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WhiteFlag Nightless Chosen Mafia DP3

F-16_Fighting_Falcon
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8/30/2013 9:40:50 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
Dead Players
1 Bull_Diesel - Mafia Goon - Lynched DP1
2 TheAntidoter - Vanilla Townie - Lynched DP2

Active Players
1 Beginner
2 blackhawk1331
3 bladerunner060
4 Bullish
5 drafterman
6 JonMilne
7 Khaos_Mage
8 Logic_on_Rails
9 Noumena
10 TUF
11 Yraelz/FourTrouble

With 11 alive, it takes 6 votes to lynch.

Time Limit: ~96 hours
DP ends 7:40 PM PST 7/4/2013 (Tuesday)
bladerunner060
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8/30/2013 9:54:20 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
@yralz:

really thought he played in a beginner game, but I'm not finding him and the only other game I was mafia, which doesnt make my point. I'm on the iPad right now, so I will look more because wtf. Ill be on my laptop again shprtly; If I can't find it or am wrong ill be vtling him, but then I seriously don't know wtf I was thinking.
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blackhawk1331
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8/30/2013 10:35:11 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
Before we lynch khaos, should we talk some this dp? Look at who else could be scum? Or do we want to just lynch him since there's no np and one dp moves straight into the next? I don't care either way. I've got a case against him that I'm willing to lynch him on. While I can understand where he claims to be coming from in his actions, I don't believe him. His actions came off as scummy to me and I think his being scum is more likely than his misunderstanding why we were lynching diesel over bull considering how many times it was explained before he claimed to understand it. Plus, leads are better to have than better bad players in any game, imo, especially this one. So, I don't really believe that he wanted a better player over leads. I do still believe that he was trying to cover for diesel. So, I want to make it clear now that I am on board with Khaos's lynch this dp (would've been on board last dp if we were pushing then). Before voting, though, I want to know player's thoughts on whether or not we should push through this dp into the next, or take time to talk.

If we're going to talk, I want to talk about LoR. His lack of activity isn't that scummy. That's normal LoR. His wanting to lynch Jon even into dp 2, after we had decided that Jon was likely town, is alarming, though. I don't know that it'd be a reason to lynch in a normal game, but it may be in this game, especially considering how we're doing so far and the significant advantage that we started with.

I also want to discuss drafter. I don't view him as all that scummy. I want to put that on the table right now. However, he hasn't posted much, as has been stated, and that's definitely anti-town in a game like this. Inactivity can lead to stagnation and auto-mislynches. He's not in my lynch pile right now, but he's leaning there and someone that we may want to consider lynching at a later stag in the game unless he becomes more active and helps us more.
Because you said it was a waste, numb nuts. - Drafter

So fvck you. :) - TV

Use prima facie correctly or not at all. - Noumena
blackhawk1331
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8/30/2013 10:40:04 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 8/30/2013 10:35:11 PM, blackhawk1331 wrote:
Before we lynch khaos, should we talk some this dp? Look at who else could be scum? Or do we want to just lynch him since there's no np and one dp moves straight into the next? I don't care either way. I've got a case against him that I'm willing to lynch him on. While I can understand where he claims to be coming from in his actions, I don't believe him. His actions came off as scummy to me and I think his being scum is more likely than his misunderstanding why we were lynching diesel over jon considering how many times it was explained before he claimed to understand it. Plus, leads are better to have than better bad players early in any game, imo, especially this one. So, I don't really believe that he wanted a better player over leads. I do still believe that he was trying to cover for diesel. So, I want to make it clear now that I am on board with Khaos's lynch this dp (would've been on board last dp if we were pushing then). Before voting, though, I want to know player's thoughts on whether or not we should push through this dp into the next, or take time to talk.

If we're going to talk, I want to talk about LoR. His lack of activity isn't that scummy. That's normal LoR. His wanting to lynch Jon even into dp 2, after we had decided that Jon was likely town, is alarming, though. I don't know that it'd be a reason to lynch in a normal game, but it may be in this game, especially considering how we're doing so far and the significant advantage that we started with.

