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The Castle in the Sky Endgame

Logic_on_rails
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5/18/2013 2:47:15 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
In an anti-climatic finale the Mafia come home to win. Oh wait, Magus won, didn't he? No, no... they both won!

1st place - Magus (Lucky) / The Mafia (Skepsikyma, Sisyphean
2nd place - Town

With the roles below I'm only posting the full stories of those who haven't died for space reasons; roles of the dead are provided though. Not posting Gared's story except upon request - it's my best quality writing for this game (it was the old OP!) , but it's 16,000 characters, so...

Mafia (2)

Skepsikyma - The Editor - You receive all role PMs written by the author. You will receive all night actions by all characters from all tales every night. You win with the Mafia.

Note: The '[redacted]' parts of the DP 2 OP discussed Aremair, so revealing that would have revealed that only 2 Mafiosos existed, hence the redaction.

Sisphean - Aremair " The writers of yore from the halcyon days proclaimed "serve one another" . Honour was gained through self-sacrifice. And yet, why should the tyranny of servitude be imposed on the masses by nobles and mages in their castles? What do they know of the world? Little enough, privileged as they are.

People ought to live for themselves first. You must first be capable and able to live well before helping others is viable, lest everybody be helping others yet starving in the process. You take what you want first... and you have dreams of such grandeur, desires that can hardly be satiated. To you, there is an unearthly joy in taking things to which others don"t consent to... land, women and wine to name a few. So how to take this? By force of course. The kings of yesteryear won the day with sword and shield, and then with magical force. The commons exerted force in the long war because they were a military threat, and failed because their host was broken. Words mean nothing. They are but the veneer which clouds the ominous oppression of magicians.

You are a magical prodigy though, strengthened further by the power of the portal. And, you have a most rare gift in learning. You learn that which those you vanquished knew, with regards to magical talents. A very quick way to become stronger. After the deaths of many mages on the ground, you decided to flex your powers against a group of mages ranging against a rogue called Rhyold. You watched them, and killed them all, suffering but 2 cuts... except for one who escaped. They were all skilled mages. Recently [the OP] you attacked the camp of resistance leader Magus. You wished to learn his powers of persuasion, surely magically based. You soothed the camp and finally came face to face with him. In a terrible battle you defeated him, flinging him off the edge of a cliff. You didn"t gain as many abilities as you"d wished though... and you nearly died getting them. The horrible feeling of actually being in danger of death... you never want to feel that again. Regardless, you have set your eyes on the fount of magical power, wealth and desire " The Castle in the Sky.

You begin with inquisitor and soothsayer powers. You gain the powers of those who you kill. While the portal is open you may use 2 powers a night. You win with the Mafia.


Sidenote: Inquisitor powers will fail to work on Fahren (see his role) , Magus (you tried to kill him and he has your persuasion... you learnt it of a sorts) and Kierhein (for story reasons) . Should this all be a problem? Methinks not - look at Fahren and Magus' roles below. Kierhein? Well, you begin with resources aplenty to compensate. Also, you will not gain the King's powers upon killing him - they are politically, not magically based.

Note: Was the fellow who attacked Magus in the OP. Gained persuasive powers after 'sort of' killing him.

Town (13; classified Magus as town in the design process)

Budda - Guardsman Yerlein " The long war came and went. The uprising of the commons was squashed, and King Maegor named you Warden of the Ground. You stop uprisings with your cadre of magicians and a thousand swords. You use force to suppress violence and protect the commons from their own delusions.

Protect and roleblock a person each night if you so choose, so long as the portal is open. You win with the town.

Bull - Steven Rogers " Steel and blood. That is what most of the wretched world must rely on; it is what you rely on. You enforce the rule of law through the sword of justice.

Protect and roleblock a person each night if you so choose. You win with the town.

TV/ TUF - Gared " [long intro story]

Vanilla for NP 1 and 2, prior to making your way to the Castle in the Sky. Bodyguard for the rest of the game. You win with the town.

Note: Needs portal open to use powers

Flippant - Paladin Taryschenn " A man of magic, and of steel " a rare man. You play the part of a paladin. Your armour is somewhat impervious to magical attack as well. You serve the higher powers. You give your life to justice and to helping others. A just man, of the highest gallantry, demeanour, honour and kindness. Go save the realm, my paladin.

You may shield yourself with wards and magic armour at night, or shield another, or redirect actions from one to another. You may only shield another twice though. You win with the town.

yin.yang - Sworn sword Lionel" You wonder helplessly across the broken ground, stumbling your way to an unknown destination. How did it go wrong? For but a moment you had a purpose...You served Magus not for money, but for honour. He inspired you; you would have given your life for him. Now though... now you must find a new cause. Pledge your sword to a person during the night if you so choose. You shall stand in the way of their death, taking blow yourself; a permanent night time bodyguard. You may not vote to lynch the person you pledge your sword to. The other person may also direct your vote as they please; a PM will open up declaring your servitude. Should you somehow be alive following your master"s death, you shall be allowed to pledge your sword anew. You win with the town.

