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Mafia Theory Debates

Buddamoose
Posts: 19,450
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5/18/2013 1:05:58 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
Was wondering if perhaps anyone would want to start a series of debates(voted or unvoted doesnt matter) that encapsulate certain concepts that seem to be theory issues that come up in games from time to time. Topics might include, but certainly shouldnt be considered to be limited to:

1) Noob vs Inactive Rule
2) Hydra Accounts, do they have a net positive, or net negative effect?
3) Policy lynches, do they have a net positive, or net negative effect?
4) Vigs, to shoot or not to shoot night 1?

Etc.
"Reality is an illusion created due to a lack of alcohol"
-Airmax1227

"You were the moon all this time, and he was always there to make you shine."

"Was he the sun?"

"No honey, he was the darkness"

-Kazekirion
F-16_Fighting_Falcon
Posts: 18,324
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5/18/2013 1:08:12 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
Nice idea. I did two mafia related debates so far. I'd be down for doing any of the topics (can't decide, they are all amazing) maybe a week or two later.
Buddamoose
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5/18/2013 1:10:48 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
I think the fourth one is the one I'm most interested in. Its something thats irked me in games where vigs shoot N1 and its recieved with a negative reaction. The way I look at it is, if its considered a good thing to lynch day 1, then why is shooting N1 viewed so negatively?
"Reality is an illusion created due to a lack of alcohol"
-Airmax1227

"You were the moon all this time, and he was always there to make you shine."

"Was he the sun?"

"No honey, he was the darkness"

-Kazekirion
Noumena
Posts: 6,047
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5/18/2013 1:13:25 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
I might be partial to debating against Np1 vig shooting.
: At 5/13/2014 7:05:20 PM, Crescendo wrote:
: The difference is that the gay movement is currently pushing their will on Churches, as shown in the link to gay marriage in Denmark. Meanwhile, the Inquisition ended several centuries ago.
F-16_Fighting_Falcon
Posts: 18,324
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5/18/2013 1:17:38 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 5/18/2013 1:10:48 AM, Buddamoose wrote:
I think the fourth one is the one I'm most interested in. Its something thats irked me in games where vigs shoot N1 and its recieved with a negative reaction. The way I look at it is, if its considered a good thing to lynch day 1, then why is shooting N1 viewed so negatively?

Many people are responsible for a lynch. The ones who vote obviously don't want to blame themselves but with a vig, one person is responsible, so people can place the responsibility on them. That could be why mis-vig is seen to be worse than a DP1 mislynch. People who disagree with the vig target will vehemently oppose it.

This is not to say that I don't support DP1 lynches, I do.

Another point is that on mafiascum, lynch success rate is amazing. They hit scum most of the time. On DDO, lynch rate sucks. Town always loses. I was JUST about to make a thread about it and I'm still writing it. Mafiawiki says that NP1 vig is worse because it places the power in the hands of one person. Lynch is a collective decision so it is more likely to hit scum.

This isn't true on DDO, so... that is not really applicable.
Buddamoose
Posts: 19,450
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5/18/2013 1:29:45 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 5/18/2013 1:17:38 AM, F-16_Fighting_Falcon wrote:
At 5/18/2013 1:10:48 AM, Buddamoose wrote:
I think the fourth one is the one I'm most interested in. Its something thats irked me in games where vigs shoot N1 and its recieved with a negative reaction. The way I look at it is, if its considered a good thing to lynch day 1, then why is shooting N1 viewed so negatively?

Many people are responsible for a lynch. The ones who vote obviously don't want to blame themselves but with a vig, one person is responsible, so people can place the responsibility on them. That could be why mis-vig is seen to be worse than a DP1 mislynch. People who disagree with the vig target will vehemently oppose it.

This is not to say that I don't support DP1 lynches, I do.

