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CLASSIK MAFIA - End Game

Danielle
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12/8/2014 11:53:15 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
[ LIVING ]

01. Maikuru
02. VelCrow
03. Endark2

First Place: The MAFIA wins!
Second Place: Third Party
Last Place: Town: womp womp...

Maikuru: You are the mafia"s Framer. Each night phase you may target a player and make them appear guilty upon investigation for one full day 24 hours. You win with the mafia.

Endark2 (Uchiha): You are the town"s Judge. During the night phase, someone from the town will be placed before you on death row (player to be determined via random number generator from among the living). You will judge their guilt or innocence, i.e. sentence their fate to life or death. This counts as a visit. You win with the town. --- RECRUITED TO THE MAFIA.

VelCrow: You are the town"s Survivor. You don"t care about your fellow townies; your goal is simply to survive " with or without them. You are paranoid but popular. If anyone visits you during the night for any reason, they will die (unless somehow protected). You would investigate GUILTY (non-town). It also requires 1 more vote than necessary to lynch you. You win if you are the last surviving player, or no other party can win. You win by yourself.

[ GRAVEYARD ]

Endark1: Cop, Town
XLAV: Peaceful Protester, Town
socialpinko: Babysitter, Town
TUF/tvellalott: Deputy, Town
Khaos1: Watcher, Town
Bullish: JOAT, Mafia
Airmax: Vigilante, Town
Bossy: Yakuza, Mafia
RevNge: Tracker, Town
mortsdor: JOAT, Town

Khaos2 (TN05): You are the mafia"s Lawyer. Each night phase you may target a player on your team (including yourself) to appear innocent upon investigation for one full day. You win with the mafia.

Daltonian: You are the town"s Friendly Neighbor. On night phase 1, you may target a player and inform them that you are town. This is a one-shot ability. Your target"s affiliation will not be revealed to you. You win with the town.

Wylted: You are the town"s Sensor. You can detect how many players with non-town win conditions (scum) were on the lynch bandwagon the previous day phase. This is not a visiting role. You win with the town.

======================================================================

Game Mechanics & Set-Up

Let me know if people wanna know night actions.

Survivor is one of the hardest win conditions in Mafia. To help, I made the Survivor a popular PGO. They could claim Popular Townie, PGO or both. However the town could still investigate them guilty considering PGO was a night action and investigations occurred during the day phase. Given the risky claim of PGO, they would be a likely investigation candidate hence the benefit of them also being popular. Their winning depended largely on their play and meta, i.e., avoiding suspicion, knowing what to claim and when, and responding to the pressure appropriately. VelCrow almost won! He played well by staying low key.

Regarding the siblings, the incentive for the mafia to keep Khaos1 alive is that Bullish was the only mafioso with a useful role if/when the cops were dead. After NP2 there were essentially two goons. There was a regular, non-flavored Cop and Deputy to ensure the town could continuously investigate successfully throughout the game until both were dead" unless their actions were manipulated by the scum roles. The mafia's actions would be in effect for 24 hours (i.e. during the next day phase). I made the Cops have day time actions to combat the mafia having both a Lawyer and a Framer. The scum would have to pick targets at night, while the Cop could choose who to investigate during the day depending on that day's game play. I thought this was a good balance. The mafia had strong roles but would have to guess without knowing how the next day phase would pan out.

I think Watcher is one of the most important roles in the game, so the siblings were powerful and balanced each other.

A Yakuza sacrifices their life to recruit. While it's a 1-for-1 trade off, in theory the town doesn't know who the mafia chose, thus making it useful for the mafia team. This would discourage them from recruiting say the Vigilante (and they weren't able to Yak the PGO by my standards) so hopefully not giving them extra killing roles. It's also why I wanted to ensure the Cop(s) could investigate for at least a few day phases, to help the town figure out who the mafia Yakked (assuming they were able to). The mafia got lucky with the cops dying so early on.

The Babysitter is an iffy role. When in doubt, they should always forfeit their night action if they think they might be the target of death for any reason. Unless they are killed at night, they act as a Doctor of sorts. I didn't include any strong protective roles in the game because I didn't mind a lot of people dying (which was possible but not a given) as smaller games prompt activity.

