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Philosophers Mafia III Endgame

Noumena
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9/30/2013 9:37:16 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
Town wins. Scum lose. No SK (obvi).

Characters/Roles

1. Sparkies- You are Jacques Derrida. You are a role cop. Each night, you may investigate a player in the game and learn their role. Mafia Goons and Vanilla Townies will both investigate as "Vanilla". You win with the town.

2. Draftsr/F-282 (2) (replaced TA)- You are Roland Barthes. You are a town hider. Each night, you can choose to Hide behind a player in the game, which will protect you in the event you'd ordinarily be targeted for a nightkill.
If you Hide behind a player who is to be nightkilled, you'll die along with them.
If you Hide behind a Mafia member or a Serial Killer, you'll also die. You win with the town.

3. Shadowguynick- You are Richard Rorty. You are a vanilla townie. Your weapon is your vote, you have no night action. You win with the town.

4. Khaos_Mage- You are Jurgen Habermas. You are a mafia goon. You have no night action and win with the mafia.

5. Blackhawk (replaced Bossy)- You are Michel Foucault. You are the doctor. Each night you may protect a player from a night kill. You win with the town.

6. NightofCats- You are Jean-Paul Sartre. You are a vanilla townie. Your weapon is your vote, you have no night action. You win with the town.

TN05- Karl Marx- mafia JOAT- 1x roleblock, 1x strongman, 1x ninja
Jon- Jean Francois-Lyotard- vanilla townie
Ft/Yraelz- Frederic Jameson- 1x bus driver- mafia
Johnny- Ferdinand de Saussure- vanilla townie
Drafterman- Jean Baudrillard- vanilla townie
Budda- Friedrich Nietzsche- vigilante- town
Hatstand- Judith Butler- vanilla townie

Thoughts/Clarifications

-As I said in Dp1, I used a JK9++ variable role setup from epicmafia (http://wiki.mafiascum.net...). I also mentioned that I made one change. The change would have been rather easy to see (from scum's standpoint) if a mass claim had actually gone through. With 1 hider, 1 protective, 1 killing, and 1 flavor cop, we're left with TTT. The scum setup for this would have been two mafia goons, a mafia JOAT, and an SK. However, with so many non-NA townies I thought this would too upset the balance of power between the respective factions. So I changed it to mafia goon, mafia JOAT, mafia bus driver + an extra vanilla townie. I told the mafia I changed their configuration (but not from what) early on in the game.

-Inactivity by town poorly affected game play (I know- I'll get to my inactivity F-49239). Jon, NightCats, Sparkies, and Shadowguy were virtually unheard of for most of the game with Blackhawk posting sporadically in and out. I posted in their PM's asking for more activity but to no avail. Finally I posted in the signup thread asking for replacements (at the beginning of Dp4) with only TUF posting a possible availability when the game had all but wrapped up.

-Town was in an almost assured position after Drafter/F-40390 replaced back in. Given the massive inactivity amongst most of the town, Drafter and F-4939 had most of their interactions with TN05 and Khaos and given their somewhat poor plays Drafter and F-54939 had them both pegged pretty quickly. Replacements by Budda and Johnny or the inclusion of TUF would have completely changed that. There was only one mislynch (which ironically imo ended up swinging the game in town's favor).

-I wasn't active enough, going a few days between calling the Dp or responding to NA's. This seemed to make Drafter and F-5939 more annoyed than anyone else, most likely owing to the fact that they nailed scum shortly after they replaced back in! I apologize for that and will act accordingly in the future.

-Affiliation was loosely based on modernism/Marxism vs. postmodernism/poststructuralism. It saddened me that there wasn't as much (read: basically nil) speculation as to how to determine affiliation from character. Big change from Philosophers I where Budda cornered it. I through a few (unappreciated :() curve balls in. Sartre is allied with the town even though he could be categorized closer to the scum category. Barthes was a structuralist as opposed to a poststructuralist as was Saussure and Nietzsche was more of a poststructuralist precursor than a contemporary thinker (most townies were born in the twentieth century). The under utilization of this aspect was disappointing but understandable given how quickly scum got nabbed.

-I'm not at a computer that saves anything so I have to postpone posting the scum PM until I'm to one that can.

Night Actions

Np1:

Sparkies role cops Ft/Yraelz, was bussed with Budda and got results that Budda was the vig
Blackhawk (then Bossy) protects Hatstand, was unsuccessful given that TN05 used his strongman ability
Budda attempted to vig Ft/Yraelz but was bussed and ended up killing himself
TA (Drafter/F-493) didn't turn in an NA and was skipped
FT/Yraelz bus drove themselves with Budda
TN05 used his strongkill to NK Hatstand

Np2:

Sparkies role cops Johnny, gets results
Blackhawk protects Drafter/F-05939
Drafter/F-59239 hid behind Shadow
Khaos killed Johnny
TN05 roleblocked Shadow

Np3:

Sparkies role cops Khaos, gets results as vanilla given that Khaos is a goon
Blackhawks protects Shadow
Drafter/F-2058322 waived
Khaos killed Jon (he doesn't like people with that name apparently)
: At 5/13/2014 7:05:20 PM, Crescendo wrote:
: The difference is that the gay movement is currently pushing their will on Churches, as shown in the link to gay marriage in Denmark. Meanwhile, the Inquisition ended several centuries ago.
drafterman
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9/30/2013 10:00:18 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
I was annoyed, yes, but I think F16 was more vocal about it. Not to belabor the point, but it is frustrating to have the game figured out and to not be able to act on it. It was more our own exuberance in coming back in to crush the mafia.

