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Mafia Game Hydras

Danielle
Posts: 21,330
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8/27/2014 9:37:49 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
I'm just curious what you guys think of them in general. I've never played with them before recently. Now that I have, I personally don't like them. I also think they're a huge advantage to the mafia if a hydra team has a mafia role. Not only do they have another person to strategize with, but It makes it hard to decipher behavioral analysis. One player might seem scum but the other hydra player might seem town.

I also don't see the point of it. If 2 people want to play, why not play as individuals? You could combine your analysis publicly... with everyone else. That's how you play the game. Or one player could post and the other could read along and not post publicly (they could talk in private) so as to not confuse people. It just seems like an added element of confusion that is unnecessary nor helpful. I'm not saying we should ban hydras - I'm just expressing my distaste for them :P
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TheGreatAndPowerful
Posts: 3,012
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8/27/2014 10:31:06 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
F-16 raised the idea of Hydras about two years ago:

http://www.debate.org...

Ostensibly, the purpose was the create a better player. With two people operating in the same spot, they could bounce theories and reads off of each other without having to disclose it public and risk giving away too much information. Each person could compensate for the faults of the other, while their strengths are combined.

Alternatively, it was suggested that the concept could be used to pair noobs with more experienced mafia players to help them improve their play.

I believe me and F-16 were the first, based on that thread.

Within about 4 months, a couple hydras had run, and people already had concerns, noted by TUF here:

http://www.debate.org...

The main problems were the fact that it reduced the number of players, hurting sign-ups, especially since the tendency was for experienced players to hydra with each other. Also, it became a crutch for the lazy. Want to play but don't want to commit? Hydra with someone else.

The dubious benefits of Hydras was quickly called into question.

http://www.debate.org...

It was usually experienced players pairing up, meaning it wasn't being used to tutor less experienced players, the idea of magnifying strengths and consolidating reads was thrown at the window as the Hydra players pretty much played individually and independently, often resulting in contrary play styles in analysis (one half town-reads someone, the other scum-reads that same person).

When Hydras started, the players shared an account created for that purpose. When Hydras started getting popular, this created some concerns:

http://www.debate.org...

But I believe that no longer happens, and the players just play individually.

As it stands now, I think it's just an excuse for laziness.
Lucky_Luciano
Posts: 4,350
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8/27/2014 2:39:35 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
I personally believe that the mafia should not be allowed to talk to one another in the mafia pm during the DP, and by extension, hydras should not be able to either unless they are specifically hydraing for mentoring purposes, i.e. in a beginner games.
"Age is not important" - Airmax 2014
"Australia... is that a place?" - Airmax 2014
Khaos_Mage
Posts: 23,214
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8/27/2014 2:45:23 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 8/27/2014 2:39:35 PM, Lucky_Luciano wrote:
I personally believe that the mafia should not be allowed to talk to one another in the mafia pm during the DP, and by extension, hydras should not be able to either unless they are specifically hydraing for mentoring purposes, i.e. in a beginner games.

I wouldn't be opposed to that, as long as mafia had time before the game starts to devise a plan.
My work here is, finally, done.
Lucky_Luciano
Posts: 4,350
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8/27/2014 2:46:11 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 8/27/2014 2:45:23 PM, Khaos_Mage wrote:
At 8/27/2014 2:39:35 PM, Lucky_Luciano wrote:
I personally believe that the mafia should not be allowed to talk to one another in the mafia pm during the DP, and by extension, hydras should not be able to either unless they are specifically hydraing for mentoring purposes, i.e. in a beginner games.

I wouldn't be opposed to that, as long as mafia had time before the game starts to devise a plan.

