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Mafia Community Improvements

Buddamoose
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10/1/2014 9:44:21 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
So i've noticed some issues being brought up in terms of the mafia community as a whole and figured i'd start a thread to see if anyne would be interested in assistng with some ideas for improvements to the communty i've both seen and had such as:

Player activity
Re-vamping of the "Guide to Mafia
Re-vamping of the "Adopt a new player" system
Attraction of new players to the community

Or anything other ideas that current community members might have
"Reality is an illusion created due to a lack of alcohol"
-Airmax1227

"You were the moon all this time, and he was always there to make you shine."

"Was he the sun?"

"No honey, he was the darkness"

-Kazekirion
TUF
Posts: 21,309
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10/2/2014 6:36:21 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 10/1/2014 9:44:21 PM, Buddamoose wrote:
So i've noticed some issues being brought up in terms of the mafia community as a whole and figured i'd start a thread to see if anyne would be interested in assistng with some ideas for improvements to the communty i've both seen and had such as:

Player activity
Re-vamping of the "Guide to Mafia
Re-vamping of the "Adopt a new player" system
Attraction of new players to the community

Or anything other ideas that current community members might have

A lot of these need to be renewed. I also talked to airmax about removing some unnecessary stickies but I will bring it back up to him. I am willing to help with a guide as well given Things have changed so much. Do you think the adopt a noob thread is still needed given the advancements of the beginner's series over the last year?
"I've got to go and grab a shirt" ~ Airmax1227
Buddamoose
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10/2/2014 6:59:09 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 10/2/2014 6:36:21 AM, TUF wrote:
At 10/1/2014 9:44:21 PM, Buddamoose wrote:
So i've noticed some issues being brought up in terms of the mafia community as a whole and figured i'd start a thread to see if anyne would be interested in assistng with some ideas for improvements to the communty i've both seen and had such as:

Player activity
Re-vamping of the "Guide to Mafia
Re-vamping of the "Adopt a new player" system
Attraction of new players to the community

Or anything other ideas that current community members might have

A lot of these need to be renewed. I also talked to airmax about removing some unnecessary stickies but I will bring it back up to him. I am willing to help with a guide as well given Things have changed so much. Do you think the adopt a noob thread is still needed given the advancements of the beginner's series over the last year?

If we can get a dedicated group of core players willing to partner or "hydra" with new players, say after they've played in a beginner's series, then i think it would honestly have naught but a positive impact.

I see the "adopt a new player" system as an intermediary between the beginner's series, and being on ones own in regular games. Imho that is its best time for usage
"Reality is an illusion created due to a lack of alcohol"
-Airmax1227

"You were the moon all this time, and he was always there to make you shine."

"Was he the sun?"

"No honey, he was the darkness"

-Kazekirion
TheGreatAndPowerful
Posts: 3,012
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10/2/2014 10:02:05 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 10/2/2014 6:36:21 AM, TUF wrote:
At 10/1/2014 9:44:21 PM, Buddamoose wrote:
So i've noticed some issues being brought up in terms of the mafia community as a whole and figured i'd start a thread to see if anyne would be interested in assistng with some ideas for improvements to the communty i've both seen and had such as:

Player activity
Re-vamping of the "Guide to Mafia
Re-vamping of the "Adopt a new player" system
Attraction of new players to the community

Or anything other ideas that current community members might have

A lot of these need to be renewed. I also talked to airmax about removing some unnecessary stickies but I will bring it back up to him. I am willing to help with a guide as well given Things have changed so much. Do you think the adopt a noob thread is still needed given the advancements of the beginner's series over the last year?

I've actually been wondering if the Beginner's game should be redesigned a bit given that it has few actual beginners. I was supposed to take back over after bsh1 stepped down, but somehow that got transferred to Wylted.
TheGreatAndPowerful
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10/2/2014 10:07:32 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
Specifically, since we have a lot of people who are no longer beginners, but perhaps could use more experience, I was thinking of scrapping the beginner series in favor of just an ongoing, simplified set-up of revolving mafia games.

Not quite quick-fire, but 10 player, open/semi-open set-ups that just run constantly.

