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DP1 Mass Claiming Idea

drafterman
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6/7/2013 2:24:40 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
In a nut shell, the pro of mass claiming DP1 is you force the mafia to commit to a fake claim early on, before they've had a chance to A) think of an appropriate character/role combination and B) before they've seen other character/roles to know whether or not they're available.

The con of mass claiming is that you identify all the important power roles, allowing the Mafia to better optimize their actions. Furthermore, Mafia can simply maneuver so they are the last to claim, which reduces the risk they are actually in.

What if we could get the Pro without the Con?
For example, take your character and role and encrypt it with a private key you choose.
So, everyone, DP1, posts the encrypted version of their full claim.
Later, when they wish to actually claim, or when pressured to do so by the Town, they provide their key. If their decrypted claim from DP1 matches what they are claiming, we accept it, if not, we lynch them.

Thus, we can still force the Mafia to commit to a claim, we deny the mafia the ability to wait and see what is claimed before them (since the claims are encrypted), we ensure that they have to stick with whatever claim they committed to DP1, and we don't reveal any sensitive information.
F-16_Fighting_Falcon
Posts: 18,324
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6/7/2013 2:44:15 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
I am assuming, you would scramble the letters or something of that sort. It would be game-breaking. I know for a fact that if people tried it, I would ban it in my modded games.
drafterman
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6/7/2013 2:47:24 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
The only objection I see is that it would be game breaking and against the spirit of Mafia. It'd be interesting to see it happen, though.
SarcasticIndeed
Posts: 2,215
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6/7/2013 2:51:59 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
People used these kinds of codes on mafiascum and the likes, I believe. They are mostly banned. I think every mod should ban them, but it's all up to your opinion, I guess. Highly against mafia, though, unfair.
<SIGNATURE CENSORED> nac
F-16_Fighting_Falcon
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6/7/2013 2:55:26 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
On another note, DP1 mass claiming is a good reason to provide fake-claims for the mafia. If no fake-claims are provided, a DP mass claim could be game-breaking.
drafterman
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6/7/2013 3:52:01 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 6/7/2013 3:34:37 PM, Yraelz wrote:
This isn't remarkably different than either my age claim or anagram claim idea.

Except for, you know, the fact that you can't CC an age claim.
Yraelz
Posts: 4,056
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6/7/2013 3:59:10 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 6/7/2013 3:52:01 PM, drafterman wrote:
At 6/7/2013 3:34:37 PM, Yraelz wrote:
This isn't remarkably different than either my age claim or anagram claim idea.

Except for, you know, the fact that you can't CC an age claim.

Pretty difficult to CC a private key encoded crypto...
drafterman
Posts: 18,870
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6/7/2013 4:03:49 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 6/7/2013 3:59:10 PM, Yraelz wrote:
At 6/7/2013 3:52:01 PM, drafterman wrote:
At 6/7/2013 3:34:37 PM, Yraelz wrote:
This isn't remarkably different than either my age claim or anagram claim idea.

Except for, you know, the fact that you can't CC an age claim.

Pretty difficult to CC a private key encoded crypto...

So you missed the part where they decrypt it when they claim.
drafterman
Posts: 18,870
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6/7/2013 4:26:18 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 6/7/2013 2:55:26 PM, F-16_Fighting_Falcon wrote:
On another note, DP1 mass claiming is a good reason to provide fake-claims for the mafia. If no fake-claims are provided, a DP mass claim could be game-breaking.

Depends on what you mean by "provide fake-claims." If you're saying that you shouldn't reserve all the major characters for the Town, and Town has nothing but major characters. Yes, I agree with you.

If you're saying that you have to tell the mafia which major characters it's safe to claim. No, I disagree with you. Take Naval Warfare mafia. I told you straight up, at the beginning of the game, that we would win based on the information you provided us. And we did win, even with me squandering much of that information away.

From a design perspective, yes, the mafia should have the ability to come up with fake claims that are consistent with the actual characters given to the Town. Part of their job and challenge, though, is to figure out what those safe claims are, not be told what they are.
F-16_Fighting_Falcon
Posts: 18,324
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6/7/2013 4:45:20 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
Drafter, you focus on challenging the mafia, and for the most part, you make good points. The reason I differ is that my primary POV when modding is to provide the town a challenge. I believe that town should be able to figure out mafia even in an all-vanilla game. Not to say that I have been successful doing so, but I have seen games on mafiascum where players have successfully rooted out mafia despite the fact that they barely had any roles at all.