Note: Pledging his sword to Magus makes him protect Magus from a lynch as well.

OneElephant - Brian Newman - [lengthy intro story; some of my better writing a la J.D. Salinger , but irrelevant so I'll only post upon request]

If you hear anything from the police about the above event, you'll be informed. You win with the town.


Modnote: From a different story to The Castle in the Sky... no police in this game.

Bossy - The Apprentice - Learn a power (or part of 1) each night. Once a power is acquired it can be used the following NPs. Every DP following a night of learning you can"t vote. You win with the town.

Drafterman / Ishall - King Maegor - 1 shot ability to change a lynch to a no lynch, so long as you aren"t supporting the lynch itself (voting in favour of) . While you are alive the portal will be constantly open. You win with the town.

Drafterman - Kierhein - You have a 1 shot revive + murder suicide power. Ie. You revive a deceased person, and kill another person while dying yourself. You must use ALL powers at once. You win with the town.

Modnote: Miller to Fahren alone [seriously, this was fairly obvious in Fahren's backstory...]

TUF - Fahren - Strident and confident, you act alone in your pursuit of justice " you are the cop / reflexive roleblocker. You win with the town.

Sui - The Reader - Once in the game you may examine a person from The Castle in the Sky. You will learn their true name, and their full back-story. You win with the town.

Continued...</e
"Tis not in mortals to command success
But we"ll do more, Sempronius, we"ll deserve it
Logic_on_rails
Posts: 2,445
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5/18/2013 2:48:16 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
TA - The Psychic - Recently the higher powers told you about a puzzle. Complex it was, but it was easily solved once a piece was placed. What was the puzzle referring to though?

On NP 2 and 4 you shall find out truths of the world, and learn more of the prophecy. You win with the town.


And finally, Magus' role!

Lucky - Magus " Magus, The Prophet, The Masked Mage, you have gone by many names across many times. In the long war you were one of the few mages to side with the commons, and their just cause. But they lost, and the "great healing" occurred at the tourney of Lake Meiron. You dared to win, and win justice through your power. You fought all the way to the semi-finals as The Masked Mage and came face to face with a magician called Kierhein. It was a battle for the legends, but your shadow was vanquished. You respected him and exchanged words, and your name; perhaps Kierhein could have followed in your stead. But the King was just that of old " he demanded complete loyalty, and was to separate the worlds of magicians and the commons. A tyrant reborn. The hollow man, for that is all he is, did not grasp what the commons fought for. Force staunched the wound brought, yet force never lasts.

You stayed on the ground, discarding your mask and bringing justice and fairness where you could. People joined your inspired group slowly but surely. A good cause. But the King... he saw fit to attack your organisation, a threat he thought to his power! What madness, when all the magicians of the world serve him. Your followers were killed off by the King"s men. And then, you were attacked in the events of the OP. You were flung off a cliff, thought dead, but you crashed into a deep ravine and slowly made your way back to civilisation, a broken man, and a man who the world thinks dead. You don a new mask, make your way to The Castle in the Sky and are revered as The Prophet, a figure of myth, following some accurate predictions of yours. Your charm also helps.

But what do you do now? You dare to close the portal. It"s power feeds the gluttony of the inhabitants of the Castle in the Sky, and they use it"s eerie energy to oppress the commons brutally. You will close the portal or die trying.

Survivor until the portal is closed. Recruit a person to your cause each night. If lynched all followers will die. Guilty upon investigation. Once the portal is closed your followers will disperse and you may choose to be a survivor or win with the town.

Note: Recruiting Lionel would have changed his pledged vote to Magus + given a 1 shot lynch protection.

Modding

Modding has historically been a somewhat weaker point in my games. I sometimes have to intervene somewhat due to confusion, vague roles (I presume too much) and various other factors. But about halfway through this game I was somewhat chuffed with myself. No major mistakes or issues besides somewhat irritating the Mafia.

Of course, then there was the screenshots issue. I don"t want to discuss this that much; I"ve already discussed this matter ad nauseam in a variety of private PMs. I could go pull out multiple thousand characters defences if I wished. Suffice to say nobody should ever use screenshots. The short of it " I came in late after an afterschool mock trial meeting and never quite "caught up" with my routine, plus my Internet wasn"t working. I log on to DDO and find about 7 messages to do with this game. I"m tired and answer the critical ones first. I then get to this strange request about screenshots. I was very confused as to the purpose of screenshots. This situation of hydra screenshots had never occurred on DDO because we"ve never had hydras before. Being very tired and unclear as to the question"s intent I told them that a screenshot would be fine, "provided it doesn"t break rules". Suffice to say rules were broken.

