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Mafia Tactics: Please answer these questions

TUF
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8/18/2013 12:46:42 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
Okay so I"ve been trying a lot of new things lately in mafia as I like to do with every few games, to find new things that work for me, and single out the things that don"t. I don"t like sticking to a single play style if it doesn"t work for me. Over the years of playing mafia, I have tried some things that I might now butt heads with myself if I were playing with the old TUF.

Some of the big things I have been looking to take out of my play is ignorance, and persistent of being right rather than looking at behavior. As debaters sometimes we tend to get a little distracted with theory discussion in games, so much that we will make deductions about people"s affiliations with them. I don"t blame people for doing this; the games are meant for playing, but when all you have to look at is people"s arguments about theory and tactics, the day phases can seem a little cluttered, but you also only have the theory discussion to go off of when determining their affiliation.

One of the two best things that help me change my playstyle, is results. If I have over analyzed something, or under-analyzed it, results from mis-lynching is a good way for me to learn things that work and don"t work. The second thing is player feedback, which is why I am creating this thread. While player feedback isn"t ultimately a reliable source individually, I think there is a certain truth behind a mass of people who agree with the same thing. Sometimes there is a sort of mob mentality and bandwagon effect however, that tends to influence ways of thinking, such that we create policies, and SOP"s that may be ultimately harmful from a townie position.

So taking this all into consideration, I want to talk a little bit about mafia tactics, and break down why we do things the way we do, and figure out what is working unanimously, and what isn"t working. I ask that people please don"t use things as being policy as the sole contention of their reasoning, and provide their own reasoning for why they think things are the way they are. I may question certain things pretty intensely, but please don"t take me as dis-agreeing with you. My sole purpose for this thread is wanting to understand, and I will be unjudgmental. So if you could please oblige me, and indulge in this discussion, it would be very much appreciated. I may use this thread as a reference in future games as well, for certain applicable answers.

So if you could answer these questions as honestly and un-biased as you possibly can, I would appreciate it.

1. What is your stance on lynching "bad" players for purposes of detraction to the game, regardless of their affiliation?

2. What do you consider to be bad town play?

3. What do you consider to be a good town play?

4. Should we counter claim someone if our is slightly similar to another role, or should we keep quiet?

5. What is your stance on mass claiming?

6. Why is pushing for character claims important?

7. If someone plays scummily, but claims a powerful role, would you have reserves for lynching them?

8. What deduction would you make about a player who contradicts analysis they made in the game, or in previous games?

9. Do you thinking mis-lynching can be beneficial to the town?

10. What do you think is the most power town role, and why?

11. Do you believe scum tells are objective, or can vary between players?

12. Is lynching always better than no lynching?

13. Is it ever okay to lie as town?

14. Is it better to start pressure off randomly, or to target bad/new players?

15. Should third parties ever live?

16. As mafia is it better to pick off good players, or good roles?

17. Should we always trust results if there is no evidence of investigation tampering role?

18. What do you consider fluff posting?

19. Is fluff posting scummy, if so than why?

20. Is there a point to character claiming in games with themes the mods made up?

21. Do you think it is harmful to label players as confirmed ?(not considering mod confirmations)

22. Is lynching an inactive player better than no lynching?

23. If a player is online, and not posting, or posting elsewhere, is it safe to assume they are lurking?

24. Are there town reasons to lurk?

25. Are OP"s important?

26. Can reading too much into an OP be harmful?

27. As third party, is it easier or better to survive with townies, or mafia members?

28. As mafia is it more important to look townish, make others look scummy, or to create confusion?

Okay I know there are a lot of questions here, and I hope this doesn"t overwhelm anyone too much. If it makes it easier, go ahead just answer as much as you can. Also if answering some of these will result on your being caught in another game, or contradict something you are saying in another game to look town, you can ignore answering some of them for now. Thanks!

-TUF.
"I've got to go and grab a shirt" ~ Airmax1227
Maikuru
Posts: 9,112
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8/18/2013 1:36:45 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
I'm taking a break from mafia for a while, so I'll use this little survey as my goodbye. Assume all my answers are circumstantial.

1. What is your stance on lynching "bad" players for purposes of detraction to the game, regardless of their affiliation?

I consider a "bad" player to be one who reads scummy, is inactive, distracting, reckless, or makes objectively poor choices. If there is a question of affiliation, I am for their lynch. If their affiliation is strongly considered town, I would rather petition for their replacement or simply dictate to them what to do.