While I like the idea of the evolving beginner series, I think it is starting to outlive its usefulness, as least given the current set of players. Committing to 3-4 games is a bit much. Right now, it just seems to be an excuse for people to get extra games in between official games. Which is fine, but if we are going to do that, I think we should do that explicitly.

bsh1 had indicated that he might be stepping down (after the Themeless fiasco) and I messaged him about taking over. He said he had changed his mind, but would let me know if he was going to stop doing them.
TUF
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10/2/2014 10:19:08 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 10/2/2014 10:07:32 AM, TheGreatAndPowerful wrote:
Specifically, since we have a lot of people who are no longer beginners, but perhaps could use more experience, I was thinking of scrapping the beginner series in favor of just an ongoing, simplified set-up of revolving mafia games.

Not quite quick-fire, but 10 player, open/semi-open set-ups that just run constantly.

While I like the idea of the evolving beginner series, I think it is starting to outlive its usefulness, as least given the current set of players. Committing to 3-4 games is a bit much. Right now, it just seems to be an excuse for people to get extra games in between official games. Which is fine, but if we are going to do that, I think we should do that explicitly.

bsh1 had indicated that he might be stepping down (after the Themeless fiasco) and I messaged him about taking over. He said he had changed his mind, but would let me know if he was going to stop doing them.

I've noticed that too. Most of the beginner's series seem to be comprised of players who aren't beginners and I agree that it almost looks like an entirely separate set of games that sneaks past the list.
"I've got to go and grab a shirt" ~ Airmax1227
Buddamoose
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10/2/2014 10:21:26 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 10/2/2014 10:07:32 AM, TheGreatAndPowerful wrote:
Specifically, since we have a lot of people who are no longer beginners, but perhaps could use more experience, I was thinking of scrapping the beginner series in favor of just an ongoing, simplified set-up of revolving mafia games.

Not quite quick-fire, but 10 player, open/semi-open set-ups that just run constantly.

While I like the idea of the evolving beginner series, I think it is starting to outlive its usefulness, as least given the current set of players. Committing to 3-4 games is a bit much. Right now, it just seems to be an excuse for people to get extra games in between official games. Which is fine, but if we are going to do that, I think we should do that explicitly.

bsh1 had indicated that he might be stepping down (after the Themeless fiasco) and I messaged him about taking over. He said he had changed his mind, but would let me know if he was going to stop doing them.

I like this idea. Seems like an excellent evolution for the beginners series into something that more suits the community.

Maybe still have a "beginners series" but only start one up if a minimum of truly new players can be met. Other than that stragglers that want to join on occasion can be placed into the evolved series and partnered with an experienced player via the "adopt a new player" system.

This way these new players get experience in playing, while also being able to learn from a experienced veteran player at the same time.
"Reality is an illusion created due to a lack of alcohol"
-Airmax1227

"You were the moon all this time, and he was always there to make you shine."

"Was he the sun?"

"No honey, he was the darkness"

-Kazekirion
Bullish
Posts: 3,527
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10/2/2014 10:39:00 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
I support scrapping the beginners series, and having TGAP start to run a new year-round series, provided that this new series meets reasonable constraints.

I wrote a bit about the Beginner series here: http://www.debate.org...
"...individuals who have less commitment to or have less seriousness for the game sign up to play [the beginner series]. This is a good thing since it keeps players of different levels separated. So then, the Beginners series is a separate entity from the main games.

The new series should be simple, light on themes and mechanics, in order to accommodate players of al skill levels.
They should be normal, that means no bastard modding practices, in order to stay consistent.
They should be regular, held frequently, in order to fill the game gaps.

If agreed upon, only one person should start running the games, in order to avoid confusion and conflicts.
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TheGreatAndPowerful
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10/3/2014 5:58:22 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 10/2/2014 10:39:00 PM, Bullish wrote:
I support scrapping the beginners series, and having TGAP start to run a new year-round series, provided that this new series meets reasonable constraints.

I wrote a bit about the Beginner series here: http://www.debate.org...
"...individuals who have less commitment to or have less seriousness for the game sign up to play [the beginner series]. This is a good thing since it keeps players of different levels separated. So then, the Beginners series is a separate entity from the main games.

The new series should be simple, light on themes and mechanics, in order to accommodate players of al skill levels.
They should be normal, that means no bastard modding practices, in order to stay consistent.
They should be regular, held frequently, in order to fill the game gaps.

If agreed upon, only one person should start running the games, in order to avoid confusion and conflicts.

This is exactly what I had in mind. 7-9 player games. Open set-ups. Only 1-2 actual roles, rest are vanillas. No Themes or additional mechanics.
Khaos_Mage
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10/4/2014 3:30:04 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
In defense of the beginner series, it doesn't help that the majority of noobs that sign up quit or are replaced out.

