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Adventurer Mafia Endgame

Lucky_Luciano
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10/8/2014 7:56:16 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
The Town Wins!

1st Place Town: Khaos/Bsh1, TGAP(1), Endarkened, Debatability, Adam, Bullish(1), Bossy, TUF, Maikuru, Bullish(2), Daltonian

2nd Place Mafia: TGAP(2), Budda(2), Ford
2nd Place Third Party: Budda(1)

Google Doc: https://docs.google.com...

Keep in mind that the variation of the setup you guys played on was the third prototype listed.

TL;DR Doc Keynotes:

1. All animal kills after the first gave you experience, but did not influence what specializations you received. Level 3 was the only level that offered specializations.
2. This game had a rollover effect. All night-phase abilities that would ordinarily interact with factional night kills (Track, Watch, Doc, BP, etc.) roll-over into the following day-phase and instead interact with factional day kills. I.e., If a tracker tracks the Shifter at night, they will receive a result simultaneous with the Shifter"s daykill.
3. Both cops were mix-flavored. One was odd-night paranoid, the other was even-night paranoid.
4. Some roles were specifically mafia or town, most were not. Miller/Godfather were mirrored not because they are opposite roles, but because by losing the miller, the mafia loses a mislynch target, and therefore receive a Godfather as compensation if they killed the Bat in Shadow Valley.
5. The affiliations were truly randomized using Random.org. Hatstand can confirm.

TL;DR Game Keynotes:

Maikuru was the clear town MVP. He's a force to be reckoned with as town, and I'm surprised that the mafia didn't kill him earlier on. He got an from a proven cop who was believed to be insane, while vigging the other cop, and still lived until the end of the game. While mathematically his two night kills (Endarkened and Budda) cancelled each other out, they both were strategically brilliant. The town would have been worse off going with the cop-confirmation plan had Maikuru not vigged one of them, and his kill on Budda would have given the town a higher statistical chance of winning, even if Budda was town or if he got redirected.

I think that Trekie could have led the mafia to victory, but she replaced out right before the critical point in the game in order to focus more on her studies and schoolwork.

The mafia was actually painfully close to winning. NP2 went perfectly for the mafia, simply through the town's actions. On DP4 the mafia were down 3-5 and needed a single mislynch to win the game. Unfortunately, inactivity plagued the mafia. Two of the original 3 mafia members were replaced, and the 3rd was inactive in the later portions of the game. Despite Bossy catching Drafter, the mafia still only needed one more mislynch until they daykilled Bossy, who claimed to have been Doc'd. I was concerned when they submitted the daykill and made sure that the links to the previous mafia pms were working, because in those links I told the mafia about the rollover effect. I decided not to do anything else in order to avoid directly intervening, although I knew that if the original mafia were still in the game, they'd be aware of how much of a mistake they were making, so it was highly unfortunate. After that the game snowballed in the town's favor.

Another interesting note is that, if I remember correctly, every single reads list that was either publicly or privately made on DP1 included at least 2 of the 3 mafia members. I actually thought from people's initial reads that it would be a swift win for the town. The mafia had a really powerful set of roles, however, and the town had a lot of ways to be misled. Between the alternating cop flavors, the animal dissonance, and the mafia's redirect + roleblock combination, the game was still up in the air.

Budda was dissatisfied with his original role, believing that it was impossible for him to win. He never did discover his secondary wincondition, due to being too explicitly pro-town, partly because of receiving the watcher, partly because of actually claiming it, and partly because he's so hard to mislynch. Originally the Beast was supposed to have both the nightly kill and the nightly probe available to him, and to have both wincons known. He would only be able to choose one on each night, and he would only be able to probe one target. I decided last-minute to hide the nightly probe and secondary wincon from him until he received his specialization and to instead allow him to double up on probe targets so that he has the same number of probes throughout the game. I did this because I felt that if both wincons were available initially, he would have played towards the second one from the beginning and instead I wanted him to try to work out a plan to get an early beast kill so that he's forced into deciding which wincon is more strategically viable from a standpoint where both are perfectly reasonable options.

Overall I really enjoyed modding the game, and I hope that the players enjoyed participating. My day-to-day modding became lackluster as the game drew on due to having less time to commit to managing the game, but no game-breaking errors were made, thank goodness. I look forward to hearing everyone's thoughts.
"Age is not important" - Airmax 2014
"Australia... is that a place?" - Airmax 2014
TheGreatAndPowerful
Posts: 3,012
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10/8/2014 8:04:22 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
Great design and concept. Kudos to you, Lucky.