The punishment was a tougher question. Modkill might have been better than changing Flippant"s night action. Flippant wanted no punishment issued. Of course, half the town was baying for a modkill (one for 2 modkills), players declared their intent to leave the game in private PMs and the Mafia effectively insinuated that they"d suicide if no corrective action was taken. So, no punishment and the game falls apart by common anger...

I hate intervening in games, make no mistake. I wish that I"d been harsh and thought clearly when I"d answered Flippant " that answer was not solid enough. That said, I believe I moderated fairly once the problem came up. Players should not be trying to unfairly confirm themselves in a manner not found in face to face games.

Game Balance / Genesis

On genesis of the story, this game evolved out of a story I"ve thought up. Of course, the actual story doesn"t have 2 worlds, Magus or a bunch of other characters (in the main plot idea; Magus is in one of my potential lines of thought... hence this game; I have other, more serious fiction to write as a priority though) . Nevertheless, the long stories were because of the work I"d already put into the world. I was going to give you all longer stories till I realised you"d drown in knowledge... as happened in DP 1 and 2.

Like many of my most interesting ideas, I find that dreaming up 3rd parties and agonising over how to work them into a game and then making them Mafia is the best way to have things work. I did this with The Editor, and found a really nice set-up to re-introduce the inquisitor role (with more power than before!). That said, Fahren, Kierhein and Magus" roles were all creative thoughts of a different process. I"m pretty impressed by the creativity of my roles this game.

As to balance? I think this game was fairly balanced. The Mafia were certainly a fearsome threat if they got going, but an investigation by Fahren or redirection (though I didn"t realise this pre-game!) could cripple them. If Aremair died early the Mafia had no hope. This game is actually more complex than most people realise, as Mafia PM discussions hinted at. This game was very inventive in how the Mafia could play. That said, this game was too swingy, which I'm irritated at.

One thing that went wrong in this game was that I wasn"t prepared for a whole host of messy questions and absurdities, particularly those that related to the story. That"s what I get for putting a half-finished game on show. I"m very irritated at the disconnect of story and game and my failure to get things working. Half-finished as I said. That said, I don"t plan to make a game half so much work again.

The game itself

Well, this game was alright. Not the best, yet not quite so bad as Blaise for balance.

DP 1 was a maelstrom of posting. Frantic attempts to puzzle out the story and the like were made. Now, TA"s pre-game clue was talking about characters. The implication was that you should either place no piece in the puzzle of claims or solve everything. Mafia didn"t receive the names of players and characters (ie. Magus - .... NOT Lucky " Magus - ...) , but because TA couldn"t figure out the puzzle you served things up on a platter. I was disappointed when the jailkeeper situation resolved peacefully " that was meant to cause more discord than it did. TA was lynched. Skepsikyma played alright yet I thought that he was obviously displaying inside knowledge. Not lynch worthy material in most players eyes, yet I"m presuming this is what Flippant saw to guide his NP 1 action. Oh, and 1 thought from the Mafia PM " "If Aremair NKs me, will he get my ability? Because if so, then that should be something to consider..." " Skepsikyma . Yes, the Mafia were thinking of killing themselves DP 1 when they only had 2 members!

Continued...
"Tis not in mortals to command success
But we"ll do more, Sempronius, we"ll deserve it
Logic_on_rails
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5/18/2013 2:48:31 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
NP 1 was mixed. TUF ran into the trap of investigating Kierhein. Mafia looked to have a near perfect NP until... Flippant changed his action. Originally they submitted a bulletproof night action. I was waiting on 1 or 2 actions, and when I came home they chose to redirect to Skep... game changing. Instead of town being in trouble, they smashed the Mafia in the NP. And to add insult to injury, Lucky recruited F-16. Now F-16 had to keep Lucky alive as well as himself.

DP 2 was pretty amusing. TUF brought forth his investigation against Drafter... and nothing happened. Yet another thing that I clearly miscalculated " I thought a lynch might have happened. The Editor"s early death brought forth lots of interesting theories about story design. Drafter actually stumbled upon an earlier draft storyline of my game. Suffice to say though the story was simpler than it appeared. From memory OneElephant had some nice analysis this DP. Flippant was fairly sharp. I remember lots of players being pretty far off the mark with regards to Mafia. However, Lucky was so, so close to being lynched. Mafia could have died without ever being lynched you know. By the way, Blight"s Bane (Magus" PM name) was the most interesting PM in this game for me to read, especially when it was just Magus and Aremair. Mafia having to save 3rd parties... TV got lynched. Suffice to say, neither TV nor TUF ever found the crucial clue in Gared"s story which revealed most of Aremair"s role, including the inquisitor part by deduction. A grand shame.

NP 2 was a bad night for the town. Drafter miskilled and the Mafia was soothing roles all over the place. (the jailers were soothed most nights, that"s why Bull"s roleblock of F-16 failed) . Key point: TUF tried to investigate Lucky yet F-16 killed him. Lucky"s death would have spelled game over for the Mafia. Town was oh so close to winning here. As it was, Aremair now gained reflexive roleblocker powers.