Let me clarify, the mafia should not be able to talk during the DP except for the early parts of DP1, maybe the first 1/3rd, and possibly time before the game starts.
"Age is not important" - Airmax 2014
"Australia... is that a place?" - Airmax 2014
Danielle
Posts: 21,330
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8/27/2014 4:03:49 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
Whether or not the mafia can talk to each other is a mod preference which varies from game to game. Other game modifier ideas I had were limiting the # of posts on Day Phase 1 to something manageable like 400 max, or limiting each player to 20 posts max for DP1 forcing people to keep chatter, banter and other useless fluff to a minimum. I hate DP1.
President of DDO
Lucky_Luciano
Posts: 4,350
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8/27/2014 4:07:50 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 8/27/2014 4:03:49 PM, Danielle wrote:
Whether or not the mafia can talk to each other is a mod preference which varies from game to game. Other game modifier ideas I had were limiting the # of posts on Day Phase 1 to something manageable like 400 max, or limiting each player to 20 posts max for DP1 forcing people to keep chatter, banter and other useless fluff to a minimum. I hate DP1.

I don't think hard limits are the solution, but I agree that DDO's current DP1 meta is more harmful than good.
"Age is not important" - Airmax 2014
"Australia... is that a place?" - Airmax 2014
Danielle
Posts: 21,330
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8/27/2014 4:17:48 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 8/27/2014 4:07:50 PM, Lucky_Luciano wrote:
I don't think hard limits are the solution, but I agree that DDO's current DP1 meta is more harmful than good.

It's not a solution so much as an added challenge or opportunity for strategy or structure. I would experiment with it, especially if it were only used on DP1.
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ford_prefect
Posts: 4,138
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8/27/2014 4:44:01 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
I hate hydras and wish they were banned, maybe with exceptions for a beginner who wanted to learn from an expert. It's too convenient and easy to explain away discrepancies and contradictions made by hydras.
TheGreatAndPowerful
Posts: 3,012
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8/27/2014 4:55:34 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 8/27/2014 4:03:49 PM, Danielle wrote:
Whether or not the mafia can talk to each other is a mod preference which varies from game to game. Other game modifier ideas I had were limiting the # of posts on Day Phase 1 to something manageable like 400 max, or limiting each player to 20 posts max for DP1 forcing people to keep chatter, banter and other useless fluff to a minimum. I hate DP1.

Get out of my head.
Maikuru
Posts: 9,112
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8/27/2014 6:38:54 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
Tulle and I basically only ever hydra now. We have very different play styles and I feel like we compliment each other. With both of us in school, it also helps keep us both informed and active.
"You assume I wouldn't want to burn this whole place to the ground."
- lamerde

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Hatstand
Posts: 2,673
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8/27/2014 9:25:45 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 8/27/2014 2:39:35 PM, Lucky_Luciano wrote:
I personally believe that the mafia should not be allowed to talk to one another in the mafia pm during the DP, and by extension, hydras should not be able to either unless they are specifically hydraing for mentoring purposes, i.e. in a beginner games.

What's the point of being a hydra if you don't talk outside of the thread? Chances are that the two members of the hydra won't come to the same conclusions. Therefore they would either have to spend time persuading each other in the thread or they would have to trust each other implicitely on the basis that they knew the other's affiliation.

The first option would lead to confusion within the town (as they wouldn't be able to pin down a single stance for the hydra) and would mean that a member of a hydra couldn't withhold anything from the thread without having to manipulate their own partner (which is bad, because it removes the possibility that they will catch their partner's errors of reason).

The second is equally useless. If the hydra was forced to proceed based on trust alone, in all situations the partners would have to fall to a controlling party and a submissive suporter. In this case, the submissive becomes useless as they cannot monitor the actions of the dominant or act in opposition (because that would be a violoation of the trust). The only solution would be for them to act entirely independently, in which case they may as well have their own slot.
Lucky_Luciano
Posts: 4,350
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8/27/2014 9:49:25 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 8/27/2014 9:25:45 PM, Hatstand wrote:
At 8/27/2014 2:39:35 PM, Lucky_Luciano wrote:
I personally believe that the mafia should not be allowed to talk to one another in the mafia pm during the DP, and by extension, hydras should not be able to either unless they are specifically hydraing for mentoring purposes, i.e. in a beginner games.

What's the point of being a hydra if you don't talk outside of the thread? Chances are that the two members of the hydra won't come to the same conclusions. Therefore they would either have to spend time persuading each other in the thread or they would have to trust each other implicitely on the basis that they knew the other's affiliation.