I spoke with TA (after the game was over) and he did lie. He knew he was under pressure and he felt he had to claim with some results in order to avoid being mislynched. He chose Jon because he town-read Jon and was planning on hiding behind him anyway before he got replaced.

He seems genuinely sorry that me and F16 replaced into that, as he never intended to be replaced. Personally I don't think it was a big deal, but at least it is cleared up.
drafterman
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9/30/2013 10:01:21 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
@Noumena:

We started analyzing claims DP1, but it became a moot point once the scum outed themselves. I was planning on doing some analysis after the mass claim, but we basically decided it was pointless.

I don't even know if Khaos fake claimed or if it was a good one.
drafterman
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9/30/2013 10:08:27 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
If there were two big lessons here (following up from earlier) they would be:

1. Know when to hold them, know when to fold them, Mafia. Yeah, we had the mafia mentioned in DP1, but it was behavior in subsequent DPs that really sold it for us. To wit: TN05's complete and utter refusal to vote FT/Yraelz in DP2 and Khaos' twisted and changing logic trying to peg us as scum DP3 is really what sold us. If TN05 had switched from blackhawk to FT early on and Khaos hadn't tried to peg us as scum, it would have been a very different game. I was dead set on Town reading blackhawk based on TN05's behavior alone and we were still debating between Jon/NOTC/Khaos as scumteam before we decided on Khaos.

2. For the love of god, Town, how is it that Sparkies was the only one to follow up on stuff? I know Khaos criticized him for just parroting but if you have scum, you have scum, it doesn't matter how you got there. I know people think I'm crazy for wanting quick and decisive DPs but, as F16 showed, we named all the mafia in DP1, but the only reason the Town followed up on that was because we replaced back in and threw a tantrum to get everyone else to jump in. This is mainly directed at blackhawk. You're good, but sometimes you paralyzed yourself into indecision in trying to analyze every single angle. Sometimes you just gotta go with it, man. My main dread each phase was whether or not you'd be on board with the lynch and having to convince you.
TN05
Posts: 4,492
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9/30/2013 10:55:33 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
As bad as the last two days were, I'm still pretty stoked that our bus drive of Budda worked. XP

Good game town, you deserve the win.
F-16_Fighting_Falcon
Posts: 18,324
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9/30/2013 11:19:42 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
Yeah, I was indeed the vocal one about the inactivity, I don't think drafterman mentioned anything about being annoyed before now. Noumena, don't worry about it now. What's done is done. Real life is more important than mafia. Just make sure you have sufficient free time before modding your next game. As for the inactivity of players, that was a little disappointing as well.

I liked the game itself and the setup. I think it was balanced and relied on player skill. Had drafter and I not replaced back in, I think mafia stood a good chance of winning.

Yeah, TA's gambit was a bad one but I agree with drafter now that it might have come from a sincere place (not trolling). I still recommend not doing stuff like this unless you know exactly what you are doing. It doesn't help to make your slot look suspicious and makes it more difficult for town to discern who the mafia are. Following standard norms makes things so much more straightforward.

Sparkies was really the only one in the town who went after the mafia early DP2. It was obvious from DP1 that FT/Y were mafia and it was shocking to see how town were completely without direction and just flailing. JonMilne's gambit was absolutely pointless and I spent a ton of time re-reading the game and making notes of his posts to determine if he could be scum despite saying in DP1 that I thought he was town. I think town's main problem was a lack of pro-activeness. No one took charge of the game and pushed for an FT/Y lynch. It was as if they needed a leader. Fortunately drafter and I were able to fill that role. I will say though that Sparkies played an excellent game DP2 onwards. Hatstand was another player that stood out to me on DP1. Had she been alive, I think town would likely have won even if there were no replacements.

I have a few thoughts on mafia theory that I won't get into detail but want to outline here. Mafia win through mislynches. Directly or indirectly, they need to achieve a set number of mislynches to gain majority. In most games with mafia wins, mafia focusses on deception and trying to get town to lynch town while looking pro-town themselves. Mafia in this game completely turned that around and overtly tried to push a mislynch using all of their resources, their credibility, and their trust they got from the town. I think the players on the DP1 lynch were:

JonMilne - town, unreasonably FOSsed us but could be excused because he is Jon
FT/Y - mafia, lied about meta and in-game actions
TN05 - mafia, called for a policy-lynch
Khaos - mafia, contrived reasoning
Sparkies - town, bandwagoning
Johnny - town, wrong but put in sincere effort
Hatstand - town, hammered at deadline

The major bulk of the votes came from mafia with town never really convinced (besides Jon). I think it was an interesting scenario which shows how in the short term, anything goes. I think the best time to make these sorts of pushes are towards MYLO/LYLO and I wonder why they didn't wait to try it because it actually might have worked. Mafia's failure was in jumping the gun and coming out with overtly anti-town analysis right away which successfully got them a mislynch but exposed them.

I think page 4 of DP1 showed FT with some of most contrived analysis of the game "F-16, are you scum?" followed by "drafter is clearly not mafia. Third party?"

Those two statements were the most contrived ones I've seen and it was really that that made me 100% sure that you two were scum, and from then on, it was a matter of gathering additional evidence and figuring out who your buddies were. For TN05, the most damning statement was the "policy lynch." I suspected him even before that but it was just a hunch and I could have been persuaded otherwise.

