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The Shades of Our Lives Endgame

Logic_on_rails
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8/31/2013 11:30:21 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
In a rather dull end, the Town win easily.

1st " Town
2nd " Mafia

Do look at the roles below... there"s quite a few choice modnotes. Also, the brackets with text in italics list what Lucky"s role would have found.

Mafia

Jon - Heroic Horatio " (The Perfect Man) You are a man so brilliant it is near impossible to forget you in all your glory, virtues and good character. No one could ever claim you to do wrong, so you are the Godfather . In this same good faith people trust you " you are the double voter. You win with the Mafia.

TUF (deceased) - Heinrich Valdern " (The Cliched Evil Villain) Aren"t you the daring villain? Good at killing, charismatic except when angry, has utterly loyal supporters, clinically insane yet somehow suave and stylish; the list goes on. You are the framer / lawyer / roleblocker " choose 1 of these actions each night. You are also the suicidal slayer. One night, if you perform the kill, you may be the suicidal slayer. If the kill were to go through, your target, yourself, and everybody who visited the target will die. You win with the Mafia.

Bladerunner - Esmerelda - (A Vision of Beauty)"It was but the faintest glimpse, but what I saw was a lady who's beauty and nobility captured me forever. I spent my whole life chasing this lady, but it was as if she was a vision, for I never saw her again. What I would have done to see her again." - The words of a noble gentleman.

My fair lady, one might say that you are the elusive Questing Beast " your beauty, your charm, your intelligence... you are that vision of a perfect lady; let us forget for a moment that there are differences in preference in a lady. Your beauty, your nobility, your elegance... one can not fail to respect, adore and cherish who you are. You are also fragile though; what bonds you and those who cherish you make are unbreakable, and long quests to reunite are made. Once a night you may visit somebody and create a bond. You may open a PM with this bond or be elusive and not open a PM (though I will publicise this event in the OPs in the latter case) . Upon the death of you or anyone with a bond to you, you and everyone you have a bond to will die. You win with the Mafia.

Town

F-16 / Daytona - Madoc " (A man with many regrets, forever mulling...)"Once in my life, all that I sought was entry back into the Summer Country [I quote]. But I chose poorly, in so many things, and eventually the reasons that I wanted that so badly were forgotten. Only the idea of the prize remained. And then, when I lost it, and everything else, I started to remember. Then, miraculously, I was given a second chance " and I took it. And now, now that I truly understand what I have, I"m hard-pressed to ever give it up again."

You have gone through a great deal in your life. You could act, but do not. You are the saviour " every night you will be informed of who is to die and what their role is. You may give up your life to save theirs. You win with the town.

TA - Lord Anomander Rake " (The Complex Man) Inscrutable? At first glance, perhaps. You are certainly a complex man. You"ve seen people withdraw into themselves, away from the world. Is it that they were always hollow or that they lived too long? You have fought for something for so long, and you maintain your loyalty to that cause, but do others care? Even when they fade you fight. Be it against the wind or overwhelming odds, you try. You are complex and brilliant. You are the investigative JOAT. You may act as a tracker, watcher or cop any night you wish, though you may only act twice in the game. You win with the town.

Blackhawk - Maximillion Wilters" (A Man of Dual Thoughts, of Duality)"A few times in my life I"ve had moments of absolute clarity. When for a few brief seconds the silence drowns out the noise and I can feel rather than think, and things seem so sharp and the world seems so fresh. It"s as though it had all just come into existence.

I can never make these moments last. I cling to them, but like everything, they fade. I have lived my life on these moments. They pull me back to the present, and I realize that everything is exactly the way it was meant to be
."

At times we have the clearest of thoughts. We are lucid, alive and sharp. At times we are bitter, detached and sullen; so it is with you. Every odd night you are the cop, every DP following an even NP you are the hated townie. You win with the town.

Blackhawk (formerly NightofTheLivingCats) - Walter Poe" (The Speech Deliverer) Words have a great power over us; you have a skill with words. However, even the best speech writers and delivers err. Each night you will receive 2 (short) speeches. You will choose which one to "deliver" and 2 people to deliver it to. You must choose a speech to deliver. The better speech will galvanise them into following you " you control their votes for the following DP. The worse speech will render you voteless the following day. 3 poor speech choices* will render you permanently voteless. You win with the town.

*Yes, there is an element of subjectivity to this, yet I think my judgements are well grounded for reasons I'm not elaborating on now. Deal with it.