The first option would lead to confusion within the town (as they wouldn't be able to pin down a single stance for the hydra) and would mean that a member of a hydra couldn't withhold anything from the thread without having to manipulate their own partner (which is bad, because it removes the possibility that they will catch their partner's errors of reason).

The second is equally useless. If the hydra was forced to proceed based on trust alone, in all situations the partners would have to fall to a controlling party and a submissive suporter. In this case, the submissive becomes useless as they cannot monitor the actions of the dominant or act in opposition (because that would be a violoation of the trust). The only solution would be for them to act entirely independently, in which case they may as well have their own slot.

Hydras are uniquely powerful due to the increased analytical capacity. This is a check on that power. They can still communicate at night.
"Age is not important" - Airmax 2014
"Australia... is that a place?" - Airmax 2014
Hatstand
Posts: 2,673
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8/27/2014 11:15:46 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 8/27/2014 9:49:25 PM, Lucky_Luciano wrote:

Hydras are uniquely powerful due to the increased analytical capacity. This is a check on that power. They can still communicate at night.

Hydra's have the potential to be incredibly powerful, I agree. However, as has been stated by others already, this potential is not always realised, and hydras (even as they are) can easily be a detriment to the town. I won't argue whether hydras are too powerful, too confusing, need to be checked, or need to be removed, as I have never been in a hydra myself and haven't played with enough of them to develop an informed opinion on the topic.

However, I still believe that this kind of check would not be effective.

Being able to communicate at night would allow hydras to start out DPs on the same foot, but except in the cases of very short DPs, developing events would almost certainly cause an exponential growth in difference of opinion and strategy over time. The only alternative to this distancing would be to only re-assess one's targets and strategies during the NP, which would be a severe handicap to everyone involved and ultimately anti-town.

This check is based on the idea that hydras are too strong for town, but it essentially drives them straight into negative utility. The choice to voluntarily play a role that was by definition unnecessary negative-utility is incredibly selfish, and this check would only serve to ensure that disallowing hydras was the best course of action.
YYW
Posts: 36,263
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8/27/2014 11:18:03 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
I think that Hydras give people an increased ability to work together to figure stuff out, yes. And I think that to balance that, I could see a mod founding a hydra as 1.5 players for the purposes of town/scum ratios rather than only one. I think there is a game in play where that is the case.
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Maikuru
Posts: 9,112
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8/28/2014 5:31:06 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
A few other reasons why tulle and I prefer to hydra rather than play individually:

- we don't like playing against each other
- we like to be able to discuss our current games, which we can't do if we're playing individually and is harder to do if only one of us is playing
- we don't like clogging the DP with a back and forth discussion, which could instead happen in a PM
- unless you're scum, there aren't many opportunities to strategize in detail with other players. Even scum PM's can be quiet

I prefer the days of using a single, unique hydra account. These days, when we hydra, we just use a single account and discuss major points before that person posts.
"You assume I wouldn't want to burn this whole place to the ground."
- lamerde

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Buddamoose
Posts: 19,448
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8/28/2014 5:33:09 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
I used to have little issue with hydras. However hydras worked differently back when they were first implemented. The two people would post under one unified account, while using their seperate accounts within the role PM.

Tulle/Maikuru, and how they used to hydra were a perfect example of hydras used in a way that i thought was perfect. Though at times they would post seperately from the account, those posts would have an indicator of whom it was that wrote it. However, most of their posts would be a unification of their analysis, and if any discrepancies existed between their reads, or slight disagreeances, those would be noted within the analysis itself.

A hydra, imo forces both players to be purposeful with their analysis, and brings more emphasis upon posting with meaning. After all both players cannot be using the account simultaneously, so when one is posting, they are checked, or at least should be, by keeping the others analysis in mind.

What hydras have become is a far cry from that. That players are just posting from their own seperate accounts, takes away the need to convince the other of ones analysis, or the need to compromise, as their isnt a unified account that both players are posting from. It may seem like a formality, but a unified account really acts as a check upon both players from being too independent in their posts. After all, isnt the point of a hydra for both players to be able to dscuss reads with one another, then come out with, because of this discussion, better formulated reads? The use of a unified account puts emphasis upon this dynamic.

