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TUF
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8/5/2013 8:38:49 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
Lucky's game is my guinea pig for this, but if you guys think this is useful let me know. I think it would be a nice idea for town to write their reads and paste them in a google docs page, putting the link in their signature. Claimlists, can also be put there. That way we don't have to constantly asks for reads, if we miss them. Also you won't have to scroll through the day phases.

This I think is a fair townie tactic. Though I am sure someone will find a way to construe it as unfair, in which I will probably debate you on it, and you will build a bandwagon with un-supported arguments, and then mods will just dis-allow it for no good reason, as what always happens. lol
"I've got to go and grab a shirt" ~ Airmax1227
F-16_Fighting_Falcon
Posts: 18,324
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8/5/2013 10:01:34 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
I disagree that we should account for "scummy playstyles" while deciding who to lynch though.

Let's take an example: a player claims hated townie when he is actually popular. The correct move is to lynch them for lying. If we allow players to get away with it, what's to stop mafia from retracting their fake-claim and trying again if things go wrong?

An example would be a player that claims reviver and then alludes to a town power role. If you assume that this is player specific (player X fake-claims as town so we'll let it slide), then you could be allowing mafia to coast.

Town almost never have to fake-claim. If you lynch all the fake-claimers, there is a good chance, you'll lynch mostly mafia. If some town get mislynched, they will learn the next game to not fake-claim.
F-16_Fighting_Falcon
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8/5/2013 10:03:55 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
Also, your whole (let's not lynch 3P, I disagree with too). You are wilfully allowing other factions to win ahead of you and then claiming a "victory." I just don't understand how it works. I'll happily debate you on "when a player claims third party, the most pro-town move is to lynch them."

Pro-town is defined as actions that increase the likelihood of town victory. Victory is defined as coming in first place.
Lucky_Luciano
Posts: 4,350
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8/5/2013 10:09:40 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 8/5/2013 10:01:34 AM, F-16_Fighting_Falcon wrote:
I disagree that we should account for "scummy playstyles" while deciding who to lynch though.

Let's take an example: a player claims hated townie when he is actually popular. The correct move is to lynch them for lying. If we allow players to get away with it, what's to stop mafia from retracting their fake-claim and trying again if things go wrong?

An example would be a player that claims reviver and then alludes to a town power role. If you assume that this is player specific (player X fake-claims as town so we'll let it slide), then you could be allowing mafia to coast.

Town almost never have to fake-claim. If you lynch all the fake-claimers, there is a good chance, you'll lynch mostly mafia. If some town get mislynched, they will learn the next game to not fake-claim.

By this logic I should be a policy lynch.
"Age is not important" - Airmax 2014
"Australia... is that a place?" - Airmax 2014
drafterman
Posts: 18,870
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8/5/2013 10:45:50 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 8/5/2013 10:09:40 AM, Lucky_Luciano wrote:
At 8/5/2013 10:01:34 AM, F-16_Fighting_Falcon wrote:
I disagree that we should account for "scummy playstyles" while deciding who to lynch though.

Let's take an example: a player claims hated townie when he is actually popular. The correct move is to lynch them for lying. If we allow players to get away with it, what's to stop mafia from retracting their fake-claim and trying again if things go wrong?

An example would be a player that claims reviver and then alludes to a town power role. If you assume that this is player specific (player X fake-claims as town so we'll let it slide), then you could be allowing mafia to coast.

Town almost never have to fake-claim. If you lynch all the fake-claimers, there is a good chance, you'll lynch mostly mafia. If some town get mislynched, they will learn the next game to not fake-claim.

By this logic I should be a policy lynch.

And?
Lucky_Luciano
Posts: 4,350
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8/5/2013 10:46:32 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 8/5/2013 10:45:50 AM, drafterman wrote:
At 8/5/2013 10:09:40 AM, Lucky_Luciano wrote:
At 8/5/2013 10:01:34 AM, F-16_Fighting_Falcon wrote:
I disagree that we should account for "scummy playstyles" while deciding who to lynch though.