Bull - Arthur Scott " (The Good Man) "Take it from one who knows. Your life will be what you make of it, and you draw to yourself that which you truly believe in." So said a man who had acquired a measure of wisdom. But you are not that man.

You have good intentions, perhaps some alright ideas. But... you"re never acting upon them, never taking the lead. You fade into the crowd of people, and we all forget what you might have been. However, you"ll remember what happened to you " you are the self-watcher, and will see who visits you each night. You win with the town.

Blackhawk (formerly Lannan) - Jim Smith" (The Stuttering Fool) I have an idea. Well, you see... no, er... Well...

Dear me, is that incompetence? Do you actually do anything? Do you actually have an idea? Tough to tell, although the negative is more likely. But, I"ll give you the benefit of the doubt. Once this game you may "convey" an idea to another " open a PM with them for the rest of the game. You win with the town.

Modnote: Role disables target until his own death

Khaos Mage - Nairod Yarg " (A Wretched, Immoral Hedonist) Raped a young lady last week, killed her husband in the act. You"re not very ethical and morally upright... nor smart. You take what the heck you want through force. Wine, wealth and women! And, maybe land. However, you"re bound to get caught in due time. You"re the one shot murderer (read: vigilante). You win with the town.

IFLY - Diane Wells " (Useless Enthusiasm) Come on, let"s go! Come on, let"s cheer! Hey, didn"t you hear about Bobby? No? Come on, let"s go!

People keep living life so slowly. Let"s liven it up " see new movies, listen to that pop music, hang out with friends... You are the motivator. Target 1 person a night and have their role be used twice. You must submit your action within 12 hours of night"s start. You win with the town.

Modnote: Role is useless.

FT - The traveller " (The Lone Wolf) It"s a cold night and you come across a fellow traveller. You talk about a fire, eat and go tell tales of past adventures. Quintessential camaraderie some would say.

Well, you could take his help, his food, his shelter... all shared of course. Each night you may visit another. Should you do so you will roleblock them yet protect yourself in the process. You win with the town.

Continued...
"Tis not in mortals to command success
But we"ll do more, Sempronius, we"ll deserve it
Logic_on_rails
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8/31/2013 11:46:31 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
Lucky - The young child - You are that child of dreams. You"re dutiful and respectful, yet bold and smart, able to talk wisely, athletic, ready to lend a hand, elegant as a young lady, proper as a young man. That child of dreams is... hard to pin down " the aforementioned need not even be true I suppose. Suffice to say, you are that child of dreams. As part of your dutiful life you perceive things. You are the perceiver of traits. Every night you can visit somebody and figure out what describes them. By this I mean something similar to "You are that child of dreams" . You are also the miller. You win with the town.

Jon Milne - Iso Tripes- (Vain Arrogance) "I have never found boasting to be such a terrible thing. If you can back up what you say then you are entitled to say it. What I detest " I do not use the word lightly " is boasting without a leg to stand on. That is something I can not stand." " Logic

For some reason this vain hubris, this callous arrogance is supported at times. So, you"re the popular townie. Of course, being unable to actually withstand any sort of scrutiny... you will die if you are ever visited by 4 people in any single night. You win with the town.

Beginner - Greenaet C. Pioym - (The myopic teenager) Wow, don"t you love that Ferrari? What? You say I can"t get it. Course I can! How? Well... Go study for an exam? You crazy? Go and cook dinner? Why the heck would I do that!?

You"re not just so often useless, you're actually a hindrance to others. You are the reflexive roleblocker. You win with the town.

Modding

Well, I"m fairly happy with how this game went on the whole, modding wise. The only mistake was that Blackhawk"s PM had a tiny error " it should have said hated on even DPs. But, overall, this was fairly easy modding. Probably because the game had no real controversy.

Game Balance / Genesis

This game to a long time to come up with. I was drawn to 2 ideas " the shades represent fiction and real people (what I ended up doing) , or the shades all represent aspects of (perhaps only 1 person) people. This game demarcated between the town and Mafia in a way that the Mafia didn"t know " Lucky could well have been a piercing cop. Lucky was the only person to recognise this division all game.

