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WhiteFlag Nightless Chosen Mafia Endgame

F-16_Fighting_Falcon
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9/4/2013 1:22:20 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
WINNERS - TOWN (Yraelz/FourTrouble, Noumena, JonMilne, drafterman, Bullish, beginner, TUF, Logic_on_Rails, TheAntidoter)

Mafia - Bull_Diesel, Khaos_Mage, Bladerunner060, blackhawk1331

The veto'd player was Logic_on_Rails. The chosen townies were JonMilne, drafterman (the irony, I know...), and Noumena.

Analysis:

Town figured out right from the beginning that this game was balanced in their favor and I think that perhaps it slightly was. Needing 5 mislynches vs 3 lynches wasn't going be easy for the mafia. I think what I could have done differently was to have 4 mislynches required making this a 12 player game. I counted on no roles to prevent confirmations of townies.

The only disappointment for me was that stupid mistakes confirmed townies. Jon's attempted fake-claim and Noumena's lack of knowledge about how the Chosen mechanic works. That took away two potential mislynches with which mafia could have won including that chosen townie lynch. blade could have hammered JonMilne when he was being wagoned DP1 but missed that chance. If he had, that would have been an extra mislynch.

From the town side, town played incredibly well. MVP goes to FT/Yraelz for sure. The thing that surprised me most was FT's remarkable accuracy in the beginning of the game.

So far only 3 people had posted (besides him and Yraelz) and he correctly figured out the affiliations of all of them:

3. Reasons to Vote for Bull ...

To Yraelz's points, you can also add Bullish's ... is a massive town-tell.

blackhawk goes in the pile of potential scum along with Bull-Diesel.

Almost like magic, he figured out affiliations the minute they posted - and all of this on page 1. No wonder the town wrecked the mafia.

The remaining townies played very well too. Bullish, Noumena, drafterman, beginner all tunnelled blade after Khaos was lynched. There was no doubt in anyone's mind who the scum were. Even now, Beginner and Yraelz correctly guessed that the last scum was blackhawk.

Mafia's play: Mafia made several sub-optimal moves. I believe I was at least partly responsible for not posting in the OP the names of the roles, but Bull was acting scummy regardless. The worst move though was Khaos saying bull was the same affiliation as Jon and pushing for Jon's lynch. It couldn't have been more obvious. Blade not hard-bussing Khaos was another mistake. What the mafia never realized was this: in a game where two had to survive, it makes more sense to cut your losses and bus hard when two are suspected as opposed to link 3 of themselves together ensuring all of their lynches.

Had there been persuasive players in the mafia like FT or Drafter who could derail lynches and have them crash and burn, it might make sense. But mafia was composed fully of players who weren't known for swaying opinions and getting their reads lynched. As such, they should have bussed rather than attempted to defend their mates when such an action was suicide and would never help their scum-mates at all. bladerunner played decently in his first game however initially getting a lot of townreads. Blackhawk was clearly the best being the surviving mafioso.

The town lynch on TA was quite reasonable. Logic, as I told him in his role PM wasn't playing bad at all. He was just in the wrong place at the wrong time and the heavy activity among the town during the early phases sort of made him look inactive. TUF's lynch was funny tbh. The town was right on track lynching bladerunner when Yraelz came up with his analysis to get TUF lynched instead. Drafter's betrayal of TUF while initially pretending to believe him actually made me laugh out loud. But that can't have been great for TUF so I kinda feel sorry as well.

Overall, I felt that while this game was town-sided, if the mafia had been more persuasive or had more experienced players been in the mafia, it was very winnable although I now feel 4 mislynches would have been more balanced than 5.

I'll do a Logic and ask a few questions:

1) Do you think the game was balanced?

2) Do you like playing open setups which are generally low on roles? Would you be interested in playing another such game the next time I mod or do you prefer standard closed-setup games?

3) What do you think of the WhiteFlag mechanic by itself?

4) What do you think of the Nightless mechanic and its influence on gameplay?

