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Hitchhikers Endgame

ford_prefect
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10/27/2014 11:59:12 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
A tremendous feeling of peace came over him. He knew that at last, for once and forever, it was now all, finally, over.

Town wins!

Town:

Daltonian: Arthur Dent, the Sandwich Maker. Each night, you have the option of making a sandwich.

Lannan: Ford Prefect, JOAT. You have a 1x Rolecop, 1x Doctor, and 1x Tracker.

Khaos/Budda: Zaphod Beeblebrox, Popular. It takes one extra vote to lynch you.

Endark: Marvin, Hated PGO. Characters who visit you in the night may die, and it takes one less vote to lynch you. Hidden Mod note: Only computer/robot characters die when visiting you

9Space: Hotblack Desiato, Commuter. You are not affected by any night actions until NP3. During NP3, you lose your Commuter ability.

Wylted: Colin, Elite Bodyguard. Each night you may target a player. Any lethal actions targeted at that player will be redirected to you. There is a chance that these actions will not kill you. Hidden Mod note: If you target anyone other than Ford Prefect, your role is simply bodyguard.

Bullish: Deep Thought, Innocent Cop Child. Each night, you target a player. You do not learn the affiliation of these players until NP3. You will be mod-confirmed on DP4.

Endark2 replacing TUF: Zarquon, Medium. Each night, you will learn something new about the game. Hidden Mod note: These are the messages you will receive:
NP1 "Old Thrashbarg considers himself a spiritual authority... even if nobody else does"
NP2 "Deep Thought will soon finish his calculations... unless something went wrong"
NP3 "Computers and other robots don't exactly get along well with Marvin"
NP4 "The TP is an Arsonist"
NP5 "Tricia McMillan, or Trillian, is not in the game"
NP6 "This game has lasted longer than I thought it would"


ESocial/Rev: Old Thrashbarg, Priest. Each night, the roles of players who visit you will be revealed to you. Hidden Mod note: Naive

2nd place: Mafia

Adam_Godzilla: Agrajag, 1x Deathproof. The first time a lynch or night action would kill you, you survive.

Danielle: Benjy mouse and Frankie mouse, Godfather/Universal Watcher. You appear innocent to investigative roles. If you are responsible for Arthur Dent's death, whether by lynch or by night kill, you gain the ability of Universal Watcher. You will see who everybody visits.

Wylted2 replacing TN05: Prostetnic Vogon Jeltz, Strongman. If you perform the night kill, you roleblock your target and bypass any protective abilities.

Third Place: Third Party

XLAV: Hactar, Arsonist/Serial Killer. Each night you prime a player. When you prime, you have the option to detonate. Detonation kills all previously primed players. When you have detonated, you gain a 1x kill. You must be the last surviving player in order to win.

Night Actions:

NP1:
Dalton gives sandwich to Danielle
Lannan tracks Khaos/Budda
Wylted bodyguards Khaos/Budda
Bullish cops TUF
TN05 kills Lannan
XLAV primes TUF

NP2:
Dalt gives sandwich to ESocial/Rev
Wylted bodyguards Danielle
Bullish cops Bullish
TN05 kills Wylted
XLAV primes Khaos/Budda

NP3:
Dalt gives sandwich to Khaos/Budda
Bullish cops Danielle, receives all prior results
Wylted2 kills XLAV
XLAV primes Bullish

NP4:
Dalt gives sandwich to ESocial/Rev
Bullish cops Wylted2
Adam kills Khaos/Budda

NP5:
Dalt gives sandwich to Adam
Bullish cops ESocial/Rev
Adam kills Bullish

NP6:
Dalt gives sandwich to Endark2
Danielle kills ESocial/Rev


I will also be posting my analysis of the game and awards, but feel free to hop in and discuss at your convenience! Thank you to everyone for participating and helping me enjoy my first modding experience. If you have questions about the game setup, balancing issues, criticism or praise of any kind, I would love to hear all of it.
ford_prefect
Posts: 4,139
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10/28/2014 12:52:52 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
Notable Moments:

Town lynching Endark on DP1 was a mislynch, but it was tactically very sound. Even though town didn't know it yet, all but one of Endark's potential victims were townies. Endark did not pose a threat to the Mafia, since none of their characters were computers or robots.

The NP1 night kill was not a bad choice. Lannan did claim Ford Prefect, and Mafia correctly deduced that he had a power role. However, Lannan was very inactive and did not appear to be in a position to capitalize on the potential of his role. So not an inspired choice, either.

Town lynched correctly on DP2. Adam made the mistake of claiming his actual character, and caught some thematic flak for it. However, surviving the lynch gave him town cred in the eyes of some players, though not all. Khaos in particular wanted to keep lynching Adam later on, but couldn't get enough support for it. Overall, I would say Adam's claim was a slight mistake, but he recovered very well from it and was being town read by several players after it.

