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Mafia Invitational Season Concept

Buddamoose
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9/18/2014 12:11:01 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
So essentially i'm thinking of a way to create a "season" concept for mafia players on this site. Wherein a certain amount of games are played, and based off of ones performance in the games, a certain amount of points are awarded. After a certain amount of games are played a subset of 8 players with the highest total points accrued . Afteran additional set of games are played the player with the most points after those games is crowned champion.

Like say, a pool of 16 players starts in the beginning. 10 games total are played, and that is considered the "season." After the season is played, the top 8 players are left as eligible to be crowned seasonal champion. While the other 8 still get to play, they are no longer in contention for the seasonal championship. So think like how NASCAR does its seasons.

The games would all have to fit within prior set parameters, to ensure balance and fair results based upon the games, of course. Like say, themed, semi-open(role) set-ups.

Possible point awarding per game:

Factional MVP- 15 points
Honorable Mentions(1 additional per faction)- 8 points

Read Percentages(as town):

0-10% success ratio- -5 points
10-20% success ratio- -4 points
20-30% success ratio- -3 points
30-40% success ratio- -2 points
40-50% success ratio- -1 points
50-60% success ratio- 0 points
60-70% success ratio- 2 points
70-80% success ratio- 3 points
80-90% success ratio- 4 points
90-100% success ration- 5 points

Reads would be submitted at the end of each DP, and points would be accrued as the game progressed based upon the success ration of those percentages.

A team of three judges would be used to award things such as factional MVP and honorable mentions.
"Reality is an illusion created due to a lack of alcohol"
-Airmax1227

"You were the moon all this time, and he was always there to make you shine."

"Was he the sun?"

"No honey, he was the darkness"

-Kazekirion
Buddamoose
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9/18/2014 12:12:05 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
open to any sort of additional suggestions and concepts, or even saying that such a concept would just not work, or is stupid lol.

But imho, i think this is something competitive and fun that would be worth pursuing to get worked on and started up at some point.
"Reality is an illusion created due to a lack of alcohol"
-Airmax1227

"You were the moon all this time, and he was always there to make you shine."

"Was he the sun?"

"No honey, he was the darkness"

-Kazekirion
Buddamoose
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9/18/2014 12:18:10 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 9/18/2014 12:15:21 PM, Khaos_Mage wrote:
Sound like if you are mafia, you can only get points by being MVP.

and thats where ideas are needed to accrue additional points as mafia. Like, with a team of judges i'm fairly certain things can be thought of
"Reality is an illusion created due to a lack of alcohol"
-Airmax1227

"You were the moon all this time, and he was always there to make you shine."

"Was he the sun?"

"No honey, he was the darkness"

-Kazekirion
Buddamoose
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9/18/2014 12:19:43 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
like, the point awardings were things that came to the top of my head right away. That doesn't need be the end all be all.

I also purposely left out winning and losing as a means to accrue points, because in alot of cases one not even need do anything to be on the winning faction
"Reality is an illusion created due to a lack of alcohol"
-Airmax1227

"You were the moon all this time, and he was always there to make you shine."

"Was he the sun?"

"No honey, he was the darkness"

-Kazekirion
Khaos_Mage
Posts: 23,214
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9/18/2014 12:20:38 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 9/18/2014 12:18:10 PM, Buddamoose wrote:
At 9/18/2014 12:15:21 PM, Khaos_Mage wrote:
Sound like if you are mafia, you can only get points by being MVP.

and thats where ideas are needed to accrue additional points as mafia. Like, with a team of judges i'm fairly certain things can be thought of

I suppose you could get points 3 points for each DP survived.
Or, calling power roles out.

I don't know.....it seems the season concept could alter players' motivations.
My work here is, finally, done.
Buddamoose
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9/18/2014 12:21:04 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
like some ideas for additional point awardings:

usage of night actions(for both town and mafia)
lynch/mislynch leads(for town and mafia)
"Reality is an illusion created due to a lack of alcohol"
-Airmax1227

"You were the moon all this time, and he was always there to make you shine."

"Was he the sun?"

"No honey, he was the darkness"

-Kazekirion
Buddamoose
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9/18/2014 12:22:52 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 9/18/2014 12:20:38 PM, Khaos_Mage wrote:
At 9/18/2014 12:18:10 PM, Buddamoose wrote:
At 9/18/2014 12:15:21 PM, Khaos_Mage wrote:
Sound like if you are mafia, you can only get points by being MVP.

and thats where ideas are needed to accrue additional points as mafia. Like, with a team of judges i'm fairly certain things can be thought of

I suppose you could get points 3 points for each DP survived.
Or, calling power roles out.

aha, there ya go, those are two great idea. Although i'm not sure about points for surviving each DP. That would alter behavior so much(self-survival would become tantamount) that it would fundamentally alter and rule out certain mafia strategies to victory.