Finally, thanks for playing everyone. You were awesome and active. I only needed one replacement (daytona) who never posted. Thanks to TUF for filling in.
Khaos_Mage
Posts: 23,214
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9/4/2013 1:36:52 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 9/4/2013 1:22:20 PM, F-16_Fighting_Falcon wrote:

1) Do you think the game was balanced?
No, I think mafia should have gotten to choose the chosen.
It was about the only bit of strategy available to them with no NK.

2) Do you like playing open setups which are generally low on roles? Would you be interested in playing another such game the next time I mod or do you prefer standard closed-setup games?
Personally, I like roles better, but I can see the reasons why people like these games. Perhaps, if I ever get good at reading people, I, too, may prefer low role games.

3) What do you think of the WhiteFlag mechanic by itself?
6/10

4) What do you think of the Nightless mechanic and its influence on gameplay?
4/10

Finally, thanks for playing everyone. You were awesome and active. I only needed one replacement (daytona) who never posted. Thanks to TUF for filling in.

What annoys me is that I have been killed as mafia twice now, both for doing things I would do as town. However, perhaps that's because I have no "meta" to speak of...

For the record, I wasn't implying that Bull and Jon were the same affiliation. It was a sincere misunderstanding (that was beneficial to jump on, obviously), that took three players to explain it to me. I sincerly didn't understand the logic of lynching Bull and not Jon, both for making a mistake.
So, naturally, I am obviously scum for it :/
My work here is, finally, done.
Bullish
Posts: 3,527
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9/4/2013 2:02:45 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
GG and GJ everyone.

At 9/4/2013 1:22:20 PM, F-16_Fighting_Falcon wrote:

Yay my name was up there.

I'll do a Logic and ask a few questions:

1) Do you think the game was balanced?

Like you said yourself, it was slightly in town's favor; 12 players and 1 more chosen would have been close to 50/50. Mafia had really bad luck too, with FT getting 2 out 4 mafia reads.

2) Do you like playing open setups which are generally low on roles? Would you be interested in playing another such game the next time I mod or do you prefer standard closed-setup games?

Yes. I hate rolemadness. Open set ups I'm fine with, but I prefer to have it at least partly closed, to make mass claim harder. This was a good game and you're a good mod. Mods who stick to what the bare minimum the mods should do are the best.

3) What do you think of the WhiteFlag mechanic by itself?

It's a good variation. It gets rid of some of the end game paradoxes and stalemates, also makes strategy more important for Mafia early on so they can't bus that easily. But it's no necessary.

4) What do you think of the Nightless mechanic and its influence on gameplay?

No. I have always felt that NK is an essential part of Mafia.
0x5f3759df
blackhawk1331
Posts: 4,932
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9/4/2013 3:41:27 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
First of all, F-16, I'd like to point out that while FT originally had a scum read, the reasoning was kind of poor and I quickly got back to null (at least from what I gathered by his posts), and then all the way up to "definitely town". What I'm curious about is why yraelz and beginner or bullish guessed I was the last scum at the end. Considering how heavily I was town read, I was shocked to see that. It's also unfortunate that school started yesterday and I lost almost all my free time at the critical point for us. After LoR and TUF's mislynches, I was starting to regain hope that we could win (which I had all but lost at the end of dp 1 when diesel and khaos were caught. For most of the game, I was trying to make it so that only three of us would be caught (not that we'd be able to win anyway, but at least town wouldn't have the satisfaction of getting us all)). I was planning to come home today, make some case against a random townie in a last ditch effort to kill one, and then push for a chosen's lynch next dp. I wasn't going to consider blade until next dp, but try to insist that the chosen was scummier.

Our biggest problem was people getting confirmed early on. Between khaos's push at Jon (and his mistake) and noumena's confusion, two of the three chosen were "confirmed" dp 1 with two of 4 mafia caught.

I have to say that, reading through the finals phase(s), I was kind of irritated at FT/Y's behavior. The fact that they were claiming so much credit for diesel and khaos's lynches really pissed me off. First off, I didn't lynch diesel because of any case that either of them made. Second, I called khaos out as scum on my own. It had nothing to do with them. (hated bussing two mafia so soon, but didn't have much choice, as F-16 said)

1) Do you think the game was balanced?