Another point is that on mafiascum, lynch success rate is amazing. They hit scum most of the time. On DDO, lynch rate sucks. Town always loses. I was JUST about to make a thread about it and I'm still writing it. Mafiawiki says that NP1 vig is worse because it places the power in the hands of one person. Lynch is a collective decision so it is more likely to hit scum.

This isn't true on DDO, so... that is not really applicable.

I've noticed though that early game read accuracy seems to be rising as of late. There's been a slew of games recently where mafia is pegged or narrowed down almost entirely within the first phase or two. Most notable recently Ishall's game, Left 4 Dead Mafia, Vampire + Rosario.

Essentially, I can understand why people would dislike a vig shot being in the hands of just one person, but I think it honestly depends on the person whom the shot is in the hands of. For example if FT, yourself, or another proven accurate scumhunter were a vig, I would prefer a N1 shot. If a less accurate scumhunter were to be a vig, I would prefer them to either not shoot, or sheep the most townish accurate scumhunter. Saavy?

D1 lynches are in part so beneficial because it keeps the game in hands of town, it allows town to narrow down existing players, and begin narrowing down PoE. By extension a vig shot also does this.
"Reality is an illusion created due to a lack of alcohol"
-Airmax1227

"You were the moon all this time, and he was always there to make you shine."

"Was he the sun?"

"No honey, he was the darkness"

-Kazekirion
TUF
Posts: 21,309
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5/18/2013 1:37:53 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
I want to do one of these. I want to see how hectic my life gets first with school before I commit, but I am interested. I'll get back to you Monday.
"I've got to go and grab a shirt" ~ Airmax1227
Buddamoose
Posts: 19,450
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5/18/2013 1:51:05 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 5/18/2013 1:13:05 AM, Smithereens wrote:
You and F-16 have nearly exactly the same amount of posts. I smell a multi.

Yup, you caught us... Uhhh me, definite multi
"Reality is an illusion created due to a lack of alcohol"
-Airmax1227

"You were the moon all this time, and he was always there to make you shine."

"Was he the sun?"

"No honey, he was the darkness"

-Kazekirion
TUF
Posts: 21,309
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5/18/2013 3:54:58 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
Budda I would be willing to debate the first one with you on the condition that I would be arguing that inactive rule is more effective. Also I would prefer if the debate was only 2 or 3 rounds. Would that interest you? If so challenge me at anytime.
"I've got to go and grab a shirt" ~ Airmax1227
Buddamoose
Posts: 19,450
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5/18/2013 4:42:45 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 5/18/2013 3:54:58 AM, TUF wrote:
Budda I would be willing to debate the first one with you on the condition that I would be arguing that inactive rule is more effective. Also I would prefer if the debate was only 2 or 3 rounds. Would that interest you? If so challenge me at anytime.

I wouldn't mind, i may support the inactive rule moreso then the noob rule, but I'm willing to play devil's advocate I suppose

How about Round 1 is acceptance, then round 2 is arguments, round 3 rebuttals(only rebuttals of round 2 arguments, i.e. only addressing opponents arguments.)
"Reality is an illusion created due to a lack of alcohol"
-Airmax1227

"You were the moon all this time, and he was always there to make you shine."

"Was he the sun?"

"No honey, he was the darkness"

-Kazekirion
TUF
Posts: 21,309
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5/18/2013 5:31:48 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 5/18/2013 4:42:45 AM, Buddamoose wrote:
At 5/18/2013 3:54:58 AM, TUF wrote:
Budda I would be willing to debate the first one with you on the condition that I would be arguing that inactive rule is more effective. Also I would prefer if the debate was only 2 or 3 rounds. Would that interest you? If so challenge me at anytime.

I wouldn't mind, i may support the inactive rule moreso then the noob rule, but I'm willing to play devil's advocate I suppose

How about Round 1 is acceptance, then round 2 is arguments, round 3 rebuttals(only rebuttals of round 2 arguments, i.e. only addressing opponents arguments.

alright, I will instigate the debate then since I already wrote arguments for an opening round lol. Sorry I was bored on point and writing in word 2007 is all were allowed to do besides staring at security cameras all day, so I decided to write some args up. I can possibly post The challenge in the afternoon, or Monday at the latest.
"I've got to go and grab a shirt" ~ Airmax1227
Buddamoose
Posts: 19,450
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5/21/2013 10:51:42 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 5/18/2013 1:13:25 AM, Noumena wrote:
I might be partial to debating against Np1 vig shooting.