Town's main issue was ignoring inactives. Looking over the first three DPs, only one mafioso was ever on the lynch wagon. It's as if Town subconsciously even forgot they were there and, naturally, turned on each other a la Salem.

Always, always, always, go after inactives. If they can't be replaced, then just lynch-kick them. Simple as that. I think Town was lucky that it had enough mislynches available that it could start focusing on the inactives and their replacements via POE.
bossyburrito
Posts: 14,075
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10/8/2014 8:17:21 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
Thank God Town won. Amazing game - I really enjoyed it.

Khaos, I guess I owe you one eaten hat, huh. Sorry!
#UnbanTheMadman

"Some will sell their dreams for small desires
Or lose the race to rats
Get caught in ticking traps
And start to dream of somewhere
To relax their restless flight
Somewhere out of a memory of lighted streets on quiet nights..."

~ Rush
TheGreatAndPowerful
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10/8/2014 8:20:06 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
My only criticism is the cop flavors. They're really just pointless at that point. Might as well make them random rather than anything else.

The point of a flavored cop is, basically, to introduce some measurable delay in their effectiveness, resulting in a potential mislynch. With paranond and naive, there is a delay and then they discover they're basically vanilla. With insane, there is a delay and then they discover they're basically normal

With this, it would take too long to ascertain the precise nature of the flavoring, especially considering redirectors, framers, lawyers, godfathers and the such. It'd be no better than just giving them random results. There is no way we could have derived any utility from the cops whatsoever.
TheGreatAndPowerful
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10/8/2014 8:20:45 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 10/8/2014 8:17:21 PM, bossyburrito wrote:
Thank God Town won. Amazing game - I really enjoyed it.

Khaos, I guess I owe you one eaten hat, huh. Sorry!

Whatever, he was digging his own grave since NP1. I mean, really. I can't find any excuse for his actions, even in retrospect.
bossyburrito
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10/8/2014 8:24:21 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
So, after NP0, the animals you chose had no effect on Town's roles, correct?
#UnbanTheMadman

"Some will sell their dreams for small desires
Or lose the race to rats
Get caught in ticking traps
And start to dream of somewhere
To relax their restless flight
Somewhere out of a memory of lighted streets on quiet nights..."

~ Rush
Daltonian
Posts: 4,797
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10/8/2014 8:26:07 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
Oh, well, lol.

At least I was right about Budda.

Sorry for being paranoid about you, Maikuru + TUF. lulz :')
F _ C K
All I need is "u", baby
Lucky_Luciano
Posts: 4,350
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10/8/2014 8:28:08 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 10/8/2014 8:20:06 PM, TheGreatAndPowerful wrote:
My only criticism is the cop flavors. They're really just pointless at that point. Might as well make them random rather than anything else.

The point of a flavored cop is, basically, to introduce some measurable delay in their effectiveness, resulting in a potential mislynch. With paranond and naive, there is a delay and then they discover they're basically vanilla. With insane, there is a delay and then they discover they're basically normal

With this, it would take too long to ascertain the precise nature of the flavoring, especially considering redirectors, framers, lawyers, godfathers and the such. It'd be no better than just giving them random results. There is no way we could have derived any utility from the cops whatsoever.

It was certainly possible to deduce what had happened, with a priest, tracker, and watcher, but part of the point was to devalue results and increase the mafia's ability to manipulate the game. That's why investigators were told "Your target X" instead of "Y did X".
"Age is not important" - Airmax 2014
"Australia... is that a place?" - Airmax 2014
Lucky_Luciano
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10/8/2014 8:28:30 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 10/8/2014 8:24:21 PM, bossyburrito wrote:
So, after NP0, the animals you chose had no effect on Town's roles, correct?

Correct. They only were still in the game so that you would level up.
"Age is not important" - Airmax 2014
"Australia... is that a place?" - Airmax 2014
TheGreatAndPowerful
Posts: 3,012
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10/8/2014 8:37:01 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 10/8/2014 8:28:08 PM, Lucky_Luciano wrote:
At 10/8/2014 8:20:06 PM, TheGreatAndPowerful wrote:
My only criticism is the cop flavors. They're really just pointless at that point. Might as well make them random rather than anything else.

The point of a flavored cop is, basically, to introduce some measurable delay in their effectiveness, resulting in a potential mislynch. With paranond and naive, there is a delay and then they discover they're basically vanilla. With insane, there is a delay and then they discover they're basically normal

With this, it would take too long to ascertain the precise nature of the flavoring, especially considering redirectors, framers, lawyers, godfathers and the such. It'd be no better than just giving them random results. There is no way we could have derived any utility from the cops whatsoever.