No. I forget who said it, but the town was statistically more likely to win from the beginning. Plus, 2 of three chosens were experienced and harder to lynch. I think we should have been allowed to choose one of the chosens and should have had one less person to lynch.

2) Do you like playing open setups which are generally low on roles? Would you be interested in playing another such game the next time I mod or do you prefer standard closed-setup games?

I enjoyed the game, personally. Forces me to get better at behavioral analysis. I wonder how I'd have done as town (and if I had more experience with some of these players). I know I tried to look at the entire game through town view point, but it' still hard to make a case against someone that you know is a townie.

3) What do you think of the WhiteFlag mechanic by itself?

I didn't really like it. The big problem with it was that, no matter how "confirmed" I got, it didn't matter unless blade was also "confirmed" (or another scum), and that obviously didn't happen. I think that we would have honestly stood a better chance of winning without it. I think the game could very well have come down to me, noumena, and FT/Y. I just think the three of us because we were all fairly consistently strongly town read.

4) What do you think of the Nightless mechanic and its influence on gameplay?

I didn't really mind. A nk would have ruined the set-up because we'd have just shot a chosen np 1 and not had to worry about that the rest of the game.
Because you said it was a waste, numb nuts. - Drafter

So fvck you. :) - TV

Use prima facie correctly or not at all. - Noumena
blackhawk1331
Posts: 4,932
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9/4/2013 3:42:25 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
*no nks also made me (don't know about the other mafia) have to think about the game more to see who I could try to pass a mislynch on. Unfortunately, I came up pretty much empty handed.
Because you said it was a waste, numb nuts. - Drafter

So fvck you. :) - TV

Use prima facie correctly or not at all. - Noumena
blackhawk1331
Posts: 4,932
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9/4/2013 3:45:14 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
Should clarify. It's not that I suddenly had no free time, it's that I didn't have enough in a big enough block last night to be able to be on and actively monitor the dp as I tried to push a mislynch. I figured the odds were greater of me just getting myself thrown in the scum pile.
Because you said it was a waste, numb nuts. - Drafter

So fvck you. :) - TV

Use prima facie correctly or not at all. - Noumena
Logic_on_rails
Posts: 2,445
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9/4/2013 5:50:32 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
Well, it appears my reads were fairly inaccurate.

Now, I've got to ask - FT, as I was being lynched, did you think me scum? You seemed to be the only player who was even thinking of changing their mind. I want to know if you were... because otherwise every single player in the game wanted my lynch. That's a rather scary thought that this is basically the 2nd time I've ever been mislynched. That statistic may be why I was selected to be vetoed. What's more scary is that I thought I was playing very pro-town. I was as active as usual, I had reads... My mislynch was rather surprising.

I'll second F-16 and say that FT was very accurate in his play. I've known FT to be very accurate in hunting down Mafia - that's why I had my slightly crazy DP 5 policy lynch idea - but he was very much on track... besides my mislynch.

To questions:

1) Do you think the game was balanced?

Given that random lynching gives townies a win on average, no. Now, Mafia can influence 'random' lynching, but so can town. If it were me, given this specific set-up (not my games) , I'd either handpick the Mafia or give them more vetoes or let them select 1 of the chosen. With said improvements (some of which could come around through luck in the current set-up) , this game would be balanced.

2) Do you like playing open setups which are generally low on roles? Would you be interested in playing another such game the next time I mod or do you prefer standard closed-setup games?

I'm probably the biggest fan of closed set-up custom themes, due to behavioural analysis being the weakest part of my game, and my love of other intrigue... That said, don't do role madness. I'm happy for games where there's hardly an active role, like Shades of Our Lives. That said, do what you will, and what you're best at designing.

3) What do you think of the WhiteFlag mechanic by itself?

It advantages town I think. Knowing that 2 of the Mafia must survive is a cause of aggressive play. It's hard to get 'confirmed' as Mafia, yet alone doing it twice.