I don't know.....it seems the season concept could alter players' motivations.

that is true. It's a matter of awarding points in a manner that changes motivations as little as possible if not at all
"Reality is an illusion created due to a lack of alcohol"
-Airmax1227

"You were the moon all this time, and he was always there to make you shine."

"Was he the sun?"

"No honey, he was the darkness"

-Kazekirion
ford_prefect
Posts: 4,139
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9/18/2014 12:34:15 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
My first thought when I saw this was to be super excited. I want to love this idea. But the More I think about it, the more I agree with khaos. Adding these points is going to change the way people play. For example, as town I rarely try to call out the entire scum team at the same time in the early game. Why bother? You can only lynch one each day, and calling them all out will draw their attention to you. Especially if I am a cop, vig, or JOAT, the better plan is to stay silent and kill/investigate them at night. Mafia are less likely to NK you if you are not too close to finding them. For instance, in creepypasta I survived until dp6 by not doing anything too pro town. Then I laid out a huge case against ESocial, who was scum, and I was dead the next morning.
Khaos_Mage
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9/18/2014 12:49:29 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 9/18/2014 12:34:15 PM, ford_prefect wrote:
My first thought when I saw this was to be super excited. I want to love this idea. But the More I think about it, the more I agree with khaos. Adding these points is going to change the way people play. For example, as town I rarely try to call out the entire scum team at the same time in the early game. Why bother? You can only lynch one each day, and calling them all out will draw their attention to you. Especially if I am a cop, vig, or JOAT, the better plan is to stay silent and kill/investigate them at night. Mafia are less likely to NK you if you are not too close to finding them. For instance, in creepypasta I survived until dp6 by not doing anything too pro town. Then I laid out a huge case against ESocial, who was scum, and I was dead the next morning.

LOL
First, that plan is not pro-town. If you know the scum team, say it DP1, so town can evaluate it.
Second, the reason you died in that game was nothing more than we figured your death would cause a no lynch at MYLO.

IMO, people need to stop thinking their reads/skills are what keep them alive. It rarely is.
My work here is, finally, done.
Khaos_Mage
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9/18/2014 12:50:30 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
Also, ford, as Budda's plan is proposed, this is in the DP, so there is no threat in being right. Mafia will never know.
My work here is, finally, done.
Buddamoose
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9/18/2014 12:51:29 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 9/18/2014 12:34:15 PM, ford_prefect wrote:

The reads would be submitted within ones PM, not publically. I suppose I should have clarified that from the onset. So one wouldnt need to draw mafias attention to themself.

Also, if a townie dies, that wouldnt preclude them from still submitting reads within their PM, and thus accruing points as DP's progress
"Reality is an illusion created due to a lack of alcohol"
-Airmax1227

"You were the moon all this time, and he was always there to make you shine."

"Was he the sun?"

"No honey, he was the darkness"

-Kazekirion
TheGreatAndPowerful
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9/18/2014 12:53:06 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 9/18/2014 12:49:29 PM, Khaos_Mage wrote:
At 9/18/2014 12:34:15 PM, ford_prefect wrote:
My first thought when I saw this was to be super excited. I want to love this idea. But the More I think about it, the more I agree with khaos. Adding these points is going to change the way people play. For example, as town I rarely try to call out the entire scum team at the same time in the early game. Why bother? You can only lynch one each day, and calling them all out will draw their attention to you. Especially if I am a cop, vig, or JOAT, the better plan is to stay silent and kill/investigate them at night. Mafia are less likely to NK you if you are not too close to finding them. For instance, in creepypasta I survived until dp6 by not doing anything too pro town. Then I laid out a huge case against ESocial, who was scum, and I was dead the next morning.

LOL
First, that plan is not pro-town. If you know the scum team, say it DP1, so town can evaluate it.

Exactly. Because after Bullish and I died in Themeless, you went back and saw our scum reads on 9space(Zaradi) and TN05 in DP1 and then lynched them both, winning the game for Town in a glorious manner.

Second, the reason you died in that game was nothing more than we figured your death would cause a no lynch at MYLO.