Take Frack's play in Lucky's recent Eternal Nightmare game. His play met every one of the above criteria. At the same time, he was so obviously town to me that it was more beneficial to the town to simply give him instructions on what to do and focus on other players. Poor play in that case generally protects those townies from night kills, narrowing the field for the rest of the players.

2. What do you consider to be bad town play?

Bad play is an extension of bad traits, the worst of which I consider to be selfishness, recklessness (especially with one's vote), inactivity, speaking cryptically, spamming/trolling/flaming, failing to read, and gullibility.

3. What do you consider to be a good town play?

Open-mindedness, patience, reading all game information thoroughly, civility, activity, and a positive attitude.

4. Should we counter claim someone if our is slightly similar to another role, or should we keep quiet?

Judgement call. If you're worried one way or another, make a note of the similarity in some fashion.

5. What is your stance on mass claiming?

Pro.

6. Why is pushing for character claims important?

Mostly generating discussion, unless the theme is known or the OP's are detailed, in which case it may aid in scum-hunting.

7. If someone plays scummily, but claims a powerful role, would you have reserves for lynching them?

Scummy players should die. Painfully, if at all possible.

8. What deduction would you make about a player who contradicts analysis they made in the game, or in previous games?

Contradictory analysis within or across games is usually the strongest factor for me in terms of determining scum, unless the train of thought is clear.

9. Do you thinking mis-lynching can be beneficial to the town?

Sure. Obviously a mislynch shouldn't be knowingly pursued, but a lynch that turns out to be a mislynch still rids the game of what was likely a scummy players, reveals information regarding the types and style of PM's and roles in the game, and provides interaction info.

10. What do you think is the most power town role, and why?

Dreamer seems devastating, though I've never seen one survive past NP1 lol. Also, sensors. Eliminating players as possibilities is what really matters.

11. Do you believe scum tells are objective, or can vary between players?

They vary.

12. Is lynching always better than no lynching?

Unless it's MYLO, yes.

13. Is it ever okay to lie as town?

Sure. "I am the bomb" probably isn't the best play.

14. Is it better to start pressure off randomly, or to target bad/new players?

I prefer starting with bad/new players, just because I like watching them squirm.

15. Should third parties ever live?

If it's between a third party win and a mafia win, I'd rather give it to the TP. Otherwise, no.

16. As mafia is it better to pick off good players, or good roles?

A power role in the hands of a poor player is generally less dangerous than vice versa, unless the role in question directly inhibits a specific plan.

17. Should we always trust results if there is no evidence of investigation tampering role?

Defer to trusting results.

18. What do you consider fluff posting?

Anything that doesn't teach you something new, be it about the game or about the player's perspective in the game.

19. Is fluff posting scummy, if so than why?

Absolutely. The more fluff posts in a game, the less inclined I am, and I'm sure others are, to read it.

20. Is there a point to character claiming in games with themes the mods made up?

Original theme games imply a story and a thought process. Characters generally maintain some kind of internal consistency and make their way into OP's. They are relevant.

21. Do you think it is harmful to label players as confirmed ?(not considering mod confirmations)

No, so long as it is understand that anything's possible. Narrowing the focus of the other players and putting pressure on those more likely to be scum is a good idea.

22. Is lynching an inactive player better than no lynching?

Yes.

23. If a player is online, and not posting, or posting elsewhere, is it safe to assume they are lurking?

Yes.

24. Are there town reasons to lurk?

No.

25. Are OP"s important?

Very. I love OP's. I live and breathe OP's.

26. Can reading too much into an OP be harmful?

Over-analyzing anything can be harmful. In general, mod-provided information is information to be considered.

27. As third party, is it easier or better to survive with townies, or mafia members?

Assuming even play from both sides and also assuming you do not have an ability that would otherwise protect you from one side or the other, townies. It is better to appear to be genuinely scum hunting (though perhaps doing so poorly).