4) What do you think of the Nightless mechanic and its influence on gameplay?

It works for this set-up. No NP games with roles are a different matter entirely.

Finally, thanks for modding this game F-16. I did enjoy this game, even though it's not quite my usual cup of tea.
"Tis not in mortals to command success
But we"ll do more, Sempronius, we"ll deserve it
FourTrouble
Posts: 12,757
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9/4/2013 6:06:01 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 9/4/2013 5:50:32 PM, Logic_on_rails wrote:
Well, it appears my reads were fairly inaccurate.

Now, I've got to ask - FT, as I was being lynched, did you think me scum?

I was starting to think you were town, and I immediately voted blackhawk after he hammered you, if that means any consolation. I still hadn't had time to figure out who the scum were, but I definitely felt uneasy about your lynch after some thought. The main reason I suspected you, at first, was your absence in the game while we were conversing through PM, and Khaos defending you. You have to understand how both those things look. Your point about being concrete in your reads, and the fact you had lots of town reads, definitely lent support to the idea that you were town, and that was what made me doubt you were scum.

Also, @blackhawk:

I was pretty sure you were scum after you hammered Logic, and you might note I didn't actually vote anyone but you for the rest of the game. I thought that was the single most scummy move in the game, and you had no good explanation for it, regardless of what you might think.
FourTrouble
Posts: 12,757
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9/4/2013 6:12:33 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
1) Do you think the game was balanced?

Yes. If the mafia consisted of players that are difficult to lynch, and good at directing lynches where they want, this game would have turned out very differently. To put this in perspective, imagine if the RNG gods decided to make Noumena, drafter, Yraelz/myself, and TUF mafia: do you really think the town would have done as well as it had? Jon would have been lynched right away (his massive town-tell would have almost certainly been overlooked). Then, we had a free lynch on TA. Bull probably would have gotten himself killed, and Khaos too, just based on how easy it is to make cases on them. The outcome of the game doesn't mean the game was balanced in favor of town.

2) Do you like playing open setups which are generally low on roles? Would you be interested in playing another such game the next time I mod or do you prefer standard closed-setup games?

Yes. I much prefer playing this kind of game than the games filled with roles. The few moments where I was active, I got really into it, and enjoyed the game thoroughly for that.

3) What do you think of the WhiteFlag mechanic by itself?

It's a good mechanic that ideally brings out behavioral tells.

4) What do you think of the Nightless mechanic and its influence on gameplay?

I like the Nightless games but the problem is that mafia can't get rid of a townie tearing them apart except through the DP, and that can be a real problem. It definitely increases the influence that a single townie can have on the game, as opposed to games with a night-kill, where mafia can just kill said townie.

It was an awesome game. Thanks for modding it.
Yraelz
Posts: 4,056
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9/4/2013 9:22:31 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 9/4/2013 3:41:27 PM, blackhawk1331 wrote:
First of all, F-16, I'd like to point out that while FT originally had a scum read, the reasoning was kind of poor and I quickly got back to null (at least from what I gathered by his posts), and then all the way up to "definitely town". What I'm curious about is why yraelz and beginner or bullish guessed I was the last scum at the end.

I enjoy town reading people to see what there reaction is. For instance my '100% town' on Noumena was more like an 80% town. The difference between you and Noumena was in your reactions. Noumena, paraphrased, said, "wtf, why are you town reading me?" and you just went with it. The discrepancy suggests a motivational difference which lead me to believe that you weren't really scum concerned with players affiliations. It was down between you, Blade, and Noumena that last day but then I realized Noumena had misunderstood the chosen mechanic 2x which just left you.
Yraelz
Posts: 4,056
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9/4/2013 9:28:58 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 9/4/2013 3:41:27 PM, blackhawk1331 wrote:
I have to say that, reading through the finals phase(s), I was kind of irritated at FT/Y's behavior.

That will tend to happen. ;)

The fact that they were claiming so much credit for diesel and khaos's lynches really pissed me off. First off, I didn't lynch diesel because of any case that either of them made.