NP2 Mafia killed Wylted, taking out town's only remaining protective role. Dalt gave a sandwich to ESocial/Rev, which I thought would certainly lead to their mislynch the following day.

However, it was Khaos who almost got mislynched, being saved only by the fact that A) he was secretly popular, and B) Wylted2 possibly messed up a vote he intended to place on Khaos. When town realized what had happened, they scrambled to lynch Adam, but the DP ran out before they could do so.

NP3 the Mafia killed XLAV, and prematurely ended his game. I will say this, I feel bad for XLAV because I gave him a VERY raw deal. He basically had to play his role perfectly in order to win, and his choices of prime targets were actually inspired. He almost stayed alive long enough to pull it off, which would have been extremely impressive. However, it was not meant to be, and he died without getting to set off his fireworks. Sorry XLAV!

Bullish also copped Danielle as innocent, which would give her very good town cred.

On DP 4, mafia mislynched 9space with the help of two townies. This DP was very short, and nothing notable happened except for Khaos cementing his MVP award. In this DP alone, Khaos correctly predicted the following things: Adam was mafia and 1x deathproof. Danielle was godfather. Wylted was not a cop. In addition to calling out the entire scum team, he was also the first to suggest that the medium was telling people their hidden flavors, which he was mostly correct about (the exception being Bullish, who had no flavor). He also wrote a very accurate case for why he didn't buy Danielle as watcher, which people just kind of... ignored, I guess. Danielle did a good job of shaking it off, so none of it really stuck to her.

Mafia killed Khaos on NP4, largely to get rid of the confirmed popular but also because he had essentially solved the game at that point. Bullish finally got his first guilty, which led to Wylted2 being lynched on DP5.

So to recap, on NP4, Mafia had three players remaining, town had five. Danielle had been investigated as innocent. I understand the reasoning behind killing Khaos, but I think it would have been interesting to see what would have happened if they had killed Bullish that night instead. Town would have been at LYLO, with no cop result. As things turned out, wylted2 put in a good effort but his cop gambit couldn't pull through and he was lynched. Dalton put a vote on Endark, and Wylted immediately urged Danielle and Adam to come online and hammer for the win, but they didn't show up in time. However, there was a 30 minute window where if the scum team had been online, they could have won the game.

NP5 Bullish was the obvious kill. DP6, Danielle tried to bus Adam, and did a very good job of it. She had ESocial and particularly Dalton on the fence about whether she was the last scum or if it was Endark. Endark received his controversial result of "Trillian is not in the game" and Danielle did an excellent job fighting back.

Danielle was upset at me for giving Endark that result, and I had a conversation with Khaos, who agreed that while it wasn't bastard modding, the game setup was imbalanced against mafia. I do not think the game was perfectly balanced. I also don't think it was heavily imbalanced. I think the fact that the game came down to 3 people on DP7, and that mafia had a 30 minute window to win on DP5, shows that both teams had a reasonable chance to win.

Danielle doesn't like themed games, because it can be hard for scum to fake claim credibly. When I designed this game, I included several very minor characters as town, so that if mafia or TP wanted to claim a minor character, they wouldn't stand out. I also left out Trillian, Fenchurch, and Random as three possible main character fake claims. Of these, Trillian is the biggest character, and therefore I thought I would include a small chance of the medium learning that she was not in the game. If nobody had claimed Trillian, that result would have been useless. If either mafia or TP had killed the medium before NP5, the result would never have been seen. So I don't think it was too unfair, but if you disagree, so be it.

Side note: Endark2 complained a lot to me about how many useless results he got. At the same time, Danielle and Khaos were telling me that his role was too OP because he was "confirming" townies left and right. I tend to fall somewhere in between these two extremes, and they say that if both sides are unhappy, then it's a good compromise, but hey who knows? :)

Anyway, the last DP was somewhat less dramatic than I thought it would be, Dalton made the quick but correct choice off of his gut feeling, and got the win for the town.
ford_prefect
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10/28/2014 1:08:11 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
Mod Awards:

Overall MVP: Khaos_Mage

If you don't agree with this, go back and re-read DP4. He nailed pretty much every hidden mechanic in this game, and called out the entire scum team. He also drew the night kill away from Bullish, which allowed him to get the guilty on Wylted2 that left Danielle all alone.

Mafia MVP: Danielle

She did a great job of being mostly townread, and she was leading the mafia in the PM pretty well. Her suggestions for night kills were mostly good, and she made no real mistakes. She defended herself valiantly against both Khaos and Endark2, but ultimately it just wasn't enough. If she and Adam had been online during those 30 minutes of DP5, she and khaos would be switched :P

Lynch of the Game: Dalton hammering correctly at LYLO

Night Action of the Game: I'm giving this one to all of XLAV's actions. None of the players he primed died before he did. Considering this, and the fact that mafia probably should have killed Bullish on the night they killed him, XLAV might have actually won despite facing an extremely tough wincon.