One final thing: I wrote up a huge meta-case on FT in our role PM but decided not to post it because I didn't believe town would actually read it. With a more experienced playerlist, I would have done so.
Khaos_Mage
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9/30/2013 12:04:13 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 9/30/2013 10:01:21 AM, drafterman wrote:
@Noumena:

We started analyzing claims DP1, but it became a moot point once the scum outed themselves. I was planning on doing some analysis after the mass claim, but we basically decided it was pointless.

I don't even know if Khaos fake claimed or if it was a good one.

I claimed my real character.
My work here is, finally, done.
Khaos_Mage
Posts: 23,214
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9/30/2013 12:27:09 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 9/30/2013 10:08:27 AM, drafterman wrote:
If there were two big lessons here (following up from earlier) they would be:

1. Know when to hold them, know when to fold them, Mafia. Yeah, we had the mafia mentioned in DP1, but it was behavior in subsequent DPs that really sold it for us. To wit: TN05's complete and utter refusal to vote FT/Yraelz in DP2 and Khaos' twisted and changing logic trying to peg us as scum DP3 is really what sold us. If TN05 had switched from blackhawk to FT early on and Khaos hadn't tried to peg us as scum, it would have been a very different game. I was dead set on Town reading blackhawk based on TN05's behavior alone and we were still debating between Jon/NOTC/Khaos as scumteam before we decided on Khaos.

Well, had TA not lied, I wouldn't have pushed for your lynch.
I am very surprised that people gave him so much credit, but then again, a lot of them seemed inactive.

2. For the love of god, Town, how is it that Sparkies was the only one to follow up on stuff? I know Khaos criticized him for just parroting but if you have scum, you have scum, it doesn't matter how you got there. I know people think I'm crazy for wanting quick and decisive DPs but, as F16 showed, we named all the mafia in DP1, but the only reason the Town followed up on that was because we replaced back in and threw a tantrum to get everyone else to jump in. This is mainly directed at blackhawk. You're good, but sometimes you paralyzed yourself into indecision in trying to analyze every single angle. Sometimes you just gotta go with it, man. My main dread each phase was whether or not you'd be on board with the lynch and having to convince you.

I disagree about Sparkies though.
Parroting it, and not even committing to it beyond FT or offering any reads of his own it bad town play, in my opinion. It is easily to do as scum, if the reads are in your favor, and a free pass on defending yourself/making a case.
My work here is, finally, done.
Khaos_Mage
Posts: 23,214
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9/30/2013 12:36:55 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 9/30/2013 11:19:42 AM, F-16_Fighting_Falcon wrote:
Yeah, I was indeed the vocal one about the inactivity, I don't think drafterman mentioned anything about being annoyed before now. Noumena, don't worry about it now. What's done is done. Real life is more important than mafia. Just make sure you have sufficient free time before modding your next game. As for the inactivity of players, that was a little disappointing as well.

I liked the game itself and the setup. I think it was balanced and relied on player skill. Had drafter and I not replaced back in, I think mafia stood a good chance of winning.

Yeah, TA's gambit was a bad one but I agree with drafter now that it might have come from a sincere place (not trolling). I still recommend not doing stuff like this unless you know exactly what you are doing. It doesn't help to make your slot look suspicious and makes it more difficult for town to discern who the mafia are. Following standard norms makes things so much more straightforward.

His gambit did give me the rope to hang myself with, though.
Had he not lied, I would have left you be, because Drafter specifically stated that liars are probably scum and exposed the lie (which he thought was a mistake), which I picked up on.
As town, I would have come after you just as hard for that. However, I may have voted TN05 first. I'm not sure...

Sparkies was really the only one in the town who went after the mafia early DP2. It was obvious from DP1 that FT/Y were mafia and it was shocking to see how town were completely without direction and just flailing. JonMilne's gambit was absolutely pointless and I spent a ton of time re-reading the game and making notes of his posts to determine if he could be scum despite saying in DP1 that I thought he was town. I think town's main problem was a lack of pro-activeness. No one took charge of the game and pushed for an FT/Y lynch. It was as if they needed a leader. Fortunately drafter and I were able to fill that role. I will say though that Sparkies played an excellent game DP2 onwards. Hatstand was another player that stood out to me on DP1. Had she been alive, I think town would likely have won even if there were no replacements.
I'll have to reread Sparkies' contribution, as I thought he didn't do much, except for reposting your reads. His refusal to defend them was annoying.

Hat was strongmanned to ensure the kill, because she was so town it hurt and I expected a doc protection.

I have a few thoughts on mafia theory that I won't get into detail but want to outline here. Mafia win through mislynches. Directly or indirectly, they need to achieve a set number of mislynches to gain majority. In most games with mafia wins, mafia focusses on deception and trying to get town to lynch town while looking pro-town themselves. Mafia in this game completely turned that around and overtly tried to push a mislynch using all of their resources, their credibility, and their trust they got from the town. I think the players on the DP1 lynch were:

JonMilne - town, unreasonably FOSsed us but could be excused because he is Jon
FT/Y - mafia, lied about meta and in-game actions
TN05 - mafia, called for a policy-lynch
Khaos - mafia, contrived reasoning
Sparkies - town, bandwagoning
Johnny - town, wrong but put in sincere effort
Hatstand - town, hammered at deadline

The major bulk of the votes came from mafia with town never really convinced (besides Jon). I think it was an interesting scenario which shows how in the short term, anything goes. I think the best time to make these sorts of pushes are towards MYLO/LYLO and I wonder why they didn't wait to try it because it actually might have worked. Mafia's failure was in jumping the gun and coming out with overtly anti-town analysis right away which successfully got them a mislynch but exposed them.