From this POV, roles are not essential for the town to win but rather are additional tools to assist the town. Mafia on mafiascum don't need to fake-claim in most games. Scum can be caught even without fake-claims. Scum know who scum are. Town doesn't. Based on that, there will be behavioral differences. Providing fake-claims still makes it challenging for scum because they still have to hide their motivations and behave in a townish fashion to fool the town.

If no fake-claims are given, it becomes rather easy for town because not only do they have behavioral reads, they also can analyze claims. Mafia have to stop the town on multiple fronts which I believe makes the game town-sided. But if only a couple of mafia had to come up with fake-claims, then town would have everyone's behavior as well as those couple of fake-claims to analyze.

I think a better balance would be to provide a couple of fake-claims, and leave the rest of the mafia to come up with their own.

I think I went a bit overboard in Naval Warfare with Zaradi's role and allowing mafia multiple kills. I still wonder though if you were town and some random noob was mafia in your place, whether the mafia would have won. FT was able to catch 3 mafiosos (all but you), claim or not.

As for the mass claim DP1, mafia have two options: claim towards the end which itself can be a scumtell or claim minor characters which can be used as a scumtell as well. However, when mafia are given fake-claims, town needs to think more comprehensively about how the characters fit in, in order to catch the mafia.
drafterman
Posts: 18,870
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6/7/2013 5:07:07 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 6/7/2013 4:45:20 PM, F-16_Fighting_Falcon wrote:
Drafter, you focus on challenging the mafia, and for the most part, you make good points. The reason I differ is that my primary POV when modding is to provide the town a challenge. I believe that town should be able to figure out mafia even in an all-vanilla game. Not to say that I have been successful doing so, but I have seen games on mafiascum where players have successfully rooted out mafia despite the fact that they barely had any roles at all.

From this POV, roles are not essential for the town to win but rather are additional tools to assist the town. Mafia on mafiascum don't need to fake-claim in most games. Scum can be caught even without fake-claims. Scum know who scum are. Town doesn't. Based on that, there will be behavioral differences. Providing fake-claims still makes it challenging for scum because they still have to hide their motivations and behave in a townish fashion to fool the town.

If no fake-claims are given, it becomes rather easy for town because not only do they have behavioral reads, they also can analyze claims. Mafia have to stop the town on multiple fronts which I believe makes the game town-sided. But if only a couple of mafia had to come up with fake-claims, then town would have everyone's behavior as well as those couple of fake-claims to analyze.

I don't think we really have the analysis available to justify this either way. I'll note that, in your game, we had a fake claim, mafia one. In Logic's most recent game, Mafia had a fake claim, and one.

I never give mafia fake claims and Town has only one once (excluding Batman). The rest have been Mafia or Third Party.


I think a better balance would be to provide a couple of fake-claims, and leave the rest of the mafia to come up with their own.

A couple? Even in large games the size of the mafia rarely sees more than 5. You want to basically eliminate the challenge for half the mafia? Again, giving the mafia free fake claims is equivalent to giving Townies free investigations, yet no one gives the Town anything. I just don't understand the point of giving the Mafia freebees.

In an all vanilla game, both sides should have equal chances of winning. When you hand out roles, the roles should be balanced to keep the chances even. What I don't get is, on top of all of this, to give the mafia - and only the mafia - more stuff, like partial game set-up information, free fake claims, as if the mere existence of roles somehow unfairly handicaps the mafia. Complexity inherently favors the mafia, this is known. Giving them basically a map with which they can more easily navigate the complexity that already favors them is basically multipying their advantage over the town.


I think I went a bit overboard in Naval Warfare with Zaradi's role and allowing mafia multiple kills. I still wonder though if you were town and some random noob was mafia in your place, whether the mafia would have won. FT was able to catch 3 mafiosos (all but you), claim or not.

So, I was just lucky?


As for the mass claim DP1, mafia have two options: claim towards the end which itself can be a scumtell or claim minor characters which can be used as a scumtell as well. However, when mafia are given fake-claims, town needs to think more comprehensively about how the characters fit in, in order to catch the mafia.

Or you make sure that some Townies have minor characters as well.
drafterman
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6/7/2013 5:08:05 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 6/7/2013 5:07:07 PM, drafterman wrote:
At 6/7/2013 4:45:20 PM, F-16_Fighting_Falcon wrote:
Drafter, you focus on challenging the mafia, and for the most part, you make good points. The reason I differ is that my primary POV when modding is to provide the town a challenge. I believe that town should be able to figure out mafia even in an all-vanilla game. Not to say that I have been successful doing so, but I have seen games on mafiascum where players have successfully rooted out mafia despite the fact that they barely had any roles at all.