WTF Moment of the Game:

Lannan asked to be replaced during NP1. The mafia had already submitted their night action, which was to kill him with TN05's Strongman. Since wylted didn't target Lannan, his fate was already sealed, so I told him as much. I said, "not that it matters, because you're dead, but do you want to submit a night action?" He opted to track Khaos, instead of self doctoring. He had no way of knowing that wouldn't keep him alive, due to TN05 bypassing protective abilities, but still...

Missed Opportunity of the Game:

Tied between the mafia not being online to hammer Endark on DP5, and killing XLAV instead of Bullish.

That's all I got, now let me hear from you guys! What did you love, hate, not care about, who should I have given MVP award to, etc.

Again, thanks to all for playing, especially those who replaced in again to help combat inactivity. I hope everyone enjoyed playing as much as I enjoyed modding. Good game everybody!
Maikuru
Posts: 9,112
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10/28/2014 1:37:18 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
Between a popular, an innocent child, a cop, and all the medium results, there really was a hell of a lot of town confirming going on. Hard to win for mafia, and almost impossible for TP.
"You assume I wouldn't want to burn this whole place to the ground."
- lamerde

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Khaos_Mage
Posts: 23,214
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10/28/2014 1:41:09 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 10/28/2014 1:37:18 AM, Maikuru wrote:
Between a popular, an innocent child, a cop, and all the medium results, there really was a hell of a lot of town confirming going on. Hard to win for mafia, and almost impossible for TP.

That's what I told him.
Had XLAV been an true SK, that would have balanced it out, although, had XLAV been trying to prime mafia, as he needed, he still had a shot.
My work here is, finally, done.
ford_prefect
Posts: 4,139
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10/28/2014 4:38:44 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 10/28/2014 1:37:18 AM, Maikuru wrote:
Between a popular, an innocent child, a cop, and all the medium results, there really was a hell of a lot of town confirming going on. Hard to win for mafia, and almost impossible for TP.

The medium did not confirm a single player as town, and mafia had a godfather to counter the cop. Also, the PGO couldn't kill any mafia members but could have killed the cop and/or the towns only protective role. Finally, statistically speaking, if the TP had detonated, most of the time mafia would benefit more than town due to their lower numbers and the fact that they had a death proof.

Ultimately I really think the reason town won is because they lynched Marvin DP1. If Marvin takes out either deep thought or Colin early on, I think people would have been complaining about how unbalanced the game was against town.

I definitely agree that TP had a very difficult win condition.
trekie
Posts: 772
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10/28/2014 8:37:35 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
I've been following along, and I thought this was an enjoyable game (to read at least. :) ) Congrats to town, and good game by Khaos and Dani.

At 10/28/2014 12:52:52 AM, ford_prefect wrote:
Side note: Endark2 complained a lot to me about how many useless results he got. At the same time, Danielle and Khaos were telling me that his role was too OP because he was "confirming" townies left and right. I tend to fall somewhere in between these two extremes, and they say that if both sides are unhappy, then it's a good compromise, but hey who knows? :)
As an outside observer and somebody who frequently puts a Medium into their games I would say the problem with the role was that it could too easily role confirm itself in this particular setup. Thus the results themselves wouldn't really be questioned which snowballs into multiply confirmations. A Medium's early game results should be something that the Mafia could conceivably make up or know by simply being scum. I do think that the NP5(Trillian) result would have been fair if it weren't for the nature of the first 3 results though.

That all being said, I thought giving these seemingly vague statements as thematic hints to roles/flavours in the game was a really fun way to go, but I like Hitchhiker's so that could also be a factor. :)
Maikuru
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10/28/2014 10:25:05 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 10/28/2014 4:38:44 AM, ford_prefect wrote:
At 10/28/2014 1:37:18 AM, Maikuru wrote:
Between a popular, an innocent child, a cop, and all the medium results, there really was a hell of a lot of town confirming going on. Hard to win for mafia, and almost impossible for TP.

The medium did not confirm a single player as town

His results mentioned the name of 3 townies. Once their names are mentioned, they are confirmed. That is why mediums almost never mention actual character names in their results until late game, and usually speak instead to game mechanics (e.g. how many scum were at the beginning of the game, if flavors exist, etc.). I would have been okay with mentioning that the main character was not in the game, had the other results not already mentioned names.

and mafia had a godfather to counter the cop.

