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MultiBall Mafia DP1

TheAntidoter
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9/21/2013 1:51:45 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
Now that you have been through pre-game, I can start the 1st day phase.

Playerlist:

1. Blackhawk
2. Khaos- Mage
3. TN05
4. Sparkies
5. Johnnyboy
6. JonMilne
7. Hatstand
8. Yraelz
9. NightCat
10. Drafterman
11. Shadowguynick
12. Bullish
13. Noumena
14. Lannan13
15. OhHello

With 15 players It will take 8 to lynch.

Day phase1 starts now. GO GO.
Affinity: Fire
Class: Human
Abilities: ????

Nac.

WOAH, COLORED FONT!
Bullish
Posts: 3,527
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9/21/2013 1:58:04 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
Here be the people who didn't TVG blackhawk:

Lannan, Drafter, Jon, Bullish, Cats, Noumena, OhHello.

Let's start there.

VTL Lannan.
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Bullish
Posts: 3,527
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9/21/2013 1:58:56 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 9/21/2013 1:58:04 PM, Bullish wrote:
Here be the people who didn't VTG blackhawk:

Lannan, Drafter, Jon, Bullish, Cats, Noumena, OhHello.

Let's start there.

VTL Lannan.
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JonMilne
Posts: 1,302
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9/21/2013 2:00:14 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 9/21/2013 1:58:04 PM, Bullish wrote:
Here be the people who didn't TVG blackhawk:

Lannan, Drafter, Jon, Bullish, Cats, Noumena, OhHello.

Let's start there.

VTL Lannan.

Pardon? Check your records again. I did in fact vote for Blackhawk as governor.

VTL Bullish for slip.
Bullish
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9/21/2013 2:04:42 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 9/21/2013 2:00:14 PM, JonMilne wrote:
At 9/21/2013 1:58:04 PM, Bullish wrote:
Here be the people who didn't TVG blackhawk:

Lannan, Drafter, Hatstand, Bullish, Cats, Noumena, OhHello.

Let's start there.

VTL Lannan.

Pardon? Check your records again. I did in fact vote for Blackhawk as governor.

VTL Bullish for slip.

Oh right, Hatstand unvoted; I thought your vote didn't count. List modified.
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drafterman
Posts: 18,870
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9/21/2013 2:14:17 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
aside from my single post, i really didnt pay attention to the pregame phase. im going over it now. i think mafia would want that ability more than town, since it spares them from a mislynch.
TN05
Posts: 4,492
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9/21/2013 2:44:16 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 9/21/2013 2:03:30 PM, Khaos_Mage wrote:
VTL Blackhawk

To force him to use his governor ability as promised DP1.

What do you mean by this? Are you wanting him to use it to modconfirm himself?
Hatstand
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9/21/2013 2:50:37 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 9/21/2013 2:03:30 PM, Khaos_Mage wrote:
VTL Blackhawk

To force him to use his governor ability as promised DP1.

Isn't that rather silly? If he doesn't use it on DP1, we'll lynch him for lying in order to get the governor role. If we go through with this with another target, we get at least one affiliation confirmation (the target or Blackhawk) as well as a probably partial role-confirmation on Blackhawk (which isn't affiliation confirmation but is better than nothing.)

Personally, I think the odds that he was lying are very slim, as this power is so easy to prove. Unless you have some other reason to want Blackhawk confirmed (and if you do, please speak up), I don't think he should automatically be our lynch candidate for today.
Hatstand
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9/21/2013 3:02:49 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 9/21/2013 2:14:17 PM, drafterman wrote:
aside from my single post, i really didnt pay attention to the pregame phase. im going over it now. i think mafia would want that ability more than town, since it spares them from a mislynch.

And your conclusions?
Bullish
Posts: 3,527
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9/21/2013 3:28:25 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 9/21/2013 2:50:37 PM, Hatstand wrote:
At 9/21/2013 2:03:30 PM, Khaos_Mage wrote:
VTL Blackhawk

To force him to use his governor ability as promised DP1.

Isn't that rather silly? If he doesn't use it on DP1, we'll lynch him for lying in order to get the governor role. If we go through with this with another target, we get at least one affiliation confirmation (the target or Blackhawk) as well as a probably partial role-confirmation on Blackhawk (which isn't affiliation confirmation but is better than nothing.)

Personally, I think the odds that he was lying are very slim, as this power is so easy to prove. Unless you have some other reason to want Blackhawk confirmed (and if you do, please speak up), I don't think he should automatically be our lynch candidate for today.

