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What is Pay2Win?

Heterodox
Posts: 293
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11/22/2014 5:32:54 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
A little curious as to what exactly some of you would qualify as Pay2Win.

I imagine that pure vanity/cosmetic items wouldn't be considered Pay2Win by just about most people (unless the visual was somehow an advantage), but where it gets a little foggy for most people is exactly what kind of in-game advantages, if any, are not considered Pay2Win and/or which ones are?

Are games that have items at the cash shop, but also have everything available to grind out in-game Pay2Win or just Pay2SaveTime?

Is there a ratio between time spent in game to get an item vs. money spent for that item that would change your answer to the last question?
9spaceking
Posts: 4,213
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11/22/2014 9:19:31 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 11/22/2014 5:32:54 AM, Heterodox wrote:
A little curious as to what exactly some of you would qualify as Pay2Win.

I imagine that pure vanity/cosmetic items wouldn't be considered Pay2Win by just about most people (unless the visual was somehow an advantage), but where it gets a little foggy for most people is exactly what kind of in-game advantages, if any, are not considered Pay2Win and/or which ones are?

Are games that have items at the cash shop, but also have everything available to grind out in-game Pay2Win or just Pay2SaveTime?

Is there a ratio between time spent in game to get an item vs. money spent for that item that would change your answer to the last question?
Probably like Wizard101, Pirate101, World of Warcraft, and other games that stop you at some point in progress that prevent you from completing the game unless you give money.
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Mikal
Posts: 11,270
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11/23/2014 9:37:18 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 11/22/2014 5:32:54 AM, Heterodox wrote:
A little curious as to what exactly some of you would qualify as Pay2Win.

I imagine that pure vanity/cosmetic items wouldn't be considered Pay2Win by just about most people (unless the visual was somehow an advantage), but where it gets a little foggy for most people is exactly what kind of in-game advantages, if any, are not considered Pay2Win and/or which ones are?

Are games that have items at the cash shop, but also have everything available to grind out in-game Pay2Win or just Pay2SaveTime?

Is there a ratio between time spent in game to get an item vs. money spent for that item that would change your answer to the last question?

Most games implement p2w. Tera was a primary game that had that concept. There was only a few items you could get by paying for them with real money, and most of the items were sold for in game currency. P2w in most cases is a way where bad players or players without skill can get to the same level as someone that has invested countless hours and that has skill just by buying their way to the top. It includes buying items due to a large amount of in game gold or etc and so forth

example : item a drops from monster a. To get the item drop from monster a you have to kill monster a. Monster a requires a great deal of game knowledge and skill to defeat. You have to have some of the best items in the game to defeat him along with an excessive amount of skill and knowledge. When you get the drop from monster a, item a sells for (x) amount of money. (x) is a massive amount of in game money and could take up to a month to grind. Player a is a noob and does not want to wait the time it takes to grind the money. He would first have to get to level 60 (max level) to wear the item and then invest countless amount of hours and time ot save up for the item he wants. Player B got the Item a drop and puts the item up for (x) money. Player a then decides screw it, and pays 200 dollars in real life money to get the amount of in game gold required to purchase the item. He is now stronger than a massive amount of players in the game that did not pay that kind of money

The issue is that by paying in life money, you can excel or bipass players that cannot pay it. It motivates you to pay because you get advantages in game. It mitigates time and energy that it normally would take you to be a good player and learn proper game mechanics. p2w is a term where you can bipass the normal amount of time it takes you to adopt to a skill curve and bipass players by getting good items, all because you threw money at the game.
tvellalott
Posts: 10,864
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11/23/2014 8:16:42 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 11/22/2014 9:19:31 AM, 9spaceking wrote:
At 11/22/2014 5:32:54 AM, Heterodox wrote:
A little curious as to what exactly some of you would qualify as Pay2Win.

I imagine that pure vanity/cosmetic items wouldn't be considered Pay2Win by just about most people (unless the visual was somehow an advantage), but where it gets a little foggy for most people is exactly what kind of in-game advantages, if any, are not considered Pay2Win and/or which ones are?

Are games that have items at the cash shop, but also have everything available to grind out in-game Pay2Win or just Pay2SaveTime?

Is there a ratio between time spent in game to get an item vs. money spent for that item that would change your answer to the last question?
Probably like Wizard101, Pirate101, World of Warcraft, and other games that stop you at some point in progress that prevent you from completing the game unless you give money.

wat?
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Heterodox
Posts: 293
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12/6/2014 6:11:58 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
My definition would be:

"Using money to purchase an advantage that cannot be reasonably obtained in-game."