28. As mafia is it more important to look townish, make others look scummy, or to create confusion?

As scum, my goal is always to look townish because that's something I know I can do and because that is my goal as town, also. Let your roles create confusion and townies do a good job of making other townies appear scummy.
"You assume I wouldn't want to burn this whole place to the ground."
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tulle
Posts: 4,445
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8/18/2013 3:07:54 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
I disagree with there being no town reason to lurk. Sometimes you have nothing to add to the game but you feel like posting in another thread. Better to lurk than provide a fluff post, right? I lurk all the time, as both town and mafia.
yang.
Maikuru
Posts: 9,112
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8/18/2013 3:24:40 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 8/18/2013 3:07:54 PM, tulle wrote:
I disagree with there being no town reason to lurk. Sometimes you have nothing to add to the game but you feel like posting in another thread. Better to lurk than provide a fluff post, right? I lurk all the time, as both town and mafia.

If I'm in a game, I'm not going to assume that. I'm not interested in explaining away the inactivity of others.
"You assume I wouldn't want to burn this whole place to the ground."
- lamerde

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tulle
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8/18/2013 3:46:18 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
So what if a player has nothing to add? They can't log on to DDO until they have something to say that other players won't write off as "fluff"? You said yourself that if a player is posting in other threads but not the game, it's lurking and therefore scummy, AND that if they don't offer anything new, it's fluff and therefore scummy.

Why can't it just be that they have something to say in another thread and nothing new to add in the game?

Forcing people to post just because they're online increases the number of fluff posts from everyone.
yang.
tulle
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8/18/2013 3:48:16 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 8/18/2013 3:46:18 PM, tulle wrote:
So what if a player has nothing to add? They can't log on to DDO until they have something to say that other players won't write off as "fluff"? You said yourself that if a player is posting in other threads but not the game, it's lurking and therefore scummy, AND that if they don't offer anything new, it's fluff and therefore scummy.

Why can't it just be that they have something to say in another thread and nothing new to add in the game?

Forcing people to post just because they're online increases the number of fluff posts from everyone.

... baby.
yang.
FourTrouble
Posts: 12,771
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8/18/2013 3:48:33 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 8/18/2013 12:46:42 PM, TUF wrote:
Okay so I"ve been trying a lot of new things lately in mafia as I like to do with every few games, to find new things that work for me, and single out the things that don"t. I don"t like sticking to a single play style if it doesn"t work for me. Over the years of playing mafia, I have tried some things that I might now butt heads with myself if I were playing with the old TUF.

Some of the big things I have been looking to take out of my play is ignorance, and persistent of being right rather than looking at behavior. As debaters sometimes we tend to get a little distracted with theory discussion in games, so much that we will make deductions about people"s affiliations with them. I don"t blame people for doing this; the games are meant for playing, but when all you have to look at is people"s arguments about theory and tactics, the day phases can seem a little cluttered, but you also only have the theory discussion to go off of when determining their affiliation.

One of the two best things that help me change my playstyle, is results. If I have over analyzed something, or under-analyzed it, results from mis-lynching is a good way for me to learn things that work and don"t work. The second thing is player feedback, which is why I am creating this thread. While player feedback isn"t ultimately a reliable source individually, I think there is a certain truth behind a mass of people who agree with the same thing. Sometimes there is a sort of mob mentality and bandwagon effect however, that tends to influence ways of thinking, such that we create policies, and SOP"s that may be ultimately harmful from a townie position.

So taking this all into consideration, I want to talk a little bit about mafia tactics, and break down why we do things the way we do, and figure out what is working unanimously, and what isn"t working. I ask that people please don"t use things as being policy as the sole contention of their reasoning, and provide their own reasoning for why they think things are the way they are. I may question certain things pretty intensely, but please don"t take me as dis-agreeing with you. My sole purpose for this thread is wanting to understand, and I will be unjudgmental. So if you could please oblige me, and indulge in this discussion, it would be very much appreciated. I may use this thread as a reference in future games as well, for certain applicable answers.

So if you could answer these questions as honestly and un-biased as you possibly can, I would appreciate it.

1. What is your stance on lynching "bad" players for purposes of detraction to the game, regardless of their affiliation?

I support policy lunches if that's what you mean. I don't think players should be lynched just because they are bad though.

2. What do you consider to be bad town play?

Passivity and inactivity.

3. What do you consider to be a good town play?

Active, flexible, and smart.

4. Should we counter claim someone if our is slightly similar to another role, or should we keep quiet?

It depends how close. I don't like counter-claims and I hardly take them seriously anymore.

5. What is your stance on mass claiming?

It depends on the game. In general, it hurts town and helps mafia.