I don't know if it was part of the plan or just happened, but FT being exposed as he was ensured us a sucessful bus drive to Budda. We had eliminated the most dangerous players at the time, and were sitting pretty... until you showed up again.

I think page 4 of DP1 showed FT with some of most contrived analysis of the game "F-16, are you scum?" followed by "drafter is clearly not mafia. Third party?"

Those two statements were the most contrived ones I've seen and it was really that that made me 100% sure that you two were scum, and from then on, it was a matter of gathering additional evidence and figuring out who your buddies were. For TN05, the most damning statement was the "policy lynch." I suspected him even before that but it was just a hunch and I could have been persuaded otherwise.

One final thing: I wrote up a huge meta-case on FT in our role PM but decided not to post it because I didn't believe town would actually read it. With a more experienced playerlist, I would have done so.
My work here is, finally, done.
F-16_Fighting_Falcon
Posts: 18,324
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9/30/2013 12:54:23 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
Khaos, there is nothing wrong with going with the reads of dead players. While you may be annoyed that he didn't justify them himself, he was dead-on with his suspicions. I can see you are annoyed with the way things turned out but where you really failed at was deception. At no point did you, FT, Yraelz or TN05 attempt to convince us that you were town. That was the biggest mistake. If I was scum and accused by a townie, I'd spend a considerable amount of time trying to persuade them that they were wrong to the point where they doubt their reads. If any of the scum had done that, it would have been very difficult to catch the mafia. There were times when FT was scum that I believed him to be town for at least the first few DPs. Same when drafter was scum. Persuasion is important. If you give up the minute you are accused and start pushing against your accuser, you are very unlikely to get them to believe that you are town. And that is where you came up short. You never at any point got us to think "Player X could indeed be town. Perhaps we were wrong." (Player X being any of the mafia).

That was the same mistake the mafia made with Sparkies. After Yraelz's initial attempts at persuasion failed, FT quickly found a reason to FOS Sparkies. You guys were never going to get him to back off that way. That's pretty much the reason that 3/4 lynches this game were scum lynches. You made many of the same mistakes that you did in White Flag. The ability to persuade is very important and is a crucial part of the game.
Khaos_Mage
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9/30/2013 1:04:51 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 9/30/2013 12:54:23 PM, F-16_Fighting_Falcon wrote:
Khaos, there is nothing wrong with going with the reads of dead players. While you may be annoyed that he didn't justify them himself, he was dead-on with his suspicions. I can see you are annoyed with the way things turned out but where you really failed at was deception. At no point did you, FT, Yraelz or TN05 attempt to convince us that you were town. That was the biggest mistake. If I was scum and accused by a townie, I'd spend a considerable amount of time trying to persuade them that they were wrong to the point where they doubt their reads. If any of the scum had done that, it would have been very difficult to catch the mafia. There were times when FT was scum that I believed him to be town for at least the first few DPs. Same when drafter was scum. Persuasion is important. If you give up the minute you are accused and start pushing against your accuser, you are very unlikely to get them to believe that you are town. And that is where you came up short. You never at any point got us to think "Player X could indeed be town. Perhaps we were wrong." (Player X being any of the mafia).

That was the same mistake the mafia made with Sparkies. After Yraelz's initial attempts at persuasion failed, FT quickly found a reason to FOS Sparkies. You guys were never going to get him to back off that way. That's pretty much the reason that 3/4 lynches this game were scum lynches. You made many of the same mistakes that you did in White Flag. The ability to persuade is very important and is a crucial part of the game.

This is a big part of the reason I play so much. To better myself as a person.
However, I don't recall pushing back at you for any reason. I came at you when I did DP3 (you were looking at TN05, so what did I have to push back against?) because of TA's lie. Furthermore, I don't (perhaps I am wrong about this) see the need to justify myself to someone who is lying to me and obviously wants me dead. Many of the arguments against me were silly, IMO, but they added fuel.

My issues with Sparkies and not defending roles is, had the mafia team been you, him, and another, parroting the reads without defending them is the perfect guise to lead a lynch without ever giving a reason. He also straight up refused to defend them.

If you weren't so confident about us, would you really have let that slide? I also didn't see him "trying to figure the game out" as Drafter said, with his parroting, since even Noumena said he was largely inactive.
My work here is, finally, done.
F-16_Fighting_Falcon
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9/30/2013 1:15:52 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
It wasn't a "lie" as I explained several times. It was not something suspicious or something that a townie would find suspicious. You think you are justified in pushing on it, yet explain this to me: why did all the townies drop it and lynch TN05 and you instead? Why did they not push for our lynch, vote us or FOS us? The simply answer is that our revealing and clarifying what TA did is not something that was likely to come from scum at all. This is why townies didn't suspect us. If you truly believe that you would have done this as town, you would be the exception because none of the other townies would have agreed with you.

Drafter explained already how you could have easily won this. When we were pushing against TN05, you could have bussed the fvck out of him for being obvious scum. If you bussed hard enough and convincingly enough, you had a pretty NOTC mislynch waiting ready for you. After that, it would be MYLO and you and Jon would both push each other giving you about 50% chance of victory depending on whether you could convince us that Jon was scum.

My issues with Sparkies and not defending roles is, had the mafia team been you, him, and another, parroting the reads without defending them is the perfect guise to lead a lynch without ever giving a reason. He also straight up refused to defend them.

Speculation. If this was even remotely valid, why did none of the town think this? It is because it was so unlikely and it was so obvious that we and Sparkies were town. Your goal should have been to insert yourself in that town bloc and distance from both your teammates.