Reasonably is just very subjective and I wondered if there was some definition that was more objective. It seems that this is just one area that not everyone seems to be able to agree on.
Zaradi
Posts: 14,124
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12/6/2014 11:13:48 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 11/23/2014 9:37:18 AM, Mikal wrote:

Agree with most of that tirade except for one part: it doesn't actually give you in-game knowledge and abilities to beat skill curves and such.

To take your example of throwing money at a game to get an item that would take forever and a half to grind out normally (a prospect I'm looking at having to do myself >.> fml), all throwing money at the game does is grant you the item. Sure the item in itself may give you a statistical power spike, but if that's all a game ever was then we'd get bored of games after everyone got the OP item and couldn't do anything to each other after that.

To put it plainly, if I throw money at a game to get an OP item to go PvP, that doesn't make me a better player than other people simply because I threw money at the game. I can still get my a** kicked if I'm a terrible player. If anything I'd argue that by taking the---I was about to say cheap way out, but now that I think about it cheap probably isn't the best word for it---easy way through, you lose out on actual gameplay that it would've taken you to get to having that item, which means less actual gameplay time and less actual skill, assuming that more play = better skill.

To put it in even simpler terms that I know you and I can comprehend at least, it doesn't matter how OP that new champion in league sounds. If I just throw money at the game to buy the OP champion, that doesn't make me a better player than people, and I can still feed hella hard.

Savvy?
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Mikal
Posts: 11,270
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12/6/2014 11:28:26 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 12/6/2014 11:13:48 AM, Zaradi wrote:
At 11/23/2014 9:37:18 AM, Mikal wrote:

Agree with most of that tirade except for one part: it doesn't actually give you in-game knowledge and abilities to beat skill curves and such.

To take your example of throwing money at a game to get an item that would take forever and a half to grind out normally (a prospect I'm looking at having to do myself >.> fml), all throwing money at the game does is grant you the item. Sure the item in itself may give you a statistical power spike, but if that's all a game ever was then we'd get bored of games after everyone got the OP item and couldn't do anything to each other after that.

To put it plainly, if I throw money at a game to get an OP item to go PvP, that doesn't make me a better player than other people simply because I threw money at the game. I can still get my a** kicked if I'm a terrible player. If anything I'd argue that by taking the---I was about to say cheap way out, but now that I think about it cheap probably isn't the best word for it---easy way through, you lose out on actual gameplay that it would've taken you to get to having that item, which means less actual gameplay time and less actual skill, assuming that more play = better skill.

To put it in even simpler terms that I know you and I can comprehend at least, it doesn't matter how OP that new champion in league sounds. If I just throw money at the game to buy the OP champion, that doesn't make me a better player than people, and I can still feed hella hard.

Savvy?

He added on the last part well, and I concur. It just gives you an edge with items, exp , etc
tvellalott
Posts: 10,864
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12/6/2014 8:16:52 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
Pay 2 Win is any game where you can use a credit card to make the game easier. Examples range from Diablo 3 (before they removed the Auction House, where you could literally buy your way to the top 1% of items) to Candy Crush Saga, where you can buy power ups which make the game a lot easier (in fact, some levels I've been told are almost impossible without said power-ups.)
Freemium games are not necessarily pay to win. A game like Path of Exile has in-game purchases. but they've modelled it on the principle of fair play; you can't buy items which improve your character's ability, only their aesthetics.
Someone mentioned WoW as a pay 2 win game. I disagree with this, although you are technically right. I mean, you can buy items with real money but only through 3rd party services.
Pay 2 win is alright with me; I don't have the time to put 120 hours into getting a helmet or some such, so if I can splash a bit of cash to get it, I will.
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Heterodox
Posts: 293
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12/13/2014 2:52:46 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 12/6/2014 8:16:52 PM, tvellalott wrote:
Pay 2 Win is any game where you can use a credit card to make the game easier. Examples range from Diablo 3 (before they removed the Auction House, where you could literally buy your way to the top 1% of items) to Candy Crush Saga, where you can buy power ups which make the game a lot easier (in fact, some levels I've been told are almost impossible without said power-ups.)
Freemium games are not necessarily pay to win. A game like Path of Exile has in-game purchases. but they've modelled it on the principle of fair play; you can't buy items which improve your character's ability, only their aesthetics.
Someone mentioned WoW as a pay 2 win game. I disagree with this, although you are technically right. I mean, you can buy items with real money but only through 3rd party services.
Pay 2 win is alright with me; I don't have the time to put 120 hours into getting a helmet or some such, so if I can splash a bit of cash to get it, I will.