I also want to discuss drafter. I don't view him as all that scummy. I want to put that on the table right now. However, he hasn't posted much, as has been stated, and that's definitely anti-town in a game like this. Inactivity can lead to stagnation and auto-mislynches. He's not in my lynch pile right now, but he's leaning there and someone that we may want to consider lynching at a later stag in the game unless he becomes more active and helps us more.

fixed some
Because you said it was a waste, numb nuts. - Drafter

So fvck you. :) - TV

Use prima facie correctly or not at all. - Noumena
bladerunner060
Posts: 7,126
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8/31/2013 1:15:46 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
Apparently, after checking, the only game I've played with him is the Shades, where I was mafia anyway.

I can see what I was thinking regarding his thinking, but one game is nowhere near enough to refuse to read like that. I have nothing in defense of myself, and probably deserve everyone's FOS. Nonetheless:


VTL Khaos


I've been saying for awhile that I was suspicious of him but making myself not be. He was clearly defending Bull, and his motivations have been at best opaque (in keeping with my general understanding of his play...from one bloody game which is meaningless).

His attempts to defend himself by claiming that gee, shucks, nobody understands his reasoning because it's so strange fall pretty flat; if he were town, I'd expect him to just talk less, then, because he'd know it's not helping (even Beginner's learned that lesson).

I'm actually pretty annoyed with myself over this...I should have put him up last DP. Or, hell, first DP over Jon (the "I think if one is innocent, the other is" line which was, I believe, his very first post). I probably wouldn't have actually, but I'm annoyed enough right now at my reasoning that I'm gonna say I MIGHT have.

The only thing I'll say is that my games are trivial to check, and were I mafia I should have done so before making a claim like "I can't read X because I've played enough games..." Beginner I HAVE played enough games with, and I'm NOT going to say anything but null on him (though, as previously noted, I actually don't have too strong a suspicion on him except that his confirmation plan shouldn't have worked...it did, of course, so clearly what the hell do I know).

I still want to hear more from drafter and logic.
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TUF
Posts: 21,310
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8/31/2013 1:25:55 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
I am going to be re reading the game, before making any further decisions.
"I've got to go and grab a shirt" ~ Airmax1227
JonMilne
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8/31/2013 6:29:15 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
I think something that is particularly useful is to look at the voting records for the past two lynches. Let's first look at the list of people who voted for TA, vanilla townie, in DP2:

Yraelz/FourTrouble
TUF
JonMilne
Beginner
Logic_on_Rails
drafterman
blackhawk1331

Now, let's look at the lynch of Bull_Diesel, mafia goon. Only this time, let's look at the list of people who didn't vote for Bull_Diesel, and pay close attention to some specific names on this list:

Logic_on_Rails
bladerunner060
Yraelz/FourTrouble
TUF
Noumena

Y'know, considering that there are 3 more Mafia goons we have to find, this provides one hell of a lead. I strongly suspect that some if not all of those bolded names are Mafia, since they were willing to lynch TA, but not so willing to lynch Bull.

To me, the most suspicious of the bolded names is Logic. He kept pushing for my lynch even after it had been quite clearly established that the grounds for such a lynch were completely irrational and really did not stand up to considered analysis. VTL Logic. I think these 3 above bolded names should be our primary targets, and if any one of them flips town, then we should also turn our attention to Bladerunner and Noumena since they too didn't vote for Bull_Diesel.
blackhawk1331
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8/31/2013 6:32:21 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
Since I brought up drafter's innactivity as concerning, I realized that it was necessary to add that drafter is out of town for or something for 36 hours since sometime yesterday. You can check the beginner game for his post stating that. I think it was page two.