It would make sure that this anti-town governor ability is used, while ensuring as little information be revealed as possible.
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Hatstand
Posts: 2,673
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9/21/2013 3:43:49 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 9/21/2013 3:28:25 PM, Bullish wrote:
At 9/21/2013 2:50:37 PM, Hatstand wrote:
At 9/21/2013 2:03:30 PM, Khaos_Mage wrote:
VTL Blackhawk

To force him to use his governor ability as promised DP1.

Isn't that rather silly? If he doesn't use it on DP1, we'll lynch him for lying in order to get the governor role. If we go through with this with another target, we get at least one affiliation confirmation (the target or Blackhawk) as well as a probably partial role-confirmation on Blackhawk (which isn't affiliation confirmation but is better than nothing.)

Personally, I think the odds that he was lying are very slim, as this power is so easy to prove. Unless you have some other reason to want Blackhawk confirmed (and if you do, please speak up), I don't think he should automatically be our lynch candidate for today.

It would make sure that this anti-town governor ability is used, while ensuring as little information be revealed as possible.

So the object is to avoid revealing anything? Then why did we elect a governor in the first place? And as I explained, we don't need to lynch Blackhawk to ensure the governor's power is used DP1.

Also, a confirmation is a powerful thing. We need to think carefully about who we confirm.
TN05
Posts: 4,492
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9/21/2013 4:06:48 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 9/21/2013 3:43:49 PM, Hatstand wrote:
At 9/21/2013 3:28:25 PM, Bullish wrote:
At 9/21/2013 2:50:37 PM, Hatstand wrote:
At 9/21/2013 2:03:30 PM, Khaos_Mage wrote:
VTL Blackhawk

To force him to use his governor ability as promised DP1.

Isn't that rather silly? If he doesn't use it on DP1, we'll lynch him for lying in order to get the governor role. If we go through with this with another target, we get at least one affiliation confirmation (the target or Blackhawk) as well as a probably partial role-confirmation on Blackhawk (which isn't affiliation confirmation but is better than nothing.)

Personally, I think the odds that he was lying are very slim, as this power is so easy to prove. Unless you have some other reason to want Blackhawk confirmed (and if you do, please speak up), I don't think he should automatically be our lynch candidate for today.

It would make sure that this anti-town governor ability is used, while ensuring as little information be revealed as possible.

So the object is to avoid revealing anything? Then why did we elect a governor in the first place? And as I explained, we don't need to lynch Blackhawk to ensure the governor's power is used DP1.

Also, a confirmation is a powerful thing. We need to think carefully about who we confirm.

The way I see it, confirmation of anyone is a good thing. We have a very large game (15 players) with two mafia factions (3 each, 6 total), and knowing who town is would certainly help get rid of possible scum. At the same time, there is a risk that mafia would target that player (in this case Blackhawk) in the game, but IMO the two mafias are going to want to eliminate each other first. We need to judge very carefully if revealing someone is worth the risk of stopping a lynch and giving mafia free night kills.
blackhawk1331
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9/21/2013 4:39:41 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 9/21/2013 2:03:30 PM, Khaos_Mage wrote:
VTL Blackhawk

To force him to use his governor ability as promised DP1.

What is voting for me going to accomplish? If I save my self, we have one person confirmed. If I save someone else, then we have one person confirmed, and one partially confirmed. That's been the plan the entire time.

Also, as I understand it from talking with TA, we can either lynch someone, and I save them, or we can just have them half way to being lynched, and I end the dp there. As long as one person has more votes than anyone else, they'll be revealed. Just to be safe, though, can you confirm that either way would prevent the death, TA?

Finally, I would personally be in favor of choosing a more experienced player, such as drafter, to use the ability on. Either we have an experienced player confirmed, or we catch scum that could've really hurt us in the long run.
Because you said it was a waste, numb nuts. - Drafter

So fvck you. :) - TV

Use prima facie correctly or not at all. - Noumena
Khaos_Mage
Posts: 23,214
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9/21/2013 5:02:25 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
I'm confused and I have to go to work.

Unvote

Blackhawk, are you saying you only reveal the player's affiliation that you pardon? I thought you were able to choose a player to reveal when you used the govern role.
My work here is, finally, done.
Bullish
Posts: 3,527
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9/21/2013 5:16:38 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At this point, certain forms of information, such as affiliation confirmation, hurts Town more than it helps. We must remember that since we have two mafia factions, an affiliation confirmation of a town gives information to two anti town factions -- whereas in a regular game, the mafia gains no information.

We have a massive number of scum to deal with. Lynching is NOT going to be enough, especially if we give up the DP1 lynch. It is a necessity to have the scum kill each other. The only way to do so is to force them into Prisoner's Dilemma and hope they make the "rational" choice. To force them into that position, town must be rendered, at least superficially, inconsequential. We can't do that by having confirmations and giving out free information.