Yeah, I don't really care about whether P2W is "right" or "wrong". More interested in getting the definition and doesn't look like I will any time soon.

So, if you can purchase advantages through a 3rd party you don't consider the game to be pay2win?
Khaos_Mage
Posts: 23,214
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12/13/2014 9:34:20 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 11/22/2014 5:32:54 AM, Heterodox wrote:
A little curious as to what exactly some of you would qualify as Pay2Win.

I'd call Pay2Win anything where those who pay get an unfair advantage, that allows them to "win".
If the issue is just playing a linear game with no community, then it is not P2W, as it is just a timesaver (though, it violates the spirit of the game, IMO).
If it is like WOW and people can wreck others' experiences by paying to upgrade, then is it P2W; however, if it cannot affect others (or at least doesn't affect them negatively), then it is not P2W.

Lastly, if the game cannot be completed/enjoyed without buying upgrades (or requires hoarding from the beginning of the game), then it is P2W. This last criteria generally applies to freemium games.
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Heterodox
Posts: 293
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12/14/2014 7:16:16 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 12/13/2014 9:34:20 AM, Khaos_Mage wrote:
At 11/22/2014 5:32:54 AM, Heterodox wrote:
A little curious as to what exactly some of you would qualify as Pay2Win.

I'd call Pay2Win anything where those who pay get an unfair advantage, that allows them to "win".
If the issue is just playing a linear game with no community, then it is not P2W, as it is just a timesaver (though, it violates the spirit of the game, IMO).
If it is like WOW and people can wreck others' experiences by paying to upgrade, then is it P2W; however, if it cannot affect others (or at least doesn't affect them negatively), then it is not P2W.

Lastly, if the game cannot be completed/enjoyed without buying upgrades (or requires hoarding from the beginning of the game), then it is P2W. This last criteria generally applies to freemium games.

What's the difference between paying for an advantage vs paying for an unfair advantage? What if they purchase an advantage, but they suck and don't win with the advantage?
TheAntidoter
Posts: 4,323
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12/14/2014 9:39:56 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 12/14/2014 7:16:16 PM, Heterodox wrote:
At 12/13/2014 9:34:20 AM, Khaos_Mage wrote:
At 11/22/2014 5:32:54 AM, Heterodox wrote:
A little curious as to what exactly some of you would qualify as Pay2Win.

I'd call Pay2Win anything where those who pay get an unfair advantage, that allows them to "win".
If the issue is just playing a linear game with no community, then it is not P2W, as it is just a timesaver (though, it violates the spirit of the game, IMO).
If it is like WOW and people can wreck others' experiences by paying to upgrade, then is it P2W; however, if it cannot affect others (or at least doesn't affect them negatively), then it is not P2W.

Lastly, if the game cannot be completed/enjoyed without buying upgrades (or requires hoarding from the beginning of the game), then it is P2W. This last criteria generally applies to freemium games.

What's the difference between paying for an advantage vs paying for an unfair advantage? What if they purchase an advantage, but they suck and don't win with the advantage?

Then it's Pay2Lose.

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Khaos_Mage
Posts: 23,214
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12/14/2014 9:51:45 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 12/14/2014 7:16:16 PM, Heterodox wrote:
At 12/13/2014 9:34:20 AM, Khaos_Mage wrote:
At 11/22/2014 5:32:54 AM, Heterodox wrote:
A little curious as to what exactly some of you would qualify as Pay2Win.

I'd call Pay2Win anything where those who pay get an unfair advantage, that allows them to "win".
If the issue is just playing a linear game with no community, then it is not P2W, as it is just a timesaver (though, it violates the spirit of the game, IMO).
If it is like WOW and people can wreck others' experiences by paying to upgrade, then is it P2W; however, if it cannot affect others (or at least doesn't affect them negatively), then it is not P2W.

Lastly, if the game cannot be completed/enjoyed without buying upgrades (or requires hoarding from the beginning of the game), then it is P2W. This last criteria generally applies to freemium games.

What's the difference between paying for an advantage vs paying for an unfair advantage?
Player interaction.
If I play missions that do not adversely affect your gameplay, then nothing.
However, if I can pay $100 to be level 99 at game launch, and I just go around killing noobs for three months, that affects your gameplay, and that is "winning".

What if they purchase an advantage, but they suck and don't win with the advantage?
If it turns the tide in their favor AGAINST ME, then it is pay to win. The fact that I somehow managed to win is irrelevant.
If he still can't be the boss of the game, while I can without paying, that isn't pay2win, since I didn't have to pay to win, and that guy just sucks.

If winning is unlikely without paying, either beating the game or player interaction, then it is pay2win.
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