If you weren't so confident about us, would you really have let that slide? I also didn't see him "trying to figure the game out" as Drafter said, with his parroting, since even Noumena said he was largely inactive.

But WHY were we confident about you? Ask yourself that. It comes down to persuasion. For what it is worth, I'll say this Khaos: out of the three scum, you were the hardest to catch and last to be lynched so at least you played the best.
Khaos_Mage
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9/30/2013 1:37:36 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 9/30/2013 1:15:52 PM, F-16_Fighting_Falcon wrote:
It wasn't a "lie" as I explained several times. It was not something suspicious or something that a townie would find suspicious.
It was a lie. Drafter said so here. However, he didn't know until after the game was over.

You think you are justified in pushing on it, yet explain this to me: why did all the townies drop it and lynch TN05 and you instead? Why did they not push for our lynch, vote us or FOS us? The simply answer is that our revealing and clarifying what TA did is not something that was likely to come from scum at all. This is why townies didn't suspect us. If you truly believe that you would have done this as town, you would be the exception because none of the other townies would have agreed with you.

The fact that I perceived it as a lie is why I legitimately thought you were SK. Plus, the brushing off the lie, the justification that TA is a troll but never cited evidence of him lying about results, and I don't think many of the other townies were really thinking much and/or were intimadated by you two.

Drafter explained already how you could have easily won this. When we were pushing against TN05, you could have bussed the fvck out of him for being obvious scum. If you bussed hard enough and convincingly enough, you had a pretty NOTC mislynch waiting ready for you. After that, it would be MYLO and you and Jon would both push each other giving you about 50% chance of victory depending on whether you could convince us that Jon was scum.

I'm not saying I could have played better, and there were different things I could have done. That is obvious. Hell, one could make the argument I should have done things differently only because it didn't work.

My frustration is being pegged for scum for (largely) innocent things I do.
If I truly made a mistake I will own up to it, but I don't like being pegged as scum for something like my redundancy or thinking you're suspicious for TA's lie.
One very big mistake I made was not bussing TN05. It was a bad idea to make that stand, even though I agree that one faction should be eliminated over another being weakened. I needed to play nicely at that point, but I was too beligerent.

My issues with Sparkies and not defending roles is, had the mafia team been you, him, and another, parroting the reads without defending them is the perfect guise to lead a lynch without ever giving a reason. He also straight up refused to defend them.

Speculation. If this was even remotely valid, why did none of the town think this? It is because it was so unlikely and it was so obvious that we and Sparkies were town. Your goal should have been to insert yourself in that town bloc and distance from both your teammates.

You're right that that should have been my goal.
However, I am pretty sure townies that piggyback and flat out refuse to offer their own analysis are hit hard by others. I am quite certain I was in earlier games. After all, isn't advice for noob mafia to lurk?

If you weren't so confident about us, would you really have let that slide? I also didn't see him "trying to figure the game out" as Drafter said, with his parroting, since even Noumena said he was largely inactive.

But WHY were we confident about you? Ask yourself that. It comes down to persuasion.
That's not my question, though.
I am asking, if there were no strong reads, and Player X parroted a good townies dying reads and added nothing more except his vote, and refused to make reads of his own upon being asked by another, would you have let that slide? I have a hard time believeing you would.

You had 3-5 suspects at that point, and you knew there could not be more than 4. By default, everyone else was town. You didn't need to concern yourself with it, because you were already confident he wasn't scum.

For what it is worth, I'll say this Khaos: out of the three scum, you were the hardest to catch and last to be lynched so at least you played the best.

Not really. I was also the most quiet.
Again, proving that suspicion arises when I speak.
The problem is the way I speak. It does not convince and it comes off poorly for some reason.

In all honesty, I was surprised no one mentioned how quiet I was DP1 and 2.
My work here is, finally, done.
Khaos_Mage
Posts: 23,214
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9/30/2013 1:47:16 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
Just in case I am coming off as ungrateful, I do appreciate the advice.

I know one of these is true:
1. I am a bit insane
2. Something is lost in translation from brain to mouth to audience
3. Both

After 31 years, it is increasingly frustrating to not get people to listen to you, regardless of the reason.
My work here is, finally, done.
F-16_Fighting_Falcon
Posts: 18,324
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9/30/2013 1:55:38 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
Khaos, I agree that you are often initially suspected as scum even when you are town. However, I think most good players will eventually see through it to understand your underlying motivation. In Logic's SOOL game for instance, despite FT, IFLY, and I suspecting you, we backed off and said that you were town. I remember that I at least later pushed for you being town despite your play being scummy.

This game was different and we were able to figure out you were mafia because the motivations behind your behavior was extremely scummy. TA's "lie" was not exposed by you. We revealed it. Using drafter's rule on TA makes no sense. TA doesn't have a lynch-all-liars policy as town. Saying that the town was intimidated by us is just intellectually dishonest. Town are generally not intimidated by other players and we most certainly never attempted to intimidate.

Your behavior was not "innocent." It didn't line up with the behavior of other townies. It didn't line up with what a townie would do. Your "suspicion" was fabricated. You think that town would have been suspicious of it. Evidence showed otherwise. You attempted to predict how a townie would react to it - then you made the wrong prediction. That is why you were suspected.
F-16_Fighting_Falcon
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9/30/2013 1:59:57 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 9/30/2013 1:47:16 PM, Khaos_Mage wrote:
Just in case I am coming off as ungrateful, I do appreciate the advice.