6. Why is pushing for character claims important?

It depends on the game, but in general, it's not. It is more important to figure out who is scummy enough to lynch sans claims. Then, you can use claims afterwards to increase chances of lynching scum.

7. If someone plays scummily, but claims a powerful role, would you have reserves for lynching them?

It depends.

8. What deduction would you make about a player who contradicts analysis they made in the game, or in previous games?

Town seem to contradict themselves more often, mostly because they are trying to figure the game out and are constantly revising reads and changing opinions. I'd be much more worried about the guy who tunnels a single person all game and never changes their opinion or contradicts something.

9. Do you thinking mis-lynching can be beneficial to the town?

10. What do you think is the most power town role, and why?

If it helps the town won, sure. Policy lynches are a good example. Lynching royal in Johny Depp is another example.

11. Do you believe scum tells are objective, or can vary between players?

There are no absolutes in mafia. Looking for scum-tells is counter-productive, especially since townies commit them all the time and scum know not to.

12. Is lynching always better than no lynching?

No.

13. Is it ever okay to lie as town?

Yes.

14. Is it better to start pressure off randomly, or to target bad/new players?

Random if roles were randomized. Otherwise, focus on bad players and inactives.

15. Should third parties ever live?

Rarely. If it helps town win, why not?

16. As mafia is it better to pick off good players, or good roles?

Situational.

17. Should we always trust results if there is no evidence of investigation tampering role?

It depends. There are other factors like behavior and setup analysis that should be taken into account.

18. What do you consider fluff posting?

What scum post. It is void of content.

19. Is fluff posting scummy, if so than why?

Yes, fluff is scummy because townies have no reason to post it.

20. Is there a point to character claiming in games with themes the mods made up?

It depends.

21. Do you think it is harmful to label players as confirmed ?(not considering mod confirmations)

No, confirming players is the strongest tool the town has. There is nothing scarier to the mafia then townies banding together o lynch scum.

22. Is lynching an inactive player better than no lynching?

Yes.

23. If a player is online, and not posting, or posting elsewhere, is it safe to assume they are lurking?

No.

24. Are there town reasons to lurk?

No.

25. Are OP"s important?

No.

26. Can reading too much into an OP be harmful?

Yes.

27. As third party, is it easier or better to survive with townies, or mafia members?

Situational.

28. As mafia is it more important to look townish, make others look scummy, or to create confusion?

As mafia, you want to look more town than the townies. Process of elimination takes care of the rest.

Okay I know there are a lot of questions here, and I hope this doesn"t overwhelm anyone too much. If it makes it easier, go ahead just answer as much as you can. Also if answering some of these will result on your being caught in another game, or contradict something you are saying in another game to look town, you can ignore answering some of them for now. Thanks!

-TUF.
Maikuru
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8/18/2013 3:50:46 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 8/18/2013 3:48:16 PM, tulle wrote:
At 8/18/2013 3:46:18 PM, tulle wrote:
So what if a player has nothing to add? They can't log on to DDO until they have something to say that other players won't write off as "fluff"? You said yourself that if a player is posting in other threads but not the game, it's lurking and therefore scummy, AND that if they don't offer anything new, it's fluff and therefore scummy.

Why can't it just be that they have something to say in another thread and nothing new to add in the game?

Forcing people to post just because they're online increases the number of fluff posts from everyone.

... baby.

If a player has recently contributed to the game, they are not lurking. I don't consider lurking to mean you are not posting this very second. I consider lurking to imply some extended period of inactivity. I should have made that clear.
"You assume I wouldn't want to burn this whole place to the ground."
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Irresistable
Posts: 224
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8/18/2013 3:56:15 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 8/18/2013 12:46:42 PM, TUF wrote:

1. What is your stance on lynching "bad" players for purposes of detraction to the game, regardless of their affiliation?

Very stupid indeed. A severe link to game-throwing so to say.

2. What do you consider to be bad town play?

To out being a non pr when the pr hasn't yet been outed. This is a very common mistake noobs make.

3. What do you consider to be a good town play?

Faking being pr as a nilla or vice versa. Role-swapping is f*cking beautiful town play.

4. Should we counter claim someone if our is slightly similar to another role, or should we keep quiet?

Varies form game to game. :)

5. What is your stance on mass claiming?

Only do it late-game, never early game unless it's a special type of game.