The town JOAT had the opportunity to protect one night via a 1x doctor power, as well as commute and be a 1-shot politician. The politician capability might help him prove his role in the DP. Additionally the fact that there was a mafia JOAT, if dead, could help validate him being a town JOAT.

I have to admit that I made a mistake with XLAV's role, the Peaceful Protester. His initial role, and how Khaos meant it to be I believe, was written as: You are the town"s Peaceful Protester. Each night phase you may select one player. You will stage a 24 hour sit-in protest in front of their house, thus interfering with not only their actions but those of any visitors as well, including any kills. You win with the town.

But I made a mistake. So I changed his role to be: You are the town"s Peaceful Protester. Each night phase you may select one player. You will stage a 24 hour sit-in protest in front of their house, thus interfering with all non-lethal visitor actions. If you want a bigger protest to protect your target from death, you will also role block your target in the process. You win with the town. --- This was because I messed up the night actions and didn't make him RB someone when he should have.

The Vigilante could always be questioned as a TP killing role, especially if they make a bad decision(s).

The Tracker is a classic, straight forward role. RevNge sucked at it.

Daltonian was able to confirm his innocence to another player. However, he had to choose the player on NP1, thus not ensuring he would choose a townie to confirm his credibility. He did in fact choose scum, but even so the scum player might confirm the Messenger as town to conceal his own guilt.

The mafia was helped because of the fact that there could potentially be many deaths in one night phase (as there was) given specific circumstances. As such, I gave Wylted one of the strongest roles in Mafia -- the Sensor. This role could detect how many scum were on the previous lynch bandwagon. It's like a super detective. This threatened not only mafia but TP. With the 60/40 (estimate) chance that mafia help lynch innocent people, by considering confirmed or probable townies then this role can hand over scum quite readily, especially if investigating the lynch of someone innocent as Wylted correctly did. The Sensor also combats the mafia Yakuza.

Questions, Comments, Concerns? I wrote this really quickly without thinking...
President of DDO
VelCrow
Posts: 1,273
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12/9/2014 12:19:15 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 12/9/2014 12:02:48 AM, Bullish wrote:
G.g.

Question how did Dalton and Wylted die together?
"Ah....So when god "Taught you" online, did he have a user name like "Darthmaulrules1337", and did he talk in all caps?" ~ Axonly

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Danielle
Posts: 21,330
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12/9/2014 12:39:06 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 12/9/2014 12:19:15 AM, VelCrow wrote:
At 12/9/2014 12:02:48 AM, Bullish wrote:
G.g.

Question how did Dalton and Wylted die together?

Endark was the Judge, and he ruled GUILTY and killed him.

I forgot to add that on NP1 Daltonian was randomly put on trial (ruled innocent). On NP2 it was Daltonian again (by pure random luck, again ruled innocent). On NP3 bossyburrito was put on trial and ruled innocent, but the mafia yakked him anyway. On NP4 Maikuru was on trial. On NP5 Daltonian was put on trial. And the mafia killed Wylted.
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VelCrow
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12/9/2014 12:50:23 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 12/9/2014 12:39:06 AM, Danielle wrote:
At 12/9/2014 12:19:15 AM, VelCrow wrote:
At 12/9/2014 12:02:48 AM, Bullish wrote:
G.g.

Question how did Dalton and Wylted die together?

Endark was the Judge, and he ruled GUILTY and killed him.

I forgot to add that on NP1 Daltonian was randomly put on trial (ruled innocent). On NP2 it was Daltonian again (by pure random luck, again ruled innocent). On NP3 bossyburrito was put on trial and ruled innocent, but the mafia yakked him anyway. On NP4 Maikuru was on trial. On NP5 Daltonian was put on trial. And the mafia killed Wylted.

owh i din know yak targets retain their abilities.
"Ah....So when god "Taught you" online, did he have a user name like "Darthmaulrules1337", and did he talk in all caps?" ~ Axonly

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bossyburrito
Posts: 14,075
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12/9/2014 5:55:25 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
I enjoyed that game - I liked the more uncommon roles that were put in.

GG!
#UnbanTheMadman

"Some will sell their dreams for small desires
Or lose the race to rats
Get caught in ticking traps
And start to dream of somewhere
To relax their restless flight
Somewhere out of a memory of lighted streets on quiet nights..."