It is a common misconception that godfathers innately counter cops. The cop only benefits the mafia when they actually target the GF, which they obviously have a very small chance of doing. Every other cop result either innocents a townie or guilties a scum buddy. GF's need to work in conjunction with a framer (they often have both abilities) to balance those odds in a game this size.

Also, the PGO couldn't kill any mafia members but could have killed the cop and/or the towns only protective role. Finally, statistically speaking, if the TP had detonated, most of the time mafia would benefit more than town due to their lower numbers and the fact that they had a death proof.

These don't have much to do with confirming townies. Confirming townies is the number one threat to scum. Once they are confirmed, you force the mafia to kill them. You are essentially robbing scum of their NK. One confirmed townie is almost always plenty, and that was present in the innocent child. Add a popular, and a cop, and a medium, and I would probably have been frustrated as scum.
"You assume I wouldn't want to burn this whole place to the ground."
- lamerde

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Danielle
Posts: 21,330
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10/28/2014 12:33:28 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
I really hate when the losing team complains about a lack of game balance, but this game was almost impossible for the mafia to win. I honestly feel like we won this game just because we made it to the end. This game also confirms that after Les Mis (since I had already signed up) I will no longer be playing in any themed mafia games unless they are very broad such as Why We Live.

First of all, the mod included every single main character except for Trillian. We had no idea that Trillian wasn't in the game, so we couldn't claim her or any other main character. By complete luck (and attempted strategy) we were able to claim her, the only semi-unquestionable character and then the mod fvcking confirmed that she wasn't in the game which was apparently planned all along. If he planned on outing that she wasn't in the game, he could have at least told us she wasn't in the game from the beginning so we could have fake claimed her for credibility early on! The mod gave us ZERO clues, so on character claims alone we stood no chance.

If you're scum on Day Phase 1, you're fvcked. Adam outed his real character (I wasn't online to advise him otherwise) because at that point we had to guess and obviously wouldn't claim a main character. Adam also revealed his role which did in fact go along with his character, except it was only 1x Deathproof. The mod didn't even give us 2x Deathproof despite the fact that his character kept coming back to life.

Anyone who claimed Arthur, Ford or Zaphod would be immediately confirmed and they were. The town would never lynch them. We knew who Arthur was all game, but I couldn't gain my Universal Watcher power through killing him (not that it helps once all the roles are outed) because the mafia had to strategically kill other people -- meaning the main characters, especially Daltonian, are just confirmed townies to live throughout the entire game. This is another reason themed games are stupid. These players won't be investigated or killed.

TUF/Endark's role was way overpowered. It served as a second cop and confirmed multiple players. Furthermore the mod flat-out confirmed Bullish, as if a cop claim needs any more validation!

Townie Players:

Bullish - Cop, Main Character, Confirmed by Mod
Daltonian - Main Character (will never be lynched)
Lannan - Main Character (will never be lynched) JOAT
Khaos- Main Character (will never be lynched) AND popular which confirms role!!!
TUF/Endark2 - Medium who acts as second Cop and can confirm role and other townies!!!
Esocial - Confirmed through Medium

These players were 100% confirmed town.

These players were about 90% confirmed town:

Endark1- Semi-confirmed through Medium
Wylted - Colin as Bodyguard (makes sense plus safe character)

Literally XLAV and 9spaceking (Commuter) were the ONLY two questionable townie claims. The mafia had no chance of winning at all.

Therefore I consider this a victory on our behalf. It's a miracle that we made it this long. Also, Endark really was lying about my "scum meta." This was truly the first time I was mafia (with the exception of Dr. Who where I died by the second day) in like 4 years, so I have no meta. And in regard to the Hated/Popular mistake on Day Phase 1, it really was an honest mistake! I still don't really know what you guys are talking about lol. I was smoking and watching football (usually if I'm on DDO it means I'm home bored... so smoking and watching football) and I admit I wasn't really paying attention. I still don't know what my mistake was. I have to say that I think I did a really good job given the impossible odds against us and the fact that it's my first time being mafia in SO LONG. Good game everyone. Especially you, Khaos.
President of DDO
ford_prefect
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10/28/2014 1:32:08 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
Ok, I guess the consensus is that this game was horribly imbalanced and impossible to win for the mafia. I just cannot agree with that notion, considering the fact that Mafia had a chance to hammer endark and win on dp5, and the game ultimately came down to three player LYLO. And that is even allowing that Mafia played well, but made a few mistakes.

If I could change one thing, I would make one of the mediums results refer to a scum character instead of a town character. That way, people would realize that just because the medium receives a characters name, doesn't make that character town.

Also, nobody is considering the effect that XLAV killing two or three townies midgame would have had. Many times, that's an insta win for the scum team. Maybe it's not directly in their control, but that is a balancing factor, just like being immune to PGO.