I was counting on the likelihood that the Mafia teams had the intuitive but untrue belief that any role in the hands of Town could be bad for them. If they hold this belief, they would have definitely voted for a VTNG or voted for a team mate. That's why I wanted to pick out the people who did not VTG. I was kind of also counting on giving a Vigilante or some town killing role a confirmed kill, if we do indeed hit scum on DP1. This Vig would kill without wasting lynches or risking hitting town.

But, even that might be too risky. History has taught us how incredibly often the weak force wins out because the strong factions are dueling each other. It is especially true for this Mafia game, since neither faction gain anything relative to the other mafia team by killing town.

Since my proposed VTNG did not go through, I'm going to have to choose betweenthe other two options: limiting the information flow, or try really hard to hit scum immediately while relying on the existence of a Vig. I'm going with first one until somebody slips badly.

UNVOTE VTL blackhawk.
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TN05
Posts: 4,492
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9/21/2013 5:55:55 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 9/21/2013 4:39:41 PM, blackhawk1331 wrote:
At 9/21/2013 2:03:30 PM, Khaos_Mage wrote:
VTL Blackhawk

To force him to use his governor ability as promised DP1.

What is voting for me going to accomplish? If I save my self, we have one person confirmed. If I save someone else, then we have one person confirmed, and one partially confirmed. That's been the plan the entire time.

Also, as I understand it from talking with TA, we can either lynch someone, and I save them, or we can just have them half way to being lynched, and I end the dp there. As long as one person has more votes than anyone else, they'll be revealed. Just to be safe, though, can you confirm that either way would prevent the death, TA?

Finally, I would personally be in favor of choosing a more experienced player, such as drafter, to use the ability on. Either we have an experienced player confirmed, or we catch scum that could've really hurt us in the long run.

If we are going to do a pardon outside of Blackhawk, this is a good idea. Drafterman would probably be the ideal target here: he knows a lot about mafia, is the most experienced player, and is persuasive enough to swing DP lynches. I'll go ahead and cast my vote on this matter for now:

VTL Drafterman per Blackhawk's idea
TN05
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9/21/2013 6:01:17 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
Keep in mind that there is only a 40% chance any given player we target is mafia at this point. If he isn't mafia, there is a good chance he won't be targeted because the two mafias will be wanting to eliminate each other first.
drafterman
Posts: 18,870
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9/21/2013 6:41:57 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
I'm inclined to believe blackhawk. In as much as his role is concerned. I don't see any reason to preclude the idea that TA would have given such a mechanic to scum (kudos to TA for the idea, I like it so far).

Several things are triggering the ol' spidey sense though:

1. People who participated in the pregame phase (after blackhawk proposed his idea) but didn't go along with it (namely Lannan).

2. People who voted blackhawk because of his idea, but voted him (Khaos)

3. Bullish. I'm not sure I follow his reasoning or why it leads to his vote on Blackhawk.

As far as blackhawk's idea, I'm still debating the merits, but I'm inclined to go with it. I'd like to hear him speak more of it first. Is it role and affiliation, or one or the other? When is it revealed?
TN05
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9/21/2013 7:08:38 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 9/21/2013 6:41:57 PM, drafterman wrote:
I'm inclined to believe blackhawk. In as much as his role is concerned. I don't see any reason to preclude the idea that TA would have given such a mechanic to scum (kudos to TA for the idea, I like it so far).

Several things are triggering the ol' spidey sense though:

1. People who participated in the pregame phase (after blackhawk proposed his idea) but didn't go along with it (namely Lannan).

2. People who voted blackhawk because of his idea, but voted him (Khaos)

3. Bullish. I'm not sure I follow his reasoning or why it leads to his vote on Blackhawk.

As far as blackhawk's idea, I'm still debating the merits, but I'm inclined to go with it. I'd like to hear him speak more of it first. Is it role and affiliation, or one or the other? When is it revealed?

According to what he said in the pre-game thread, it shows their affiliation DP1.
blackhawk1331
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9/21/2013 7:09:10 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 9/21/2013 5:02:25 PM, Khaos_Mage wrote:
I'm confused and I have to go to work.

Unvote

Blackhawk, are you saying you only reveal the player's affiliation that you pardon? I thought you were able to choose a player to reveal when you used the govern role.