DP 3 and the "scum" factions began to control things. With King Maegor supporting Magus and some really bad town thinking the game was going nowhere; this was probably due to the strange nature of Magus" role though (people considered Lucky semi-confirmed) . Flippant was playing sharp. Then the whole screenshots thing occurred... I feel horrible about this whole thing " it basically killed the game. Getting rid of Flippant as a player + the punishment (forcing the Paladin to be bulletproof for the inquisitor) completely threw this game for a loop. Drafter was killed.

NP 3 the Mafia had nearly everything dancing merrily upon their chosen tune. The Paladin came over to their side (and with it Yin"s vote) and nearly everybody was soothed. One person who could have made an issue here was Bull... who forfeited his action through inactivity. Bossy (after choosing role cop before though there were better options available) investigates OneElephant, which isn"t that helpful.

DP 4 is critical for the town... and they totally botch it. The only role with a functioning aspect to it (besides Bull), the only role that could possibly do anything to clear up anything, is lynched without much work. The Mafia didn"t even need to exercise all their votes. Too easy.

NP 4 is basically deciding the endgame. Mafia protect and kill TUF, gaining his allegiance as per inquisitorial powers. This hands Magus a win though. If they killed Magus it would have gone to the next DP.

Other notes

The only hydra who I actually saw conversing with each other was yin.yang . Nice to see them working well together, even if the analysis was a bit off.

Flippant ought to get the best player award for this game, barring his questionable confirmation attempt... Sure, he made some behavioural mistakes, but he was by far the sharpest player on the town side. F-16 gets some significant credit for his good performance as Mafia + kudos for the sheer amount of time he invested into this game.

Lots of activity from other players, and the inaccurate analysis was partially because of how my game didn"t make perfect internal sense " Drafter"s analysis often fell into this category.

Feedback

I'm always open to feedback, in fact, it's one thing I quite like. Please give some insight on the following if possible:

1. Do you think this game was well balanced? Why / why not?
2. Is my modding style too haphazard? Should I be less creative with roles?
3. Did I mod well?
4. Was this game enjoyable?
5. Did you enjoy the OPs and endscenes of mine? *
6. Any particular role or ideas you want to see back in the future?

*I know that they have story elements and my writing is really poor at times, but still answer this!

I'm interested in hearing any and all feedback - criticism helps at times. I'd be interested to hear from past players in my games how this ranks.

Finally, let me again extend my thanks to all of you for playing in my game. I know that many of you are time pressed, and committing to this may have been difficult, so I thank you all the more for it. I hope that I can repeat this success with all of the creme de la creme next time.

And so the curtain draws to a close...

Logic
"Tis not in mortals to command success
But we"ll do more, Sempronius, we"ll deserve it
F-16_Fighting_Falcon
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5/18/2013 3:47:44 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
It was interesting that Lucky recruited me. It made for a cool story when the only two scum in the game were in a PM and discussing plans to help town. I think the game design gave me an advantage because I knew that Lucky was third party but Lucky (by game design) didn't know I was mafia. So, well played Lucky. For the majority of the game, I wondered in my mafia PM whether Lucky knew I was mafia and was always considering the possibility that he figured it out.

I was able to get through primarily because Lucky confirmed me. Lucky, I am puzzled as to why you gave me a free pass the entire game but it was fun winning together. Although at some point, I thought the game was about to end which was when Lucky had a ton of votes on him. Fortunately, Lucky sneakily wormed his way out as he always does.

Posting screenshots of PMs shouldn't be allowed. When FB demanded that Noumena and I post screenshots of our hydra PM, it would have crippled the game and gave us away.

Here it is if you want to see: http://www4.picturepush.com...

Noumena flaked out of the game without a care in the world. When I asked him about it, he gave "hydra" as an excuse for being inactive... I still wonder what causes people to do this. Regardless, I deny that the "Mafia effectively insinuated that they"d suicide if no corrective action was taken."

All of my comments in the mafia PM regarding this matter amounted to the following:

"Logic, I am currently in the middle of finals week but I'll see if I can find time [to vote on a debate]. I can't promise anything though. On another note:

"Anyway, it wasn't against the rules to screenshot our pm discussions as long as logic wasn't a part of them. We are both hydras. From our screenshot it's clear we are neither mafia nor third party."

