazekirion
FourTrouble
Posts: 12,757
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4/24/2013 7:24:04 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
I wouldn't say
Lack of emotion
is a scumtell. I try to best to control my emotions as town and not let one that I am frustrated even if I am. That makes it more difficult for mafia to discredit you. Town also won't be afraid of your emotions (if they are noobs for instance). So, someone maybe town but maybe putting aside their excitement, frustration, revelations, any emotion, you name it. The best way is to take a break and re-think and actually discard those emotions completely.

I think it's pretty hard to not experience excitement at the prospect of lynching scum, and town do it even if they're trying to control their emotions. Scum simply don't show the same level of emotion towards anything in the game, in general, and genuine emotion is one of the hardest things for scum to fake. You have to keep in mind, any and every tell can be faked by a good player, so these points are general points. There are no absolutes, context and particularities matter more than anything.
FourTrouble
Posts: 12,757
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4/24/2013 7:26:49 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
As for buddying with people, FT, I think you should be careful with whom you buddy. Don't buddy someone who is lying and fake-claiming (Maxx in Madness in Delderra for instance - now I've made 3 references to this game, lol). Also, DON'T lie and fake-claim (this is to Maxx). You nearly got lynched both times you did so with your popular townies status saving you one of those times.

If you think someone is town, there is no reason not to do your best to form a voting bloc with that person, regardless of whether they lied or fake-claimed. I admit, lying and fake-claiming is not a good idea but that doesn't mean you should lynch everyone who lies and fake-claims. I can tell you, as scum, there is nothing scarier than townies joining together with 100% certainty each other are scum; I see buddying as one of the most effective strategies as both alignments.
TUF
Posts: 21,309
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4/24/2013 7:30:02 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
As you can see FT, lying, and gambits are detrimental to the town. I certainly don't see where a gambit would have helped in your situation...
"I've got to go and grab a shirt" ~ Airmax1227
FourTrouble
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4/24/2013 7:41:58 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 4/24/2013 7:30:02 PM, TUF wrote:
As you can see FT, lying, and gambits are detrimental to the town. I certainly don't see where a gambit would have helped in your situation...

It was pretty fvcking obvious it was a reaction test... I had no situation, no pressure from anyone, and decided to test TDK. Why the fvck would I do that as scum?

I'm guessing your thought process went like this: FT tried to DAYKILL someone, his kill didn't go through, therefore he must be scum. Which makes no sense. The fact I tried to DAYKILL someone, regardless of whether it was a gambit or the truth, is not alignment indicative. It doesn't tell you anything about my motivations, thought process, etc.
F-16_Fighting_Falcon
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4/24/2013 7:44:26 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 4/24/2013 7:26:49 PM, FourTrouble wrote:

If you think someone is town, there is no reason not to do your best to form a voting bloc with that person, regardless of whether they lied or fake-claimed. I admit, lying and fake-claiming is not a good idea but that doesn't mean you should lynch everyone who lies and fake-claims. I can tell you, as scum, there is nothing scarier than townies joining together with 100% certainty each other are scum; I see buddying as one of the most effective strategies as both alignments.

I agree that it is scary but if you get the call wrong, you are 100% certain that a scum is town (or at least you give off that vibe). In that case, you would actually be impeding the progress of townies who want to lynch that player.
TUF
Posts: 21,309
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4/24/2013 7:47:04 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 4/24/2013 7:41:58 PM, FourTrouble wrote:
At 4/24/2013 7:30:02 PM, TUF wrote:
As you can see FT, lying, and gambits are detrimental to the town. I certainly don't see where a gambit would have helped in your situation...

It was pretty fvcking obvious it was a reaction test... I had no situation, no pressure from anyone, and decided to test TDK. Why the fvck would I do that as scum?

Oh I wish drafterman was here to go on a "lynch all liars" speech. I lied for what I thought was the good of the town too, in board game mafia. Well, I got lynched, and the town got fvcked because of it. I don't think it was very obvious that it was a lie though TBH.

I'm guessing your thought process went like this: FT tried to DAYKILL someone, his kill didn't go through, therefore he must be scum. Which makes no sense. The fact I tried to DAYKILL someone, regardless of whether it was a gambit or the truth, is not alignment indicative. It doesn't tell you anything about my motivations, thought process, etc.

I guessed you thought you were experienced enough where you could make the claim believable, or something. Either way It was pretty clear to me that you were scum. I recommend not doing those gambits as town anymore...
"I've got to go and grab a shirt" ~ Airmax1227