Now, after khaos, does anyone have any leads? All I've got to go on after khaos for deciding lynches is activity really. Khaos is my last scum read. I'll be honest, TA's lack of activity was a big reason I hammered. It's more harmful to the town in this game than normal games because of the nature of the game. (I also hammered because I trusted TUF that that was TA's normal mafia behavior. didn't have time to check myself) Anyway, we should decide an answer now to this: If we run out of scum reads, should we, at this point in the game, pressure and/or lynch based on activity levels? I'm open to discusion on this, and if people have better ideas, please do share.
Because you said it was a waste, numb nuts. - Drafter

So fvck you. :) - TV

Use prima facie correctly or not at all. - Noumena
JonMilne
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8/31/2013 6:37:30 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 8/31/2013 6:32:21 AM, blackhawk1331 wrote:
Since I brought up drafter's innactivity as concerning, I realized that it was necessary to add that drafter is out of town for or something for 36 hours since sometime yesterday. You can check the beginner game for his post stating that. I think it was page two.

Now, after khaos, does anyone have any leads? All I've got to go on after khaos for deciding lynches is activity really. Khaos is my last scum read. I'll be honest, TA's lack of activity was a big reason I hammered. It's more harmful to the town in this game than normal games because of the nature of the game. (I also hammered because I trusted TUF that that was TA's normal mafia behavior. didn't have time to check myself) Anyway, we should decide an answer now to this: If we run out of scum reads, should we, at this point in the game, pressure and/or lynch based on activity levels? I'm open to discusion on this, and if people have better ideas, please do share.

How about this for a lead?

At 8/31/2013 6:29:15 AM, JonMilne wrote:
I think something that is particularly useful is to look at the voting records for the past two lynches. Let's first look at the list of people who voted for TA, vanilla townie, in DP2:

Yraelz/FourTrouble
TUF
JonMilne
Beginner
Logic_on_Rails
drafterman
blackhawk1331

Now, let's look at the lynch of Bull_Diesel, mafia goon. Only this time, let's look at the list of people who didn't vote for Bull_Diesel, and pay close attention to some specific names on this list:

Logic_on_Rails
bladerunner060
Yraelz/FourTrouble
TUF
Noumena

Y'know, considering that there are 3 more Mafia goons we have to find, this provides one hell of a lead. I strongly suspect that some if not all of those bolded names are Mafia, since they were willing to lynch TA, but not so willing to lynch Bull.

To me, the most suspicious of the bolded names is Logic. He kept pushing for my lynch even after it had been quite clearly established that the grounds for such a lynch were completely irrational and really did not stand up to considered analysis. VTL Logic. I think these 3 above bolded names should be our primary targets, and if any one of them flips town, then we should also turn our attention to Bladerunner and Noumena since they too didn't vote for Bull_Diesel.
blackhawk1331
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8/31/2013 6:58:58 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
Jon, that is a pretty decent idea, but there are some flaws. 1) I believe that FT started the push against diesel and only unvoted to utilize remaining time for discussion, so he's off that list. 2) Noumena's behavior has seemed fairly town, and I'm not willing to lynch him at this time, so he's off, in my mind. 3) I'm not sure why blade didn't, so I'll have to go back and look, but he's been active and hasn't come off as very scummy to me, so I'm not confortable with his lynch. 4) TUF has been coming off as town to me, and he is active, so I don't want to lynch him either. 5) LoR I agree with. Not because he voted for TA and not diesel so much as the fact that he pushed you so long and has been innactive. While it's his normal behavior, it hurts in this game.

This all being said, I feel khaos is our best bet today. I think we should look into LoR and other innactives next dp, or just consider them for our lynches in future dps (but talk about this one).
Because you said it was a waste, numb nuts. - Drafter

So fvck you. :) - TV

Use prima facie correctly or not at all. - Noumena
JonMilne
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8/31/2013 7:16:22 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 8/31/2013 6:58:58 AM, blackhawk1331 wrote:
Jon, that is a pretty decent idea, but there are some flaws. 1) I believe that FT started the push against diesel and only unvoted to utilize remaining time for discussion, so he's off that list. 2) Noumena's behavior has seemed fairly town, and I'm not willing to lynch him at this time, so he's off, in my mind. 3) I'm not sure why blade didn't, so I'll have to go back and look, but he's been active and hasn't come off as very scummy to me, so I'm not confortable with his lynch. 4) TUF has been coming off as town to me, and he is active, so I don't want to lynch him either. 5) LoR I agree with. Not because he voted for TA and not diesel so much as the fact that he pushed you so long and has been innactive. While it's his normal behavior, it hurts in this game.