IMO, people need to stop thinking their reads/skills are what keep them alive. It rarely is.
Buddamoose
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9/18/2014 12:57:44 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
like, i'm of the honest opinion that this idea has a boatload of great potential. Just needs alot of refinement into creating a points system that does not alter motivation in a fundamental manner, and is fair as well.

That's why i brought up the judges system, one of which can be the moderator of the games. Heck ,we could even do "divisions" as well, wherein you have top tier players, like Khaos, FT, Drafter, etc. who are in that subset.

and the amalgation of lesser tiered(no offense) players like Ford, Krieg, etc. And as seasons progress those that perform well progress upwards through the tiers, those that perform substandard progress downwards, from season to season.

However this is all something that would be far in the future, for now, there is alot of general refinement with how the games should be structured, how points should be awarded, etc. to hash out
"Reality is an illusion created due to a lack of alcohol"
-Airmax1227

"You were the moon all this time, and he was always there to make you shine."

"Was he the sun?"

"No honey, he was the darkness"

-Kazekirion
Buddamoose
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9/18/2014 12:58:40 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 9/18/2014 12:53:06 PM, TheGreatAndPowerful wrote:

Exactly. Because after Bullish and I died in Themeless, you went back and saw our scum reads on 9space(Zaradi) and TN05 in DP1 and then lynched them both, winning the game for Town in a glorious manner.

LMAO XD
"Reality is an illusion created due to a lack of alcohol"
-Airmax1227

"You were the moon all this time, and he was always there to make you shine."

"Was he the sun?"

"No honey, he was the darkness"

-Kazekirion
Khaos_Mage
Posts: 23,214
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9/18/2014 1:05:51 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 9/18/2014 12:53:06 PM, TheGreatAndPowerful wrote:

Exactly. Because after Bullish and I died in Themeless, you went back and saw our scum reads on 9space(Zaradi) and TN05 in DP1 and then lynched them both, winning the game for Town in a glorious manner.

What is your opinion on the matter, then?
DP1, you know the scum team. Do you out them all, or feign ignorance to stay alive?

I'm not saying town follows through, but at least you, as town, have done all you can. Hiding your reads helps nobody.
My work here is, finally, done.
TheGreatAndPowerful
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9/18/2014 1:07:51 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 9/18/2014 1:05:51 PM, Khaos_Mage wrote:
At 9/18/2014 12:53:06 PM, TheGreatAndPowerful wrote:

Exactly. Because after Bullish and I died in Themeless, you went back and saw our scum reads on 9space(Zaradi) and TN05 in DP1 and then lynched them both, winning the game for Town in a glorious manner.

What is your opinion on the matter, then?

Oh, I agree you should out your reads, but it is unfortunate to see that Town rarely goes back to review the reads of dead Townies. So I'm interesting in why you would tout this view when you don't do it. It seems to take away from your argument when you are proposing a course of action you don't adhere to.

DP1, you know the scum team. Do you out them all, or feign ignorance to stay alive?

I'm not saying town follows through, but at least you, as town, have done all you can. Hiding your reads helps nobody.

I agree. And not following up on other's reads also helps nobody.
ford_prefect
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9/18/2014 1:10:19 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 9/18/2014 12:50:30 PM, Khaos_Mage wrote:
Also, ford, as Budda's plan is proposed, this is in the DP, so there is no threat in being right. Mafia will never know.

You mean in your PM? If so, then I retract my criticism.
Khaos_Mage
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9/18/2014 1:10:51 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 9/18/2014 1:10:19 PM, ford_prefect wrote:
At 9/18/2014 12:50:30 PM, Khaos_Mage wrote:
Also, ford, as Budda's plan is proposed, this is in the DP, so there is no threat in being right. Mafia will never know.

You mean in your PM? If so, then I retract my criticism.

Yes, that is what I meant, and is Budda's current plan.
My work here is, finally, done.
ford_prefect
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9/18/2014 1:13:48 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 9/18/2014 12:49:29 PM, Khaos_Mage wrote:
At 9/18/2014 12:34:15 PM, ford_prefect wrote:
My first thought when I saw this was to be super excited. I want to love this idea. But the More I think about it, the more I agree with khaos. Adding these points is going to change the way people play. For example, as town I rarely try to call out the entire scum team at the same time in the early game. Why bother? You can only lynch one each day, and calling them all out will draw their attention to you. Especially if I am a cop, vig, or JOAT, the better plan is to stay silent and kill/investigate them at night. Mafia are less likely to NK you if you are not too close to finding them. For instance, in creepypasta I survived until dp6 by not doing anything too pro town. Then I laid out a huge case against ESocial, who was scum, and I was dead the next morning.