6. Why is pushing for character claims important?

It isn't and I find it quite stupid, haha.

7. If someone plays scummily, but claims a powerful role, would you have reserves for lynching them?

Yes I would. A pr is a dangerous loss.
10. What do you think is the most power town role, and why?

The granny or the surgeon. They kill many people in one night just for visiting someone.

11. Do you believe scum tells are objective, or can vary between players?

Subjective.

12. Is lynching always better than no lynching?

Hello no, not on mylo.

13. Is it ever okay to lie as town?

Of course!

14. Is it better to start pressure off randomly, or to target bad/new players?

Random.

15. Should third parties ever live?

How else is a survivor or killer supposed to win? Lol.

16. As mafia is it better to pick off good players, or good roles?

Roles.

17. Should we always trust results if there is no evidence of investigation tampering role?

Evidence can be misleading, always remain sceptical.

18. What do you consider fluff posting?

Anything which doesn't further scumhunting progress.

19. Is fluff posting scummy, if so than why?

Yes, it's anti-town to do because it wastes time and distracts people from the real objective of a day period conversation.

20. Is there a point to character claiming in games with themes the mods made up?

No.

21. Do you think it is harmful to label players as confirmed ?(not considering mod confirmations)

No. If they are confirmed, they are confirmed.

22. Is lynching an inactive player better than no lynching?

No.

23. If a player is online, and not posting, or posting elsewhere, is it safe to assume they are lurking?

Yes.

24. Are there town reasons to lurk?

No.

25. Are OP"s important?

????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????

26. Can reading too much into an OP be harmful?

????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????

27. As third party, is it easier or better to survive with townies, or mafia members?

This depends on which role you are and what the win condition of that role is.

28. As mafia is it more important to look townish, make others look scummy, or to create confusion?

1-3 = Most-least

1. Self-town
2. Confusion
3. Others scum

Okay I know there are a lot of questions here, and I hope this doesn"t overwhelm anyone too much. If it makes it easier, go ahead just answer as much as you can. Also if answering some of these will result on your being caught in another game, or contradict something you are saying in another game to look town, you can ignore answering some of them for now. Thanks!

-TUF.
Maikuru
Posts: 9,112
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8/18/2013 5:30:42 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 8/18/2013 4:12:07 PM, tulle wrote:
@Maikuru---fair enough.

I forgive you.
"You assume I wouldn't want to burn this whole place to the ground."
- lamerde

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Lucky_Luciano
Posts: 4,350
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8/18/2013 6:55:44 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
1. What is your stance on lynching "bad" players for purposes of detraction to the game, regardless of their affiliation?

Policy lynches are always bad for the town and good for the mafia. Just because a player is bad doesn't mean that they aren't a mislynch. I only err towards bad players if we have to lynch between them and a player who could help the town.

2. What do you consider to be bad town play?

Not providing original, logical, thoughts, ignoring the significance of the NP, failure to analyze over-all game congruity.

3. What do you consider to be a good town play?

Providing original, logical, thoughts, min/maxing NP outcomes, analyzing over-all game congruity.

Note: These 3 qualities are what I believe to be universal indicators of good/bad town play, but are not all-encompassing. Of course everybody has good and bad points to their play styles that could go on either side of the list.

4. Should we counter claim someone if our is slightly similar to another role, or should we keep quiet?

If it's a CC, you CC. If it's not a CC, you don't CC. I don't understand the random confusion.

5. What is your stance on mass claiming?

Depends on the game.

6. Why is pushing for character claims important?

I much prefer role claims, but if I push for those early on I get called scum for role fishing, so pushing for character claims is important so I am not lynched DP1 every game.

7. If someone plays scummily, but claims a powerful role, would you have reserves for lynching them?

Circumstances matter.

8. What deduction would you make about a player who contradicts analysis they made in the game, or in previous games?

I don't look at past games. Play styles change. If players contradict themselves in an ongoing game then it depends on the circumstances.

9. Do you thinking mis-lynching can be beneficial to the town?

Depends. If somebody caused the town to automatically lose if he survived to NP1, but he was a townie, I would be all for lynching him.

10. What do you think is the most power town role, and why?

Most town roles can be used extremely effectively insofar as you min/max NP outcomes.

11. Do you believe scum tells are objective, or can vary between players?

I don't keep a list of scum-tells. I wait until somebody gives me a bad vibe and then I analyze their play and decide if they are worth pushing a lynch on.