This all being said, I feel khaos is our best bet today. I think we should look into LoR and other innactives next dp, or just consider them for our lynches in future dps (but talk about this one).

I think we should start with Logic. If Logic flips scum, I think it would make the people who appear on both of my lists look even more suspicious.
FourTrouble
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8/31/2013 10:57:10 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
I'm pretty sure I'd like to lynch both Khaos and Logic, regardless of how either flips. The issue will be who we lynch after them, if either (or both) of them isn't scum.

I think the people NOT voting (or not wanting to vote) TA are more likely to be scum than those voting him. It largely depends on context, however, and I definitely expect at least 1 scum on that lynch.

Yraelz should be looking into drafter's meta at some point but that certainly doesn't change the fact that his vote on Bull was opportunistic (unvoting Jon early on D1 but not voting for Bull until it was self-evident that Bull would be lynched). His lack of activity is also a major problem. I haven't been too worried since I know we don't have to lynch ALL the mafia but this is something to keep in mind.
FourTrouble
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8/31/2013 11:00:07 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 8/31/2013 1:15:46 AM, bladerunner060 wrote:
I can see what I was thinking regarding his thinking, but one game is nowhere near enough to refuse to read like that. I have nothing in defense of myself, and probably deserve everyone's FOS.

Why do you deserve our FOS? You think your own behavior is scummy?

The only thing I'll say is that my games are trivial to check, and were I mafia I should have done so before making a claim like "I can't read X because I've played enough games..." Beginner I HAVE played enough games with, and I'm NOT going to say anything but null on him (though, as previously noted, I actually don't have too strong a suspicion on him except that his confirmation plan shouldn't have worked...it did, of course, so clearly what the hell do I know).

I have no idea what you're talking about here. Walk me through your thought process.
Khaos_Mage
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8/31/2013 11:45:26 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 8/31/2013 6:29:15 AM, JonMilne wrote:

Now, let's look at the lynch of Bull_Diesel, mafia goon. Only this time, let's look at the list of people who didn't vote for Bull_Diesel, and pay close attention to some specific names on this list:

Logic_on_Rails
bladerunner060
Yraelz/FourTrouble
TUF
Noumena


To me, the most suspicious of the bolded names is Logic. He kept pushing for my lynch even after it had been quite clearly established that the grounds for such a lynch were completely irrational and really did not stand up to considered analysis. VTL Logic. I think these 3 above bolded names should be our primary targets, and if any one of them flips town, then we should also turn our attention to Bladerunner and Noumena since they too didn't vote for Bull_Diesel.

Logic specifically called his vote on you a placeholder vote. I think he had no other leads to go on, so he kept his vote from DP1. He even admitted you weren't being lynched DP2.

TUF replaced Daytona, and was literally catching up when the final votes were cast on Bull. This is hardly evidence of his guilt using your logic.

I don't think either of them are scum for the reasons you give, and I don't think either are scum on their own merits.
My work here is, finally, done.
Khaos_Mage
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8/31/2013 11:51:08 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 8/31/2013 10:57:10 AM, FourTrouble wrote:
I'm pretty sure I'd like to lynch both Khaos and Logic, regardless of how either flips. The issue will be who we lynch after them, if either (or both) of them isn't scum.

I think the people NOT voting (or not wanting to vote) TA are more likely to be scum than those voting him. It largely depends on context, however, and I definitely expect at least 1 scum on that lynch.

So, with three scum left, and AT LEAST one scum on the wagon, I don't understand how you can say there are more likely scum for not voting. That seems like an odd statement.
But, I am sure you are referring to me anyway.

Also, in my recent experience with TA, he has been distant and erratic. He was in Shadows. However, in WWE as scum, he was more active than he was here.
But, I know, this is contrived... or is it convienent?