~ Rush
mortsdor
Posts: 1,181
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12/9/2014 8:01:28 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
Day time cop could've also been important regarding Vel...
not that that would've helped, though at least they wouldn't die.

the killing NP1 was pretty nuts.

also, I think having a Vig and Judge potentially lets the Yakuza really shine, though by that time the vig had already died.

Also, hindsight, should've pushed harder on Endark when the yakuza died...
it was suspect and something I worried about, quite a coincidence that he killed the yakuza, but probably should've been lynchable just on the worry that judge would've been recruited.
Also could've potentially diverted from Rev who I thought was probably innocent.

However, it's hard to defend a guy who votes for himself.
Khaos_Mage
Posts: 23,214
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12/9/2014 8:02:32 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
Dani, that TP was OP.
Had he claimed, and proven, his role of popular, there is no way for him to lose.
He would not have been lynched.
He could not be killed (except by judge, who wouldn't)
He could not be yak'd.
So, the only way for him to die was to be targeted by XLAV and mafia needed to NK him, or mafia needed to Yak judge.

Very narrow chance of losing.
Also, 2x sensor is OP.

Other than that, I enjoyed it.
My work here is, finally, done.
mortsdor
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12/9/2014 8:09:42 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 12/9/2014 8:02:32 AM, Khaos_Mage wrote:
Also, 2x sensor is OP.

You and Maikuru made that point perfectly clear during the game, lol
mortsdor
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12/9/2014 8:09:42 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 12/9/2014 8:02:32 AM, Khaos_Mage wrote:
Also, 2x sensor is OP.

You and Maikuru made that point perfectly clear during the game, lol
mortsdor
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12/9/2014 8:09:42 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 12/9/2014 8:02:32 AM, Khaos_Mage wrote:
Also, 2x sensor is OP.

You and Maikuru made that point perfectly clear during the game, lol
mortsdor
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12/9/2014 8:14:09 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 12/9/2014 8:02:32 AM, Khaos_Mage wrote:
Dani, that TP was OP.
Had he claimed, and proven, his role of popular, there is no way for him to lose.
He would not have been lynched.
He could not be killed (except by judge, who wouldn't)
He could not be yak'd.
So, the only way for him to die was to be targeted by XLAV and mafia needed to NK him, or mafia needed to Yak judge.

Very narrow chance of losing.
Also, 2x sensor is OP.

Other than that, I enjoyed it.

I've known Dani's thought survivor has needed a big upgrade since Panda's Heavy Metal Mafia 8) lol

So when you claimed survivor after I died I knew you were mafia.. B/c I didn't think she'd put a Survivor in the game.

Apparently she did, but it was a super-survivor ;)
Khaos_Mage
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12/9/2014 8:15:02 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
The time has come to talk of many things.....about Khaos1.

First, I want to congratulate myself as Khaos1. At the end of DP2, I had found 3/5 of scum, and, by lynching inactives, we'd have gotten bossy and TN05.

Second, let me be clear, because people do not pay attention to meta.
1. I have no problem lynching townies/myself for tactical reasons.
2. Given my interaction with Bullish in the Sibling PM, I was 80% sure he was scum, especially with my role being watcher, that I was TRYING to be lynched.
3. Even if I was wrong about Bullish being scum, I am still a liability to town, and I'd rather be taken out earlier than later. As, I suggest any "confirmed" liability, like hated or lover.

It fvcking amazing that every single time I try to get lynched, I cannot.

Third, the reason I claimed Vig was to out the Vig. Scum had no direct redirection, only a bus driver, so I thought I'd claim the only town sided killing role (forget about judge), to be CC'd, thus ensuring Vig is not SK.

Fourth, the reason I came out swinging for Rev DP2 was because of that comment in our mafia PM that I told Dalt about DP5. Not something I can really say.

Fifth, the way things were going, I was perfectly fine, I was perfectly fine being lynched DP3 or DP4, I just wanted to nab results.

Sixth, I gave a riddle DP1 regarding my actions. No reason to kill me before I explained it.
My work here is, finally, done.
Khaos_Mage
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12/9/2014 8:28:59 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
Regarding Khaos2 -

Maikuru specifically said my attitude changed when I replaced in.
It did.

BUT NOT BECAUSE I WAS SCUM.