I'll have stuff to say to them at the endgame...
"

regarding the initial information that Flippant and YinYang had exchanged hydras. I didn't think that it was fair. I don't know what else to say because it was all hashed out in the DPs. Once the PMs were actually posted, I said:

FlippantBouyancy posted screenshots of their hydra PMs in the day phase now. They also posted the PM that YinYang posted to them in their PM. They are now demanding that I post the screenshot between me and Noumena. The notion is absurd. I disagree with allowing them to post it in their private PM, but to post it in the day phase is just completely insane. It beats the purpose of the game of mafia. I ask that their slots be modkilled. While I have no issues with FT/Yraelz as people, Paladin's Taryschenn is now confirmed town beyond a reasonable doubt by virtue of their role PMs being available. Same goes for Sworn Sword Lionel. The worst part is that even if they are modkilled, town has the advantage as they are able to eliminate those players from suspicion and can move onto actual scummy players. They have not wasted lynches. The only way it would be fair is to punish town with a day phase for each of them in addition to modkilling them, so ending this DP with one of their deaths and skipping the next DP automatically with the other's death. (as though they were lynched).

When Logic told me that a modkill would kill the game, I asked "And in response to his and OneE's demand that I post the hydra PM between myself and Noumena?"

To Logic response that he would declare posting of the hydra PMs to be illegal, the matter was not argued further and there was nothing else that I said that was critical of the game, the mod, the players, and did not threaten to leave the game at any point. I was pessimistic about our chances of winning but always made it clear that I was going to give it my best shot.
TUF
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5/18/2013 3:50:17 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
Even if I had investigated lucky guilty I would have no credibility since drafter flipped innocent.

Anyways FT was completely right about lucky syphean lol. Fun game logic. The story was masterfully written and a great time to read.

I assumed syphean to be confirmed.via his claim of desottle, which is rather foolish considering the mafia had every fake claim in the book available to them.
"I've got to go and grab a shirt" ~ Airmax1227
F-16_Fighting_Falcon
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5/18/2013 4:01:31 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
Flippant were also easily the best players among the town.

I was really looking forward to having them in the mafia. If the screenshots weren't posted, I'd have killed Bull NP4 and recruited Flippant NP5. Wish they stayed in the game.
drafterman
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5/18/2013 5:30:17 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
I have some issues, player and mod wise.

1. I don't know why Lucky lied about not being able to recruit mafia. Maybe it's my fault for trusting him, but I couldn't imagine additional twists over the all the affiliation change stuff. Speaking of which...

2. Why didn't Sisys affiliation change? I don't see any exception in his role function. With Skep dead and Sisy recruited, why didnt that end the game right there?

3. I appreciate making an exception for me reverting back to Town upon death, but Maegor being recruited fvcked me anyway. Lucky was going to be lynched without my intervention anyway, so I basically had to die. I should have been immune to his role.
drafterman
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5/18/2013 5:33:11 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 5/18/2013 5:27:41 AM, F-16_Fighting_Falcon wrote:
At 5/18/2013 5:17:16 AM, drafterman wrote:
I don't understand how mafia wins...

Mafia recruited Sui (who replaced Flippant).

I still don't get it, at end of DP4 it was 5 Town, 2 Mafia, and Lucky. Even ith an NK Mafia doesn't have majority, even with an extra vote.
TUF
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5/18/2013 5:36:50 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
Drafter being a miller to me alone is kind of silly I think. While I guess it makes sense with my story, it completely would have destroyed my credibility as a cop as everyone would think I am flavored...
"I've got to go and grab a shirt" ~ Airmax1227
Buddamoose
Posts: 19,450
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5/18/2013 5:37:38 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
Ach, so lucky was cult?

Goddam cult, i despise that sh!t, especially when there isnt a mason recruiter townside. Cult effectively gets a free, "I'm a mason recruiter fake-claim" and that just throws it from powerful to OP right there...

Other than that, well made game Logic, i enjoyed it thoroughly, cant wait for the next game!
"Reality is an illusion created due to a lack of alcohol"
-Airmax1227

"You were the moon all this time, and he was always there to make you shine."

"Was he the sun?"

"No honey, he was the darkness"

-Kazekirion
TUF
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5/18/2013 5:38:38 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 5/18/2013 5:33:11 AM, drafterman wrote:
At 5/18/2013 5:27:41 AM, F-16_Fighting_Falcon wrote:
At 5/18/2013 5:17:16 AM, drafterman wrote:
I don't understand how mafia wins...

Mafia recruited Sui (who replaced Flippant).

I still don't get it, at end of DP4 it was 5 Town, 2 Mafia, and Lucky. Even ith an NK Mafia doesn't have majority, even with an extra vote.

I think he gave the mafia to mislynches because of the screenshot.
"I've got to go and grab a shirt" ~ Airmax1227
drafterman
Posts: 18,870
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5/18/2013 5:40:41 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 5/18/2013 5:38:38 AM, TUF wrote:
At 5/18/2013 5:33:11 AM, drafterman wrote:
At 5/18/2013 5:27:41 AM, F-16_Fighting_Falcon wrote:
At 5/18/2013 5:17:16 AM, drafterman wrote:
I don't understand how mafia wins...

Mafia recruited Sui (who replaced Flippant).