LOL
First, that plan is not pro-town. If you know the scum team, say it DP1, so town can evaluate it.

Well first of all, it's not like you ever KNOW the scum team DP1. You may have a really good hunch, and you may even be right, but I have never seen somebody straight up say DP1 who all the mafia are, and have town listen to them and lynch them all in a row to win. Games just don't go that way.

Second, the reason you died in that game was nothing more than we figured your death would cause a no lynch at MYLO.

I agree that was part of a reason for why you guys had to kill me. But ESocial already admitted that me nailing her also played a big role in killing me that night.

IMO, people need to stop thinking their reads/skills are what keep them alive. It rarely is.

I'm actually arguing the opposite here. I am saying that if I had been more active in trying to scum hunt like FT and ER in the early game, I probably would have died way sooner. If you have a crappy role that's ok, it still is beneficial to town. But if you had a role like mine, where if you died it wasted an entire DP... I think playing to stay alive is a better move. I know for a fact you guys left me alive as a potential mislynch.
TheGreatAndPowerful
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9/18/2014 1:13:52 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
First, objective scoring. This is hard. Objectively, it's who you read as Town/Scum. While I agree the best way to do this is have Town submit their reads in the PM at the end of each DP, the problem I see with this is reads are more likely to change *during* the DP.

So let's say I never read Khaos as scum (lol), so I never report him as scum in my PM. But, then he slips and I catch it and get him lynched. Problem is, I don't get credit for that in this scoring system.

To compensate, I'd say you get credit for a "read" if you were Town, voting on a wagon that got scum lynched. That is, if scum got lynched and I was on that wagon, I get credit at the end of the DP as if they were still alive and I submitted them as a scum read.

I think factors should be: how many scum you correctly read.
How consistent your reads are. For example:

It's easier to read scum at the end, by sheer chance. If I scum read someone the entire game, that's indicative of better skill than scum reading them at the last minute.

On the flip side, if I'm changing my reads each and every day, that's indicative of less skill than figuring them out early and maintaining those reads.

Then again, someone could game this by reading *everyone* alive as scum each and every day. They're guessing correctly and consistently, so we'd have to be able to distinguish between targeted guessing and shot-gun guessing. It's surely a mathematical question that I'd have to ponder.

As far as scum, I think for scum it's simply survivability. Scum skill is in how long you can survive the game, simple as that.
RevL8ion
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9/18/2014 1:20:11 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
Maybe we could create two different leaderboards for Town, Mafia, and TP. I mean, they're all so different in terms of gameplay, it's virtually impossible to compare them in terms of skill.
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RevL8ion
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9/18/2014 1:20:45 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
*noob moment* How do you submit reads again?
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"Revelation is a tyrannical despot, not 13 years old." -max.wallace

"hehehehe...ahahaha....wahaha...AHHHHHHHHHHHAHA....pant...pant...pant...""...that's like sex for you, isn't it?" RevL8ion on DDO and FlyingForever on Skype

"Just remember that Yama is more powerful than you, little mortal." -Yama

"XD I like you, Rev. Maybe I won't kill you off right away." -Endark
Buddamoose
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9/18/2014 1:23:42 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 9/18/2014 1:13:52 PM, TheGreatAndPowerful wrote:
First, objective scoring. This is hard. Objectively, it's who you read as Town/Scum. While I agree the best way to do this is have Town submit their reads in the PM at the end of each DP, the problem I see with this is reads are more likely to change *during* the DP.

So let's say I never read Khaos as scum (lol), so I never report him as scum in my PM. But, then he slips and I catch it and get him lynched. Problem is, I don't get credit for that in this scoring system.


To compensate, I'd say you get credit for a "read" if you were Town, voting on a wagon that got scum lynched. That is, if scum got lynched and I was on that wagon, I get credit at the end of the DP as if they were still alive and I submitted them as a scum read.

ok, this makes sense. So then it would be a matter of attributing a fair amount of points in relation to other points being awarded.

I think factors should be: how many scum you correctly read.
How consistent your reads are. For example:

It's easier to read scum at the end, by sheer chance. If I scum read someone the entire game, that's indicative of better skill than scum reading them at the last minute.

Ok, so consistency, so say you scum-read someone correctly D1, you get the base point. You scum read them again D2(so long as they are alive) you get an additional point on top of the one base for scum-reading correctly.