Let's take an example: a player claims hated townie when he is actually popular. The correct move is to lynch them for lying. If we allow players to get away with it, what's to stop mafia from retracting their fake-claim and trying again if things go wrong?

An example would be a player that claims reviver and then alludes to a town power role. If you assume that this is player specific (player X fake-claims as town so we'll let it slide), then you could be allowing mafia to coast.

Town almost never have to fake-claim. If you lynch all the fake-claimers, there is a good chance, you'll lynch mostly mafia. If some town get mislynched, they will learn the next game to not fake-claim.

By this logic I should be a policy lynch.

And?

I guess I can't argue against that. I've won my last 6 or 7 games though! I'm not sure if I've lost in 2013. :D
"Age is not important" - Airmax 2014
"Australia... is that a place?" - Airmax 2014
Khaos_Mage
Posts: 23,214
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8/5/2013 11:09:58 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 8/5/2013 10:01:34 AM, F-16_Fighting_Falcon wrote:
I disagree that we should account for "scummy playstyles" while deciding who to lynch though.

Let's take an example: a player claims hated townie when he is actually popular. The correct move is to lynch them for lying. If we allow players to get away with it, what's to stop mafia from retracting their fake-claim and trying again if things go wrong?

An example would be a player that claims reviver and then alludes to a town power role. If you assume that this is player specific (player X fake-claims as town so we'll let it slide), then you could be allowing mafia to coast.

Town almost never have to fake-claim. If you lynch all the fake-claimers, there is a good chance, you'll lynch mostly mafia. If some town get mislynched, they will learn the next game to not fake-claim.

This post reminds me of someone :)
My work here is, finally, done.
Khaos_Mage
Posts: 23,214
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8/5/2013 11:20:19 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 8/5/2013 10:01:34 AM, F-16_Fighting_Falcon wrote:
I disagree that we should account for "scummy playstyles" while deciding who to lynch though.

Let's take an example: a player claims hated townie when he is actually popular. The correct move is to lynch them for lying. If we allow players to get away with it, what's to stop mafia from retracting their fake-claim and trying again if things go wrong?
If you are referring to me, realize that I was an odd-hated/even-popular townie, so it wasn't a lie. My reason for lying was to catch scum at the endgame. I think this is an acceptable lie to make. This lie can be seen as townish and genuine.

An example would be a player that claims reviver and then alludes to a town power role. If you assume that this is player specific (player X fake-claims as town so we'll let it slide), then you could be allowing mafia to coast.
If you are referring to me, this was a stretch of a play that went south. This lie should have been, and was, seen for what it was, desparation to stay alive. It is selfish, and likely not to be townish. It was either a bold lie (mafia) or a failed gambit. 50% scum is worth a lynch if no better leads are available.

Town almost never have to fake-claim. If you lynch all the fake-claimers, there is a good chance, you'll lynch mostly mafia. If some town get mislynched, they will learn the next game to not fake-claim.

I disagree with this statement.
1. I don't learn. ;)
2. Fake-claiming to trap mafia is not anti-town. Also, anti-town playstyles (like my being misunderstood) necessitate fake-claims, if I were to have a power role and wish to avoid an NK.

Look at Eternal Nightmare. I'm not implying I have a power role, but I am getting flack for "stalling" for not outing if my role is active, which would indicate the possibility of a power role.
Some players can operate by refusing to answer questions, while others can't. This disparity requires different tactics to be available.
My work here is, finally, done.
Khaos_Mage
Posts: 23,214
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8/5/2013 11:24:27 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 8/5/2013 8:38:49 AM, TUF wrote:
Lucky's game is my guinea pig for this, but if you guys think this is useful let me know. I think it would be a nice idea for town to write their reads and paste them in a google docs page, putting the link in their signature. Claimlists, can also be put there. That way we don't have to constantly asks for reads, if we miss them. Also you won't have to scroll through the day phases.
But, you're reads are changed as time goes on, thus hiding any contrived reasoning. It helps the mafia, too.