Oh, and did you ever want to comment on the probability that I would buddy a faltering scummate DP1? Everyone knows that is a no-no, yet for some reason, it is the most probable scenario to you. Why?
My work here is, finally, done.
F-16_Fighting_Falcon
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8/31/2013 12:57:30 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
Vote Count

Khaos_Mage - 3/7 - Yraelz/FourTrouble bladerunner060 Bullish
Logic_on_Rails - 1/7 - JonMilne
Beginner - 1/7 - Khaos_Mage

Not Voting (6): TUF Logic_on_Rails drafterman blackhawk1331 Beginner Noumena
F-16_Fighting_Falcon
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8/31/2013 12:58:14 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
Vote Count

Khaos_Mage - 3/6 - Yraelz/FourTrouble bladerunner060 Bullish
Logic_on_Rails - 1/6 - JonMilne
Beginner - 1/6 - Khaos_Mage

Not Voting (6): TUF Logic_on_Rails drafterman blackhawk1331 Beginner Noumena
blackhawk1331
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8/31/2013 4:14:48 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 8/31/2013 7:16:22 AM, JonMilne wrote:
I think we should start with Logic. If Logic flips scum, I think it would make the people who appear on both of my lists look even more suspicious.

That makes no sense. Wasn't LoR on the list of people who vtl'd TA but not diesel? Why would it make people who voted for both look scummy if he flipped scum? Maybe I'm just misunderstanding what you said.
Because you said it was a waste, numb nuts. - Drafter

So fvck you. :) - TV

Use prima facie correctly or not at all. - Noumena
blackhawk1331
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8/31/2013 4:16:57 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 8/31/2013 10:57:10 AM, FourTrouble wrote:
I think the people NOT voting (or not wanting to vote) TA are more likely to be scum than those voting him. It largely depends on context, however, and I definitely expect at least 1 scum on that lynch.

Why? He was town and a member of the mafia had been lynched dp 1. Wouldn'tit make sense for them to jump on any chance they could to chalk up a mislynch?
Because you said it was a waste, numb nuts. - Drafter

So fvck you. :) - TV

Use prima facie correctly or not at all. - Noumena
FourTrouble
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8/31/2013 4:31:23 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 8/31/2013 4:16:57 PM, blackhawk1331 wrote:
At 8/31/2013 10:57:10 AM, FourTrouble wrote:
I think the people NOT voting (or not wanting to vote) TA are more likely to be scum than those voting him. It largely depends on context, however, and I definitely expect at least 1 scum on that lynch.

Why? He was town and a member of the mafia had been lynched dp 1. Wouldn'tit make sense for them to jump on any chance they could to chalk up a mislynch?

TA's lynch should have been the easiest thing ever. The idea that a townie wouldn't suspect him, and wouldn't want to lynch him, is hard to believe. It's possible, so of course some of the people not voting TA are town, but for the most part, you gotta figure that one of the MAJOR reasons someone wouldn't suspect TA or wouldn't want TA dead is because they ALREADY KNOW HE'S TOWN.

I have to reread D2 more carefully, and D1 as well, as it's been a while since I've given some serious though to this game, but I'll definitely get to that once we lynch Khaos/Logic (both of whom I strongly believe are scum).
blackhawk1331
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8/31/2013 4:48:07 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 8/31/2013 4:31:23 PM, FourTrouble wrote:
TA's lynch should have been the easiest thing ever. The idea that a townie wouldn't suspect him, and wouldn't want to lynch him, is hard to believe. It's possible, so of course some of the people not voting TA are town, but for the most part, you gotta figure that one of the MAJOR reasons someone wouldn't suspect TA or wouldn't want TA dead is because they ALREADY KNOW HE'S TOWN.

I have to reread D2 more carefully, and D1 as well, as it's been a while since I've given some serious though to this game, but I'll definitely get to that once we lynch Khaos/Logic (both of whom I strongly believe are scum).