Danielle, I'm sorry you didn't enjoy the game and that's ok to say, but I can't let you get away with saying you had no chance of winning. That is simply untrue
ford_prefect
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10/28/2014 1:35:24 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 10/28/2014 8:37:35 AM, trekie wrote:
I've been following along, and I thought this was an enjoyable game (to read at least. :) ) Congrats to town, and good game by Khaos and Dani.

At 10/28/2014 12:52:52 AM, ford_prefect wrote:
Side note: Endark2 complained a lot to me about how many useless results he got. At the same time, Danielle and Khaos were telling me that his role was too OP because he was "confirming" townies left and right. I tend to fall somewhere in between these two extremes, and they say that if both sides are unhappy, then it's a good compromise, but hey who knows? :)
As an outside observer and somebody who frequently puts a Medium into their games I would say the problem with the role was that it could too easily role confirm itself in this particular setup. Thus the results themselves wouldn't really be questioned which snowballs into multiply confirmations. A Medium's early game results should be something that the Mafia could conceivably make up or know by simply being scum. I do think that the NP5(Trillian) result would have been fair if it weren't for the nature of the first 3 results though.

That all being said, I thought giving these seemingly vague statements as thematic hints to roles/flavours in the game was a really fun way to go, but I like Hitchhiker's so that could also be a factor. :)

Thanks for the input trekie! I definitely tried to borrow a few ideas from your games, which I consider to be some of the best I've played in. I know I'm nowhere near being a great mod/game designer yet, but I learned a lot from this experience and hope to get better in the future.
Khaos_Mage
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10/28/2014 1:53:37 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 10/28/2014 1:32:08 PM, ford_prefect wrote:

If I could change one thing, I would make one of the mediums results refer to a scum character instead of a town character. That way, people would realize that just because the medium receives a characters name, doesn't make that character town.
But, the problem with that is that the character is known to be town, because they are claimed by others.
Hmmmm, nobody claimed Frankie Mouse, but we know he is in the game....

Also, nobody is considering the effect that XLAV killing two or three townies midgame would have had. Many times, that's an insta win for the scum team. Maybe it's not directly in their control, but that is a balancing factor, just like being immune to PGO.

As I said before, the game was balanced as long as certain things occurred. Forcing mafia to act in this manner for the game to be balanced is, in fact, not balanced, because is it only balanced by those specific actions.
Yes, the game would have gone much differently had TUF been NK'd NP1. But, the fact that TUF's role is what destroyed the mafia, is the issue.
It named three players, all of whom claimed (thus implies they are town, or a really risky gambit).
As I said, a framer instead of Strongman.
A regular SK.
Or just not having a cop at all,
Any one of these changes would have made the game balanced.

TP actually wasn't unbalanced, since he is basically a survivor, as long as he doesn't give mafia majority when he blasts, he's fine.
My work here is, finally, done.
Khaos_Mage
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10/28/2014 1:59:05 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 10/28/2014 12:33:28 PM, Danielle wrote:
Especially you, Khaos.

I'd like to take more credit, but my excellence was mostly via roles.
Adam refusing to prove his claim DP3 made him suspicous, your not confirming 9space/Esocial with your watcher was suspicious, and Wylted was just suspect due to his fake claim. Adam and TN05 both gave bad fake claims, thematically.

Esocial/Rev, as terrible as their play was, were town read due to Esocial's response to TUF early in DP2, which led me to think TUF was really a passive cop (which I actually said DP2).

Also, the magic reasoning I had for linking you and Adam together was in the sign-up thread to Bullish's game.

Not much behavior analysis, unfortunately, is was more my tactical know-how that led me so well.
My work here is, finally, done.
Danielle
Posts: 21,330
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10/28/2014 2:33:48 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 10/28/2014 1:32:08 PM, ford_prefect wrote:
Ok, I guess the consensus is that this game was horribly imbalanced and impossible to win for the mafia. I just cannot agree with that notion, considering the fact that Mafia had a chance to hammer endark and win on dp5, and the game ultimately came down to three player LYLO. And that is even allowing that Mafia played well, but made a few mistakes.

Just because we could have won doesn't mean the game wasn't very imbalanced.

If I could change one thing, I would make one of the mediums results refer to a scum character instead of a town character. That way, people would realize that just because the medium receives a characters name, doesn't make that character town.

What do you have to say about the fact that pretty much every single townie role was confirmed except for 9space? I explained how in my last post. Three of the players were auto-confirmed via main character. You literally mod confirmed Bullish for no reason. You confirmed the medium and all of the other players through that role as well. Even if Marvin and Old Thrashbag weren't confirmed townie characters, it still confirms that the players were telling the truth about their character on DP1 thus town. It still confirms the medium's role. And the medium's info still acted as a cop.

Also, nobody is considering the effect that XLAV killing two or three townies midgame would have had. Many times, that's an insta win for the scum team.