This I think is a fair townie tactic. Though I am sure someone will find a way to construe it as unfair, in which I will probably debate you on it, and you will build a bandwagon with un-supported arguments, and then mods will just dis-allow it for no good reason, as what always happens. lol

I won't do it, and I likely won't look at others', since I don't like to open up links and I don't want to check 10 different claimslists to verify the information.
Also, it is harder to reply to an unthreaded comment to make a defense, and mafia could just change the words in the inthread post to incriminate someone, since there is no history of changes.
My work here is, finally, done.
F-16_Fighting_Falcon
Posts: 18,324
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8/5/2013 11:25:34 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
Fake-claiming is anti-town because you are doing what only scum need to do. So, you are putting yourself into the "scum" pile from the point of view of other townies. This increases the pool of likely scum and makes it more difficult to lynch accurately. If you claim honestly and do nothing that scum would do, you would be correctly read as town by other players decreasing the pool of potential scum and eliminating a townie (you) from that pool making it more likely that scum are lynched.
F-16_Fighting_Falcon
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8/5/2013 11:28:33 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 8/5/2013 11:24:27 AM, Khaos_Mage wrote:
This is a good point. The essence of mafia is that you can never edit your posts. Once you post, it is done. However, if you can edit your posts, that allows mafia to cover up scumslips and there won't be a way to go back and see how the person's thought process evolved over time to find incriminating things.
drafterman
Posts: 18,870
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8/5/2013 11:31:50 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
"[L]ies can be indistinguishable from deliberate scum gambits, and leaving them unpunished reinforces the behavior as a viable option for scum.
http://wiki.mafiascum.net...

"[F]irstly, lies and deception are the best tools the Mafia have in the game, while the marker of a Townie is their honesty and genuineness at scumhunting. Thus a player caught using lies and deception is, arguably, probably a scum player who must lie in order to survive. Secondly, the tenets of Lynch all Liars is designed to promote good Townie behavior; if it becomes acceptable for Townies to regularly lie and use deception to avoid being voted or suspicioned, then it becomes a game of distinguishing Townie lies from Scum lies, which is outside the "spirit" of Mafia."
http://mafiawiki.notesmash.org...
Maikuru
Posts: 9,112
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8/5/2013 11:32:10 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 8/5/2013 11:28:33 AM, F-16_Fighting_Falcon wrote:
At 8/5/2013 11:24:27 AM, Khaos_Mage wrote:
This is a good point. The essence of mafia is that you can never edit your posts. Once you post, it is done. However, if you can edit your posts, that allows mafia to cover up scumslips and there won't be a way to go back and see how the person's thought process evolved over time to find incriminating things.

I didn't think about that. That's true. The reads list can be used to provide easy access for reads that were already posted in the DP, as Tuf did. It should be used as a means to prevent a need for post searching, not for providing original posts.
"You assume I wouldn't want to burn this whole place to the ground."
- lamerde

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Khaos_Mage
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8/5/2013 11:32:31 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 8/5/2013 11:25:34 AM, F-16_Fighting_Falcon wrote:
Fake-claiming is anti-town because you are doing what only scum need to do. So, you are putting yourself into the "scum" pile from the point of view of other townies. This increases the pool of likely scum and makes it more difficult to lynch accurately. If you claim honestly and do nothing that scum would do, you would be correctly read as town by other players decreasing the pool of potential scum and eliminating a townie (you) from that pool making it more likely that scum are lynched.

So, lying that you do not have a power role is bad?
I should just claim doctor because people are using my playstyle against me (exploring possibilities, viewed as contrived reasons for being suspicious), and force me to claim. Town should just lose a doctor on DP1?
My work here is, finally, done.
Lucky_Luciano
Posts: 4,350
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8/5/2013 11:34:42 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 8/5/2013 11:20:19 AM, Khaos_Mage wrote:
Look at Eternal Nightmare. I'm not implying I have a power role, but I am getting flack for "stalling" for not outing if my role is active, which would indicate the possibility of a power role.
Some players can operate by refusing to answer questions, while others can't. This disparity requires different tactics to be available.