I know one of these is true:
1. I am a bit insane
2. Something is lost in translation from brain to mouth to audience
3. Both

After 31 years, it is increasingly frustrating to not get people to listen to you, regardless of the reason.

Don't worry about it. Look, you are not the first, nor will you be the last scum player who thinks they got caught for the wrong reasons. There were plenty of times even drafter and I pointed out that the reasoning used to catch us was wrong. Those games usually led to scum wins because town never had their logic work out.

It is not improbable for scum to be caught for the "wrong reasons" and I don't blame you for arguing that point. I just don't believe that that was the case here.
Khaos_Mage
Posts: 23,214
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9/30/2013 2:07:23 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 9/30/2013 1:55:38 PM, F-16_Fighting_Falcon wrote:
Khaos, I agree that you are often initially suspected as scum even when you are town. However, I think most good players will eventually see through it to understand your underlying motivation. In Logic's SOOL game for instance, despite FT, IFLY, and I suspecting you, we backed off and said that you were town. I remember that I at least later pushed for you being town despite your play being scummy.

And I still don't understand why me outing a flavored miller is scummy. SOP is to out miller, so why wouldn't I out if I think I am flavored.
Is scummy code for "poor" and/or "poorly executed/defended"?

This game was different and we were able to figure out you were mafia because the motivations behind your behavior was extremely scummy. TA's "lie" was not exposed by you. We revealed it. Using drafter's rule on TA makes no sense. TA doesn't have a lynch-all-liars policy as town. Saying that the town was intimidated by us is just intellectually dishonest. Town are generally not intimidated by other players and we most certainly never attempted to intimidate.

It's not dishonest, Drafter especially, is intimidating. He is hard to lynch. I CC'd him in a game (Romance) and he managed to get me lynched.
I don't mean intimidating by threats or insults, I mean intimidating as in you're fvcking hard to kill, even if there is a genuine scum slip. It is intimadating because it's so damn hard and exhausting. As town, I will follow the easier lynch over my gut on certain players.
At least in my experience.

As town, if I think Drafter is scum, I wait until I have hard evidence.

Your behavior was not "innocent." It didn't line up with the behavior of other townies. It didn't line up with what a townie would do. Your "suspicion" was fabricated. You think that town would have been suspicious of it. Evidence showed otherwise. You attempted to predict how a townie would react to it - then you made the wrong prediction. That is why you were suspected.

You're partly right, and as I have said, I should have bussed TN05.
But, my suspicion, while fabricated, made sense coming from me. It is something I would do. It is something, as town, I would push. That is why it is annoying I was scum read for that instance (same with white flag).

When I say "this is what you vets do", this is what I am taking about. Town (read a good player) wouldn't do/say/act the way I do, therefore the motivation is scummy. But, I am not that townie (not yet), and as such, my motivation/read should reflect that, but it isn't.
My work here is, finally, done.
Khaos_Mage
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9/30/2013 2:13:23 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 9/30/2013 1:59:57 PM, F-16_Fighting_Falcon wrote:
At 9/30/2013 1:47:16 PM, Khaos_Mage wrote:
Just in case I am coming off as ungrateful, I do appreciate the advice.

I know one of these is true:
1. I am a bit insane
2. Something is lost in translation from brain to mouth to audience
3. Both

After 31 years, it is increasingly frustrating to not get people to listen to you, regardless of the reason.

Don't worry about it. Look, you are not the first, nor will you be the last scum player who thinks they got caught for the wrong reasons. There were plenty of times even drafter and I pointed out that the reasoning used to catch us was wrong. Those games usually led to scum wins because town never had their logic work out.

It is not improbable for scum to be caught for the "wrong reasons" and I don't blame you for arguing that point. I just don't believe that that was the case here.

No, TN05 was a legitimate catch, and frankly, enough for us to lose, since I would be lynched before 3 were left (unless I managed to double kill you).

I just disagree with everything else, just like in white flag.
Historical mafia and Johnny Depp, I can't complain, because I slipped in the first, and should have been CC immediately and defended myself better regardless.
My work here is, finally, done.
Khaos_Mage
Posts: 23,214
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9/30/2013 2:21:12 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
Furthermore, perhaps I am as sour about being read wrong as I am because of real life issues.
I am often ignored/disbelieved at work.
Recently, I said that it is not illegal to talk on the cell phone while driving in MN. Six people said I was wrong, and I told them to prove it. "You do it"... like I can prove a negative.

Anyway, I found a law that referenced an exception to the texting while driving law stating a phone can be used, and cross referenced another law that explicitly prohibited cell phone use in any capicity for school bus drivers.

People still said I was wrong :/
A repeat of the seatbelt law arguement where I showed them that it was not illegal to be buckled up when the car in engaged.

But, perhaps that is more an issue of them being jerks and bullying/harassing me, then being ignored (like my family does).

So, I apologize if I am coming accross as a poor loser/sport.
My work here is, finally, done.
drafterman
Posts: 18,870
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9/30/2013 2:24:35 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
@Khaos:

The main point of my "rules" is to get people thinking about the game. Why would we want to lynch all liars? Because scum has to lie and Town does not. Everyone wants to avoid being lynched so if we lynch all liars then Town can avoid dying to this rule by not lying, while scum still has to lie.

However, we enter a grey area when someone openly admits to a lie without pressure. Obviously, if someone is caught in a lie or - under pressure - admits to having lied, then they are likely scum. But if someone lies as a gambit, then openly admits it, it changes the dynamic a bit. Part of LAL is to discourage Townies from recklessly lying pursuant to gambits of questionable utility and, arguably, that is what TA was going for, but the fact that we came out and admitted it when we didn't have to is what really changed the situation.