From this POV, roles are not essential for the town to win but rather are additional tools to assist the town. Mafia on mafiascum don't need to fake-claim in most games. Scum can be caught even without fake-claims. Scum know who scum are. Town doesn't. Based on that, there will be behavioral differences. Providing fake-claims still makes it challenging for scum because they still have to hide their motivations and behave in a townish fashion to fool the town.

If no fake-claims are given, it becomes rather easy for town because not only do they have behavioral reads, they also can analyze claims. Mafia have to stop the town on multiple fronts which I believe makes the game town-sided. But if only a couple of mafia had to come up with fake-claims, then town would have everyone's behavior as well as those couple of fake-claims to analyze.

I don't think we really have the analysis available to justify this either way. I'll note that, in your game, we had a fake claim, mafia won. In Logic's most recent game, Mafia had a fake claim, and won.

I never give mafia fake claims and Town has only won once (excluding Batman). The rest have been Mafia or Third Party.
F-16_Fighting_Falcon
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6/7/2013 5:33:38 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
The game of Mafia by definition pits an informed minority against an uninformed majority. Of course, I believe mafia should be more informed than the town. If that means providing mafia with a map, then that's what it is. And of course, the mere existence of roles help town and "handicap" the mafia. A cop and doc for the town and a roleblocker for the mafia is more town-sided than an all-vanilla setup. The more roles you have, the more town can determine affiliation based on how they fit. I think to compensate the mafia by giving them fake-claims and game setup info counteracts this. Do you think Castle in the Sky unfairly helped the mafia? It was one of the most difficult games to play as mafia in my opinion. This despite the setup info.

I didn't say you were lucky. I said that part of the reason mafia won was because of your skill. If a less skilled player had been in the mafia in Naval Warfare, they might have lost. Meaning the victory was determined by skill.

We can make sure townies have minor characters as well. However, how will the mafia manufacture claims that should later fit in with roles if they are forced to mass-claim at the beginning of the game with no fake-claims? They don't know which major and minor characters are taken and which are not. This means that they have to claim towards the end which could be construed as scummy. Else, they risk being counterclaimed. It makes it rather easy for town. I don't believe there was a mass-claim in any of your games, correct me if I am wrong. I think that a mass claim could end up being gamebreaking depending on the theme. I think if the theme is narrow, mafia definitely should have fake-claims. If it is really broad, I am a bit more undecided on that.

I say a "couple" as in half the mafia shouldn't have to fake-claim. That still leaves the other half being required to fake claim.
drafterman
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6/7/2013 6:35:09 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 6/7/2013 5:33:38 PM, F-16_Fighting_Falcon wrote:
The game of Mafia by definition pits an informed minority against an uninformed majority. Of course, I believe mafia should be more informed than the town. If that means providing mafia with a map, then that's what it is.

Well, no. The "informed" part isn't just an open-ended thing. The thing the mafia are informed about is who is mafia and who is Town. That's it. That's like saying, the Town should be in the majority. If that means having 12 townies and a single mafia, then that's what it is.

And of course, the mere existence of roles help town and "handicap" the mafia. A cop and doc for the town and a roleblocker for the mafia is more town-sided than an all-vanilla setup.

Completely disagree.
http://wiki.mafiascum.net...
http://wiki.mafiascum.net...

Again, I reassert the axiom that complexity inherently favors the Mafia.
"I do agree that with the increase in the complexity of games, towns have become severely disadvantaged." - medic
http://www.debate.org...

"Yeah, I think the complexity of the games is another reason why it is getting more and more difficult for town - but I think that is a good thing." - F-16
http://www.debate.org...

Certainly specific combinations of roles are Town or mafia sided, but that hardly proves that the mere existence of roles help town and "handicap" the mafia.

The more roles you have, the more town can determine affiliation based on how they fit. I think to compensate the mafia by giving them fake-claims and game setup info counteracts this.

I'd say I disagree. The more roles you have, the more likely you have to resort to uncommon or custom roles for the Town, thus opening the door for the mafia to have more freedom in what they claim. And again, I'm not saying that the mafia should be completely shut out from having any available fake-claims (character or role) I just thing they need to figure out what they are, not be given them, free-of-charge, up front.

Do you think Castle in the Sky unfairly helped the mafia? It was one of the most difficult games to play as mafia in my opinion. This despite the setup info.

In this specific case, no. You were only 2 out of 5, contending with a cult.


I didn't say you were lucky. I said that part of the reason mafia won was because of your skill. If a less skilled player had been in the mafia in Naval Warfare, they might have lost. Meaning the victory was determined by skill.