However, I agree with much of what has been said here.
My work here is, finally, done.
bsh1
Posts: 27,504
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10/4/2014 7:57:29 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 10/2/2014 10:02:05 AM, TheGreatAndPowerful wrote:
At 10/2/2014 6:36:21 AM, TUF wrote:
At 10/1/2014 9:44:21 PM, Buddamoose wrote:
So i've noticed some issues being brought up in terms of the mafia community as a whole and figured i'd start a thread to see if anyne would be interested in assistng with some ideas for improvements to the communty i've both seen and had such as:

Player activity
Re-vamping of the "Guide to Mafia
Re-vamping of the "Adopt a new player" system
Attraction of new players to the community

Or anything other ideas that current community members might have

A lot of these need to be renewed. I also talked to airmax about removing some unnecessary stickies but I will bring it back up to him. I am willing to help with a guide as well given Things have changed so much. Do you think the adopt a noob thread is still needed given the advancements of the beginner's series over the last year?

I've actually been wondering if the Beginner's game should be redesigned a bit given that it has few actual beginners. I was supposed to take back over after bsh1 stepped down, but somehow that got transferred to Wylted.

I have not stepped down and it hasn't been transferred to Wylted.

New mods often ask to co-mod in the beginners' series to gain practice modding. It seems to fit with the spirit of the series, so I encourage it. Wylted is co-modding for that reason.
Live Long and Prosper

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"Twilight isn't just about obtuse metaphors between cannibalism and premarital sex, it also teaches us the futility of hope." - Raisor

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bsh1
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10/4/2014 9:32:34 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
I am not sure I agree with the proposed edits to the series, but I'll post my thoughts tomorrow. I'm too tired to think clearly tonight. I am only online to talk to YYW...nothing else, really.
Live Long and Prosper

I'm a Bish.


"Twilight isn't just about obtuse metaphors between cannibalism and premarital sex, it also teaches us the futility of hope." - Raisor

"[Bsh1] is the Guinan of DDO." - ButterCatX

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bsh1
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10/6/2014 5:22:34 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
My Thoughts:

- Scrapping the Beginners Series and Replacing it With an Ongoing Game

I dislike this idea for several reasons, the main one being that it just sort of throws noobs to the wolves. They should be scaled up varying levels of difficulty before they're asked to play. You talked about a simplified set-up? Would this entail themes or not? If it entails themes, it could be too much at once--the gradual process reinforces learning. If it doesn't entail themes, it gives no exposure regarding themes to players. Either way it's a loss, IMO. I also have some logistical concerns, such as how an ongoing game would be arranged, how affiliations would be assigned, how the game would work in general, etc. Part of the problem in games with non-beginners is that they push for the beginners' lynch early on--while not all beginners' series manage to cap the number of ringers (experienced players), I try to limit it as much as I can. It seems like this game would be a free for all where anyone can join. It's no longer specifically for beginners'.

- The Beginners' Series is no longer centered around noobs

I disagree with this in part. Sure, some of my series have several experienced members in them, but some are almost exclusively noobs. I can go back and pull links if you want, but this isn't a fair generalization. Some games may fit it, some definitely don't. Also, the series has produced many contributing mafia members like Wylted, XLAV, Dalt, Number, and more. It has its utility still.

My Recommendations

I would suggest creating either an intermediates level that was less noob-centric to run in addition to the beginners series; to graduate people from the beginners' series to the adopt-a-noob program; and/or to create a series that was small 6-8 players, that ran continuously and was designed for more experienced members so that they wouldn't feel the need to join the beginners' series to fit in extra games.
Live Long and Prosper

I'm a Bish.


"Twilight isn't just about obtuse metaphors between cannibalism and premarital sex, it also teaches us the futility of hope." - Raisor

"[Bsh1] is the Guinan of DDO." - ButterCatX

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TheGreatAndPowerful
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10/6/2014 7:56:39 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 10/6/2014 5:22:34 PM, bsh1 wrote:

My Recommendations

I would suggest creating either an intermediates level that was less noob-centric to run in addition to the beginners series; to graduate people from the beginners' series to the adopt-a-noob program; and/or to create a series that was small 6-8 players, that ran continuously and was designed for more experienced members so that they wouldn't feel the need to join the beginners' series to fit in extra games.