Wouldn't it have been an insta win for XLAV instead? I don't remember his role.

Danielle, I'm sorry you didn't enjoy the game and that's ok to say, but I can't let you get away with saying you had no chance of winning. That is simply untrue

You've ignored all of my points. I enjoyed the game - I just see that the odds were 95% against us.
President of DDO
Danielle
Posts: 21,330
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10/28/2014 2:35:28 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 10/28/2014 1:59:05 PM, Khaos_Mage wrote:
your not confirming 9space/Esocial with your watcher was suspicious

That was another thing that went right over my head. I honestly don't pay attention when I play sometimes. It was unintentional. I could have said I visited her since she was already proven naive at that point.

Also, the magic reasoning I had for linking you and Adam together was in the sign-up thread to Bullish's game.

Yeah I dunno why he did that.
President of DDO
Daltonian
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10/28/2014 2:38:19 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 10/28/2014 1:59:05 PM, Khaos_Mage wrote:
Also, the magic reasoning I had for linking you and Adam together was in the sign-up thread to Bullish's game.
LOL, I actually saw this when I was stalking all the posts Adam had made. Preeeee fishy..
F _ C K
All I need is "u", baby
Khaos_Mage
Posts: 23,214
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10/28/2014 2:50:45 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 10/28/2014 2:35:28 PM, Danielle wrote:

Also, the magic reasoning I had for linking you and Adam together was in the sign-up thread to Bullish's game.

Yeah I dunno why he did that.

I'm guessing because you helped and guided him in the PM.
My work here is, finally, done.
Khaos_Mage
Posts: 23,214
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10/28/2014 3:02:16 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
Ford, look at it this way:
DP3, I narrowed down scum to 4 of 5 players, with the fifth being an either/or with the fourth, and I was leaning on Adam more anyway.

I ignored the fact that Danielle claimed Trillian and was copped innocent.
That should give you an idea of how the game was imbalanced.

Keeping in mind this was before Bullish ever claimed anything or was confirmed, and I was defending him as town.

For a first time mod, this wasn't a bad try, and one of three changing of roles would have balanced it out, to be honest. It's not as bad as TN05's game where we lynched correctly 4 of 5 DPs and lost.

Look at that game:
If town had taken different actions, we would have won. It doesn't make it balanced because of what could have been.
What mattered was the liklihood, and the swing.

As I said in our PM, the game was balanced, for the most part. However, the swing was in town's favor if mafia didn't kill one of two players early on, which they didn't, because they were busy killing other "confirmed" town reads. It's hard to get a mislynch on a widely-believed town read.
Had TUF been killed NP1, this game would have been balanced. But, the swing went in town's favor, and it was too much.
My work here is, finally, done.
Danielle
Posts: 21,330
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10/28/2014 3:09:47 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 10/28/2014 3:02:16 PM, Khaos_Mage wrote:
As I said in our PM, the game was balanced, for the most part.

What townies do you think could have been mislynched aside from 9space and Endark1?
President of DDO
Khaos_Mage
Posts: 23,214
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10/28/2014 3:42:22 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 10/28/2014 3:09:47 PM, Danielle wrote:
At 10/28/2014 3:02:16 PM, Khaos_Mage wrote:
As I said in our PM, the game was balanced, for the most part.

What townies do you think could have been mislynched aside from 9space and Endark1?

ER1, Wylted1, Esocial, TUF, 9space, and Bullish, even me.
Keeping in mind there was next to zero investigation.
My work here is, finally, done.
Danielle
Posts: 21,330
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10/28/2014 4:07:19 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 10/28/2014 3:42:22 PM, Khaos_Mage wrote:
At 10/28/2014 3:09:47 PM, Danielle wrote:
At 10/28/2014 3:02:16 PM, Khaos_Mage wrote:
As I said in our PM, the game was balanced, for the most part.

What townies do you think could have been mislynched aside from 9space and Endark1?


I said besides 9space and Endark1. Those were the 2 potential mislynches.

Wylted1 - Colin who claimed Bodyguard/Doctor. Not only is Colin a main-ish character, but it was the only protective role claimed and it made perfect sense. Unlikely mislynch.

Esocial - The medium confirmed this character/role and even that it was naive.

TUF - The medium who was CONFIRMED by knowing which characters in the game before they were revealed, game mechanics and acted as a cop. This would have only worked if he were lynched very early on before getting all the clues.

Bullish - Are you serious? He claimed Deep Thought, the Cop, and was MOD CONFIRMED.