This game"s basic idea was that the town had very few abilities. A very understated game for me! The Mafia were low in numbers and had most of it"s power in suicidal roles. I actually designed this game to be slightly town-sided following a series of Mafia wins in my games.The biggest issue in game design was whether Blade"s role should die if a bond was killed. I agonised over it. Despite the town"s easy victory, I think this game was very well balanced. 2 of the Mafia"s roles were counteracted by town counterparts. The Young Child could pierce Horatio"s innocence, Blade was countered by Madoc. Mafia were also given minimal assistance this game.

Mafia had some really bad luck and made some mistakes. Solid, even game balance though.

The Game Itself

Neither side deserved this win. This game lacked real energy and good analysis.

DP 1 was very dull. About the only person who impressed me was Lucky, who immediately picked up on the game"s theme. Mafia are MIA, except for TUF who plays well. He had most of the town fooled... except for the townie with a kill. No OP analysis, no name analysis, no mod psychology... dull. Beginner"s name was an anagram for "Myopic teenager" , Khaos" name was even more obvious " it reads Dorian Gray when read backwards. Iso Tripes is even more obvious " I So Tripe (I added an "s" for confusion) " could have foreshadowed Jon's role partially. The OP had Arthur as James, Madoc was the figure who ran into the burning house. Anyhow... to NP 1.

NP 1 was a disaster for the Mafia. Mafia kill Jon"s first role which was a good early game target. Furthermore, Esmerelda bonds with Madoc... worst possible decision! Add to that, the intended scum looking 1 shot vigilante shoots dead the Mafia JOAT. TUF is unable to stop the kill with JOAT powers because Lannan, thinking TUF town messaged him, permanently rendering TUF"s role useless. Ie. No roleblock. NP 1 was an unmitigated disaster, nearly a worst case scenario, for the Mafia. Glimmers of hope like FT roleblocking TA were nulled by TA"s prudent non-action. Blackhawk"s investigation of F-16 was anti-town (for F-16 was likely to die) , but still... a disaster.

Of course, at this point I had to have the Mafia entirely replace in! There"s a reason you all had severe difficulty finding scum tells! Lucky gets lynched. Lucky again was pretty sharp " picking out Jon as Mafia etc. FT does well to chide those on the Lucky lynch and attack Bladerunner. Good job by FT. This game, the best analysis came from the townies mislynched... Jon"s claim was interesting. I may well use his fake claim as a real role in the future. Very interesting claim. Bladerunner should have claimed something like "over-eager bonding role" OR (had TUF not declared Blade"s message public) doctor with no PMs but OP allusions. Mafia claims unfortunately prevented me from writing interesting stories...

NP 2 and the NP 1 link with F-16 results in Blade"s death. I was so tempted to intervene at this point as my game fell aprt... Both of the Mafia"s multiple kill roles result in a total of 1 additional death. Pathetic Horrid bad luck, plus Khaos" smart kill, and the Mafia are basically sunk by now. It was rather funny that TA investigated F-16. Essentially, no cop results on non-dead people by DP 3.

DP 3 and I"m laughing. FT is lynched. Madness! FT begins to attack Jon. FT does a fair bit of the heavy lifting. Beginner does alright, but I feel he"s parroting FT a lot... On the note of the beginners, they were active and decent, which I appreciate. But, like most this game, they lacked the poignant insights my games usually require. Again, the townie with the most accurate analysis is lynched.

NP 3 and... Jon"s claim prevents him from shooting TA and having a ready excuse. With TA dead this game might have been half close. As is, the only possible trap " tracking " occurs. Had Jon been copped he would have been golden. Yet another horrid night for the Mafia. Nobody else had any useful actions. The last role of the dice truly rewards the town.

DP 4 is an easy lynch of Jon. It"s rather shameful that town won a game with more mislynches than lynches, and the only lynch wasn"t even one where they had to fight through deceptions. I get to write a fun OP though...

Saying who the best players were this game is tricky. The players with the best analysis both got mislynched. TUF did well yet got shot. All the best players died, and quickly too. Khaos get kudos for the kill I suppose...

Feedback

I'm always open to feedback, in fact, it's one thing I quite like. Please give some insight on the following if possible:

1. Do you think this game was well balanced? Why / why not?
2. Is my modding style too haphazard? Should I be less creative with roles?
3. Did I mod well?
4. Was this game enjoyable?
5. Did you enjoy the OPs and endscenes of mine? *
6. Any particular role or ideas you want to see back in the future?

*I know that they have story elements and my writing is really poor at times, but still answer this!