I agree. That's what has me confused. Even knowing that he's town, the mafia could still see other townies vtl'ing him, and just jump on with their reasoning. I don't get why they wouldn't. What you're saying makes sense, but at the same time it doesn't. I get that the mafia know that he's town and that's a reason why they wouldn't fallow the suspicion. I don't get why they wouldn't just agree with townies, though. Why would they care whether or not it seemed all that scummy to them? They could pretend. I disagree with the townie not thinking he was scummy part, though. I don't find it all that hard to believe. I know that personally, I just thought that his lack of activity was scummy, and that extends to LoR and drafter. From my limited experience with him, I thought that his behavior seemed like his normal town behavior. I hammered because TUF cited two games where he was mafia and behaved the same. I took TUF's word on that, as I said, because the dp would have ended in a guaranteed mislynch if I took the time to read those two past games. Assuming the same level of experience with TA, I don't see why another townie couldn't have had the same thought process as me.
Because you said it was a waste, numb nuts. - Drafter

So fvck you. :) - TV

Use prima facie correctly or not at all. - Noumena
bladerunner060
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8/31/2013 4:56:40 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 8/31/2013 11:00:07 AM, FourTrouble wrote:
At 8/31/2013 1:15:46 AM, bladerunner060 wrote:
I can see what I was thinking regarding his thinking, but one game is nowhere near enough to refuse to read like that. I have nothing in defense of myself, and probably deserve everyone's FOS.

Why do you deserve our FOS? You think your own behavior is scummy?

Refusing to read someone whose behavior has appeared mafia should get me suspected, I'd think, without having a good reason. I had a good reason, however, it was bullsh*t, apparently. If my reason was bullsh*t, I'd expect folks to have to decide whether I really did err, or my original reason was always bullsh*t, and I just got called on it (Yraelz asked me last game to give an example game where I read Khaos as mafia, and that's when I actually looked through my old games and realized I was apparently full of crap).

The only thing I'll say is that my games are trivial to check, and were I mafia I should have done so before making a claim like "I can't read X because I've played enough games..." Beginner I HAVE played enough games with, and I'm NOT going to say anything but null on him (though, as previously noted, I actually don't have too strong a suspicion on him except that his confirmation plan shouldn't have worked...it did, of course, so clearly what the hell do I know).

I have no idea what you're talking about here. Walk me through your thought process.

I'm saying that this was a stupid mistake on my part. I can't defend it on any grounds, other than that if I were mafia this would still have been a bad plan. I don't have that many games under my belt, and they're all recent, so checking a claim I make about previous games is a trivial matter. Of course, such "well, regardless of his affiliation, it was stupid" reasoning was what led me to vote Jon in DP1.

I have played multiple games with beginner. And I usually suspect him as being mafia (he was on my list I think every time in drafter's beginner games). I knew I'd played with khaos less, but I believed I'd played several games with him and that I'd thought he was mafia both times in the same way I can never understand wth beginner is doing. It's why I read them both null, because in my brain they were both people whose behavior I just don't "get", regardless of their affiliation. Regarding beginner, I don't really suspect him, except that his plan of asking "what's your biggest weapon" really shouldn't have been effective, and would have helped mafia confirm themselves if people hadn't realized it was in the startup thread (and my parenthetical noted that, despite that it shouldn't have been effective, it worked, so what the hell do I know).
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Beginner
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8/31/2013 5:05:34 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
Khaos, you should already know by now that your case against me is founded on reasoning that the majority of the town populace is not accepting (and won't any time soon). It's a weak case; a weak line of conjectures. You know you aren't going to get me lynched with it. At this point, you're not even pushing my lynch. All you're doing is voting me. What is your purpose?
Here's what I see: while the vote serves no purpose in terms of actual lynching, it does successfully exploit the 'Khaos is making his usual bad town play, he must be town' line of reasoning that has been getting you town read for quite a few games now. It does, does it not? Otherwise, I can think of no explanation for your stubbornly maintaining the vote on me; a vote based on debunked reasoning. You know you aren't going to achieve my lynch. You aren't even aggressively pushing it (you don't really think I'm scum).
In light of the general town consensus against your pushing to lynch me based on reasoning the town won't accept, why are you still pushing my lynch with it? If you truly think I'm scum, and truly believe your FOS's basis with conviction, you should be looking through other venues to get me lynched. Your continuing to vote me for death while knowing that the reasoning provided for it will not be accepted is a very strong indication of your not really believing me to be scum. Why are you voting me?
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FourTrouble
Posts: 12,777
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8/31/2013 5:06:20 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 8/31/2013 4:48:07 PM, blackhawk1331 wrote:
At 8/31/2013 4:31:23 PM, FourTrouble wrote:
TA's lynch should have been the easiest thing ever. The idea that a townie wouldn't suspect him, and wouldn't want to lynch him, is hard to believe. It's possible, so of course some of the people not voting TA are town, but for the most part, you gotta figure that one of the MAJOR reasons someone wouldn't suspect TA or wouldn't want TA dead is because they ALREADY KNOW HE'S TOWN.