Khaos - You were 1 of 4 main characters and a popular townie. Popular townies can prove their role and you can/did claim a main character right away without a CC.
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Danielle
Posts: 21,330
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10/28/2014 4:11:55 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
It's whatever. I'm honestly not a sore loser. I don't care that much about mafia. I'm planning a wedding... I work... I'm also a realtor in the greater NYC area... I have plenty of more important things to worry about, trust me. If this were a balanced game I would say so. It really wasn't. I had fun playing but the mafia really had no potential fake claims and the townie players/roles had way too much confirmation through theme and mechanics. I enjoyed it though. If 1 more thing had gone our way then we could have pulled off something awesome. Ah well.
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ford_prefect
Posts: 4,139
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10/28/2014 4:37:36 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 10/28/2014 2:33:48 PM, Danielle wrote:
At 10/28/2014 1:32:08 PM, ford_prefect wrote:
Ok, I guess the consensus is that this game was horribly imbalanced and impossible to win for the mafia. I just cannot agree with that notion, considering the fact that Mafia had a chance to hammer endark and win on dp5, and the game ultimately came down to three player LYLO. And that is even allowing that Mafia played well, but made a few mistakes.

Just because we could have won doesn't mean the game wasn't very imbalanced.

True, this is not proof in and of itself. But it is one of my supporting arguments.

If I could change one thing, I would make one of the mediums results refer to a scum character instead of a town character. That way, people would realize that just because the medium receives a characters name, doesn't make that character town.

What do you have to say about the fact that pretty much every single townie role was confirmed except for 9space? I explained how in my last post. Three of the players were auto-confirmed via main character. You literally mod confirmed Bullish for no reason. You confirmed the medium and all of the other players through that role as well. Even if Marvin and Old Thrashbag weren't confirmed townie characters, it still confirms that the players were telling the truth about their character on DP1 thus town. It still confirms the medium's role. And the medium's info still acted as a cop.

No. Claimed main characters should not be considered confirmed town. Trillian was not in this game, for example. Nowhere did I say zaphod was in the game, nor Arthur (except in the mafia pm). If other players assume that those players are telling the truth about their characters and therefore are town, that is not my fault.

I also didn't confirm the medium. How did I do that? Furthermore, as khaos points out, you could have scored a mislynch on the medium by saying he was a scum character cop or something. And you keep saying the medium was a second cop, but show me where in this game I said that the medium will only receive results on town players? I didn't. So that's a bad assumption too.

And, following your logic, people telling the truth about their characters on dp1 are town, so Adam was town. Except he wasn't.

Also, nobody is considering the effect that XLAV killing two or three townies midgame would have had. Many times, that's an insta win for the scum team.

Wouldn't it have been an insta win for XLAV instead? I don't remember his role.


No, XLAV had to be the last surviving player to win. He is the one who has every right to complain that his wincon was practically impossible.

Danielle, I'm sorry you didn't enjoy the game and that's ok to say, but I can't let you get away with saying you had no chance of winning. That is simply untrue

You've ignored all of my points. I enjoyed the game - I just see that the odds were 95% against us.

I hope to have addressed your points this time. I really don't mean to pick a fight over any of this, and it really was my intention to create a game that people would enjoy playing, so if you did like it then I'm glad to hear it. I can see the argument that town had an advantage because there was a big "swing" built in their favor, as khaos put it. But it is my opinion that you are overstating the degree of the imbalance. If I had to put a number, I would say 65-35 at worst in favor of town.

Anyway, I think we will just disagree but thank you for your input all the same. You have given me a lot to think about and I will make some changes for the next time I mod, hopefully create a better game
ESocialBookworm
Posts: 14,368
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10/28/2014 4:38:24 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
GG.

Without those quotes, mafia might've won...
Solonkr~
I don't care about whether an ideology is "necessary" or not,
I care about how to solve problems,
which is what everyone else should also care about.

Ken~
In essence, the world is fucked up and you can either ignore it, become cynical or bitter about it.

Me~
"BAILEY + SOLON = SAILEY
MY SHIP SAILEY MUST SAIL"

SCREW THAT SHIZ #BANNIE = BAILEY & ANNIE

P.S. Shipped Sailey before it was cannon bitches.
ford_prefect
Posts: 4,139
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10/28/2014 4:57:27 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
For those who are curious, here are the flavor quotes in each player's PM:

Arthur Dent: "Very nice. Wonderfully nice. I don't know when I've ever been anywhere nicer. I'm happy here. They like me, I make sandwiches for them, and... er, well, that's it really. They like me and I make sandwiches for them. I don't expect you'd like it very much, but for me it's, well, it's perfect."

Ford Prefect: Ford Prefect was desperate that any flying saucer at all would arrive soon because fifteen years was a long time to get stranded anywhere, particularly somewhere as mind-bogglingly dull as the Earth. He knew how to see the Marvels of the Universe for less than thirty Altairian dollars a day. In fact, Ford Prefect was a roving researcher for that wholly remarkable book, the Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy.