That's exactly what I proposed, minus the running concurrently with the Beginners. The purpose of the Beginner's series as I designed it was for people unfamiliar with mafia. Not people who were merely inexperienced, or needed some more practice, but didn't know what the hell the game was to begin with.

That's why you have those walls of texts at the beginning of each phase, because you're teaching people what the game is. Look at the current batch and tell me that they seriously need to be told what game is about, what roles and day phases are.

I don't think there is a level of activity that can support another concurrent series and I don't think there is enough influx of fresh meat to sustain the Beginner's series as intended.
bsh1
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10/6/2014 8:05:21 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 10/6/2014 7:56:39 PM, TheGreatAndPowerful wrote:
At 10/6/2014 5:22:34 PM, bsh1 wrote:

My Recommendations

I would suggest creating either an intermediates level that was less noob-centric to run in addition to the beginners series; to graduate people from the beginners' series to the adopt-a-noob program; and/or to create a series that was small 6-8 players, that ran continuously and was designed for more experienced members so that they wouldn't feel the need to join the beginners' series to fit in extra games.

That's exactly what I proposed, minus the running concurrently with the Beginners. The purpose of the Beginner's series as I designed it was for people unfamiliar with mafia. Not people who were merely inexperienced, or needed some more practice, but didn't know what the hell the game was to begin with.

The concurrent running is important, and every beginners' series there is at least one person who has no idea what's going on, and as recently as one of the last 5 games we had a series that was overwhelmingly noobs. Moreover, for some people, it does take a few runs through the series to full understand how things work, and the walls-of-text serves to help remind them of and reinforce concepts.

I don't think there is a level of activity that can support another concurrent series and I don't think there is enough influx of fresh meat to sustain the Beginner's series as intended.

I disagree. I have requests every series from new mafia players to join.
Live Long and Prosper

I'm a Bish.


"Twilight isn't just about obtuse metaphors between cannibalism and premarital sex, it also teaches us the futility of hope." - Raisor

"[Bsh1] is the Guinan of DDO." - ButterCatX

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Bullish
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10/6/2014 8:43:54 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
We can't have 2 running series run concurrently, because that would suck all the activity away, and list games would not be able to run quickly enough.

I put my game up on June 14 ( http://www.debate.org... ), and it'll probably be another month for my game to get going. At the rate games look like they are going now, it may take up to 9~10 months for a list game go from the list to actually running.

So, there must be only 1 running series.

Looking at the past few Beginners' games, there have been on average only 1 or 2 total newbs. In contrast, games on MafiaScum usually have 6 newbs out of 9 players. What this means is the newbs aren't really getting a new player experience at all. They are thrown in "with the wolves" as much as if they would in any other game. Perhaps the ONLY contention of comfort is the name of the series itself, "Beginners."

In addition, Beginners' mafia games last 3 games, and many newbs sign up for 2 or more editions. Again, in contrast, MafiaScum allows each person to play only TWO newb games, and they are not allowed to play another unless they are one of the 3 ringers. 3 games is far too much commitment, for what is suppose to be for new players to try out as much as to learn.

The running series is in fact more accommodating to new players, because it eliminates role-madness as a confusing element.

The fact that newbs join Beginners' games is not an argument for keeping the entire system. newbs can join games that are not named "Beginners" as they wish, and they will have the same effect -- as an entry game. If this new running series is simpler or similar enough to the Beginners series, then there is nothing to prevent newbs from joining such games.

Newbs can learn as well from designated sources as from the OP of every DP1 they play in.

The proposed series is theoretically superior to the current series because first, it has no 3-game commitment, second, it is not role-mad and therefore less confusing for newer players, and third, it fulfills a need for games in between list games.
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bsh1
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10/7/2014 12:42:19 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 10/6/2014 8:43:54 PM, Bullish wrote:
We can't have 2 running series run concurrently, because that would suck all the activity away, and list games would not be able to run quickly enough.

Your falsely assuming that it would suck away activity. The current series doesn't because most non-noobs, and even some inexperienced players will double enter in the series and other games. For those who don't double enter, they normally join the series during slow periods where other games aren't available. So, it doesn't suck away activity.

I see no reason to see why my proposals are any different. Besides, if you don't want concurrent series running, then have noobs graduate into the adopt-a-noob program. So, complete 1-2 series and then get a mentor for a 1-2 non-beginners' games.

Looking at the past few Beginners' games, there have been on average only 1 or 2 total newbs. In contrast, games on MafiaScum usually have 6 newbs out of 9 players. What this means is the newbs aren't really getting a new player experience at all. They are thrown in "with the wolves" as much as if they would in any other game. Perhaps the ONLY contention of comfort is the name of the series itself, "Beginners."