I'm interested in hearing any and all feedback - criticism helps at times. I'd be interested to hear from past players in my games how this ranks.

Finally, let me again extend my thanks to all of you for playing in my game. I know that many of you are time pressed, and committing to this may have been difficult, so I thank you all the more for it.

And so the curtain draws to a close...

Logic
"Tis not in mortals to command success
But we"ll do more, Sempronius, we"ll deserve it
IFLYHIGH
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9/1/2013 12:07:05 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
"FT does well to chide those on the Lucky lynch and attack Bladerunner."

I'm interested in hearing why you believe Lucky shouldn't have been lynched.

I wouldn't call this game dull. There was a fair amount of activity and I don't remember any drama or flamewars. Town did get lucky with Bladerunner and Jon, though Jon was going to die with or without TA's incriminating tracker results. Speaking of which, @Khaos, you going to tell us why you targeted TUF now?
IFLYHIGH
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9/1/2013 12:12:29 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
I also strongly disagree that town doesn't deserve the win. Yes, we did get lucky with Bladerunner, but town is entirely responsible for the other two deaths. Mafia weren't even that obvious in this game.

Anyways, gg everybody.
TUF
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9/1/2013 12:14:00 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
Possibly too many powers roles on both sides? Eh I don't really care much more than that for a critique on the game.
"I've got to go and grab a shirt" ~ Airmax1227
IFLYHIGH
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9/1/2013 12:17:27 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
TA should of died the night he claimed. Keeping him alive was what was truly madness. Jon's claim did not prevent him from killing TA since he could have used the excuse that he protected himself. In fact, he did claim to have protected himself minus killing TA. I'm guessing he kept TA alive because he hoped that he would investigate him? He should of realized that every night he kept TA alive was another night TA could confirm somebody. Not to mention it was unlikely that TA would have even investigated Jon since he had town read him. It was very fortunate for town that TA changed his mind at the last second.
Beginner
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9/1/2013 12:25:37 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
Yup, that was a fairly accurate summary of the game. As a town player, I knew I was nearly no-good with analyses.. I was especially lost day 2. Once I got it into my head that FT was town, I decided to defer all my reads to his (part of my reads also stemmed from Lucky).
Kudos to Logc for very colorful and interesting characters. The characters with null/protagonistic descriptions were mafia (heroic horatio, esmerelda) while those with null/antagonistic descriptions (rapist/murderers, lazy people (me)) were town. Quite twisted imo.
Kudos to Khaos for shooting TUF. :)
Senpai has noticed you.
Beginner
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9/1/2013 12:27:56 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
The MVP would have been TUF and/or Lucky if neither had died so early in the game.
Senpai has noticed you.
Logic_on_rails
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9/1/2013 12:29:25 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 9/1/2013 12:14:00 AM, TUF wrote:
Possibly too many powers roles on both sides? Eh I don't really care much more than that for a critique on the game.

That's one critique I can't begin to understand. Too may power roles!? The town had a 1 shot vig, 2 on / off-ish investigative roles - 1 investigator in effect - a piercing psychic (Lucky) and... that's basically it. 1 shot messager, and bulletproof / roleblocker. That's all. There was a lot of passive roles in this game.
"Tis not in mortals to command success
But we"ll do more, Sempronius, we"ll deserve it
F-16_Fighting_Falcon
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9/1/2013 12:39:41 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
I don't think the town's performance was ideal since as you put it, the game had more mislynches than lynches. Khaos did well to shoot TUF. TUF got rather unlucky that he fooled most people except for the vig who shot him. Logic, I don't agree with your endgame analysis. I am not sure if we have even read the same game.

I think the biggest area we have to disagree on is that Lucky was clearly a liability in this game. I have no idea what you are going on about regarding the supposed great insights. No offense to Lucky but his analysis came down to this: "F-16 has to be mafia. Period." He then spent 4+ hours supposedly writing a case on me (which he never came around to posting). I am not sure where he suspected Jon but if he did, it was only in passing. There was never a push for Jon's lynch. Much of his attention (and his vote) was devoted to OMGUSing me for suspecting him for completely rational reasons (I didn't buy his role and his inactivity made him an acceptable mislynch). I can't help but feel a bit annoyed at his play. So, I haven't got a clue what you are talking about, Logic. Have we been reading the same game?