I still don't get it, at end of DP4 it was 5 Town, 2 Mafia, and Lucky. Even ith an NK Mafia doesn't have majority, even with an extra vote.

I think he gave the mafia to mislynches because of the screenshot.

Oh... So he punished the entire town. Awesome. Not counting this game, I guess.
Buddamoose
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5/18/2013 5:45:17 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
I think it would've been better just to mod-kill in the situation. I understand now wanting to see a game ruined because of mod-kills, but the moment the Scrnshots were posted the game was thrown out of whack anyways.

Sometimes its better to just cut your losses and mod-kill rather than trying to scramble and figure out a way to not do it and keep the game as it was before the offense.
"Reality is an illusion created due to a lack of alcohol"
-Airmax1227

"You were the moon all this time, and he was always there to make you shine."

"Was he the sun?"

"No honey, he was the darkness"

-Kazekirion
Logic_on_rails
Posts: 2,445
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5/18/2013 6:54:42 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 5/18/2013 5:30:17 AM, drafterman wrote:
I have some issues, player and mod wise.

1. I don't know why Lucky lied about not being able to recruit mafia. Maybe it's my fault for trusting him, but I couldn't imagine additional twists over the all the affiliation change stuff. Speaking of which...

Point taken of a sorts. Lucky's behaviour was more anti-town than I would have expected... of a different player. Lucky was allowed to choose.

2. Why didn't Sisys affiliation change? I don't see any exception in his role function. With Skep dead and Sisy recruited, why didnt that end the game right there?

Most games have the cult unable to recruit the Mafia. This game changed that by having the win condition added to pre-existing win conditions, and then having the win condition revert back.


3. I appreciate making an exception for me reverting back to Town upon death, but Maegor being recruited fvcked me anyway. Lucky was going to be lynched without my intervention anyway, so I basically had to die. I should have been immune to his role.

In hindsight this in most definitely a good point. As I said, I didn't quite make this game perfectly and complete it. I didn't really want to have yet more exceptions (look at Aremair's role) to game mechanics, but point taken; you're right on this one.

As to your question about the game end, it's quite simple. At the end of DP 4 8 players remained - 5 town, Lucky, and 2 Mafia. However, since Sui controlled yin's vote, it was effectively 4-1-3 . Mafia chose to protect and kill TUF, recruiting him. That makes it 3-1-4 : game over for the town.
"Tis not in mortals to command success
But we"ll do more, Sempronius, we"ll deserve it
drafterman
Posts: 18,870
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5/18/2013 7:30:01 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 5/18/2013 6:54:42 AM, Logic_on_rails wrote:
At 5/18/2013 5:30:17 AM, drafterman wrote:
I have some issues, player and mod wise.

1. I don't know why Lucky lied about not being able to recruit mafia. Maybe it's my fault for trusting him, but I couldn't imagine additional twists over the all the affiliation change stuff. Speaking of which...

Point taken of a sorts. Lucky's behaviour was more anti-town than I would have expected... of a different player. Lucky was allowed to choose.

2. Why didn't Sisys affiliation change? I don't see any exception in his role function. With Skep dead and Sisy recruited, why didnt that end the game right there?

Most games have the cult unable to recruit the Mafia. This game changed that by having the win condition added to pre-existing win conditions, and then having the win condition revert back.

I'm confused. I thought I stopped being town and became a survivor, you're saying I was a survivor in addition to being town? Did Lucky know that Sisy was mafia?



3. I appreciate making an exception for me reverting back to Town upon death, but Maegor being recruited fvcked me anyway. Lucky was going to be lynched without my intervention anyway, so I basically had to die. I should have been immune to his role.

In hindsight this in most definitely a good point. As I said, I didn't quite make this game perfectly and complete it. I didn't really want to have yet more exceptions (look at Aremair's role) to game mechanics, but point taken; you're right on this one.

As to your question about the game end, it's quite simple. At the end of DP 4 8 players remained - 5 town, Lucky, and 2 Mafia. However, since Sui controlled yin's vote, it was effectively 4-1-3 . Mafia chose to protect and kill TUF, recruiting him. That makes it 3-1-4 : game over for the town.