If we define a noob as someone who has done between 1 and 2 beginners' series and who obviously didn't have much experience in forum mafia, the 30.X series had 3 noobs, 29.X had 5 noobs, 28.X had 4 noobs, 27.X had 2 noobs, 26.X had 5 noobs, and 25.X had 3 noobs. So, recently, the average number of noobs per series is about 4 [{(3+5+4+2+5+3)/6} = 3.67]. I did this analysis pretty quickly, so I might be a bit off, but this still shows, IMO, that the average is far higher than one or two.

Plus, I still have multiple logistical/practical concerns about how to implement Drafter's contentious game idea.

In addition, Beginners' mafia games last 3 games, and many newbs sign up for 2 or more editions. Again, in contrast, MafiaScum allows each person to play only TWO newb games, and they are not allowed to play another unless they are one of the 3 ringers. 3 games is far too much commitment, for what is suppose to be for new players to try out as much as to learn.

This is not MafiaScum, this is DDO. I would like to think that DDO is perhaps a little less intense when it comes to mafia, and that we're willing to allow noobs to gain some useful practice. For many noobs--including myself when I first joined--it takes multiple series to actually grasp the concept.

The running series is in fact more accommodating to new players, because it eliminates role-madness as a confusing element.

Then it gives no practice re: roles to noobs. The graduated method avoids being overly complex, but it gives practice with roles to noobs at the same time.
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"Twilight isn't just about obtuse metaphors between cannibalism and premarital sex, it also teaches us the futility of hope." - Raisor

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TheGreatAndPowerful
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10/7/2014 1:00:10 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 10/7/2014 12:42:19 PM, bsh1 wrote:

If we define a noob as someone who has done between 1 and 2 beginners' series and who obviously didn't have much experience in forum mafia, the 30.X series had 3 noobs, 29.X had 5 noobs, 28.X had 4 noobs, 27.X had 2 noobs, 26.X had 5 noobs, and 25.X had 3 noobs. So, recently, the average number of noobs per series is about 4 [{(3+5+4+2+5+3)/6} = 3.67]. I did this analysis pretty quickly, so I might be a bit off, but this still shows, IMO, that the average is far higher than one or two.

Yes, and when I rebooted the beginners series I was doing my best to ensure that all but 2 of then were actual noobs, people that had never played the game before or, perhaps, only played a single beginner series before. So you may thing that half is average, but it's actually way below from when things started.

Consider:
13.x - http://www.debate.org...
15.x - http://www.debate.org...
16.x - http://www.debate.org...

Plus, I still have multiple logistical/practical concerns about how to implement Drafter's contentious game idea.

....

The only way your suggestion differs from mine is that mine replaces, rather than runs concurrently with, the Beginner games. That's it. I'm not sure what you imagine I'm suggesting but there are no "logistical/practical" problems. You replace the Beginners games with a new, ongoing Mafia series.

This is not MafiaScum, this is DDO. I would like to think that DDO is perhaps a little less intense when it comes to mafia, and that we're willing to allow noobs to gain some useful practice. For many noobs--including myself when I first joined--it takes multiple series to actually grasp the concept.

You're impression is wrong. Compared to DDO, MafiaScum is glacial. Day phases take weeks and are filled with endless hemming and hawing. Imagine if Ents ran a Mafia gaming forum.

We are somewhere in between Mafiascum and EpicMafia and I agree that we are our own beast, but that is not to say we can't learn or adapt ideas from other sites to our own purposes, or learn lessons from things from other sites.
bsh1
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10/7/2014 1:35:37 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 10/7/2014 1:00:10 PM, TheGreatAndPowerful wrote:
At 10/7/2014 12:42:19 PM, bsh1 wrote:

If we define a noob as someone who has done between 1 and 2 beginners' series and who obviously didn't have much experience in forum mafia, the 30.X series had 3 noobs, 29.X had 5 noobs, 28.X had 4 noobs, 27.X had 2 noobs, 26.X had 5 noobs, and 25.X had 3 noobs. So, recently, the average number of noobs per series is about 4 [{(3+5+4+2+5+3)/6} = 3.67]. I did this analysis pretty quickly, so I might be a bit off, but this still shows, IMO, that the average is far higher than one or two.