No, it's the person I save from being lynched. It's always been the person I save from being lynched.
Because you said it was a waste, numb nuts. - Drafter

So fvck you. :) - TV

Use prima facie correctly or not at all. - Noumena
blackhawk1331
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9/21/2013 7:33:39 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 9/21/2013 6:41:57 PM, drafterman wrote:
I'm inclined to believe blackhawk. In as much as his role is concerned. I don't see any reason to preclude the idea that TA would have given such a mechanic to scum (kudos to TA for the idea, I like it so far).

Several things are triggering the ol' spidey sense though:

1. People who participated in the pregame phase (after blackhawk proposed his idea) but didn't go along with it (namely Lannan).

2. People who voted blackhawk because of his idea, but voted him (Khaos)

3. Bullish. I'm not sure I follow his reasoning or why it leads to his vote on Blackhawk.

As far as blackhawk's idea, I'm still debating the merits, but I'm inclined to go with it. I'd like to hear him speak more of it first. Is it role and affiliation, or one or the other? When is it revealed?

It'd be their affiliation. It's pretty clear on that. Nothing is stated on roles, so I think it's safe to assume that no role is revealed. I'll ask, though.

Not really relevant to this game in particular, but why does lannan sign-up even though he never ends up playing?
Because you said it was a waste, numb nuts. - Drafter

So fvck you. :) - TV

Use prima facie correctly or not at all. - Noumena
blackhawk1331
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9/21/2013 7:37:59 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
@Bullish, you realize that, no matter who we confirm, there's only going to be one confirmed townie. Confirming that part of my role in no way confirms my affiliation. As a town role, it can help confirm a townie. As a mafia role, it can help find a member of the opposite mafia. If we pick me, then my affiliation and part of my role are confirmed. If we pick someone else, then their affiliation and part of my role are confirmed. Either way, we only have one affiliation confirmation. That's what should be concerning to the mafia, if anything about my role should be, considering that my partial role confirmation still leaves the possibility for me to be scum. With only one town confirmed, there's only one person for potential protective roles to kill.
Because you said it was a waste, numb nuts. - Drafter

So fvck you. :) - TV

Use prima facie correctly or not at all. - Noumena
blackhawk1331
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9/21/2013 7:39:31 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 9/21/2013 7:09:10 PM, blackhawk1331 wrote:
At 9/21/2013 5:02:25 PM, Khaos_Mage wrote:
I'm confused and I have to go to work.

Unvote

Blackhawk, are you saying you only reveal the player's affiliation that you pardon? I thought you were able to choose a player to reveal when you used the govern role.

No, it's the person I save from being lynched. It's always been the person I save from being lynched.

My first post:

At 9/20/2013 3:27:21 PM, blackhawk1331 wrote:
Does anyone get any special abilities from becoming the governor, or is that just me? I'm not quite sure how it fits in with my character and whatnot (still waiting on clarification on most of my role), but if I'm the governor, then if/when I save someone from a lynch (I presume by ending in a no lynch), their alignment will be revealed publicly. We could use this to confirm someone's affiliation, and part of my role. VTG Blackhawk
Because you said it was a waste, numb nuts. - Drafter

So fvck you. :) - TV

Use prima facie correctly or not at all. - Noumena
Bullish
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9/21/2013 7:48:45 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 9/21/2013 6:41:57 PM, drafterman wrote:
I'm inclined to believe blackhawk. In as much as his role is concerned. I don't see any reason to preclude the idea that TA would have given such a mechanic to scum (kudos to TA for the idea, I like it so far).

Several things are triggering the ol' spidey sense though:

1. People who participated in the pregame phase (after blackhawk proposed his idea) but didn't go along with it (namely Lannan).

2. People who voted blackhawk because of his idea, but voted him (Khaos)

3. Bullish. I'm not sure I follow his reasoning or why it leads to his vote on Blackhawk.

As far as blackhawk's idea, I'm still debating the merits, but I'm inclined to go with it. I'd like to hear him speak more of it first. Is it role and affiliation, or one or the other? When is it revealed?

Regardless of roles or this Governor thing, what are your thoughts on 2 mafia factions in general? Obviously there are huge differences. Questions I think you should think about and answer include but are not limited to:

What's the most pro town play style?
What would the mafias do?
How would depriving information from the mafias affect their play style?
How does town get rid of scum that represent twice the usual of the population?
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Bullish
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9/21/2013 7:54:33 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 9/21/2013 7:37:59 PM, blackhawk1331 wrote:
@Bullish, you realize that, no matter who we confirm, there's only going to be one confirmed townie. Confirming that part of my role in no way confirms my affiliation. As a town role, it can help confirm a townie. As a mafia role, it can help find a member of the opposite mafia. If we pick me, then my affiliation and part of my role are confirmed. If we pick someone else, then their affiliation and part of my role are confirmed. Either way, we only have one affiliation confirmation. That's what should be concerning to the mafia, if anything about my role should be, considering that my partial role confirmation still leaves the possibility for me to be scum. With only one town confirmed, there's only one person for potential protective roles to kill.