The use of seperate accounts however, throws this emphasis away. Hydras instead post their own independent analysis from their own account. This analysis is often at odds with each other, and only achieves in obfuscating other players reads. It creates easy "cop-outs" as well for scummy behavior.

"Well i was just deferring to the others judgement"
"That was their vote not mine"
"they said that, not me"

These kinds of issues are supposed to be worked out inside of the hydra pm, not in the game itself. If one chooses to defer to the others judgement, that judgement becomes their own as well. If a vote is placed, then that vote is coming from both players, not just one. Any analysis posted, any opinions voiced, are the analysis and opinions of both players by default of being a hydra.

The use of seperate accounts de-emohasizes that at its core this is what hydras are intended to be. Two players(or more) voices unifying as a singular voice. That singular voice being a combined and hopefully improved form of all involved players analysis.

Dont like that concept? Cool, then you should probably just play by yourself wherein your analysis is your own, your votes are your own, and your actions are your own.

I've also noted some people bring up, as if it is a negative, that the use of hydras makes it so players that are generally inactive, or "lazy" still get to play. This as a negative concept is kind of a twisted view imo. If a player that is usually inactivehydras, that shouldnt be seen as being lazy, because now they dont have to put in as much effort. It should be viewed in a positive light, because they are, instead of taking up a whole spot that could otherwise be used by a more active player, opting to team up with another player, and that inactivity by default becomes less hurtful to whatever affiliation they happen to be.

Its also a great use of hydras when an experienced player hydras with an inexperienced player. I'm honestly surprised that i dont see people doing this on a regular basis. The beginners series is a great way for those new or still learning mafia to get the ropes, yes. But being able to hydra with a more experienced player, will allow for that player to learn all that much more. Why? It will give them an insight into the methodology and thought process of that more experienced player.

I see people complain about the player quality on this site. For example, recently in Creepypasta mafia Fourtrouble said something along the lines of,

"this is why I dont play here much. Just sh!t play all around."

Well cool. If one wants to complain about the quality of play on DDO, then wouldnt it make sense to try to improve that quality? Why not hydra with less experienced players, or players that arent very good, to help them improve. Instead, i see hydras mainly being used between players that are already pretty good, and fairly experienced. Sure, it still is likely a learning experience for both involved parties, but not nearly as much of a learning experience it would be for a more experienced and skilled player to hydra with a less experienced and skilled player.

I propose that we clean up, or re-boot the adopt a noob thread. That thread then becomes a basis for less experienced players to connect with, and hydra with a more experienced player for a span of games. After that process is done, that adoptee then will be able to rate their mentor on a variety of factors. This way it can be ensured that only those that are proficient at mentoring are continuing to do so. This would of course require someone to take over the responsibility of facilitating this whole process. I have no qualms with doing so myself, i'm just not sure who to contact at this point to get this process rolling.

In conclusion, hydras necessitate teamwork and compromise between two or more players. However, this necessitation is only as such if a singular account is used. In the absence of that, it very much defeats the purpose of hydra'ing in the first place. Hydras definitely have a great potential to have a more positive impact on not only games, but site quality overall. The current way that hydras are being used, however, is having a negative impact upon games. I would suggest, as i am, that if future mods wish for them to have a positive impact, that they allow hydras so long as that hydra is using a singular account. This will, imo, clear up the issues sufficiently to where they will have a positive impact as opposed to a negative impact.
"Reality is an illusion created due to a lack of alcohol"
-Airmax1227

"You were the moon all this time, and he was always there to make you shine."

"Was he the sun?"

"No honey, he was the darkness"

-Kazekirion
FourTrouble
Posts: 12,757
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8/28/2014 8:06:57 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
Budda, the irony of your post is that I was in a hydra with Endark to help him improve. That is literally why I signed up for that game. If you saw my hydra PM with Endark, you'd see tons of posts explaining how to approach hunting for scum. I just got frustrated with the other players in the game, after I explained exactly why you were scum, explained how they should be approaching the game, and they just ignored all my advice. But my complaints were in the context of hydra'ing with a beginner to help him improve. And I agree that hydras are effective for that purpose.