Yes, and when I rebooted the beginners series I was doing my best to ensure that all but 2 of then were actual noobs, people that had never played the game before or, perhaps, only played a single beginner series before. So you may thing that half is average, but it's actually way below from when things started.

I try to do the same, but half is not bad at all, IMO. I think that were the average 1 or 2, it would be harder to justify the current series, but an average of 4 or 5 is sufficient to demonstrate the utility of the system as it exists.

Plus, I still have multiple logistical/practical concerns about how to implement Drafter's contentious game idea.

The only way your suggestion differs from mine is that mine replaces, rather than runs concurrently with, the Beginner games. That's it. I'm not sure what you imagine I'm suggesting but there are no "logistical/practical" problems. You replace the Beginners games with a new, ongoing Mafia series.

Explain to me what you mean by an "ongoing" game.

This is not MafiaScum, this is DDO. I would like to think that DDO is perhaps a little less intense when it comes to mafia, and that we're willing to allow noobs to gain some useful practice. For many noobs--including myself when I first joined--it takes multiple series to actually grasp the concept.

You're impression is wrong. Compared to DDO, MafiaScum is glacial. Day phases take weeks and are filled with endless hemming and hawing. Imagine if Ents ran a Mafia gaming forum.

Glacial doesn't mean unintense. If the games runs glacially, then why is one series not comparable to one game?

We are somewhere in between Mafiascum and EpicMafia and I agree that we are our own beast, but that is not to say we can't learn or adapt ideas from other sites to our own purposes, or learn lessons from things from other sites.

Agreed, but we shouldn't do X just because others do X.
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"Twilight isn't just about obtuse metaphors between cannibalism and premarital sex, it also teaches us the futility of hope." - Raisor

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TheGreatAndPowerful
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10/7/2014 1:59:08 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 10/7/2014 1:35:37 PM, bsh1 wrote:

I try to do the same, but half is not bad at all, IMO. I think that were the average 1 or 2, it would be harder to justify the current series, but an average of 4 or 5 is sufficient to demonstrate the utility of the system as it exists.

Well, yes. This seems obvious. In comparing the current state of the game with your run (which just happens to be the current state of the game), you observe no decline because you are comparing it with itself. I'm not doing that. I'm comparing it with historical Beginners games, and I observe a decline. No one is discounting your efforts, but there is no denying the decrease in interest in Mafia from previously non-Mafia players.

The only way your suggestion differs from mine is that mine replaces, rather than runs concurrently with, the Beginner games. That's it. I'm not sure what you imagine I'm suggesting but there are no "logistical/practical" problems. You replace the Beginners games with a new, ongoing Mafia series.

Explain to me what you mean by an "ongoing" game.

You start a game. It ends. You start another game. Repeat.

You're impression is wrong. Compared to DDO, MafiaScum is glacial. Day phases take weeks and are filled with endless hemming and hawing. Imagine if Ents ran a Mafia gaming forum.

Glacial doesn't mean unintense. If the games runs glacially, then why is one series not comparable to one game?

Because one involves new roles, resurrection of players, reassignment of affiliations and roles, etc.


We are somewhere in between Mafiascum and EpicMafia and I agree that we are our own beast, but that is not to say we can't learn or adapt ideas from other sites to our own purposes, or learn lessons from things from other sites.

Agreed, but we shouldn't do X just because others do X.

No one is suggesting that. However, you did merely dismiss it simply because the idea referenced something off site. So neither should we dismiss X simply because we didn't think of it first.
bsh1
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10/7/2014 2:20:34 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 10/7/2014 1:59:08 PM, TheGreatAndPowerful wrote:
At 10/7/2014 1:35:37 PM, bsh1 wrote:

I try to do the same, but half is not bad at all, IMO. I think that were the average 1 or 2, it would be harder to justify the current series, but an average of 4 or 5 is sufficient to demonstrate the utility of the system as it exists.

Well, yes. This seems obvious. In comparing the current state of the game with your run (which just happens to be the current state of the game), you observe no decline because you are comparing it with itself. I'm not doing that. I'm comparing it with historical Beginners games, and I observe a decline. No one is discounting your efforts, but there is no denying the decrease in interest in Mafia from previously non-Mafia players.

Perhaps there is such a decline, but, I think that right now there are still enough people interested and that they learn and takeaway enough, that I see no reason to change the existing system. I feel like people like Bullish are vastly underestimating the number of noobs that participate.