None of your proposed scenarios really made any sense, as evident in the fact that you had to change them to accommodate TN05's obvious guilt. And, regardless, of any rule or guideline, it must give way to the logical possibilities.
Khaos_Mage
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9/30/2013 2:33:07 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 9/30/2013 2:24:35 PM, drafterman wrote:
@Khaos:

The main point of my "rules" is to get people thinking about the game. Why would we want to lynch all liars? Because scum has to lie and Town does not. Everyone wants to avoid being lynched so if we lynch all liars then Town can avoid dying to this rule by not lying, while scum still has to lie.
I get this.
I may do stupid things, but I'm not dumb.

However, we enter a grey area when someone openly admits to a lie without pressure. Obviously, if someone is caught in a lie or - under pressure - admits to having lied, then they are likely scum. But if someone lies as a gambit, then openly admits it, it changes the dynamic a bit. Part of LAL is to discourage Townies from recklessly lying pursuant to gambits of questionable utility and, arguably, that is what TA was going for, but the fact that we came out and admitted it when we didn't have to is what really changed the situation.

But, isn't that also the only course available to someone who will be caught in a lie (had Jon been scum, which you weren't 100% sure he wasn't)?

Had I replaced TA, and came clean about TA's lie, would you have given me the benefit of the doubt? I am certain you wouldn't if you were scum, but I don't think you would had you been town, either.

None of your proposed scenarios really made any sense, as evident in the fact that you had to change them to accommodate TN05's obvious guilt. And, regardless, of any rule or guideline, it must give way to the logical possibilities.

I get this.

I'm not surprised that town didn't take the bait, since noobs tend to lie far more than vets, so they would see it as null.
My work here is, finally, done.
drafterman
Posts: 18,870
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9/30/2013 2:39:19 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 9/30/2013 2:33:07 PM, Khaos_Mage wrote:
At 9/30/2013 2:24:35 PM, drafterman wrote:
@Khaos:

The main point of my "rules" is to get people thinking about the game. Why would we want to lynch all liars? Because scum has to lie and Town does not. Everyone wants to avoid being lynched so if we lynch all liars then Town can avoid dying to this rule by not lying, while scum still has to lie.
I get this.
I may do stupid things, but I'm not dumb.

However, we enter a grey area when someone openly admits to a lie without pressure. Obviously, if someone is caught in a lie or - under pressure - admits to having lied, then they are likely scum. But if someone lies as a gambit, then openly admits it, it changes the dynamic a bit. Part of LAL is to discourage Townies from recklessly lying pursuant to gambits of questionable utility and, arguably, that is what TA was going for, but the fact that we came out and admitted it when we didn't have to is what really changed the situation.

But, isn't that also the only course available to someone who will be caught in a lie (had Jon been scum, which you weren't 100% sure he wasn't)?

But there is no reason to suggest that we would have been caught in a lie. Another flaw in your argument was this assumption that we believed Jon was going to get lynched and flip scum.

Had I replaced TA, and came clean about TA's lie, would you have given me the benefit of the doubt? I am certain you wouldn't if you were scum, but I don't think you would had you been town, either.

You just came out and said it as we did, based on TA's previous behavior and you being a replacement, I don't think I would have held you accountable for his actions.

None of your proposed scenarios really made any sense, as evident in the fact that you had to change them to accommodate TN05's obvious guilt. And, regardless, of any rule or guideline, it must give way to the logical possibilities.

I get this.

I'm not surprised that town didn't take the bait, since noobs tend to lie far more than vets, so they would see it as null.
blackhawk1331
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9/30/2013 6:55:10 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 9/30/2013 10:08:27 AM, drafterman wrote:
If there were two big lessons here (following up from earlier) they would be:

1. Know when to hold them, know when to fold them, Mafia. Yeah, we had the mafia mentioned in DP1, but it was behavior in subsequent DPs that really sold it for us. To wit: TN05's complete and utter refusal to vote FT/Yraelz in DP2 and Khaos' twisted and changing logic trying to peg us as scum DP3 is really what sold us. If TN05 had switched from blackhawk to FT early on and Khaos hadn't tried to peg us as scum, it would have been a very different game. I was dead set on Town reading blackhawk based on TN05's behavior alone and we were still debating between Jon/NOTC/Khaos as scumteam before we decided on Khaos.

2. For the love of god, Town, how is it that Sparkies was the only one to follow up on stuff? I know Khaos criticized him for just parroting but if you have scum, you have scum, it doesn't matter how you got there. I know people think I'm crazy for wanting quick and decisive DPs but, as F16 showed, we named all the mafia in DP1, but the only reason the Town followed up on that was because we replaced back in and threw a tantrum to get everyone else to jump in. This is mainly directed at blackhawk. You're good, but sometimes you paralyzed yourself into indecision in trying to analyze every single angle. Sometimes you just gotta go with it, man. My main dread each phase was whether or not you'd be on board with the lynch and having to convince you.

I wasn't ever against any of the lynches. With yraelz, it was that I just came in and wanted to refresh my memory.
Because you said it was a waste, numb nuts. - Drafter

So fvck you. :) - TV

Use prima facie correctly or not at all. - Noumena
Yraelz
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9/30/2013 7:13:57 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
FT and I realized that killing Drafter/F16 was suicide, but pulling that mislynch on DP1 was pretty appealing. =)

The only thing I didn't like about this game was Budda's DP2 statement. Budda, if you're going to flip VIG and realize you were bus driven you can't say, "Frack you -insert Bus-Driver name-". With any experienced player base at all (read: Drafter/F16 subbing back in) the obvious conclusion is that you were bus driven against them. Especially true when the other person to die was your strongest town read.