Now, let's talk about game balance. The balance was fine albeit a little pro-town. What really screwed the mafia was luck. Bladerunner dying when one of his targets die was fraught with risks and game breaking potential. When he recruited me and I chose to save TA, that was a free mafia kill. Of course, it could have turned out differently. Had we lynched blade at some point, two (or more) townies would have died. Had Khaos mis-vigged, mafia would have been in a much better position. The game while balanced was very swingy.

A few thoughts on the players: While Khaos made a spectacular play killing TUF NP1, a lot of the constant OMGUSing of FT frustrated me a bit. I can't help but feel annoyed when players come up with analysis like "I am an easy mislynch so scum will try to mislynch me. Player X suspected me, ergo player X is scum." Also, claims help in determining affiliation so demanding how a claim gives you a free pass was a rather pointless question and both the players who you pushed on (FT and I) were town. I'd suggest not OMGUSing so much (same goes for Lucky), but otherwise you played really well and probably helped town win. I don't know how long it would have taken to lynch TUF if you hadn't shot him NP1.

TUF, I guess my Royalpaladin comment was misguided because you were indeed scum. You played how Royal plays like as town when you were scum so that's okay. Most of my attacks on your playstyle were based on the assumption that you were town so I guess they are moot. I didn't want to give you the mafia PM because that would just have been more ammo for you to continue misrepresenting me. I didn't believe that having that PM would enable you to read me better because there were similarities between my play here and in Star Wars. However, if anybody genuinely thought it was similar, that just means my town and scum games are similar and they are picking up on too many null tells. I really look forward to playing a game where we are both town and let's see how that goes. We disagree on a lot (I don't really care too much about player's motivations if they are performing anti-town actions. It is necessary to play pro-town, not just in a town-like manner). I think mislynches are justified if the player is inactive, lies, fake-claims, or refuses to claim. Otherwise the responsibility lies on the rest of the town to not mislynch. On that note, while I am not sorry about Lucky's lynch (inactive, fake-claimed), I really think FT ought not to have been lynched.

This was one of the few games where I was extremely confident in FT's affiliation. Daytona was sure he was scum and a lot of our hydra discussion centered around me convincing him that FT was town. However, he managed to plant seeds of doubt on TUF being scum and he was a great hydra partner in that regard. I also felt beginner's analysis on me was a little shallow although transparently town. He came around well later on and figured out that FT was town although they were rather off the mark with Bull. I feel confident though that they would have eventually figured out Jon was scum if Bull was lynched and flipped town. I noticed FT's suspicion of me for not reading through Bull's meta and tunneling Lucky. Honestly, I just didn't feel like reading it and I felt Bull did a fairly good job looking like town and was definitely townier than Lucky was. We'll just have to agree to disagree there since they were both town.

IFLY did really well and kept a cool head throughout and made rational and logical decisions. His attempted trap of Jon was fun to watch. In DP2, when my townread on FT slipped a little, he was the one player that I completely confident that I could trust. Except for the FT-lynch, he was spot-on most of the game.

On the mafia side, my initial thought was that bladerunner was town. Considering we interacted with each other outside mafia games (on site projects and stuff), I had the feeling that if blade was town, he would pick me out of all people to get into a PM with. That's why I didn't pay him as much attention as I should have. Ultimately though, Daytona and I decided to keep most of our analysis from him since it just didn't feel right.

Logic, in your analysis, you emphasize a lot about town having "No OP analysis, no name analysis, no mod psychology... dull." I think you missed one thing that town spent a lot of time doing: behavioral analysis. To me, that is the most fun part of mafia. I am sorry but I don't care a wit about mod-psych and name analysis and in this game, I didn't care for OP analysis either. To say that that is the mark of poor play is rather misguided. I don't want to spend the entire game reading OPs and analyzing names. Mafia is a game of spotting the informed minority and their behavioral tendencies. That is what town was trying to do. You can hardly chide people and call their analysis "dull" for not analyzing your anagram-ish names and what not if they simply don't give a damn. With that said, I think some of them were rather clever.

You modded quite well although I really would have liked to have seen random role assignments for once. It was definitely enjoyable after I realized TUF was scum after all and that his lies and misrepresentations were indicative of his affiliation rather his intelligence. Me thinking the latter was hilarious in hindsight. While this game wasn't bad, some of your past games were even better and even more enjoyable.
bladerunner060
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9/1/2013 1:03:59 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
F-16:

Bonding with you was a Budda choice made prior to me being switched in.

