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Open setups that force behavioral analysis

F-16_Fighting_Falcon
Posts: 18,324
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6/28/2013 1:26:17 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
Consider a game with no roles at all, let's say 5 vanillas and 2 goons. How likely is it that town would win a game? It depends almost wholly on the relative skill of the mafia compared with the town with a pro-mafia tilt - meaning if skill was equal, mafia would probably win. While it might make sense as a quickfire game, it probably won't be actually modded by players who want to see their own game design implemented.

I've tried running a game on DDO where there was no role analysis to help the town (Game 124 in the archives: http://www.debate.org...). The result was that town lynched town almost every day. I tried not doing it again precisely because I felt it was near impossible for the town to win that setup. Yet, I ran essentially the same setup on mafiascum where town won (http://forum.mafiascum.net...). As you can see from the game, rapidcanyon is my alt, the game is titled "mafia and werewolves" as opposed to "Fire and Ice mafia" and the mafia lawyers and lyncher are eliminated. Besides that, the setup was nearly identical. Yet, town won that game. This leads me to think that the problem was perhaps not with the setup but that on average, town plays better than scum on mafiascum while DDO players are more skilled as scum. I wonder what the thoughts of players that played Fire and Ice mafia would be when seeing that town won a very similar setup. I'd be interested in hearing your insights.

I do agree with some good points brought against the setup however. There were multiple scum factions which meant that scum hunted for the other faction therefore eliminating one of the most fundamental towntells (scumhunting). Other concerns about the setup were that there was no way to find scum - they couldn't be tracked, watched, or reliably investigated.

What would you think about an open setup where the behavioral cues are intensified as opposed to negated? A setup like "white flag" (http://wiki.mafiascum.net...(Open_Setup)) where town wins when only one mafia player is alive makes it more difficult for the mafia to pretend to be town. While there are no roles to assist the town, the setup is tweaked in a way to help the town catch those behavioral cues since the last mafia can't bus. The "vengeful" setups that we played quickfire with are technically half white flag setup considering that if the GF is lynched, the game ends but not if the goon is lynched. Full white flag can be played if any 2 of 3 scum are lynched, they lose. Or if any 3 scum out of 4 are lynched, they lose. This could be expanded into games with roles but the town power should be fairly light since the setup itself is designed to assist the town in lieu of roles.

Another idea is chosen mafia (http://wiki.mafiascum.net...), a 9P setup where as both chosen townies are alive, mafia cannot win and the chosen townies cannot be nk'd. This forces the mafia's hand and requires them to lynch one of two players leaving a lot of clues in the process. There are plenty of open setups that would be really interesting if played on DDO. I just wonder what the reception would be to games with no roles or games that have very few roles but setups that give behavioral clues in lieu of roles by assigning additional goals to the mafia giving additional motivational clues for the town to catch on.
Yraelz
Posts: 4,056
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6/28/2013 2:25:29 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
I think that games with many roles attract newer players to mafia. However, really good players will tend to gravitate towards motivation tells over everything else. The type of games you are suggesting will attract players that are very good or players that are interested in developing their motivational reads.
Eitan_Zohar
Posts: 2,697
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6/28/2013 2:36:33 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 6/28/2013 2:27:23 AM, Yraelz wrote:
Also, chosen mafia is awesome.

Woah woah woah. Didn't you have like 3 posts on the forums total when you came back from hiatus? or am I confusing you with someone else?
"It is my ambition to say in ten sentences what others say in a whole book."
TUF
Posts: 21,297
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6/28/2013 2:49:03 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
mafia scum and DDO are really different entities. I don't know if I would feel comfortable agreeing with the statement that ones better at town, or ones better at mafia based in the different result of a game with the same set up. Not only is every game situational, but mafia styles on DDO are completely different than that of mafia scum.