It was certainly possible to deduce what had happened, with a priest, tracker, and watcher, but part of the point was to devalue results and increase the mafia's ability to manipulate the game. That's why investigators were told "Your target X" instead of "Y did X".

I disagree. First, it's unfair to hedge the utility of a role on half the other roles being dedicated to working with it. Second, the idea of nonconsecutive night flavoring is not something anyone would think of. It'd take the entire game to "deduce" that and, by then, it doesn't matter.
Maikuru
Posts: 9,112
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10/8/2014 8:40:37 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
Wo0t w0ot!

First of all, great set-up, Lucky! In terms of anxiousness for the NP, this has been my favorite game. Adding the zones, animal kills, and specializations gave the game a real RPG feel to it, and I was always excited to head into the night and discuss actions during the day. Great game and great modding!

Second, kudos to the town for being so level-headed and thoughtful. The fact that I wasn't mislynched really amazes me lol. I'm assuming the mafia didn't kill me because I was a viable mislynch?

Mafia were within striking distance of a win a few times and I could feel it. Had they been a little more active, they probably would have taken it.

I do want to mention that I was right about the fact that scum were probably in the replacements lol.
"You assume I wouldn't want to burn this whole place to the ground."
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Maikuru
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10/8/2014 8:41:44 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 10/8/2014 8:26:07 PM, Daltonian wrote:
Oh, well, lol.

At least I was right about Budda.

Sorry for being paranoid about you, Maikuru + TUF. lulz :')

It's okay, I would have lynched me lol
"You assume I wouldn't want to burn this whole place to the ground."
- lamerde

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Lucky_Luciano
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10/8/2014 9:02:18 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 10/8/2014 8:38:36 PM, TheGreatAndPowerful wrote:
Lucky. Can you outline a scenario were town deduces one of the cops flavoring?

The town rightly deduced that one of the cops was likely flavored, especially because they were from the same zone with different animals. Given time and careful analysis of results, I think it was perfectly reasonable for people to realize that the cops were mirrors. Whether or not it was figured out was irrelevant though. I wanted the power of an actual cop and the chaos of a paranoid cop without the ability for 1 death to shake up either of them. The town was free to go off of results or to ignore them or to try and figure them out or whatever. I wanted the town to have options.
"Age is not important" - Airmax 2014
"Australia... is that a place?" - Airmax 2014
bossyburrito
Posts: 14,075
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10/8/2014 9:51:27 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
Did that go as you had hoped it would go, Lucky?
#UnbanTheMadman

"Some will sell their dreams for small desires
Or lose the race to rats
Get caught in ticking traps
And start to dream of somewhere
To relax their restless flight
Somewhere out of a memory of lighted streets on quiet nights..."

~ Rush
Maikuru
Posts: 9,112
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10/8/2014 9:53:12 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 10/8/2014 9:43:59 PM, Bullish wrote:
I won twice!

Budda lost twice =(
"You assume I wouldn't want to burn this whole place to the ground."
- lamerde

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ford_prefect
Posts: 4,138
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10/8/2014 10:02:54 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
Trekie was essentially carrying us on our back, and then she had to replace out, and I had some travel pop up on my schedule, which made sure I was inactive a lot. So yeah, town definitely deserved the win but I think early on with trekie we had a good shot at winning, too.

Maikuru kicked butt. We kept him alive initially as a mislynch, but also because we thought we could score a free kill or two by redirecting him. Unfortunately, he was too good to let himself be mislynched, and by the time we wanted to dragon him, it was too late because he already had us essentially pinned down.

Good game to all but especially to maikuru and trekie. Really inspiring play, and I enjoyed learning from you two.

Random mafia PM trivia: trekie and I knew who was scum and who wasn't, and we still couldn't figure out what was going on with the cop flavoring. Khaos' play in particular was so strange, combined with his wonky results, that we thought he was a mafia traitor up until he died, lol.
ford_prefect
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10/8/2014 10:08:21 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 10/8/2014 10:05:55 PM, Bullish wrote:
See Khaos. Even scum thought you were scum.