Granted, I might have done the same if I had been in from DP1, but I definitely took a bit to get the hang of what was going on.
Assistant moderator to airmax1227. PM me with any questions or concerns!
Logic_on_rails
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9/1/2013 1:07:16 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
Just a few clarifications:

I agree Lucky was a liability - his mislynch was quite justified. I would probably have mislynched Lucky myself! I do not disagree with the town's decision. I just found it ironic considering Lucky's quick insights into the game's nature.

Addendum: IFLY's attempted trap of Jon was very clever. It would have been really funny had Jon been lynched for this in light of IFLY's role not actually working...

As to town 'deserving' the win, the town did win justly. I'm just a little peeved that every Mafia death was due to individuals. Perhaps that's my fault as a game designer, but it was quite incredible how it all fell apart...

Also, role assignments, while not done through a RNG, were decidely random. The only truly handpicked role was the empty slot at game's beginning. I'm not sure why you think the role assignments were handpicked F-16.

On analysis - behavioural analysis is the core of Mafia. The town certainly gave it's earnest best in this regard. As a moderator though I take certain pleasures in my games. FT's right in that I love to outplay the players. One delight among many. This game was 'dull' in that I didn't really get too much enjoyment as a moderator. No humorous Mafia PM discussions, no mass confusion... just walls of acronym laden analysis. I'm probably exaggerating here though. It's more pronounced a fault because , aside from a game from December to February, I'm not sure I'll have time to run Mafia games as I enter year 12.

What the endgame posts really reflect, on most counts, is disappointment.

Now, a Mafia game is not about moderator enjoyment, but it also seems that player enjoyment of this game was fairly limited in comparison to my other games. No one batted an eyelid at any of the new roles I had. People seemed to lack enthusiasm at times. No one had any great realisations, thunderous assaults. The whole point of the story was to find a balance between reality and ideals. It's a message I support. If everyone were the man of an Aristotelian tragedy...

Oh well, this game ran better than Blaise I suppose.
"Tis not in mortals to command success
But we"ll do more, Sempronius, we"ll deserve it
F-16_Fighting_Falcon
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9/1/2013 1:08:14 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
blade, I just realized you said in the PM that if you die, we die. Then you said you picked us because you thought we were town. That made no sense. I never understood why you would want townreads to die. Lol, I can't believe I just let that slide. But good play though.
Khaos_Mage
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9/1/2013 1:54:23 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 9/1/2013 12:07:05 AM, IFLYHIGH wrote:
Speaking of which, @Khaos, you going to tell us why you targeted TUF now?

TUF made a comment DP1 that referenced my game, in which he seemed to speak with authority as to who was town in that game. He was not mafia, so he couldn't be as certain as he was, thus, I assumed he was mafia here.

As I said, it wasn't the best reasoning, and I don't think I would have acted on it if it wasn't for the empty slot. I may have just been lucky.
My work here is, finally, done.
bladerunner060
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9/1/2013 1:56:12 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 9/1/2013 1:08:14 AM, F-16_Fighting_Falcon wrote:
blade, I just realized you said in the PM that if you die, we die. Then you said you picked us because you thought we were town. That made no sense. I never understood why you would want townreads to die. Lol, I can't believe I just let that slide. But good play though.

I didn't pick ya. Budda did. I got dropped in at the beginning of DP2 and had to figure out what was going on.
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FourTrouble
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9/1/2013 2:38:08 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 9/1/2013 12:42:11 AM, F-16_Fighting_Falcon wrote:
I'd say FT/IFLY was MVP.

I disagree. IFLY played quite bad, a real disappointment. MVP would be you, Beginner or myself. I thought your meta on Beginner was pretty important, and your analysis on D1 really helped the town group together (you, Beginner, Khaos, myself, and IFLY). I'd say this kind of play (bringing the townies together) was the best play in the game, even if you faltered somewhat later with Lucky's lynch. Beginner started playing much better later in the game. I liked his activity. He was reevaluating his reads, and doing his best to actually figure out who the scum were, and to lynch them. He eventually realized I was town, and that Jon was scum, and he did his best to stop my lynch and direct attention elsewhere. That was great play and showed real conviction on his part.

IFLY may have been obvious town but that doesn't make someone MVP, or even close to MVP. He motivated Jon when the obvious person to motivate was TA... That was a HUGE fail. He lynched me without even giving me time to answer his questions (0 attempt to understand where I'm coming from, a huge problem given the effort I was putting into the game). He didn't really do anything particularly well this game, to be honest.