We can base a lot of scum catches off of role claims, character claims, and public information. This is how mafia on DDO has been from the beginning. However on mafia scum, power roles are few, and most players tend to lack an ability. Mafia scum is based off of purely behavior. I would play mafia scum more, but having to wait a week just to have someone respond to your FOS gets vexing. I am not keen for the slow paced game.
"I've got to go and grab a shirt" ~ Airmax1227
F-16_Fighting_Falcon
Posts: 18,324
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6/28/2013 2:54:44 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
Mafiascum players are in general more experienced than DDO players and have a great talent for pinning down scum motivations and behaviors. There are also very few Fracks and Lannans and even the biggest VIs can post some sort of decent analysis. Yet, the lack of roles make them poor fake-claimers in general. Someone like Lucky or Logic could easily manipulate the town and have them believe their claims. I remember in one game, I was demotivated and inactive as scum and got under a lot of pressure with one player I know going so far as to create a huge meta-case on me. Yet, I fake-claimed cop and backed it up with some fake-breadcrumbs and that got the pressure off. We only lost to the SK because the SK killed me at night. So, in general, I would say they are good at behavioral analysis although not as good with fake-claims. Remember, many games on mafiascum have an abundance of vanillas and players do not need to fake claim roles.
FourTrouble
Posts: 12,757
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6/28/2013 2:51:50 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
Mafiascum players have far more experience than players here. Some of the players there have been playing for 8 or even 10 years. They also read games they don't play in, and put more effort into meta research as town, giving them exposure to far more games and scum-tells than players here. What I find refreshing about playing there is that I'll never get called scum for the things I consistently get called scum for on DDO. That said, regarding your game, it seems to be a case of bad scum more than good town. The meta on mafiascum makes it very easy to catch bad players as scum because the difference in their analysis as town is so readily apparent. The better players there have higher win rates as scum than as town though, and from what I understand, scum win more often than town. It largely just depends on the competency of the mafia, and the skill of the town. Typically, more good players end up on the town side, and when good players flip innocent, they are paid more heed to there than here. Still, mafia win more often.
Ore_Ele
Posts: 25,980
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6/28/2013 3:21:49 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
I think the biggest difference is going to be the speed of the game. On Maficscum, games can be only minutes, occasionally an hour. This means that potential scum have almost no time to craft their plans and their claims compared to what we have here. This means they are more likely to flinch or make a mistake.
"Wanting Red Rhino Pill to have gender"
Ore_Ele
Posts: 25,980
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6/28/2013 3:23:07 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
I think it is just two different playing environments that breed two different types of players. I'd bet that if you took 10 of their players and through them in here, we would have the advantage (and vise versa).
"Wanting Red Rhino Pill to have gender"
SarcasticIndeed
Posts: 2,215
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6/28/2013 3:23:34 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 6/28/2013 3:21:49 PM, Ore_Ele wrote:
I think the biggest difference is going to be the speed of the game. On Maficscum, games can be only minutes, occasionally an hour. This means that potential scum have almost no time to craft their plans and their claims compared to what we have here. This means they are more likely to flinch or make a mistake.

Wait, how can a forum game end in an hour? Or are we talking about 5 player setups?
<SIGNATURE CENSORED> nac
Ore_Ele
Posts: 25,980
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6/28/2013 3:29:52 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 6/28/2013 3:23:34 PM, SarcasticIndeed wrote:
At 6/28/2013 3:21:49 PM, Ore_Ele wrote:
I think the biggest difference is going to be the speed of the game. On Maficscum, games can be only minutes, occasionally an hour. This means that potential scum have almost no time to craft their plans and their claims compared to what we have here. This means they are more likely to flinch or make a mistake.

Wait, how can a forum game end in an hour? Or are we talking about 5 player setups?

wait a minute... I'm thinking of epic mafia... forget everything I said.
"Wanting Red Rhino Pill to have gender"
F-16_Fighting_Falcon
Posts: 18,324
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6/28/2013 3:30:29 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
I think you are confusing it with epicmafia. Mafiascum games are actually much longer than games on DDO leading to much deeper analysis.

I think the best players on mafiascum would play very well on DDO. The average person though might have problems.