Don't talk about ongoing games.
"Age is not important" - Airmax 2014
"Australia... is that a place?" - Airmax 2014
Khaos_Mage
Posts: 23,214
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8/5/2013 11:36:02 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 8/5/2013 11:31:50 AM, drafterman wrote:
"[L]ies can be indistinguishable from deliberate scum gambits, and leaving them unpunished reinforces the behavior as a viable option for scum.
http://wiki.mafiascum.net...

"[F]irstly, lies and deception are the best tools the Mafia have in the game, while the marker of a Townie is their honesty and genuineness at scumhunting. Thus a player caught using lies and deception is, arguably, probably a scum player who must lie in order to survive. Secondly, the tenets of Lynch all Liars is designed to promote good Townie behavior; if it becomes acceptable for Townies to regularly lie and use deception to avoid being voted or suspicioned, then it becomes a game of distinguishing Townie lies from Scum lies, which is outside the "spirit" of Mafia."
http://mafiawiki.notesmash.org...

Why must they be lumped together?
Let's take my lie about being hated townie (which technically wasn't a lie). It was clearly in the vein of scumhunting. And, if I was confirmed as a popular townie, I would be an NK target.
My work here is, finally, done.
Lucky_Luciano
Posts: 4,350
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8/5/2013 11:38:16 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
For clarity, I'm all for the Lynch all Liars policy, in theory. The thing is it loses games. It hurts your chances in a current game to raise the quality of future games. I'd rather show people forgiveness for their mistakes, show them how to win the game they are in, and hope they learn in the future. This also lets them develop their skills.

In my defense, yes, I fake claim and lie a lot as town. However, I do it damn well and it's always extremely planned out. It's always meant to bait the mafia and I do it in a manner that min/maxes my role's potential. Randomly fake claiming and lying is bad, and I don't suggest anybody try to do what I do. But somebody would be hard-pressed to argue that fake-claiming and lying, in the manner that I have done it recently, has not benefited the town and maximized the potential of my roles.
"Age is not important" - Airmax 2014
"Australia... is that a place?" - Airmax 2014
Khaos_Mage
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8/5/2013 11:38:19 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 8/5/2013 11:34:42 AM, Lucky_Luciano wrote:
At 8/5/2013 11:20:19 AM, Khaos_Mage wrote:
Look at Eternal Nightmare. I'm not implying I have a power role, but I am getting flack for "stalling" for not outing if my role is active, which would indicate the possibility of a power role.
Some players can operate by refusing to answer questions, while others can't. This disparity requires different tactics to be available.

Don't talk about ongoing games.

Sorry.
I was speaking in hypothetical using an actual circumstance as illustration.
My work here is, finally, done.
Maikuru
Posts: 9,112
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8/5/2013 11:39:36 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 8/5/2013 11:38:16 AM, Lucky_Luciano wrote:
For clarity, I'm all for the Lynch all Liars policy, in theory. The thing is it loses games. It hurts your chances in a current game to raise the quality of future games. I'd rather show people forgiveness for their mistakes, show them how to win the game they are in, and hope they learn in the future. This also lets them develop their skills.

In my defense, yes, I fake claim and lie a lot as town. However, I do it damn well and it's always extremely planned out. It's always meant to bait the mafia and I do it in a manner that min/maxes my role's potential. Randomly fake claiming and lying is bad, and I don't suggest anybody try to do what I do. But somebody would be hard-pressed to argue that fake-claiming and lying, in the manner that I have done it recently, has not benefited the town and maximized the potential of my roles.

Lynch all inexperienced liars.
"You assume I wouldn't want to burn this whole place to the ground."
- lamerde

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Lucky_Luciano
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8/5/2013 11:39:55 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 8/5/2013 11:39:36 AM, Maikuru wrote:
At 8/5/2013 11:38:16 AM, Lucky_Luciano wrote:
For clarity, I'm all for the Lynch all Liars policy, in theory. The thing is it loses games. It hurts your chances in a current game to raise the quality of future games. I'd rather show people forgiveness for their mistakes, show them how to win the game they are in, and hope they learn in the future. This also lets them develop their skills.