I have to reread D2 more carefully, and D1 as well, as it's been a while since I've given some serious though to this game, but I'll definitely get to that once we lynch Khaos/Logic (both of whom I strongly believe are scum).

I agree. That's what has me confused. Even knowing that he's town, the mafia could still see other townies vtl'ing him, and just jump on with their reasoning. I don't get why they wouldn't. What you're saying makes sense, but at the same time it doesn't. I get that the mafia know that he's town and that's a reason why they wouldn't fallow the suspicion. I don't get why they wouldn't just agree with townies, though. Why would they care whether or not it seemed all that scummy to them? They could pretend. I disagree with the townie not thinking he was scummy part, though. I don't find it all that hard to believe. I know that personally, I just thought that his lack of activity was scummy, and that extends to LoR and drafter. From my limited experience with him, I thought that his behavior seemed like his normal town behavior. I hammered because TUF cited two games where he was mafia and behaved the same. I took TUF's word on that, as I said, because the dp would have ended in a guaranteed mislynch if I took the time to read those two past games. Assuming the same level of experience with TA, I don't see why another townie couldn't have had the same thought process as me.

I'm not talking about what townies think. I'm talking about the way mafia thinks. They KNOW that TA is innocent, so even if other townies think TA is guilty, they're still predisposed to read TA as town.
FourTrouble
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8/31/2013 5:14:51 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 8/31/2013 4:56:40 PM, bladerunner060 wrote:
At 8/31/2013 11:00:07 AM, FourTrouble wrote:
At 8/31/2013 1:15:46 AM, bladerunner060 wrote:
I can see what I was thinking regarding his thinking, but one game is nowhere near enough to refuse to read like that. I have nothing in defense of myself, and probably deserve everyone's FOS.

Why do you deserve our FOS? You think your own behavior is scummy?

Refusing to read someone whose behavior has appeared mafia should get me suspected, I'd think, without having a good reason. I had a good reason, however, it was bullsh*t, apparently. If my reason was bullsh*t, I'd expect folks to have to decide whether I really did err, or my original reason was always bullsh*t, and I just got called on it (Yraelz asked me last game to give an example game where I read Khaos as mafia, and that's when I actually looked through my old games and realized I was apparently full of crap).

I don't quite follow what you're saying. You didn't vote on Khaos because you always read him as mafia, but then you realized you've only played 1 game with him, and in that game, you were mafia, making your read null. Why would any of that make someone vote for you? I don't get what you're self-conscious about. If your thought process was genuine, what is there to worry about?

The only thing I'll say is that my games are trivial to check, and were I mafia I should have done so before making a claim like "I can't read X because I've played enough games..." Beginner I HAVE played enough games with, and I'm NOT going to say anything but null on him (though, as previously noted, I actually don't have too strong a suspicion on him except that his confirmation plan shouldn't have worked...it did, of course, so clearly what the hell do I know).

I have no idea what you're talking about here. Walk me through your thought process.

I'm saying that this was a stupid mistake on my part. I can't defend it on any grounds, other than that if I were mafia this would still have been a bad plan. I don't have that many games under my belt, and they're all recent, so checking a claim I make about previous games is a trivial matter. Of course, such "well, regardless of his affiliation, it was stupid" reasoning was what led me to vote Jon in DP1.

Why are you defending yourself from something that you're not even being attacked for? Has anyone called you scum for your Khaos-misunderstanding issue?