Yeah... Mafia recruit with no drawbacks plus additional voting powers is almost always overpowered, we saw this in LDFs illuminati game way back when. Especially with multiple recruit abilities.
FourTrouble
Posts: 12,777
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5/18/2013 7:44:36 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
Whether posting the PMs was fair or not was irrelevant insofar as Logic explicitly told us that we were allowed to post them. When we were told we were getting punished for doing something Logic allowed us to do, we asked to be replaced. I wasn't going to condone the punishment of players for doing something the mod allowed them to do. Yraelz also wanted to be replaced. It was completely unfair of the mod to punish us for something he allowed us to do. It is that simple. I really don't have any other comments on this game. It was a disappointment for me, and I'm sure it was a disappointment for Yraelz. When mod errors happen, you don't punish players who are at no fault. You accept that you made an error and move on.
FourTrouble
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5/18/2013 7:47:19 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
F-16, we were essentially confirmed town after killing Skep so the PM incident was really quite unnecessary. Lucky and others pushed for the PMs to be posted and Logic told us, in our role PM, that we were allowed to post them. Logic allowed it. Then, he realized that he made an error, and decided to punish us specifically. That is 100% unfair to us.
FourTrouble
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5/18/2013 7:48:42 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 5/18/2013 5:45:17 AM, Buddamoose wrote:
I think it would've been better just to mod-kill in the situation. I understand now wanting to see a game ruined because of mod-kills, but the moment the Scrnshots were posted the game was thrown out of whack anyways.

Sometimes its better to just cut your losses and mod-kill rather than trying to scramble and figure out a way to not do it and keep the game as it was before the offense.

Logic fvcking allowed us to post the screenshots. We deserved no punishment whatsoever. To not have posted the screenshots, after being told we were allowed to by the mod, is basically not playing to your win condition.
Lucky_Luciano
Posts: 4,350
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5/18/2013 8:32:06 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 5/18/2013 5:30:17 AM, drafterman wrote:
I have some issues, player and mod wise.

1. I don't know why Lucky lied about not being able to recruit mafia. Maybe it's my fault for trusting him, but I couldn't imagine additional twists over the all the affiliation change stuff. Speaking of which...

Because I never wanted the town to win. After Skep's role was revealed DP2 and Logic made me aware that the mafia knew my role, I knew that a solo win was impossible. It is also a lot easier to force mislynches than it is to catch mafia, so I just tried to confuse the hell out of the town with sh!tty reads and ride the mafia's coat-tails. If I tried to go for a solo I would have to be the survivor, and the town would have to win. The problem being that the mafia always had the opportunity to kill or out me out of spite because they knew my role. I had to win with the mafia or with the town, there was no middle ground.

On that note, I figured that F-16 was mafia NP1. So I guess you could say that there was opportunity for a solo, but it would require knowing that F-16 was the last mafia. Without that knowledge, I couldn't act on it. I realized F-16 was mafia when he told me his role. It seemed interesting in that it wouldn't be CC'd and it's something Logic would use, but Desottle of the Mist gains his title because he is able to fight effectively in the mists - as I knew from my role pm - not because he could control them. Therefore I knew he was lying about his role. I eventually grew paranoid of my read when Logic confirmed both of us as town, but I didn't care, F-16 did not have to die for the mafia to win - if he was town. I just posted random fvcking reads in the follower pm and did whatever F-16 wanted because he would never have me lynch a mafioso (I didn't know he was the last one), and obviously lynching one would hurt my chances of winning.
"Age is not important" - Airmax 2014
"Australia... is that a place?" - Airmax 2014
drafterman
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5/18/2013 8:36:49 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 5/18/2013 8:32:06 AM, Lucky_Luciano wrote:
At 5/18/2013 5:30:17 AM, drafterman wrote:
I have some issues, player and mod wise.

1. I don't know why Lucky lied about not being able to recruit mafia. Maybe it's my fault for trusting him, but I couldn't imagine additional twists over the all the affiliation change stuff. Speaking of which...

Because I never wanted the town to win. After Skep's role was revealed DP2 and Logic made me aware that the mafia knew my role, I knew that a solo win was impossible. It is also a lot easier to force mislynches than it is to catch mafia, so I just tried to confuse the hell out of the town with sh!tty reads and ride the mafia's coat-tails. If I tried to go for a solo I would have to be the survivor, and the town would have to win. The problem being that the mafia always had the opportunity to kill or out me out of spite because they knew my role. I had to win with the mafia or with the town, there was no middle ground.

On that note, I figured that F-16 was mafia NP1. So I guess you could say that there was opportunity for a solo, but it would require knowing that F-16 was the last mafia. Without that knowledge, I couldn't act on it. I realized F-16 was mafia when he told me his role. It seemed interesting in that it wouldn't be CC'd and it's something Logic would use, but Desottle of the Mist gains his title because he is able to fight effectively in the mists - as I knew from my role pm - not because he could control them. Therefore I knew he was lying about his role. I eventually grew paranoid of my read when Logic confirmed both of us as town, but I didn't care, F-16 did not have to die for the mafia to win - if he was town. I just posted random fvcking reads in the follower pm and did whatever F-16 wanted because he would never have me lynch a mafioso (I didn't know he was the last one), and obviously lynching one would hurt my chances of winning.

A bold strategy that paid off this time, but will probably hurt you in the long run, meta-wise.
Lucky_Luciano
Posts: 4,350
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5/18/2013 8:39:55 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 5/18/2013 8:36:49 AM, drafterman wrote:
At 5/18/2013 8:32:06 AM, Lucky_Luciano wrote:
At 5/18/2013 5:30:17 AM, drafterman wrote:
I have some issues, player and mod wise.