That's one of the reasons why we need to force you to use your ability. I'm glad you admit that your own affiliation won't be confirmed or be close to confirmed. If you are scum, you can make a lynch happen today and eliminate one of your enemies, then save yourself one more time. That's 2 DPs in your favor.
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TN05
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9/21/2013 8:29:27 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
We need to tread carefully when lynching with future DPs after this. Right now we seem to be leaning towards foregoing lynching a player in exchange for learning the affiliation of one player, which would in theory present a 40% chance of finding a mafioso - this saves the trouble of scumhunting, but also foregoes what is typically the greatest asset of town (the lynch mechanic).

Lynching is going to be a lot less important early on in this game, because town is very disadvantaged in initial numbers. Because there are two mafias, however, the normal win condition of a 50/50 mafia-town split for mafia victory also requires the elimination of the other mafia, meaning as we advance in the game the odds of a town victory may actually increase, provided a mafia is not eliminated entirely. For example, say we have 4 players left (2 town, 1 mafia A and 1 mafia B) - town is actually favored. The two mafias are essentially in a Mexican standoff, a no-win situation that would be incredibly hard to resolve in favor of the mafia.

The ideal scenario for town in this game is for both mafias to survive up until the endgame, because the mafias have to eliminate each other to win. At that point, town effectively takes control of the game and it would be very hard for either mafia to win. The dilemma here is that everyone (town and mafia alike know this) so in theory both mafias will focus on killing each other early on, not town. However, if the mafias decimate each other and town still has a ton of players left, town is also favored, meaning the mafias will have to kill towns.

It is certainly a calculated risk to confirm any player, but I think we need to do this to keep the mafias on their feet. The issues that would be raised from confirmation affect mafia far more than town, because town ultimately knows what to do while the mafias have to play the WIFOM game.
OhHello
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9/21/2013 9:18:11 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
Drafterman definitely seems to be the best target for the use of this power. However we can't be entirely sure that Blackhawk is telling the truth or the full truth. If being the Governor allows him 1 specific power, then it wouldn't be that surprising if it gave him multiple powers. Unfortunately I didn't notice the Pre-game phase until it had already gone through, or else I probably would have put that forward...

However, since Blackhawk is already the governor, VTL Drafterman seems to be the best course of action.

Also, what sort of roles are enabled in this game? I'm going to guess that this isn't going to be a vanilla-vs-mafia-goon style game, as the odd addition of the Governor & Blackhawk's ability as well as my own abilities. However, is there any chance of there being a third party (fourth party?) member like SK in this game? Because that would make a horrendously confusing addition, which would kinda tie in with what I currently know about the roles at play.
TN05
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9/21/2013 9:37:34 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 9/21/2013 9:18:11 PM, OhHello wrote:
Drafterman definitely seems to be the best target for the use of this power. However we can't be entirely sure that Blackhawk is telling the truth or the full truth. If being the Governor allows him 1 specific power, then it wouldn't be that surprising if it gave him multiple powers. Unfortunately I didn't notice the Pre-game phase until it had already gone through, or else I probably would have put that forward...

However, since Blackhawk is already the governor, VTL Drafterman seems to be the best course of action.

Also, what sort of roles are enabled in this game? I'm going to guess that this isn't going to be a vanilla-vs-mafia-goon style game, as the odd addition of the Governor & Blackhawk's ability as well as my own abilities. However, is there any chance of there being a third party (fourth party?) member like SK in this game? Because that would make a horrendously confusing addition, which would kinda tie in with what I currently know about the roles at play.

No. This is an open-setup game, meaning certain aspects of the game were made known beforehand. In this case, TA made known in the opening thread that the game will have 15 players, 9 of which are town, 3 of which are mafia A, and 3 of which are mafia B. Therefore, there is no possibility of there being third parties in this game unless TA is lying to us, which would make him a bastard mod.
OhHello
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9/21/2013 9:42:16 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 9/21/2013 9:37:34 PM, TN05 wrote:
No. This is an open-setup game, meaning certain aspects of the game were made known beforehand. In this case, TA made known in the opening thread that the game will have 15 players, 9 of which are town, 3 of which are mafia A, and 3 of which are mafia B. Therefore, there is no possibility of there being third parties in this game unless TA is lying to us, which would make him a bastard mod.

Fantastic. So all we have to focus on is finding the mafia, whilst hiding the town. If mafia members are found first then they can kill each other off as well as the town lynching them.