In fact, when I initially decided to hydra with Yraelz (the first person I ever hydra'd with), it was to help Yraelz improve as a player. He was a beginner, had only played one game, and his play was awful in his first game, but he had huge potential and I wanted to see him unlock that as quickly as possible.

So I completely agree that hydras offer a great opportunity for players to improve. That includes both experienced and inexperienced players. For example, when I hydra with F-16 on mafiascum, I learn a great deal and improve my own scumhunting, since he'll point out things I never would have thought/seen.
YYW
Posts: 36,263
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8/28/2014 8:08:19 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 8/28/2014 8:06:57 PM, FourTrouble wrote:
Budda, the irony of your post is that I was in a hydra with Endark to help him improve. That is literally why I signed up for that game. If you saw my hydra PM with Endark, you'd see tons of posts explaining how to approach hunting for scum. I just got frustrated with the other players in the game, after I explained exactly why you were scum, explained how they should be approaching the game, and they just ignored all my advice. But my complaints were in the context of hydra'ing with a beginner to help him improve. And I agree that hydras are effective for that purpose.

In fact, when I initially decided to hydra with Yraelz (the first person I ever hydra'd with), it was to help Yraelz improve as a player. He was a beginner, had only played one game, and his play was awful in his first game, but he had huge potential and I wanted to see him unlock that as quickly as possible.

So I completely agree that hydras offer a great opportunity for players to improve. That includes both experienced and inexperienced players. For example, when I hydra with F-16 on mafiascum, I learn a great deal and improve my own scumhunting, since he'll point out things I never would have thought/seen.

At some point, you and I are going to need to hydra... I just don't have time to do it now. Probably around thanksgiving will be the next chance I get.
Tsar of DDO
YYW
Posts: 36,263
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8/28/2014 8:09:46 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 8/28/2014 5:31:06 PM, Maikuru wrote:
A few other reasons why tulle and I prefer to hydra rather than play individually:

- we don't like playing against each other

I completely sympathize with that.

- we like to be able to discuss our current games, which we can't do if we're playing individually and is harder to do if only one of us is playing

Exactly.

- we don't like clogging the DP with a back and forth discussion, which could instead happen in a PM

Same.

- unless you're scum, there aren't many opportunities to strategize in detail with other players. Even scum PM's can be quiet

Well said.

I prefer the days of using a single, unique hydra account. These days, when we hydra, we just use a single account and discuss major points before that person posts.

I agree on all counts.
Tsar of DDO
Buddamoose
Posts: 19,448
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8/28/2014 8:46:03 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 8/28/2014 8:06:57 PM, FourTrouble wrote:
Budda, the irony of your post is that I was in a hydra with Endark to help him improve. That is literally why I signed up for that game.

Cool, then what do you think of the idea to re-boot, if you will, the adopt a noob thread. Ya kno, remove the old thread, sticky a new one so its cleaner(less posts, maybe just a few detailing what ita about, who to contact to get placed with a mentor to hydra, etc.

I've also wondered if anyone would support cleaning up the TV's guide to mafia thread as well as the mafia modding guide. here's great posts in there yes, but, its just a hodge-podge of stuff that i cant help but feel gets mostly ignored cause its so vast and disorganized.

Like, if say the older threads gpt removed, and a group of players got together to create collaborate on guides to certain aspects of mafia. Same goes for mods.

If those threads were cleaner and what not, it would, i think, encourage more people to try mafia. It would also improve the initial starting quality of the sites player base
"Reality is an illusion created due to a lack of alcohol"
-Airmax1227

"You were the moon all this time, and he was always there to make you shine."

"Was he the sun?"