12. Is lynching always better than no lynching?

No. But why play mafia if you aren't going to lynch people?

13. Is it ever okay to lie as town?

Only if you are me.

14. Is it better to start pressure off randomly, or to target bad/new players?

I say you target the Pros. But then again that will probably get you lynched DP1, so yeah, target newbs! (Don't you love how SOP works on this site!)

15. Should third parties ever live?

Only if I am the third party.

16. As mafia is it better to pick off good players, or good roles?

Circumstances matter.

17. Should we always trust results if there is no evidence of investigation tampering role?

Circumstances matter.

18. What do you consider fluff posting?

When somebody pours this over the DP: http://1.bp.blogspot.com...

19. Is fluff posting scummy, if so than why?

Not inherently, but if the player doesn't provide informative posts as well then yes.

20. Is there a point to character claiming in games with themes the mods made up?

Yes.

21. Do you think it is harmful to label players as confirmed ?(not considering mod confirmations)

No, but on this site players seem to throw around the word 'confirmed' so often that it has become almost meaningless.

22. Is lynching an inactive player better than no lynching?

Replacement plox?

23. If a player is online, and not posting, or posting elsewhere, is it safe to assume they are lurking?

Never trust the online tag, and no it's not. Maybe I'm not in the mood for reading through 400 posts when I have 15 minutes before I have to leave the house.

24. Are there town reasons to lurk?

Sure.

25. Are OP"s important?

If the OP contains important information, then yes. If the OP does not contain important information, then no. What was the question again?

26. Can reading too much into an OP be harmful?

Can reading too much into anything be harmful?

27. As third party, is it easier or better to survive with townies, or mafia members?

Depends on the game. It's usually easier to scum-side because it protects you from the NK and mafia members will gladly support your mislynches. It is also easier to cause chaos (good for the mafia) than it is to create order (good for the town).

28. As mafia is it more important to look townish, make others look scummy, or to create confusion?

Confusion. Mafia is very simple. In the beginning you are in a state of utter chaos. As the game goes on the town attempts to construct a model of the game. The closer this hypothetical model gets to reality, the worse it is for the mafia. Your goal should be to knock out the base of all of these models and to provide your own convoluted theories.
"Age is not important" - Airmax 2014
"Australia... is that a place?" - Airmax 2014
Bullish
Posts: 3,527
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8/18/2013 8:20:35 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
First I'm assuming this is all DDO style, closed setup, themed, character based, role madness type games.

At 8/18/2013 12:46:42 PM, TUF wrote:

1. What is your stance on lynching "bad" players for purposes of detraction to the game, regardless of their affiliation?

I don't see how this question can be asked "regardless of their affiliation". But they are good for policy lynching.

2. What do you consider to be bad town play?

Being unorthodox, unproductive, lying, reckless, etc.

3. What do you consider to be a good town play?

Being productive, tell the truth all the time, being careful, etc.

4. Should we counter claim someone if our is slightly similar to another role, or should we keep quiet?

Don't know.

5. What is your stance on mass claiming?

Not unless it is sure to forces out a short list of Mafia suspects. This basically means never mass claim early on.

6. Why is pushing for character claims important?

I don't think it is.. But I guess roles can duplicate while characters cannot, it's better for CCing.

7. If someone plays scummily, but claims a powerful role, would you have reserves for lynching them?

Yes. Scum should usually claim a weak role that doesn't do much and is hard to verify.

8. What deduction would you make about a player who contradicts analysis they made in the game, or in previous games?

I've never met a contradicting scum. Scum usually have very reserved play.

9. Do you thinking mis-lynching can be beneficial to the town?

Yes. It increases the probability of hitting scum later on, and provides information to go off of (like who protected who and such). And at least they tried to lynch scum.

10. What do you think is the most power town role, and why?

Other than MOAT? Vigilante because of the kill. IC from another perspective.

11. Do you believe scum tells are objective, or can vary between players?

Objective tells include lying, fake claiming, obviously. All others vary, and may even vary from game to game or even DP to DP.

12. Is lynching always better than no lynching?

Yes, other than MYLO. At least there is a probability of lynching scum. How else do they get killed?

13. Is it ever okay to lie as town?

No. LYNCH ALL LIARS best rule ever.