On the flip side, if I'm changing my reads each and every day, that's indicative of less skill than figuring them out early and maintaining those reads.

ok, and i think that awarding points based off of

Then again, someone could game this by reading *everyone* alive as scum each and every day. They're guessing correctly and consistently, so we'd have to be able to distinguish between targeted guessing and shot-gun guessing. It's surely a mathematical question that I'd have to ponder.

and this is where game formats would come into play. Say the games are 14 player games. Well in a themed semi-open set-up, would it be advisable to disclose that there are 4 mafia in the game?

That way, someone has to narrow down their scum-reads to a set of 4, and by default the rest become town-reads. And that is where total read percentage comes into play.

As far as scum, I think for scum it's simply survivability. Scum skill is in how long you can survive the game, simple as that.

yes, but sometimes as scum the best course of action may be to bus, or allow the bus of yourself, so as to ensure a victory. If additional points awarded to scum is based off of survivability, then bussing, a legitimate mafia tactic, really becomes counter-intuitive to increasing ones points output throughout the season, ya kno?
"Reality is an illusion created due to a lack of alcohol"
-Airmax1227

"You were the moon all this time, and he was always there to make you shine."

"Was he the sun?"

"No honey, he was the darkness"

-Kazekirion
Khaos_Mage
Posts: 23,214
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9/18/2014 1:27:12 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 9/18/2014 1:07:51 PM, TheGreatAndPowerful wrote:
At 9/18/2014 1:05:51 PM, Khaos_Mage wrote:
At 9/18/2014 12:53:06 PM, TheGreatAndPowerful wrote:

Exactly. Because after Bullish and I died in Themeless, you went back and saw our scum reads on 9space(Zaradi) and TN05 in DP1 and then lynched them both, winning the game for Town in a glorious manner.

What is your opinion on the matter, then?

Oh, I agree you should out your reads, but it is unfortunate to see that Town rarely goes back to review the reads of dead Townies. So I'm interesting in why you would tout this view when you don't do it. It seems to take away from your argument when you are proposing a course of action you don't adhere to.

Just because I am stubborn or foolish or arrogant, doesn't mean the option shouldn't be there. It doesn't mean others don't, or that I won't.

Further, it also serves as proof that players' reads should have merit. (again, I'm aware the irony of this, but I am trying to improve my reads, and relying on others' doesn't help me get better)

DP1, you know the scum team. Do you out them all, or feign ignorance to stay alive?

I'm not saying town follows through, but at least you, as town, have done all you can. Hiding your reads helps nobody.

I agree. And not following up on other's reads also helps nobody.
My work here is, finally, done.
Buddamoose
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9/18/2014 1:28:04 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 9/18/2014 1:16:22 PM, Wylted wrote:
You might need to state a minimal number of games to qualify as well.

well this would be "invitational" it wouldn't necessarily be a minimum number of games alone, though that would certainly play a factor. Rather, the participating players within the original season, would be determined by the group of three judges.

Some players would be left out for sure, however, in the future, nothing is preventing the formation of developmental divisions.

Like say:

Division 1
Division 2
Division 3

and movement between the divisions is determined by performance within said divisions.
"Reality is an illusion created due to a lack of alcohol"
-Airmax1227

"You were the moon all this time, and he was always there to make you shine."

"Was he the sun?"

"No honey, he was the darkness"

-Kazekirion
TheGreatAndPowerful
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9/18/2014 1:30:10 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 9/18/2014 1:23:42 PM, Buddamoose wrote:

yes, but sometimes as scum the best course of action may be to bus, or allow the bus of yourself, so as to ensure a victory. If additional points awarded to scum is based off of survivability, then bussing, a legitimate mafia tactic, really becomes counter-intuitive to increasing ones points output throughout the season, ya kno?

You usually only bus to get yourself out of a jam. No one busses just because. So, yeah, it could be a "good" tactic, but only because you're in a sub-optimal place to begin with. Ideally, you don't want to bus unless you have to.
Buddamoose
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9/18/2014 1:31:10 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
like say a potential game format might be:

Theme: NFL

Roles: Semi-open

A list of potential roles in the game is supplied. There can be multiples of roles in a faction, and any role can be either town or mafia.

Total Players: 14

Total Mafia: 4
Total TP: 0

and that could be the supplied format for a hypothetical OP
"Reality is an illusion created due to a lack of alcohol"
-Airmax1227

"You were the moon all this time, and he was always there to make you shine."

"Was he the sun?"

"No honey, he was the darkness"

-Kazekirion