In my defense, yes, I fake claim and lie a lot as town. However, I do it damn well and it's always extremely planned out. It's always meant to bait the mafia and I do it in a manner that min/maxes my role's potential. Randomly fake claiming and lying is bad, and I don't suggest anybody try to do what I do. But somebody would be hard-pressed to argue that fake-claiming and lying, in the manner that I have done it recently, has not benefited the town and maximized the potential of my roles.

Lynch all inexperienced liars.

Maikuru for President!
"Age is not important" - Airmax 2014
"Australia... is that a place?" - Airmax 2014
drafterman
Posts: 18,870
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8/5/2013 12:05:48 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 8/5/2013 11:32:31 AM, Khaos_Mage wrote:
At 8/5/2013 11:25:34 AM, F-16_Fighting_Falcon wrote:
Fake-claiming is anti-town because you are doing what only scum need to do. So, you are putting yourself into the "scum" pile from the point of view of other townies. This increases the pool of likely scum and makes it more difficult to lynch accurately. If you claim honestly and do nothing that scum would do, you would be correctly read as town by other players decreasing the pool of potential scum and eliminating a townie (you) from that pool making it more likely that scum are lynched.

So, lying that you do not have a power role is bad?

Yes.

I should just claim doctor because people are using my playstyle against me (exploring possibilities, viewed as contrived reasons for being suspicious), and force me to claim. Town should just lose a doctor on DP1?

Why would they lose you on DP1?
drafterman
Posts: 18,870
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8/5/2013 12:08:35 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 8/5/2013 11:36:02 AM, Khaos_Mage wrote:
At 8/5/2013 11:31:50 AM, drafterman wrote:
"[L]ies can be indistinguishable from deliberate scum gambits, and leaving them unpunished reinforces the behavior as a viable option for scum.
http://wiki.mafiascum.net...

"[F]irstly, lies and deception are the best tools the Mafia have in the game, while the marker of a Townie is their honesty and genuineness at scumhunting. Thus a player caught using lies and deception is, arguably, probably a scum player who must lie in order to survive. Secondly, the tenets of Lynch all Liars is designed to promote good Townie behavior; if it becomes acceptable for Townies to regularly lie and use deception to avoid being voted or suspicioned, then it becomes a game of distinguishing Townie lies from Scum lies, which is outside the "spirit" of Mafia."
http://mafiawiki.notesmash.org...

Why must they be lumped together?

Because "it becomes a game of distinguishing Townie lies from Scum lies" and because such gambits rarely work, and because it helps scum out in the long run since one of the primary methods of finding scum is catching them in a lie. You lie, you die.

Let's take my lie about being hated townie (which technically wasn't a lie). It was clearly in the vein of scumhunting. And, if I was confirmed as a popular townie, I would be an NK target.

I don't even... how is that gambit even supposed to work? I wouldn't lynch you for lynching, I would lynch you for thinking that was a viable tactic.
drafterman
Posts: 18,870
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8/5/2013 12:09:49 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 8/5/2013 11:38:16 AM, Lucky_Luciano wrote:
For clarity, I'm all for the Lynch all Liars policy, in theory. The thing is it loses games. It hurts your chances in a current game to raise the quality of future games. I'd rather show people forgiveness for their mistakes, show them how to win the game they are in, and hope they learn in the future. This also lets them develop their skills.

In my defense, yes, I fake claim and lie a lot as town. However, I do it damn well and it's always extremely planned out. It's always meant to bait the mafia and I do it in a manner that min/maxes my role's potential. Randomly fake claiming and lying is bad, and I don't suggest anybody try to do what I do. But somebody would be hard-pressed to argue that fake-claiming and lying, in the manner that I have done it recently, has not benefited the town and maximized the potential of my roles.