You misunderstand. I don't mean lucky in winning, I mean lucky in my guess that we would win.


We can make sure townies have minor characters as well. However, how will the mafia manufacture claims that should later fit in with roles if they are forced to mass-claim at the beginning of the game with no fake-claims? They don't know which major and minor characters are taken and which are not. This means that they have to claim towards the end which could be construed as scummy. Else, they risk being counterclaimed. It makes it rather easy for town. I don't believe there was a mass-claim in any of your games, correct me if I am wrong. I think that a mass claim could end up being gamebreaking depending on the theme. I think if the theme is narrow, mafia definitely should have fake-claims. If it is really broad, I am a bit more undecided on that.

In theory, you're mostly right, in practice it would never work this way because you couldn't coordinate to have enough people online to cast sufficient suspicion on the late comers. Again, I agree that a game should be designed such that it can't be broken via mass claim. Again, I disagree that this requires giving the Mafia freebees.


I say a "couple" as in half the mafia shouldn't have to fake-claim. That still leaves the other half being required to fake claim.
F-16_Fighting_Falcon
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6/7/2013 7:32:56 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
@ Drafter, all good points. For the most part, I'll agree that you are right when it comes to themes that are broad enough, Naval warfare being one example.

What about themes where the number of characters is small and most characters in the theme would be used up?
TUF
Posts: 21,309
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6/7/2013 7:47:02 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 6/7/2013 2:24:40 PM, drafterman wrote:
In a nut shell, the pro of mass claiming DP1 is you force the mafia to commit to a fake claim early on, before they've had a chance to A) think of an appropriate character/role combination and B) before they've seen other character/roles to know whether or not they're available.

The con of mass claiming is that you identify all the important power roles, allowing the Mafia to better optimize their actions. Furthermore, Mafia can simply maneuver so they are the last to claim, which reduces the risk they are actually in.

What if we could get the Pro without the Con?
For example, take your character and role and encrypt it with a private key you choose.
So, everyone, DP1, posts the encrypted version of their full claim.
Later, when they wish to actually claim, or when pressured to do so by the Town, they provide their key. If their decrypted claim from DP1 matches what they are claiming, we accept it, if not, we lynch them.

Thus, we can still force the Mafia to commit to a claim, we deny the mafia the ability to wait and see what is claimed before them (since the claims are encrypted), we ensure that they have to stick with whatever claim they committed to DP1, and we don't reveal any sensitive information.

I agree. How come everytime I suggest one people think I am scummy, or meet the idea with flack? Latley I just don't even think about it anymore because people will think I am scummy for suggesting it.

Anyways can you give an example of the encyrpted key? I am trying to figure this out.
"I've got to go and grab a shirt" ~ Airmax1227
drafterman
Posts: 18,870
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6/7/2013 8:05:07 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 6/7/2013 7:32:56 PM, F-16_Fighting_Falcon wrote:
@ Drafter, all good points. For the most part, I'll agree that you are right when it comes to themes that are broad enough, Naval warfare being one example.

What about themes where the number of characters is small and most characters in the theme would be used up?

I agree the tighter the theme, and smaller the pool of characters the more "help" the mafia would be. In fact, I even have a game design where, by explicit nature of one of the roles, they have a fake claim.
drafterman
Posts: 18,870
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6/7/2013 8:10:52 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 6/7/2013 7:47:02 PM, TUF wrote:
At 6/7/2013 2:24:40 PM, drafterman wrote:
In a nut shell, the pro of mass claiming DP1 is you force the mafia to commit to a fake claim early on, before they've had a chance to A) think of an appropriate character/role combination and B) before they've seen other character/roles to know whether or not they're available.

The con of mass claiming is that you identify all the important power roles, allowing the Mafia to better optimize their actions. Furthermore, Mafia can simply maneuver so they are the last to claim, which reduces the risk they are actually in.

What if we could get the Pro without the Con?
For example, take your character and role and encrypt it with a private key you choose.
So, everyone, DP1, posts the encrypted version of their full claim.
Later, when they wish to actually claim, or when pressured to do so by the Town, they provide their key. If their decrypted claim from DP1 matches what they are claiming, we accept it, if not, we lynch them.

Thus, we can still force the Mafia to commit to a claim, we deny the mafia the ability to wait and see what is claimed before them (since the claims are encrypted), we ensure that they have to stick with whatever claim they committed to DP1, and we don't reveal any sensitive information.

I agree. How come everytime I suggest one people think I am scummy, or meet the idea with flack? Latley I just don't even think about it anymore because people will think I am scummy for suggesting it.