Lol, to be fair, it was mostly because of the fact that he got a guilty on the other town cop. We thought he was trying to take out the town cop with him as a suicide bomber of sorts
Maikuru
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10/8/2014 10:17:38 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 10/8/2014 9:02:18 PM, Lucky_Luciano wrote:

Could we see the mafia pm?
"You assume I wouldn't want to burn this whole place to the ground."
- lamerde

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Maikuru
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10/8/2014 10:18:01 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 10/8/2014 10:02:54 PM, ford_prefect wrote:
Trekie was essentially carrying us on our back, and then she had to replace out, and I had some travel pop up on my schedule, which made sure I was inactive a lot. So yeah, town definitely deserved the win but I think early on with trekie we had a good shot at winning, too.

Maikuru kicked butt. We kept him alive initially as a mislynch, but also because we thought we could score a free kill or two by redirecting him. Unfortunately, he was too good to let himself be mislynched, and by the time we wanted to dragon him, it was too late because he already had us essentially pinned down.

Good game to all but especially to maikuru and trekie. Really inspiring play, and I enjoyed learning from you two.

Random mafia PM trivia: trekie and I knew who was scum and who wasn't, and we still couldn't figure out what was going on with the cop flavoring. Khaos' play in particular was so strange, combined with his wonky results, that we thought he was a mafia traitor up until he died, lol.

Aww, thank you =)
"You assume I wouldn't want to burn this whole place to the ground."
- lamerde

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Lucky_Luciano
Posts: 4,350
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10/8/2014 10:52:26 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 10/8/2014 10:17:38 PM, Maikuru wrote:
At 10/8/2014 9:02:18 PM, Lucky_Luciano wrote:

Could we see the mafia pm?

Mafia PM 1: http://i.imgur.com...
Mafia PM 2: http://i.imgur.com...
Mafia PM 3: http://i.imgur.com...
"Age is not important" - Airmax 2014
"Australia... is that a place?" - Airmax 2014
Maikuru
Posts: 9,112
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10/8/2014 11:10:34 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 10/8/2014 10:52:26 PM, Lucky_Luciano wrote:
At 10/8/2014 10:17:38 PM, Maikuru wrote:
At 10/8/2014 9:02:18 PM, Lucky_Luciano wrote:

Could we see the mafia pm?

Mafia PM 1: http://i.imgur.com...
Mafia PM 2: http://i.imgur.com...
Mafia PM 3: http://i.imgur.com...

I, too, hate bodyguards. I was a BG for my first two forum games and I've hated them ever since. Like you said, if I do a good job, my reward is death lol
"You assume I wouldn't want to burn this whole place to the ground."
- lamerde

https://i.imgflip.com...
Lucky_Luciano
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10/8/2014 11:15:58 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 10/8/2014 11:10:34 PM, Maikuru wrote:
At 10/8/2014 10:52:26 PM, Lucky_Luciano wrote:
At 10/8/2014 10:17:38 PM, Maikuru wrote:
At 10/8/2014 9:02:18 PM, Lucky_Luciano wrote:

Could we see the mafia pm?

Mafia PM 1: http://i.imgur.com...
Mafia PM 2: http://i.imgur.com...
Mafia PM 3: http://i.imgur.com...

I, too, hate bodyguards. I was a BG for my first two forum games and I've hated them ever since. Like you said, if I do a good job, my reward is death lol

Yep, that's problematic for me. There's a dissonance between expected and actual output when your input is successful. That's bad for player experience imo. I'm also wary on bombs. I'm not sure if I specifically don't like them, but I don't see any benefit to putting them in a game. I need to think on that one.
"Age is not important" - Airmax 2014
"Australia... is that a place?" - Airmax 2014
Maikuru
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10/8/2014 11:34:53 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 10/8/2014 11:26:49 PM, TUF wrote:
Interesting.

Calm down there.
"You assume I wouldn't want to burn this whole place to the ground."
- lamerde

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Maikuru
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10/8/2014 11:36:38 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
I think Bossy, Tuf, Dalt, and Drafter deserve mad props. All of town really worked well together. Tuf and Dalt were super thoughtful with their actions. Being level-headed can be hard as town but I don't think either one pushed a wagon on a townie hard at any point. I can't say the same about myself lol. Bossy and drafter were just good idea machines and set up the DP's in such a way that when we weren't catching scum, we were at least being productive. Really solid town team play.
"You assume I wouldn't want to burn this whole place to the ground."
- lamerde

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Lucky_Luciano
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10/8/2014 11:43:05 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
I agree. The town worked as a really cohesive unit for the most part. I wonder though if they still would have done the same if the mafia was active.
"Age is not important" - Airmax 2014
"Australia... is that a place?" - Airmax 2014