History Mafia.
Khaos_Mage
Posts: 23,214
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8/5/2013 12:10:07 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 8/5/2013 12:05:48 PM, drafterman wrote:
At 8/5/2013 11:32:31 AM, Khaos_Mage wrote:
At 8/5/2013 11:25:34 AM, F-16_Fighting_Falcon wrote:
Fake-claiming is anti-town because you are doing what only scum need to do. So, you are putting yourself into the "scum" pile from the point of view of other townies. This increases the pool of likely scum and makes it more difficult to lynch accurately. If you claim honestly and do nothing that scum would do, you would be correctly read as town by other players decreasing the pool of potential scum and eliminating a townie (you) from that pool making it more likely that scum are lynched.

So, lying that you do not have a power role is bad?

Yes.
Even when you are unduly pressured to out it? I disagree, and I know you will call for my lynch for it. I accept that possibility, just as you will accept the possibility of allowing for others to unfairly pressure someone, since some can avoid pressure by refusal to claim, and others cannot.

I should just claim doctor because people are using my playstyle against me (exploring possibilities, viewed as contrived reasons for being suspicious), and force me to claim. Town should just lose a doctor on DP1?

Why would they lose you on DP1?
Sorry, I meant NP1.
My work here is, finally, done.
drafterman
Posts: 18,870
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8/5/2013 12:11:07 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 8/5/2013 12:10:07 PM, Khaos_Mage wrote:
At 8/5/2013 12:05:48 PM, drafterman wrote:
At 8/5/2013 11:32:31 AM, Khaos_Mage wrote:
At 8/5/2013 11:25:34 AM, F-16_Fighting_Falcon wrote:
Fake-claiming is anti-town because you are doing what only scum need to do. So, you are putting yourself into the "scum" pile from the point of view of other townies. This increases the pool of likely scum and makes it more difficult to lynch accurately. If you claim honestly and do nothing that scum would do, you would be correctly read as town by other players decreasing the pool of potential scum and eliminating a townie (you) from that pool making it more likely that scum are lynched.

So, lying that you do not have a power role is bad?

Yes.
Even when you are unduly pressured to out it?

Yes.

I disagree, and I know you will call for my lynch for it. I accept that possibility, just as you will accept the possibility of allowing for others to unfairly pressure someone, since some can avoid pressure by refusal to claim, and others cannot.

Unfairly pressure? Unduly pressure? I don't even know what this is. What makes pressure "fair"?


I should just claim doctor because people are using my playstyle against me (exploring possibilities, viewed as contrived reasons for being suspicious), and force me to claim. Town should just lose a doctor on DP1?

Why would they lose you on DP1?
Sorry, I meant NP1.

Why would they lose you NP1?
Lucky_Luciano
Posts: 4,350
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8/5/2013 12:17:18 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 8/5/2013 12:09:49 PM, drafterman wrote:
At 8/5/2013 11:38:16 AM, Lucky_Luciano wrote:
For clarity, I'm all for the Lynch all Liars policy, in theory. The thing is it loses games. It hurts your chances in a current game to raise the quality of future games. I'd rather show people forgiveness for their mistakes, show them how to win the game they are in, and hope they learn in the future. This also lets them develop their skills.

In my defense, yes, I fake claim and lie a lot as town. However, I do it damn well and it's always extremely planned out. It's always meant to bait the mafia and I do it in a manner that min/maxes my role's potential. Randomly fake claiming and lying is bad, and I don't suggest anybody try to do what I do. But somebody would be hard-pressed to argue that fake-claiming and lying, in the manner that I have done it recently, has not benefited the town and maximized the potential of my roles.

History Mafia.

You mean when I got myself night killed NP1 as the Beloved Princess which optimally let's the town have a free NP? It's not my fault that there was a role that made everybody in the game a vanilla/goon.
"Age is not important" - Airmax 2014
"Australia... is that a place?" - Airmax 2014
Khaos_Mage
Posts: 23,214
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8/5/2013 12:17:23 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 8/5/2013 12:11:07 PM, drafterman wrote:
At 8/5/2013 12:10:07 PM, Khaos_Mage wrote:
At 8/5/2013 12:05:48 PM, drafterman wrote:
At 8/5/2013 11:32:31 AM, Khaos_Mage wrote:
At 8/5/2013 11:25:34 AM, F-16_Fighting_Falcon wrote:
Fake-claiming is anti-town because you are doing what only scum need to do. So, you are putting yourself into the "scum" pile from the point of view of other townies. This increases the pool of likely scum and makes it more difficult to lynch accurately. If you claim honestly and do nothing that scum would do, you would be correctly read as town by other players decreasing the pool of potential scum and eliminating a townie (you) from that pool making it more likely that scum are lynched.