You're impression is wrong. Compared to DDO, MafiaScum is glacial. Day phases take weeks and are filled with endless hemming and hawing. Imagine if Ents ran a Mafia gaming forum.

Glacial doesn't mean unintense. If the games runs glacially, then why is one series not comparable to one game?

Because one involves new roles, resurrection of players, reassignment of affiliations and roles, etc.

I meant in a temporal sense. People have complained the beginners' series is too long, but the graduated, multi-game approach seems to have, IMO, many advantages.

We are somewhere in between Mafiascum and EpicMafia and I agree that we are our own beast, but that is not to say we can't learn or adapt ideas from other sites to our own purposes, or learn lessons from things from other sites.

Agreed, but we shouldn't do X just because others do X.

No one is suggesting that. However, you did merely dismiss it simply because the idea referenced something off site. So neither should we dismiss X simply because we didn't think of it first.

I am not doing any of these things. I have raised, I think, several reasonable concerns and points.
Live Long and Prosper

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"Twilight isn't just about obtuse metaphors between cannibalism and premarital sex, it also teaches us the futility of hope." - Raisor

"[Bsh1] is the Guinan of DDO." - ButterCatX

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TheGreatAndPowerful
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10/7/2014 6:37:20 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 10/7/2014 2:20:34 PM, bsh1 wrote:
At 10/7/2014 1:59:08 PM, TheGreatAndPowerful wrote:
At 10/7/2014 1:35:37 PM, bsh1 wrote:

I try to do the same, but half is not bad at all, IMO. I think that were the average 1 or 2, it would be harder to justify the current series, but an average of 4 or 5 is sufficient to demonstrate the utility of the system as it exists.

Well, yes. This seems obvious. In comparing the current state of the game with your run (which just happens to be the current state of the game), you observe no decline because you are comparing it with itself. I'm not doing that. I'm comparing it with historical Beginners games, and I observe a decline. No one is discounting your efforts, but there is no denying the decrease in interest in Mafia from previously non-Mafia players.

Perhaps there is such a decline, but, I think that right now there are still enough people interested and that they learn and takeaway enough, that I see no reason to change the existing system. I feel like people like Bullish are vastly underestimating the number of noobs that participate.

There seems to be support for a change from more than just me and Bullish.


You're impression is wrong. Compared to DDO, MafiaScum is glacial. Day phases take weeks and are filled with endless hemming and hawing. Imagine if Ents ran a Mafia gaming forum.

Glacial doesn't mean unintense. If the games runs glacially, then why is one series not comparable to one game?

Because one involves new roles, resurrection of players, reassignment of affiliations and roles, etc.

I meant in a temporal sense. People have complained the beginners' series is too long, but the graduated, multi-game approach seems to have, IMO, many advantages.

I agree, when you have the player base to support it. I don't think that's the case at the moment.


We are somewhere in between Mafiascum and EpicMafia and I agree that we are our own beast, but that is not to say we can't learn or adapt ideas from other sites to our own purposes, or learn lessons from things from other sites.

Agreed, but we shouldn't do X just because others do X.

No one is suggesting that. However, you did merely dismiss it simply because the idea referenced something off site. So neither should we dismiss X simply because we didn't think of it first.

I am not doing any of these things. I have raised, I think, several reasonable concerns and points.

I'm still unclear what they are, as the only difference between what I said and you countered with is whether or to continue the a Beginners games. I'm unclear about these logistical and practical issue you reference.
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10/7/2014 6:43:09 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 10/7/2014 6:37:20 PM, TheGreatAndPowerful wrote:
At 10/7/2014 2:20:34 PM, bsh1 wrote:
At 10/7/2014 1:59:08 PM, TheGreatAndPowerful wrote:
At 10/7/2014 1:35:37 PM, bsh1 wrote:

You're impression is wrong. Compared to DDO, MafiaScum is glacial. Day phases take weeks and are filled with endless hemming and hawing. Imagine if Ents ran a Mafia gaming forum.

Glacial doesn't mean unintense. If the games runs glacially, then why is one series not comparable to one game?

Because one involves new roles, resurrection of players, reassignment of affiliations and roles, etc.

I meant in a temporal sense. People have complained the beginners' series is too long, but the graduated, multi-game approach seems to have, IMO, many advantages.

I agree, when you have the player base to support it. I don't think that's the case at the moment.

We're going to have to agree to disagree. I see no compelling reason to alter the status quo. If anything, since some people would like a change, noobs should automatically graduate the program after two series, whereupon they're free to seek mentorship via a revived adopt-a-noob program.
Live Long and Prosper

I'm a Bish.