Zaphod Beeblebrox: "If there's anything more important than my ego around, I want it caught and shot now."

Marvin: "That ship hated me because I talked to it. I got very bored and depressed, so I went and plugged myself in to its external computer feed. I talked to the computer at great length and explained my view of the Universe to it." "And what happened?" "It committed suicide."

Hotblack Desiato: The bodyguard leaned forward across the table. Had Hotblack Desiato been alive, he probably would have deemed this a good moment to lean back, or even go for a walk. His bodyguard was not a man who improved with proximity. On account of his unfortunate condition, however, Hotblack Desiato remained totally inert.

Colin: This was fun, thought Ford, giving Colin a friendly pat. Colin was about the first genuinely useful robot Ford had ever encountered. Colin bobbed along in the air in front of him in a lather of cheerful ecstasy. Ford was glad he'd named him after a dog.

Deep Thought: "I spare not a single unit of thought on these cybernetic simpletons! I speak of none but the computer that is to come after me! You know nothing of future time. And yet in my teeming circuitry I can navigate the infinite delta streams of probability and see that there must one day come a computer whose merest operational parameters I am not worthy to calculate, but which it will be my fate to eventually design."

The Great Prophet Zarquon: "What's this?" whispered Max, wild-eyed. "What's happening?" At the back of the Restaurant the stony-faced party from the Church of the Second Coming of the Great Prophet Zarquon leaped ecstatically to their feet chanting and crying. Max blinked in amazement. He threw up his arms to the audience. "A big hand please, ladies and gentlemen," he hollered, "for the Great Prophet Zarquon! He has come! Zarquon has come again!"

Old Thrashbarg: Old Thrashbarg chewed angrily on his beard. To continue to stand there with his arms upraised? To kneel with his head bowed forward and his staff held out pointing at them? To fall backward as if overcome in some titanic inner struggle?

Agrajag: "The interesting thing about reincarnation is that most people, most spirits, are not aware that it is happening to them. I was aware. That is, I became aware. Slowly. Gradually. I could hardly help it, could I? When the same thing kept happening, over and over and over again! Every life I ever lived, I got killed by Arthur Dent. Any world, any body, any time, I'm just getting settled down, along comes Arthur Dent, pow, he kills me. Hard not to notice. Bit of a memory-jogger. Bit of a pointer. Bit of a bloody giveaway! And gradually I got to piece it together, Dent, you multiple-me murderer!"

Benjy mouse and Frankie mouse: "I thought you said you could just read his brain electronically." "Oh yes, but we'd have to get it out first. It's got to be prepared. Treated. Diced."

Prostetnic Vogon Jeltz: "So what you're saying is that I write poetry because underneath my mean callous heartless exterior I really just want to be loved. Is that right? Well, you're completely wrong. I just write poetry to throw my mean callous heartless exterior into sharp relief. I'm going to throw you off the ship anyway. Guard! Take the prisoners to number three airlock and throw them out!"

Hactar: "I deliberately nurtured the planet of Krikkit till they would arrive at the same state of mind as the Silastic Armorfiends, and require of me the design of the bomb I failed to make the first time. I was only trying to fulfill my function... There was also the matter of revenge, of course. Remember that I was pulverized and then left in a crippled and semi-impotent state for billions of years. I honestly would rather like to wipe out the Universe. You would feel the same way, believe me."
Bullish
Posts: 3,527
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10/28/2014 5:10:54 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
G.G.

Very well done mafia. Up till the very end I thought Endark and Esocial were more likely mafia.
0x5f3759df
Daltonian
Posts: 4,797
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10/28/2014 5:25:06 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 10/28/2014 5:10:54 PM, Bullish wrote:
G.G.

Very well done mafia. Up till the very end I thought Endark and Esocial were more likely mafia.
I did too. I was near sure at one point that Endark had to be scum. At least I wasn't alone.
F _ C K
All I need is "u", baby
EndarkenedRationalist
Posts: 14,201
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10/28/2014 5:34:04 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 10/28/2014 5:25:06 PM, Daltonian wrote:
At 10/28/2014 5:10:54 PM, Bullish wrote:
G.G.

Very well done mafia. Up till the very end I thought Endark and Esocial were more likely mafia.
I did too. I was near sure at one point that Endark had to be scum. At least I wasn't alone.

xD
If I used the same town/scum metas each time, it'd be easy to peg me.
XLAV
Posts: 13,715
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10/28/2014 10:20:47 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 10/28/2014 1:37:18 AM, Maikuru wrote:
Between a popular, an innocent child, a cop, and all the medium results, there really was a hell of a lot of town confirming going on. Hard to win for mafia, and almost impossible for TP.

Pretty much the reason why I kept on priming townies.