So, lying that you do not have a power role is bad?

Yes.
Even when you are unduly pressured to out it?

Yes.

I disagree, and I know you will call for my lynch for it. I accept that possibility, just as you will accept the possibility of allowing for others to unfairly pressure someone, since some can avoid pressure by refusal to claim, and others cannot.

Unfairly pressure? Unduly pressure? I don't even know what this is. What makes pressure "fair"?
It's largely subjective.
Let's take what Noumena did to me in Depp mafia.
Now, he only wanted a character claim, but what would you have done, when Tom Hanson was clearly the cop?


I should just claim doctor because people are using my playstyle against me (exploring possibilities, viewed as contrived reasons for being suspicious), and force me to claim. Town should just lose a doctor on DP1?

Why would they lose you on DP1?
Sorry, I meant NP1.

Why would they lose you NP1?

Would not the mafia be likely to take out the doc? Docs, at least in your last game, cannot self-protect, so if they are targeted, they will die.
My work here is, finally, done.
Lucky_Luciano
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8/5/2013 12:20:04 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 8/5/2013 12:17:18 PM, Lucky_Luciano wrote:
At 8/5/2013 12:09:49 PM, drafterman wrote:
At 8/5/2013 11:38:16 AM, Lucky_Luciano wrote:
For clarity, I'm all for the Lynch all Liars policy, in theory. The thing is it loses games. It hurts your chances in a current game to raise the quality of future games. I'd rather show people forgiveness for their mistakes, show them how to win the game they are in, and hope they learn in the future. This also lets them develop their skills.

In my defense, yes, I fake claim and lie a lot as town. However, I do it damn well and it's always extremely planned out. It's always meant to bait the mafia and I do it in a manner that min/maxes my role's potential. Randomly fake claiming and lying is bad, and I don't suggest anybody try to do what I do. But somebody would be hard-pressed to argue that fake-claiming and lying, in the manner that I have done it recently, has not benefited the town and maximized the potential of my roles.

History Mafia.

You mean when I got myself night killed NP1 as the Beloved Princess which optimally let's the town have a free NP? It's not my fault that there was a role that made everybody in the game a vanilla/goon.

If anything was sub-optimal about my play it was the fact that maximizing the benefits of my role left the town running around like headless chickens when I knew who both mafia were the moment they role claimed DP2. That's a flaw with roles that require you to kill yourself to be effective, not with my play.
"Age is not important" - Airmax 2014
"Australia... is that a place?" - Airmax 2014
Khaos_Mage
Posts: 23,214
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8/5/2013 12:21:33 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 8/5/2013 11:39:36 AM, Maikuru wrote:
At 8/5/2013 11:38:16 AM, Lucky_Luciano wrote:
For clarity, I'm all for the Lynch all Liars policy, in theory. The thing is it loses games. It hurts your chances in a current game to raise the quality of future games. I'd rather show people forgiveness for their mistakes, show them how to win the game they are in, and hope they learn in the future. This also lets them develop their skills.

In my defense, yes, I fake claim and lie a lot as town. However, I do it damn well and it's always extremely planned out. It's always meant to bait the mafia and I do it in a manner that min/maxes my role's potential. Randomly fake claiming and lying is bad, and I don't suggest anybody try to do what I do. But somebody would be hard-pressed to argue that fake-claiming and lying, in the manner that I have done it recently, has not benefited the town and maximized the potential of my roles.

Lynch all inexperienced liars.

I would amend this further, and say that if the lie is feasibly town in nature (at least in thinking, not in execution), they should be spared unless there is no better lynch target.

A lie that is solely self-preservation is not good-intentioned, thus not townish in nature.
My work here is, finally, done.