The majority of the town played extremely bad -- Lucky included. I'm not sure what "insights" Logic is referring to? Lucky didn't even give us his full claim. TA's play was the worst I've seen, enough to make him a policy lynch in any game I play with him in the future. Bull was straight-up delusional (he thinks I was FOS'ing everyone, for some odd reason), Khaos was also making sh!t up.
IFLYHIGH
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9/1/2013 7:29:47 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 9/1/2013 2:38:08 PM, FourTrouble wrote:
At 9/1/2013 12:42:11 AM, F-16_Fighting_Falcon wrote:
I'd say FT/IFLY was MVP.

I disagree. IFLY played quite bad, a real disappointment.

Why? I realize that I don't deserve MVP, but I didn't play terribly either.

The only two reads I got wrong this game were Jon and you, and I changed my read on Jon. That's not a result of terrible analysis.

IFLY may have been obvious town but that doesn't make someone MVP, or even close to MVP. He motivated Jon when the obvious person to motivate was TA... That was a HUGE fail.

Why was TA the obvious person to motivate? Because he claimed an investigative role? That doesn't outweigh his scumminess from DP3. I was not about to motivate a null read over a town read.

Also, when did I become a strong town read of yours? Because I must have missed that part.

He lynched me without even giving me time to answer his questions (0 attempt to understand where I'm coming from, a huge problem given the effort I was putting into the game).

#234, DP3. I unvoted because I decided to reevaluate my read on you like you asked me to.

In posts #235, #236, #240, #259 I ask questions attempting to understand your viewpoint.

Saying I didn't give you time to respond is false since you responded to almost every single one of those post before I voted for you again.

I only asked you two questions(that were relevant to my read on you) that you didn't get a chance to respond to. Though keep in mind I was only the second vote on you and had no way of predicting that both Jon and TA would add their votes so quickly.

He didn't really do anything particularly well this game, to be honest.

How about the part were I tripped up Jon? Even if TA didn't come out with his tracker results, Jon would most likely have been lynched because of me.
FourTrouble
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9/1/2013 8:30:33 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 9/1/2013 7:29:47 PM, IFLYHIGH wrote:
At 9/1/2013 2:38:08 PM, FourTrouble wrote:
At 9/1/2013 12:42:11 AM, F-16_Fighting_Falcon wrote:
I'd say FT/IFLY was MVP.

I disagree. IFLY played quite bad, a real disappointment.

Why? I realize that I don't deserve MVP, but I didn't play terribly either.

The only two reads I got wrong this game were Jon and you, and I changed my read on Jon. That's not a result of terrible analysis.

I thought you said Lucky was obvious scum, to the point where you even lynched me for defending him...

IFLY may have been obvious town but that doesn't make someone MVP, or even close to MVP. He motivated Jon when the obvious person to motivate was TA... That was a HUGE fail.

Why was TA the obvious person to motivate? Because he claimed an investigative role? That doesn't outweigh his scumminess from DP3. I was not about to motivate a null read over a town read.

I'm talking about N2, which was after D2, which was prior to his quick hammer. I would say, at that point in the game, he was pretty obviously town. I also made it pretty clear, with my analysis, that TA was the night-kill on N3, and that as such, he was confirmed town. So even if you thought he was scummy on D3, he was 100% town based on the happenings of N2.

Also, when did I become a strong town read of yours? Because I must have missed that part.

You seriously gonna debate this with me? I said at the start of D3 (which was when I actually really started putting effort into the game) that you were town. I don't recall ever suspecting you once on D3, nor do I ever recall pushing your lynch once in the game. You're right though, you weren't THAT town, especially after your horrendous N2 night-action.

He lynched me without even giving me time to answer his questions (0 attempt to understand where I'm coming from, a huge problem given the effort I was putting into the game).

#234, DP3. I unvoted because I decided to reevaluate my read on you like you asked me to.

In posts #235, #236, #240, #259 I ask questions attempting to understand your viewpoint.

Saying I didn't give you time to respond is false since you responded to almost every single one of those post before I voted for you again.

I only asked you two questions(that were relevant to my read on you) that you didn't get a chance to respond to. Though keep in mind I was only the second vote on you and had no way of predicting that both Jon and TA would add their votes so quickly.