My case against Airmax was ready to go. Danielle can confirm, when I replaced in, I thought Vel, Maikuru, and Airmax were scum. (and Rev or Wylted, given their play and my roles as Khaos1, thinking Rev was scum if Bullish was, and town if Bullish was scum)

Further, I was TP hunting, so, while it was a shift in previous play this game, it should not have been scummy, since I legit thought that Mort was TP.

--------------------
Rev - you suck. You were not about to be lynched except for your own stupid play, which happened AFTER you were lynched. Due to this, you ensured town got third place. Good job.
You asked to be replaced, so STFU!!! Jesus.
Further, awful, awful tracking choices and not paying attention to your results.

Dalt - you should try to pay more attention. While I was conflicted due to my roles and the sibling thing regarding Rev, Dani actually confirmed Rev was town in the other game. A tidbit I would have used had I replaced him, and as mafia, I would not have disclosed.

Airmax, you should have shot ER NP3, IMO. Also, you should have given me a chance to explain myself. It's funny, because you could have shot me NP1, and I'd still have survived. LOL
Had you, and it would have confirmed XLAV, actually.

XLAV, post your original role, please.

Vel, no offense, but are you this stupid, or was it a ploy? You seemed knowledgeable and clueless at the same time, and it was pissing me off.

Jesus, why aren't games active anymore?!?
My work here is, finally, done.
Khaos_Mage
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12/9/2014 8:32:05 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
Guess what people, I take games seriously, and when I found scum, I take that seriously.
That is not a scum tell of mine, so stop thinking it is.
My work here is, finally, done.
Danielle
Posts: 21,330
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12/9/2014 8:59:39 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 12/9/2014 8:15:02 AM, Khaos_Mage wrote:
Third, the reason I claimed Vig was to out the Vig. Scum had no direct redirection, only a bus driver, so I thought I'd claim the only town sided killing role (forget about judge), to be CC'd, thus ensuring Vig is not SK.

I'm sorry... what was it you were saying in the other thread again about you never lying as town? And this being just an unfair misconception people have of you?

I wanna respond to the rest of the posts but I just had to point this out. In the last games I modded and played in with you, I'm almost certain (if memory serves) that as town you lied about your role and/or results for whatever "strategic reason" you had in mind. I'm not saying they were bad ideas, but I'm saying you do suspect things as town (like lie) and certainly don't play by the meta that townies never lie about their roles/actions as I know some players do.

Anyway I'm busy but I'll respond to the rest of this later!
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Danielle
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12/9/2014 9:02:12 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 12/9/2014 7:09:18 AM, XLAV wrote:
MVPs?

Maikuru was the MVP. He was the most active, vocal and helpful mafioso. I'm surprised he lived as long as he did. Ative players who stay alive are usually auto suspect. The town scum hunting (and night actions) in this game were horrible, but even so Maikuru played well as scum. I don't think there was a town MVP... just look at the grave yard. There is certainly the opposite of a town MVP lol ;)
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VelCrow
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12/9/2014 9:11:46 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 12/9/2014 8:28:59 AM, Khaos_Mage wrote:

Vel, no offense, but are you this stupid, or was it a ploy? You seemed knowledgeable and clueless at the same time, and it was pissing me off.

my initial dumb telling and lurking was to keep me off the radar as much as possible and that would have worked well. But during DP 5 i suddenly realize that there's too many town deaths so from your pov my IQ level shot up like 5 times more. But of course I was under the assumption that a yakked target loses their original abilities like in epicmafia.

That being said @Maikuru were you genuinely frustrated or was that a ploy? :D
"Ah....So when god "Taught you" online, did he have a user name like "Darthmaulrules1337", and did he talk in all caps?" ~ Axonly

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Khaos_Mage
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12/9/2014 9:13:36 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 12/9/2014 8:59:39 AM, Danielle wrote:
At 12/9/2014 8:15:02 AM, Khaos_Mage wrote:
Third, the reason I claimed Vig was to out the Vig. Scum had no direct redirection, only a bus driver, so I thought I'd claim the only town sided killing role (forget about judge), to be CC'd, thus ensuring Vig is not SK.