14. Is it better to start pressure off randomly, or to target bad/new players?

This is different from my play style. In my play style, pressure only starts when there are already a lot of posts. Most of these posts are just fluff, but we then go off of the fluff and pressure people. The newbs will get pressured first just because they are easy targets.

15. Should third parties ever live?

I played in a game where we successfully enslaved a TP.

16. As mafia is it better to pick off good players, or good roles?

Roles if Mafia is pro, players if mafia is newb.

17. Should we always trust results if there is no evidence of investigation tampering role?

Yes. Always go off of investigations, and only go into the possibility of Godfather or such when desperate.

18. What do you consider fluff posting?

Yes.

19. Is fluff posting scummy, if so than why?

Depends. Newb scums fluff post because they feel superior because they have information. Pro scum don't post a lot because they are paranoid. Then there are just bad players and such. It's not a big tell.

20. Is there a point to character claiming in games with themes the mods made up?

Yes. The made up themes are still themes with limited roles. They shouldn't duplicate, like having two "Irish gentlemen".

21. Do you think it is harmful to label players as confirmed? (not considering mod confirmations)

Depends on how solid that confirmation is. It's of course necessary to put reads on players. One could blot out a player and consider the setting as a strategy, but it shouldn't be final.

22. Is lynching an inactive player better than no lynching?

If there are no other options, a policy lynch is usually good. It's in the spirit of the game to lynch inactives.

23. If a player is online, and not posting, or posting elsewhere, is it safe to assume they are lurking?

No. Some people are just not that enthusiastic.

24. Are there town reasons to lurk?

Yes. See above.

25. Are OP"s important?

If they contain information..

26. Can reading too much into an OP be harmful?

Beware of bastard and bad mods.

27. As third party, is it easier or better to survive with townies, or mafia members?

One should let the two kill themselves. As TP, I wouldn't recommend "siding" with either faction. But act town, like everyone else, and depending on the role, play like a good or bad town.

28. As mafia is it more important to look townish, make others look scummy, or to create confusion?

I'm a rather conservative players, so I look Town above all else, then dig in to all theories, even the completely wrong ones just to cover my behind.
0x5f3759df
Noumena
Posts: 6,047
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8/19/2013 3:50:29 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
1. What is your stance on lynching "bad" players for purposes of detraction to the game, regardless of their affiliation?

It depends on a lot of things. How well the town is doing at the time, their role, other leads, and exactly *how* it is that they're detracting. We used to do it a lot with players like Badger, headphonegut, and Greyparrot but not so much now it seems. On the whole though I'd say players who aren't adding anything useful to the game + being obstructive can be tossed. How those characteristics are defined/identified though is another matter.

2. What do you consider to be bad town play?

Inactive, not joining/furthering discussion. You could say missing tells or wagoning on mislynching is technically bad play but I usually look at it more from a methodology standpoint than at end results.

3. What do you consider to be a good town play?

Active first of all. Posting reads, adding to discussion, actively putting out analysis of game balance, role function, consistencies/inconsistencies and the like.

4. Should we counter claim someone if our is slightly similar to another role, or should we keep quiet?

There's no textbook way of knowing when to counter claim. For instance, watchers shouldn't CC docs but bodyguards might need to. From the potential CC'ers standpoint, an analysis of the roles already outed should be taken into account at least.

5. What is your stance on mass claiming?

Characters? Sometimes for instance when Dp's are accompanied by short stories (Budda's fear mafia and most of Logic's games) and the characters are unique to the game itself. When the game is based on a well known theme though its a bad idea. Roles? NO NO NO yer scum for asking.

6. Why is pushing for character claims important?

Sets a rule for obstructive townies and mafiosos to let them know that information is key. If we're not willing to lynch uncooperatives then scum have a free pass to stall. Besides, characters on their own are useful in themselves (see above).

7. If someone plays scummily, but claims a powerful role, would you have reserves for lynching them?

Depends on the role (and character and game balance, etc.). Claiming vig is probably enough to let it slide. Claiming JOAT not as much. The level of suspicion prior to the role claim can help to judge the role claim though.

8. What deduction would you make about a player who contradicts analysis they made in the game, or in previous games?

Depends on if his play style ever changes. Of course it depends on the player though. TV and FT are pretty good at keeping things coherent regardless of affiliation.

9. Do you thinking mis-lynching can be beneficial to the town?

At times. Confirming X player as town opens up a new set of relational tells.