I would certainly argue pro to shooting N1
"Reality is an illusion created due to a lack of alcohol"
-Airmax1227

"You were the moon all this time, and he was always there to make you shine."

"Was he the sun?"

"No honey, he was the darkness"

-Kazekirion
Buddamoose
Posts: 19,450
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5/21/2013 10:53:22 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 5/18/2013 7:57:42 AM, FourTrouble wrote:
I'm down to debate mafia theory.

What would you like to debate?
"Reality is an illusion created due to a lack of alcohol"
-Airmax1227

"You were the moon all this time, and he was always there to make you shine."

"Was he the sun?"

"No honey, he was the darkness"

-Kazekirion
drafterman
Posts: 18,870
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5/21/2013 10:53:56 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 5/21/2013 10:51:42 AM, Buddamoose wrote:
At 5/18/2013 1:13:25 AM, Noumena wrote:
I might be partial to debating against Np1 vig shooting.

I would certainly argue pro to shooting N1

I think a case can be made, especially regarding the affect of parity on mafia games.
F-16_Fighting_Falcon
Posts: 18,324
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5/23/2013 10:10:58 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
FT, I'll debate you on whether players playing as hydras should post their real screennames after each post if there is general consensus among the other players that they should and they are being requested to.
Maikuru
Posts: 9,112
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5/23/2013 10:15:21 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 5/18/2013 1:05:58 AM, Buddamoose wrote:
2) Hydra Accounts, do they have a net positive, or net negative effect?

Does anyone see hydras as having a net negative effect? I might be interested in that one.
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FourTrouble
Posts: 12,771
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5/23/2013 10:18:09 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 5/23/2013 10:10:58 PM, F-16_Fighting_Falcon wrote:
FT, I'll debate you on whether players playing as hydras should post their real screennames after each post if there is general consensus among the other players that they should and they are being requested to.

We're speaking here from a town perspective, right? I'd say it's good for a mafia hydra to do so but not for a townie.
Lucky_Luciano
Posts: 4,350
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5/23/2013 10:20:47 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 5/23/2013 10:15:21 PM, Maikuru wrote:
At 5/18/2013 1:05:58 AM, Buddamoose wrote:
2) Hydra Accounts, do they have a net positive, or net negative effect?

Does anyone see hydras as having a net negative effect? I might be interested in that one.

I might take this debate. I might also defend psychological arguments of all types; mod psych, behavioral psych, cognitive psych, etc.
"Age is not important" - Airmax 2014
"Australia... is that a place?" - Airmax 2014
F-16_Fighting_Falcon
Posts: 18,324
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5/23/2013 11:16:54 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 5/23/2013 10:18:09 PM, FourTrouble wrote:
At 5/23/2013 10:10:58 PM, F-16_Fighting_Falcon wrote:
FT, I'll debate you on whether players playing as hydras should post their real screennames after each post if there is general consensus among the other players that they should and they are being requested to.

We're speaking here from a town perspective, right? I'd say it's good for a mafia hydra to do so but not for a townie.

Yes. From a town perspective.
TUF
Posts: 21,309
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5/24/2013 2:48:06 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 5/23/2013 10:15:21 PM, Maikuru wrote:
At 5/18/2013 1:05:58 AM, Buddamoose wrote:
2) Hydra Accounts, do they have a net positive, or net negative effect?

Does anyone see hydras as having a net negative effect? I might be interested in that one.

I do. My willingness to debate it is another subject though, as I think I am the minority in my opinion.
"I've got to go and grab a shirt" ~ Airmax1227