1. I don't know why Lucky lied about not being able to recruit mafia. Maybe it's my fault for trusting him, but I couldn't imagine additional twists over the all the affiliation change stuff. Speaking of which...

Because I never wanted the town to win. After Skep's role was revealed DP2 and Logic made me aware that the mafia knew my role, I knew that a solo win was impossible. It is also a lot easier to force mislynches than it is to catch mafia, so I just tried to confuse the hell out of the town with sh!tty reads and ride the mafia's coat-tails. If I tried to go for a solo I would have to be the survivor, and the town would have to win. The problem being that the mafia always had the opportunity to kill or out me out of spite because they knew my role. I had to win with the mafia or with the town, there was no middle ground.

On that note, I figured that F-16 was mafia NP1. So I guess you could say that there was opportunity for a solo, but it would require knowing that F-16 was the last mafia. Without that knowledge, I couldn't act on it. I realized F-16 was mafia when he told me his role. It seemed interesting in that it wouldn't be CC'd and it's something Logic would use, but Desottle of the Mist gains his title because he is able to fight effectively in the mists - as I knew from my role pm - not because he could control them. Therefore I knew he was lying about his role. I eventually grew paranoid of my read when Logic confirmed both of us as town, but I didn't care, F-16 did not have to die for the mafia to win - if he was town. I just posted random fvcking reads in the follower pm and did whatever F-16 wanted because he would never have me lynch a mafioso (I didn't know he was the last one), and obviously lynching one would hurt my chances of winning.

A bold strategy that paid off this time, but will probably hurt you in the long run, meta-wise.

The meta-strategy is to lynch me regardless of affiliation unless I am 100% confirmed anyway, so it can't get much worse unless I openly claim third-party. I've stopped doing that though, because people lynch third-parties for the sake of lynching third-parties nowadays.
"Age is not important" - Airmax 2014
"Australia... is that a place?" - Airmax 2014
Lucky_Luciano
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5/18/2013 8:57:21 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 5/18/2013 8:53:59 AM, drafterman wrote:
id still like clarification on the affiliation thing.

I don't think he was very clear about this in my pm either. The way I understood it was that townies became survivors and reverted back to the town when the portal closed. Mafia remained mafiosos, but lost if the portal was not closed.
"Age is not important" - Airmax 2014
"Australia... is that a place?" - Airmax 2014
Lucky_Luciano
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5/18/2013 9:07:36 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
A slight aside, I can now accept my rightful place as the head of my house.
"Age is not important" - Airmax 2014
"Australia... is that a place?" - Airmax 2014
drafterman
Posts: 18,870
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5/18/2013 9:20:19 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 5/18/2013 9:07:36 AM, Lucky_Luciano wrote:
A slight aside, I can now accept my rightful place as the head of my house.

LOL. Touche. Touche.
Skepsikyma
Posts: 8,287
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5/18/2013 9:31:33 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
I liked this game very much, even though FT killed me *shakes fist* but was upset by the whole screenshot debacle. I was relishing the moment when we would pull FT into our fold. Ah well. I think that what helped us out a lot was the fact that FT killed me via a redirect of F-16's kill, so he acquired my abilities afterwards. This means that we still had access to information on all night actions, something which town thought had ended with my death. So, essentially, my death put us down one man while retaining our abilities. If I had been lynched or vig-killed we wouldn't have had access to that information. So my early death wasn't quite as bad as it seemed. Kudos to F-16 and Lucky for pulling off the win; you guys had a couple of close calls and performed marvelously.
"The Collectivist experiment is thoroughly suited (in appearance at least) to the Capitalist society which it proposes to replace. It works with the existing machinery of Capitalism, talks and thinks in the existing terms of Capitalism, appeals to just those appetites which Capitalism has aroused, and ridicules as fantastic and unheard-of just those things in society the memory of which Capitalism has killed among men wherever the blight of it has spread."
- Hilaire Belloc -
TheAntidoter
Posts: 4,323
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5/18/2013 11:17:49 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
What would I have Learned Logic?
Affinity: Fire
Class: Human
Abilities: ????

Nac.

WOAH, COLORED FONT!
F-16_Fighting_Falcon
Posts: 18,324
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5/18/2013 11:50:19 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 5/18/2013 5:33:11 AM, drafterman wrote:
At 5/18/2013 5:27:41 AM, F-16_Fighting_Falcon wrote:
At 5/18/2013 5:17:16 AM, drafterman wrote:
I don't understand how mafia wins...

Mafia recruited Sui (who replaced Flippant).

I still don't get it, at end of DP4 it was 5 Town, 2 Mafia, and Lucky. Even ith an NK Mafia doesn't have majority, even with an extra vote.

We recruited TUF by having Sui protect him and killing him.