That doesn't really count, you were scum in this game. I mean props to us if we could convince the scum to lynch their own teammates, but that's probably never going to happen.

Second, I called khaos out as scum on my own. It had nothing to do with them. (hated bussing two mafia so soon, but didn't have much choice, as F-16 said)

I thought your point on Khaos was really good. But what sold me was the fact that he kept attempting to obfuscate incoming reads. That said, you were attempting to deceive us this entire game and win for your team. The fact that townies were able to find the truths in your analysis is to their credit and your detriment. ;)
Yraelz
Posts: 4,056
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9/4/2013 9:33:02 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 9/4/2013 1:22:20 PM, F-16_Fighting_Falcon wrote:
1) Do you think the game was balanced?

I think you shouldn't have re-randomized the roles after your initial randomize.

2) Do you like playing open setups which are generally low on roles? Would you be interested in playing another such game the next time I mod or do you prefer standard closed-setup games?

Behavioral analysis heavy games are the best.

3) What do you think of the WhiteFlag mechanic by itself?

I would definitely play it again.

4) What do you think of the Nightless mechanic and its influence on gameplay?

The night-less game play necessitates more skill on the mafia's end but promotes more paranoia on the town side of things. If TUF, Drafter, or I had been mafia I think we would have more adamantly directed lynches. Also, although I don't support bussing, I think this setup actually makes bussing intensely powerful.
F-16_Fighting_Falcon
Posts: 18,324
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9/4/2013 9:50:44 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 9/4/2013 9:33:02 PM, Yraelz wrote:
At 9/4/2013 1:22:20 PM, F-16_Fighting_Falcon wrote:
1) Do you think the game was balanced?

I think you shouldn't have re-randomized the roles after your initial randomize.

What are your talking about? I only randomized once.
Yraelz
Posts: 4,056
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9/4/2013 11:25:58 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 9/4/2013 9:50:44 PM, F-16_Fighting_Falcon wrote:
At 9/4/2013 9:33:02 PM, Yraelz wrote:
At 9/4/2013 1:22:20 PM, F-16_Fighting_Falcon wrote:
1) Do you think the game was balanced?

I think you shouldn't have re-randomized the roles after your initial randomize.

What are your talking about? I only randomized once.

Lol, I think you should have re-randomized.
F-16_Fighting_Falcon
Posts: 18,324
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9/4/2013 11:37:43 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
Well, that would be quite unethical and mod-interference. It is probably one of the only things I dislike about Logic's games for instance. I was once of the opinion that mafia should have at least 1-2 experienced players if not a majority of experienced players but drafterman convinced me otherwise. I intend to do the same in all future games as well (use the first random list that I get from an RNG to assign affiliations). Even blade's and logic's affiliations were randomized after they agreed to replace Lucky and Sarcastic pregame (Sarcastic was scum and Lucky was town).

Also, I'd be pretty annoyed about playing in a game where roles are adjusted to put experienced players in the mafia. If I draw town, I want there to be the possibility that you, FT, drafter etc are all town and we can destroy the mafia. If roles were non-random, I'd guess that one of you had to be mafia since I am town, and the paranoia would ruin enjoyment of the game. I remember in some old games, experienced players FOS other experienced players on policy since they are town, they figure that the other has to be mafia. Even now, people occasionally suspect that at least one experienced player is mafia. For instance, in SOOL, people started wondering which experienced player is mafia. It completely ruins the fun because the most fun part ever of playing as town is your knowledge of the possibility that all the other experienced players could potentially be town and there is nothing preventing that.

Also, I agree with drafter that complete randomization is fairer. Too many mods "tweak" the roles or re-randomize if the initial randomization isn't to their liking and is one of the things that annoys me the most. Even worse is when they lie and say that they have randomized the roles when in reality, it wasn't the first random list they got. At least, when I used to handpick roles, I didn't claim that they were random.
Maikuru
Posts: 9,112
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9/4/2013 11:42:13 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 9/4/2013 11:25:58 PM, Yraelz wrote:
At 9/4/2013 9:50:44 PM, F-16_Fighting_Falcon wrote:
At 9/4/2013 9:33:02 PM, Yraelz wrote:
At 9/4/2013 1:22:20 PM, F-16_Fighting_Falcon wrote:
1) Do you think the game was balanced?