"No honey, he was the darkness"

-Kazekirion
Danielle
Posts: 21,330
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8/28/2014 10:25:53 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
I played Mafia with my ex on this site for years and we never played as a hydra. So have other couples and so did mongoose and mongeese (twins). Of course it was tempting to discuss the game, but you're supposed to discuss the game constantly... in the day phase. There's nothing you could say to your partner about the game that you wouldn't or shouldn't be able to say publicly. You should also be able to strategize and share thoughts and reads with your partner... in the day phase. I don't see why you wouldn't share your analysis with everyone. Sometimes strategy is a factor (like for night actions and stuff) but meh. Is your partner really such an amazing player that you need them to dictate your night actions? Or verify what you say in the day phase? Have some confidence in yourself! You're an individual. And if you're scum but your partner is innocent, man up, put your game face on and DO IT BRO.

I also don't understand why people hydra when they already know how to play. What's the point? I learned Mafia on this site without using a hydra. So did 95% of the other players, and some of us even did it without Beginner games! Imagine that. I think Beginner games are a great idea btw even though 90% of the players aren't beginners, and mods should of course be expected to help out and give a lot of info and tips in those games to new players... but aside from that, it's just like dude... come on. I'm sure you're all smart enough to figure it out and get better over time.

I completely agree with Buddamoose that playing under 2 separate accounts is annoying and confusing for the rest of us to keep up with. Hydras have an advantage (two heads are better than one) and they are harder to scum read IMO. On two separate occasions this week I scum read 1 hydra partner and town read another. Hydras are basically automatic masons. And even if they post from the same account, like Budda said it's also too easy to say "Oh so and so posted that"or "I don't scum read them, my partner does." It's not a big deal, I'm just personally not a fan and would love to see this trend phased out over time. But of course it's up to the mods and most mods would rather a hydra team play than no partners play. I just don't get it and personally dislike playing with them.
President of DDO
Danielle
Posts: 21,330
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8/28/2014 10:31:29 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
In the case of tulle/Maikuru I get it because it's a time issue and it would be easier to be active (and it would be most fair to everyone else in terms of activity) if they played together. However if I were them, I would just have one person sign up and let the other person follow along in the thread and sign into my account if they wanted to post something (or just tell me to post it). Nobody even has to know that they are a hydra. There's another game with like 3 hydra teams - dafuq? If you know how to play Mafia and you aren't super busy plus with your partner in person most of the time (even though I lived with someone for 2 years and played Mafia with them as individuals while we sat next to each other on the couch) then I don't see the point.
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Buddamoose
Posts: 19,448
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9/2/2014 12:38:12 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 8/28/2014 10:25:53 PM, Danielle wrote:

And even if they post from the same account, like Budda said it's also too easy to say "Oh so and so posted that"or "I don't scum read them, my partner does." It's not a big deal, I'm just personally not a fan and would love to see this trend phased out over time.

See, i'm of the opinion that hydras acting under a singular "hydra" account will resplve this issue satisfactorily. A singular account emphasises that when two people hydra, their individual reads become the others, their behavior becomes the othere, and vice versa. Its a "guilt by association" type thing. With seperate accounts being used, this is de-emphasized. Which I think is likely the unspoken motivation behind seperate accounts being used. Nobody likes to be fos'd for somebody elses poor behavior. But then, a player with that mentality is better off just playing alone. Because one of the checks/balances of a hydra imo, is that you are taking the risk that you are going to be fos'd for your partners behavior.

This is why its crucial imo, that hydras discuss, agree, and compromise on posts before making them public. Which brings in another check/balance of a hydras advantage over individual participants. Which is that hydras, by necessity of needing to discuss the posts, are not going to post as much as an individual player would theoretically.

For example, say a player such as myself were to hydra with a player such as Khaos. Both of us alone are highly active players. So one would think that as a hydra, our activity would be just as high if not higher. This imo, wouldnt be the case. Sure the PM would be crazy active, but out of all the discussion in the PM, maybe a handful of posts would actually be posted in game. It would essentially be a trade between qualty, instead of quantity.

But of course it's up to the mods and most mods would rather a hydra team play than no partners play. I just don't get it and personally dislike playing with them.