"Twilight isn't just about obtuse metaphors between cannibalism and premarital sex, it also teaches us the futility of hope." - Raisor

"[Bsh1] is the Guinan of DDO." - ButterCatX

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10/7/2014 7:49:35 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 10/7/2014 6:43:09 PM, bsh1 wrote:
At 10/7/2014 6:37:20 PM, TheGreatAndPowerful wrote:
At 10/7/2014 2:20:34 PM, bsh1 wrote:
At 10/7/2014 1:59:08 PM, TheGreatAndPowerful wrote:
At 10/7/2014 1:35:37 PM, bsh1 wrote:

You're impression is wrong. Compared to DDO, MafiaScum is glacial. Day phases take weeks and are filled with endless hemming and hawing. Imagine if Ents ran a Mafia gaming forum.

Glacial doesn't mean unintense. If the games runs glacially, then why is one series not comparable to one game?

Because one involves new roles, resurrection of players, reassignment of affiliations and roles, etc.

I meant in a temporal sense. People have complained the beginners' series is too long, but the graduated, multi-game approach seems to have, IMO, many advantages.

I agree, when you have the player base to support it. I don't think that's the case at the moment.

We're going to have to agree to disagree. I see no compelling reason to alter the status quo. If anything, since some people would like a change, noobs should automatically graduate the program after two series, whereupon they're free to seek mentorship via a revived adopt-a-noob program.

But that's not a change. The recommendation was only ever for one series completion.
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10/7/2014 7:59:42 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 10/7/2014 7:49:35 PM, TheGreatAndPowerful wrote:
At 10/7/2014 6:43:09 PM, bsh1 wrote:
At 10/7/2014 6:37:20 PM, TheGreatAndPowerful wrote:
At 10/7/2014 2:20:34 PM, bsh1 wrote:
At 10/7/2014 1:59:08 PM, TheGreatAndPowerful wrote:
At 10/7/2014 1:35:37 PM, bsh1 wrote:

You're impression is wrong. Compared to DDO, MafiaScum is glacial. Day phases take weeks and are filled with endless hemming and hawing. Imagine if Ents ran a Mafia gaming forum.

Glacial doesn't mean unintense. If the games runs glacially, then why is one series not comparable to one game?

Because one involves new roles, resurrection of players, reassignment of affiliations and roles, etc.

I meant in a temporal sense. People have complained the beginners' series is too long, but the graduated, multi-game approach seems to have, IMO, many advantages.

I agree, when you have the player base to support it. I don't think that's the case at the moment.

We're going to have to agree to disagree. I see no compelling reason to alter the status quo. If anything, since some people would like a change, noobs should automatically graduate the program after two series, whereupon they're free to seek mentorship via a revived adopt-a-noob program.

But that's not a change. The recommendation was only ever for one series completion.

They could choose to graduate after one, but would be forced to graduate after two. Personally, I don't think allowing noobs to complete two series is bad, but, if pressed, one series would be fine IMO.
Live Long and Prosper

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"Twilight isn't just about obtuse metaphors between cannibalism and premarital sex, it also teaches us the futility of hope." - Raisor

"[Bsh1] is the Guinan of DDO." - ButterCatX

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10/8/2014 11:54:35 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
So, unless there are any strenuous objections, I will post the sign-ups for 31.X at around 2:00pm EST tomorrow. If any changes are to be made, they can be made after that series--discussions about those changes can continue whilst the series progresses.
Live Long and Prosper

I'm a Bish.


"Twilight isn't just about obtuse metaphors between cannibalism and premarital sex, it also teaches us the futility of hope." - Raisor

"[Bsh1] is the Guinan of DDO." - ButterCatX

Follow the DDOlympics
: http://www.debate.org...

Open Debate Topics Project: http://www.debate.org...
TheGreatAndPowerful
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10/9/2014 9:22:25 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 10/8/2014 11:54:35 PM, bsh1 wrote:
So, unless there are any strenuous objections, I will post the sign-ups for 31.X at around 2:00pm EST tomorrow. If any changes are to be made, they can be made after that series--discussions about those changes can continue whilst the series progresses.

I'd like the prominent participants to all be on board, so I'm fine with continuing the Beginner's series while we hash out the details, but it is not so much that there is "strenuous objections" with the Beginners series as much as there is substantial support for a change.