Apparently, these questions were the ones that mattered. Why ask questions, and then vote for me? I've already explained a million times how you misread half my posts to fit them into your idea that I'm scum. You've done this many times before. The impatience with voting me, however you spin it, was a terrible move, and not one I'll be forgiving any time soon.

He didn't really do anything particularly well this game, to be honest.

How about the part were I tripped up Jon? Even if TA didn't come out with his tracker results, Jon would most likely have been lynched because of me.

After Jon was obvious scum from blackhawk's flip? You should have suspected Jon on D2, back when I was saying he was scum, and wondering why no one else suspected him. If you did that, then maybe you can say you did something right. By the time you suspected Jon, Beginner was pushing his lynch as hard as he could. I don't see what you did that was so impressive.

What I see are a large number of mistakes:

D2: you lynched Lucky.
N2: you motivated Jon.
D3: you lynched me.

This is not what the play of an MVP looks like. It's what the play of someone who is getting things wrong looks like.
F-16_Fighting_Falcon
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9/1/2013 8:36:50 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
Guys, let's just move on.

My point was that different players have different skills. FT's reads are incredibly accurate. IFLY when town plays very transparently as town. FT, if you portrayed yourself like IFLY does or if he had your read accuracy, you'd be superhuman. Not everyone has the same skills. Different people have different skills and that's what I observed this game.
IFLYHIGH
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9/2/2013 1:15:29 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 9/1/2013 8:30:33 PM, FourTrouble wrote:
I thought you said Lucky was obvious scum, to the point where you even lynched me for defending him...

No.

I'm talking about N2, which was after D2, which was prior to his quick hammer. I would say, at that point in the game, he was pretty obviously town.

Yes, and I also thought he would be dead, negating any use of my role. That was because I mistankingly thought Jon was on Lucky's lynch and TA wasn't. It was a misunderstanding on a part, not a bad use of my night actions.

I also made it pretty clear, with my analysis, that TA was the night-kill on N3, and that as such, he was confirmed town. So even if you thought he was scummy on D3, he was 100% town based on the happenings of N2.

I remember you saying he was the obvious night kill, but nothing about him being 100% confirmed. I don't even remember why you thought he was the obvious night kill, because of his role is important? It's not like we knew for certainity he was actually an investigative JOAT.

Also, when did I become a strong town read of yours? Because I must have missed that part.

You seriously gonna debate this with me? I said at the start of D3 (which was when I actually really started putting effort into the game) that you were town. I don't recall ever suspecting you once on D3, nor do I ever recall pushing your lynch once in the game.

Yes you did, but whatever. I don't really care what read you had on me since it doesn't really matter.

Apparently, these questions were the ones that mattered. Why ask questions, and then vote for me?

Is there ever a bad time to ask questions?

I had already made up my mind about you though there was still some things I thought worth asking.

I've already explained a million times how you misread half my posts to fit them into your idea that I'm scum. You've done this many times before. The impatience with voting me, however you spin it, was a terrible move, and not one I'll be forgiving any time soon.

W/e dude. As F-16 said, it's time to move on.

He didn't really do anything particularly well this game, to be honest.

How about the part were I tripped up Jon? Even if TA didn't come out with his tracker results, Jon would most likely have been lynched because of me.

After Jon was obvious scum from blackhawk's flip?

Oh? I don't remember this, but w/e.

You should have suspected Jon on D2, back when I was saying he was scum, and wondering why no one else suspected him.

You called him third party, based on logic that proved to be incorrect.

You later speculated that he might be mafia because of TUF's and Bladerunner's roles, but it was just that, speculation.

What I see are a large number of mistakes:

D2: you lynched Lucky.

I'm not the only one. In fact, one of your candidates for being MVP also made the same mistake.

N2: you motivated Jon.

Off of a misunderstading. If I had been thinking correctly, then yes, I'd probably have motivated TA.

D3: you lynched me.

It's what happens. People are going to get mislynched.

Inb4 you were obvious town.

This is not what the play of an MVP looks like.

We aren't arguing whether I deserved to be MVP or not. I already admitted that I didn't.

It's what the play of someone who is getting things wrong looks like.

I made mistakes, about as much as you did. I did not play terribly.

But ok. It's time to move on as F-16 said. You don't have to forgive me since I'm going on a haitus anyways. If you want to believe I rushed your lynch and twisted my analysis just so I could lynch you, then believe that.