What you did was tantamount to getting a guilty result, dying the same night, and then stating in chat, "I got a guilty on Yraelz, lulz".
drafterman
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9/30/2013 7:19:59 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 9/30/2013 7:13:57 PM, Yraelz wrote:
FT and I realized that killing Drafter/F16 was suicide, but pulling that mislynch on DP1 was pretty appealing. =)

The only thing I didn't like about this game was Budda's DP2 statement. Budda, if you're going to flip VIG and realize you were bus driven you can't say, "Frack you -insert Bus-Driver name-". With any experienced player base at all (read: Drafter/F16 subbing back in) the obvious conclusion is that you were bus driven against them. Especially true when the other person to die was your strongest town read.

What you did was tantamount to getting a guilty result, dying the same night, and then stating in chat, "I got a guilty on Yraelz, lulz".

Agreed, it was bad form.
F-16_Fighting_Falcon
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9/30/2013 7:34:06 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
I agree regarding Budda's reveal. However, Sparkies also knew that you were bus driven so that would likely have come out from him.

Yrealz, lol. I know you like pushing experienced players when you are scum so it is almost become a scumtell for you (consider Fantasy mafia with BV). I have a lot of theories about this regarding various playstyles - some people like Lucky play the same way.
Yraelz
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9/30/2013 8:13:17 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 9/30/2013 7:34:06 PM, F-16_Fighting_Falcon wrote:
I agree regarding Budda's reveal. However, Sparkies also knew that you were bus driven so that would likely have come out from him.

Yrealz, lol. I know you like pushing experienced players when you are scum so it is almost become a scumtell for you (consider Fantasy mafia with BV). I have a lot of theories about this regarding various playstyles - some people like Lucky play the same way.

I think you're selectively picking data points on this one. Sometimes I push experienced players lynches when I'm town just because I like being responsible for their death (unfortunately this seems to happen to TUF and Budda the most). Haha!
Yraelz
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9/30/2013 8:17:44 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 9/30/2013 7:34:06 PM, F-16_Fighting_Falcon wrote:
Yrealz, lol. I know you like pushing experienced players when you are scum so it is almost become a scumtell for you (consider Fantasy mafia with BV). I have a lot of theories about this regarding various playstyles - some people like Lucky play the same way.

From a standpoint outside of my in game character, I can be somewhat of a liability to town when not hydra-ing. There's just something alluring to me about style points. A win doesn't entertain me very much unless the battle was uphill in some way.

It just so happened that FT was equally enamored by the notion of DP1 mislynching you. But normally he would have tempered my pursuit.
F-16_Fighting_Falcon
Posts: 18,324
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9/30/2013 8:44:43 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
What you say "style points" is exactly the sort of thing I was referring to regarding playstyles. I want to do some research into past games and I'll likely make a post about it but the gist of my theory is that different people have different opinions on what constitutes a "stylish" win. It is really interesting. Just to throw out a couple of examples:

Consider Lucky_Luciano: In multiple games, his number one strategy is to try to convince the noobies to lynch experienced players. He views it as a battle of who can get the other lynched. He often talks about getting himself into difficult situations as town and is proud of the fact that he sometimes is able to talk himself out of those situations. As mafia, when he is caught by other experienced players, he attacks back and uses poor arguments but ones that appeal to new-ish players in order to dupe them into lynching the experienced player.

Royalpaladin is another such player. After games finish, she usually talks proudly about how many mislynches she "led" and got away with. Mislynching a good player is like a badge of honor to her.

That is one style of playing. There are plenty of others who focus on deceiving experienced players. I'd say it requires a higher level of play to do it because experienced players are harder to fool. But this happened plenty of times before. BlackVoid for instance usually tries to cozy up with other good players and get them to townread him. He then manipulates experienced players into lynching the poorer town players - or anyone but the mafia. TUF uses a mixture of both strategies but leans more towards the second group. IFLY is squarely in the second group. Drafter I think falls mostly into the second group but usually just goes with the flow depending on the game. Same with FT but he somewhat leans to the second group.

You, I would say fall squarely into the first group. A "stylish" win as defined by you is one in which you mislynch experienced player(s) more than one in which you deceive them. So you would consider a mislynch to be a "personal" victory of sorts. As such evaluating your scumgame rests on trying to determine whether you are achieving those goals as scum.

My interest in this theory started a while ago when I was playing with Lucky's old account (Mestari) in one of my first games on the site. Since then, I've noticed a lot of players's play swings heavily towards one side or the other depending on the game.

Personally I find the second one more fulfilling because I like to see the shock of other experienced players realizing that I was mafia duping them all along. I haven't played a lot of scumgames recently but that quickfire game where I townread you for being paranoid; it was pretty cool to see the reactions and it would have worked too if Tulle not venge-killed me.

As for how likely each tactic is to work: it depends on the playerbase and the circumstances obviously. It didn't work here because we had plenty of time to lynch you after replacing back in but it worked in Fantasy mafia. I think it is less optimal to my favored strategy of deception but can sometimes work if the circumstances are right. In this case, you were universally townread before you started pushing our lynch so it pretty much cost you the game. In a different scenario with different players and no replacements, it might have worked.