There are a lot of tactics that we just assume are good or bad that I would love to try out in practice. The problem is it'd be hard to get enough people on board to do that.


Anyways can you give an example of the encyrpted key? I am trying to figure this out.

Easy:
1. Go here: http://www.tools4noobs.com...
2. Think of a "key" - a passphrase. Enter it in the "key" box.
3. Type in your full claim in the big text box.
4. Select settings (or leave at default, I changed the algorithm to "DES")
5. Click "Encrypt this!"

The encrypted text, appearing in the bottom box, is your "claim."
For example: N2AND6rSXirbtL67156nZw==

Later in the game, you tell people what your passphrase was, and any special settings you used (e.g. that you used DES). They would:

1. Go here: http://www.tools4noobs.com...
2. Type in the provided passphrase.
3. Paste in the encrypted claim from earlier (N2AND6rSXirbtL67156nZw==)
4. Change any settings necessary
5. Click "Decrypt this!"

If everything works, the decrypted text will appear, which is what they claimed.
UnStupendousMan
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6/7/2013 10:04:36 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
Addressing TUF's comments in the Dr. Who mafia:

1. You have the code, which you dangle out like you're holding food above us and we're starved puppies, unable to obtain what we so desperately want. To be fair, this does make the mafia claim extra early, but

I gave you the key to unlock it so you should be able to find my claim. Starved puppies? If you really care so much about the claim than find it. I am going to make it harder for the mafia to find it.

But, when and if this is implemented, one doesn't just give the code along with the encrypted message, if I'm informed correctly. That period where you don't have the decryption code but the encrypted message will be maddening, like in my overly-emotionally-charged metaphor.

2. We have less ways to confirm you're town, or cc you if you're mafia, thereby leaving mafiosos in a twilight zone where they can wreck damage while they put off giving people the key.

No, if we demand the key and they don't give it, we lynch them. Pretty easy, and straightforward. You mis-understand the part of the mass coded claim, being that everyone has to do it, that way if a mafia member gives theirs, there is more liklihood of being CC'ed. And they were forced to out at the beginning.

Okay, that point is pretty much invalidated, so I concede.

3. Not everyone has access to the decrypt tools because they're on a phone or whatnot, and you are just flipping them off if a phone or whatnot is all they have to play mafia on at that particular time.

Budda has a laptop. If not, than others will be able to out the roles later on. You are just looking for excuses.

Why do you pull out that particular example when I talk in general terms? Anyway, not all of us have access to a laptop or a PC all the time, and that lag time between everyone outing the role and everyone that is laptop/PC-enabled receiving information on that role is just going to be an lengthening of the period where you don't have info just because you were in the wrong place at the wrong time.

Okay, maybe I am just looking for excuses. But question: why go this route, with all its extra steps, than just mass claiming? I understand the need to get mafia fake-claims and squash them without revealing all the people who probably have power roles, but this is just some smoke and mirrors to prolong and complexify (that's a word now) this process.

I, personally, don't think it's worth it. But, then again, opinion's opinion.
Logical-Master
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6/8/2013 7:39:03 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
Role claiming (especially the mass claiming variety) makes this game laughably easy. Unless the town has no clue about the theme, is being lazy, is incompetent or is suffering from uncooperative players, it is really hard to actually lose under these conditions. This is because the game was never meant to be about role claiming, but about making inferences off of someone's behavior.

I invited Yraelz and flaskbob to a game I hosted on another site. There, I warned the town from the beginning that role claiming was useless. I provided the mafia two very good fake claims. One that stopped the town dead in its tracks from lynching someone who was obviously mafia. I also created other elements to the game that made the mafia more powerful (via recruiting one player through process of elimination) should the town resort over-emphasis on claiming. In the end, the town caught on and nearly won, but lost due to one player's obsession with role claiming.
Logical-Master
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6/8/2013 7:55:03 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 6/7/2013 4:45:20 PM, F-16_Fighting_Falcon wrote:
Drafter, you focus on challenging the mafia, and for the most part, you make good points. The reason I differ is that my primary POV when modding is to provide the town a challenge. I believe that town should be able to figure out mafia even in an all-vanilla game. Not to say that I have been successful doing so, but I have seen games on mafiascum where players have successfully rooted out mafia despite the fact that they barely had any roles at all.

Mods should strive towards keeping the game effectively as close to the vanilla game as possible. This doesn't mean you can't spice things up, give everybody a role and add some unique elements to the game. All the same, when you get to the point where you're focused on "challenging" the mafia by coming up with ways to make them act upon data they have no real clue about, the game becomes grossly unbalanced. If the mafia do win, it won't be the result of "skill", but a really bad town.