10. What do you think is the most power town role, and why?

Lol that's a bit hard.

11. Do you believe scum tells are objective, or can vary between players?

They vary. Royal starting a flame war isn't a tell but I'd venture to say it can be with Drafter. Likewise if Budda or TUF post one-liners without any high level of explanation I would say it's a preliminary tell whereas it's SOP for FT.

12. Is lynching always better than no lynching?

Usually. Beginning of the game: yes. But things get more complicated the closer we get to the endgame.

13. Is it ever okay to lie as town?

Yes. Some roles are specifically crafted to make it necessar to lie for a time. Plus there's a million possible reasons telling the truth can get you killed.

14. Is it better to start pressure off randomly, or to target bad/new players?

Targeting bad players is best IMO. Then new ones then random. I'll look at past games when random pressure was SOP though to see the results.

15. Should third parties ever live?

Depends on whether they win with or ahead of the town.

16. As mafia is it better to pick off good players, or good roles?

Good players > good roles. Lannan as vig is less dangerous than Drafterman as vanilla.

17. Should we always trust results if there is no evidence of investigation tampering role?

I'd say usually. Of course not having evidence of a framer isn't as good as having a watcher on the cop. Positive evidence against > negative evidence for.

18. What do you consider fluff posting?

Useless info. Like welcoming players, non-game related convos, pointing out the obvious, giving advice to newbs, etc. It's not necessarily indicative of fluff but it's easy as hell to conjure.

19. Is fluff posting scummy, if so than why?

Yes because there's a present scum motivation to do so.

20. Is there a point to character claiming in games with themes the mods made up?

Yes if the OP's have clues or mention characters.

21. Do you think it is harmful to label players as confirmed ?(not considering mod confirmations)

Possibly. As mafia that's what yer gunning for but as long as yer applying as much scrutiny as possible to the possibility of non-confirmation that's all you can really do. I'd rather set it up as a hierarchy of lynchables rather than putting a set of players aside as 100% no-no lynches though.

22. Is lynching an inactive player better than no lynching?

I'd say yes. Though the player would preferably be a newb/bad and not chronically inactive (which would be non-indicative of affiliation).

23. If a player is online, and not posting, or posting elsewhere, is it safe to assume they are lurking?

Yes.

24. Are there town reasons to lurk?

Not unless you have a neg utility role like not being able to claim until a later Dp or something.

25. Are OP"s important?

Depends on the game. See below.

26. Can reading too much into an OP be harmful?

Sometimes sure. But with unique themes (Logic, Mestari, Budda's games) it's crucial to pick up the clues left behind.

27. As third party, is it easier or better to survive with townies, or mafia members?

Mafia. Townies will kill any scum role they find. Scum usually have bigger fish to fry with trying to dwindle the town's numbers.

28. As mafia is it more important to look townish, make others look scummy, or to create confusion?

Confusion isn't good usually. Town get desperate and start lynching blindly and you don't want to get the short stick when that happens. Making yerself look townish is most important. At least after that you can make sure yer safe when confusion comes. Setting up scum tells in others comes next. Leading the town (though hopefully subtlety) is most important after securing yerself as town in the town's eye.

Okay I know there are a lot of questions here, and I hope this doesn"t overwhelm anyone too much. If it makes it easier, go ahead just answer as much as you can. Also if answering some of these will result on your being caught in another game, or contradict something you are saying in another game to look town, you can ignore answering some of them for now. Thanks!

-TUF.
: At 5/13/2014 7:05:20 PM, Crescendo wrote:
: The difference is that the gay movement is currently pushing their will on Churches, as shown in the link to gay marriage in Denmark. Meanwhile, the Inquisition ended several centuries ago.
FourTrouble
Posts: 12,771
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8/19/2013 5:07:12 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
I think the CC approach is not very useful in most games on DDO. Without knowledge of the setup or design, there is no way to know if multiple roles of the same kind makes sense. That's why it is better to simply make the argument from a setup perspective rather than blindly lynching someone because of a counter-claim. The main point here is a big part of the way I think scum hunting should be approached.
Maikuru
Posts: 9,112
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8/20/2013 7:00:49 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 8/18/2013 4:12:07 PM, tulle wrote:
@Maikuru---fair enough.

Test post.
"You assume I wouldn't want to burn this whole place to the ground."
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