I think you shouldn't have re-randomized the roles after your initial randomize.

What are your talking about? I only randomized once.

Lol, I think you should have re-randomized.

We killed it as a noob scum team in F-16's fantasy mafia =)
"You assume I wouldn't want to burn this whole place to the ground."
- lamerde

https://i.imgflip.com...
F-16_Fighting_Falcon
Posts: 18,324
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9/5/2013 12:02:05 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 9/4/2013 1:36:52 PM, Khaos_Mage wrote:

What annoys me is that I have been killed as mafia twice now, both for doing things I would do as town. However, perhaps that's because I have no "meta" to speak of...

For the record, I wasn't implying that Bull and Jon were the same affiliation. It was a sincere misunderstanding (that was beneficial to jump on, obviously), that took three players to explain it to me. I sincerly didn't understand the logic of lynching Bull and not Jon, both for making a mistake.
So, naturally, I am obviously scum for it :/

This is interesting. You are certainly not the first one. Scum are often caught and lynched for things that may not be scumtells or town gets lucky etc. It happens to everyone. In fact, did you know that "scum caught for the wrong reasons" is a well-known tell on mafiascum?

It ultimately comes down to your ability to persuade the players that the reasons for catching you are wrong. If they are indeed wrong, you have a good chance of proving this. If you were lynched despite what you believe to be incorrect reasoning, then you should work on improving your ability to persuade.
Yraelz
Posts: 4,056
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9/5/2013 12:02:57 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 9/4/2013 11:42:13 PM, Maikuru wrote:
We killed it as a noob scum team in F-16's fantasy mafia =)

I guess that's true, I retract my comment. Sometimes it really works out.
blackhawk1331
Posts: 4,932
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9/5/2013 12:46:50 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 9/4/2013 9:28:58 PM, Yraelz wrote:
At 9/4/2013 3:41:27 PM, blackhawk1331 wrote:
I have to say that, reading through the finals phase(s), I was kind of irritated at FT/Y's behavior.

That will tend to happen. ;)

The fact that they were claiming so much credit for diesel and khaos's lynches really pissed me off. First off, I didn't lynch diesel because of any case that either of them made.

That doesn't really count, you were scum in this game. I mean props to us if we could convince the scum to lynch their own teammates, but that's probably never going to happen.

Fair enough, but I still bussed him based on the slip, not what you guys said. I would have lynched him as town for the same reason.

Second, I called khaos out as scum on my own. It had nothing to do with them. (hated bussing two mafia so soon, but didn't have much choice, as F-16 said)

I thought your point on Khaos was really good. But what sold me was the fact that he kept attempting to obfuscate incoming reads. That said, you were attempting to deceive us this entire game and win for your team. The fact that townies were able to find the truths in your analysis is to their credit and your detriment. ;)

I disagree. I was starting to bus him at that point because of what he'd done. That's also why I explicitly said that I was on board with his lynch. That analysis of him was meant to make him look scummy.

@FT, I know that the reason for hammering LoR wasn't that good. I just wanted to get some mislynches at that point so that we didn't lose too badly. If I had been town, I probably wouldn't have hammered TA or LoR. Khaos and diesel, though, I'd still have gone after.
Because you said it was a waste, numb nuts. - Drafter

So fvck you. :) - TV

Use prima facie correctly or not at all. - Noumena
Noumena
Posts: 6,047
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9/6/2013 9:25:09 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
Good game. Still kicking myself for not putting as much importance on BH's hammer of Logic than was probably due. Also a bit embarrassing that I was 'confirmed' in Yraelz' eyes for much the same reason as Jon.
: At 5/13/2014 7:05:20 PM, Crescendo wrote:
: The difference is that the gay movement is currently pushing their will on Churches, as shown in the link to gay marriage in Denmark. Meanwhile, the Inquisition ended several centuries ago.