See, and i dont dislike hydras as a concept. The current way they are being used though, is what i dislike.
"Reality is an illusion created due to a lack of alcohol"
-Airmax1227

"You were the moon all this time, and he was always there to make you shine."

"Was he the sun?"

"No honey, he was the darkness"

-Kazekirion
Danielle
Posts: 21,330
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9/2/2014 2:52:40 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 9/2/2014 12:38:12 AM, Buddamoose wrote:
See, and i dont dislike hydras as a concept. The current way they are being used though, is what i dislike.

Why would someone who knows how to play hydra with another aside from activity purposes? I agree with your point about hydras communicating a lot in the PM, but it would be really annoying if I were a hydra with you and we disagreed. I wouldn't want to have to agree with most of your analysis in order to have clearance to post in the DP. I wouldn't want someone else having a say in my night actions. If two people want to play, I don't see why they wouldn't play separately. If the whole purpose is to share and compare analysis, then what is the day phase supposed to be used for?
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AnDoctuir
Posts: 11,060
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9/2/2014 2:57:02 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
I used to think they were dumb for the obvious reasons too, but then I realised this game is awful and most people are awful at it to the degree that it doesn't make the slightest difference.
AnDoctuir
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9/2/2014 3:10:23 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
I wouldn't mind trying out good cop/bad cop with them, though, which is actually a highly effective psychological manipulation that I use all the time in normal games (if I get a really nice partner). One man army kinda thing. And I think there's a whole lot about them that way - if the hydra stays unsynchronised - that screws up the normal dynamic (OMGUS, accountability, etc.). Still, people are dumb and this game is bad.
TheGreatAndPowerful
Posts: 3,012
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9/2/2014 3:12:04 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 9/2/2014 2:57:02 PM, AnDoctuir wrote:
I used to think they were dumb for the obvious reasons too, but then I realised this game is awful and most people are awful at it to the degree that it doesn't make the slightest difference.

It's a good thing no one likes you, then.
AnDoctuir
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9/2/2014 3:15:02 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 9/2/2014 3:12:04 PM, TheGreatAndPowerful wrote:
At 9/2/2014 2:57:02 PM, AnDoctuir wrote:
I used to think they were dumb for the obvious reasons too, but then I realised this game is awful and most people are awful at it to the degree that it doesn't make the slightest difference.

It's a good thing no one likes you, then.

Plenty of people like me. And it's a pathetic denial of ability to state your dislike of a person, or if you invoke the "other" anyway.
Buddamoose
Posts: 19,448
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9/2/2014 4:10:25 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 9/2/2014 2:52:40 PM, Danielle wrote:
At 9/2/2014 12:38:12 AM, Buddamoose wrote:
See, and i dont dislike hydras as a concept. The current way they are being used though, is what i dislike.

Why would someone who knows how to play hydra with another aside from activity purposes?

Getting another perspective upon behavioral analysis/strategems. Often I think we can all admit that we get too affirmed in our own views and miss what others might see. Its a nice thing to have another perspective that you can 100% trust. Plus, it allows to see how another plays, and the thought process and methodology behind that play while its happening.

I agree with your point about hydras communicating a lot in the PM, but it would be really annoying if I were a hydra with you and we disagreed. I wouldn't want to have to agree with most of your analysis in order to have clearance to post in the DP. I wouldn't want someone else having a say in my night actions. If two people want to play, I don't see why they wouldn't play separately.

Its really comes down to personality when playing mafia. Like, for example, you wouldnt want to get anothers clearance to post, or have to agree with a course of action. But then that, to me, just misses that the other person would have to do the same. Its not a matter of needing to agree with everything anorher person is saying, rather, being able to compromise upon a middle ground if disagreeances exieted. Whats worth backing off of, whats not worth it?

If the whole purpose is to share and compare analysis, then what is the day phase supposed to be used for?

The day phase is for that exact same reason. But as opposed to seperate play where you can never really know that other player is 100% affiliated with you unless ur mafia/tp togethher, as town you always have the block in place that the other person is scum and not giving genuine analysis. Hydras eliminate this concern as the other person is guaranteed affiliated with you, as you are both the same "character" in game
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