I have played multiple games with beginner. And I usually suspect him as being mafia (he was on my list I think every time in drafter's beginner games). I knew I'd played with khaos less, but I believed I'd played several games with him and that I'd thought he was mafia both times in the same way I can never understand wth beginner is doing. It's why I read them both null, because in my brain they were both people whose behavior I just don't "get", regardless of their affiliation. Regarding beginner, I don't really suspect him, except that his plan of asking "what's your biggest weapon" really shouldn't have been effective, and would have helped mafia confirm themselves if people hadn't realized it was in the startup thread (and my parenthetical noted that, despite that it shouldn't have been effective, it worked, so what the hell do I know).

If you're town, are you just going to give up just because you have had bad success reading people in the past? The whole point is to improve, to start seeing details you used to miss, and eventually be able to differentiate their town behavior from their scum behavior. I don't understand that posture, especially from someone like you, someone who seems to put significant effort into the game, has a good head on their shoulders, and seems to want to improve. You didn't even want to join regular games until you felt ready for them. That's the sign of someone struggling to get better, not someone giving up.

Also, even if you're reads are always wrong, it doesn't matter. What matters is that, by trying to figure the game out, we get to see how you're thinking about the game. How are we supposed to know if you're town or not if you aren't trying to figure things out?
Khaos_Mage
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8/31/2013 5:16:33 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 8/31/2013 5:05:34 PM, Beginner wrote:
Khaos, you should already know by now that your case against me is founded on reasoning that the majority of the town populace is not accepting (and won't any time soon). It's a weak case; a weak line of conjectures.

So is the case against me. It is all "too convienent" that I buddied Bull and now didn't want to lynch TA.

You know you aren't going to get me lynched with it. At this point, you're not even pushing my lynch. All you're doing is voting me. What is your purpose?
Here's what I see: while the vote serves no purpose in terms of actual lynching, it does successfully exploit the 'Khaos is making his usual bad town play, he must be town' line of reasoning that has been getting you town read for quite a few games now. It does, does it not? Otherwise, I can think of no explanation for your stubbornly maintaining the vote on me; a vote based on debunked reasoning. You know you aren't going to achieve my lynch. You aren't even aggressively pushing it (you don't really think I'm scum).
In light of the general town consensus against your pushing to lynch me based on reasoning the town won't accept, why are you still pushing my lynch with it? If you truly think I'm scum, and truly believe your FOS's basis with conviction, you should be looking through other venues to get me lynched. Your continuing to vote me for death while knowing that the reasoning provided for it will not be accepted is a very strong indication of your not really believing me to be scum. Why are you voting me?

Because I am laying low, and you are still my only lead.
If you haven't noticed, I've only come up in DP2 to defend myself and address questions about your lynch. I am still licking my wounds, and I know I'm not going to convince anybody anytime soon.

I am reading the DP, and if a better lead comes up, then I will jump on it, but so far it hasn't. I don't agree with the other wagons people are trying to start, and I have nothing to offer as evidence for anyone I may be suspicious of, except for you. If I had better evidence, I would have presented it. It doesn't help you left DP2 and rage-quit DP1 for my line of attack.
My work here is, finally, done.
Beginner
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8/31/2013 5:16:54 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 8/31/2013 4:56:40 PM, bladerunner060 wrote:
Regarding beginner, I don't really suspect him, except that his plan of asking "what's your biggest weapon" really shouldn't have been effective, and would have helped mafia confirm themselves if people hadn't realized it was in the startup thread (and my parenthetical noted that, despite that it shouldn't have been effective, it worked, so what the hell do I know).

Blade, let me ask you this: did you know that the role PM's were in the startup thread prior to my asking about the Biggest Weapons thing? If you did, why did you not point this out earlier? Consider these questions. Now: Barring my meta behavior, why do both you think that it is a viable reason to FOS me?

The most probable fact is that most, if not all, of the players at that point in time did not have know about it at all. I know I didn't (the basis on which I founded this conjecture).

Question is, did you? <---Question to all townies
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