I'm sorry... what was it you were saying in the other thread again about you never lying as town? And this being just an unfair misconception people have of you?
Let me clarify:
Even when I lie as town, I expect to die. (except in advernturer when I lied to ONE person in a PM, and whatever game I was cop and snagged you to claim cop as well, but that was to make up for my horrible night action)
I wanted to be lynched for lynch analysis, since my sibling, if mafia, likely had a powerful role, as did I. If town, he likely had nothing.
And, keep in mind, this misconception of me lying about my role has gone on long before these two instances.
I am known for being scummy, because of the way I think and act and talk. Not for the lies I make. It's just a moving of the goalposts kind of mentality:
1. Khaos is a scummy player
2. Khaos has lied about his role
3. Khaos is a a scummy player because he lied about his role

No, I'm a scummy player because most people are too rigid in their thinking, and I am too liberal in mine.

I wanna respond to the rest of the posts but I just had to point this out. In the last games I modded and played in with you, I'm almost certain (if memory serves) that as town you lied about your role and/or results for whatever "strategic reason" you had in mind. I'm not saying they were bad ideas, but I'm saying you do suspect things as town (like lie) and certainly don't play by the meta that townies never lie about their roles/actions as I know some players do.
I was hated, and wanted to die. I was a liability. Sound familiar?
So, I claimed cop to draw the NK. It did not work, since they role copped me, and I was lynched when I claimed, I think. (if not, then I was believed, and our MYLO became LYLO)

Anyway I'm busy but I'll respond to the rest of this later!
My work here is, finally, done.
Danielle
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12/9/2014 9:16:28 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 12/9/2014 8:02:32 AM, Khaos_Mage wrote:
Dani, that TP was OP.
Had he claimed, and proven, his role of popular, there is no way for him to lose.
He would not have been lynched.
He could not be killed (except by judge, who wouldn't)
He could not be yak'd.
So, the only way for him to die was to be targeted by XLAV and mafia needed to NK him, or mafia needed to Yak judge.

I disagree. Or rather as mortsdor said, I think Survivor (and some TP roles in general) need more help to win. They're unrealistic. In the first Mafia thread, Maikuru made a list of potential fake claims. I thought I made it easy for the mafia to fake claim by providing a huge list of potential roles in an open set-up. However, as Maikuru explained, because of the nature of the roles there are actually not that many that people can fake, and there is danger in being pressured early as scum. I know that two of the roles the mafia were set on claiming (Babysitter and Peaceful Protester I believe) were actually IN the game, and they would have been cc'd if pressured to claim earlier than they were... which would have been a lot more likely if the town were actually active. A lone TP player working alone would have an even harder time fake claiming.

VelCrow WAS pressured early and DIDN'T have a fake claim; he was almost lynched -- but then the town went silent and people completely forgot and moved on from him. He was hardly active despite almost dying DP1. I have no idea why he didn't claim Popular. I agree that doing so would have been in his favor. However, you can't be certain of anything in Mafia. He could have been Popular scum. There were two (regular) Cops... well 1 plus a back-up, which meant VelCrow could have been investigated Guilty during the day phase, since he was only PGO at night. This is the main reason why I disagree about him being OP. People could have also picked up on him being PGO if he didn't claim it. Perhaps I should have put PGO under TP possibility and not Town possibility.

Very narrow chance of losing.
Also, 2x sensor is OP.

I would agree except for the fact that there were so many (kinda provable) townie roles. As Bullish's sibling and a Watcher, Khaos1 was essentially confirmed. Daltonian was essentially confirmed-ish. There were 2 cops and a Tracker. The mafia had a Yakuza to combat and throw off the Sensor. And finally, as was noted in the game, there were a lot of killing roles which could have (and did) really harm the town. I specifically included a lot of potential killing roles in the hopes the numbers would dwindle down, as smaller games are more active games, but I thought the initial balance worked perfectly. Sometimes the balance is not only amongst the roles but in things like the mafia being helped by extra deaths with the town being helped by a 2-shot Sensor. Sensor is also NOT a provable role and one the mafia can/does easily fake. There are a lot of things to consider.
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mortsdor
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12/9/2014 9:19:32 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 12/9/2014 9:02:12 AM, Danielle wrote:
At 12/9/2014 7:09:18 AM, XLAV wrote:
MVPs?

Maikuru was the MVP. He was the most active, vocal and helpful mafioso. I'm surprised he lived as long as he did. Ative players who stay alive are usually auto suspect.

The town scum hunting (and night actions) in this game were horrible, but even so Maikuru played well as scum.

The first few DP's Maikuru was perfect...
the last 2 he was pretty scummy (not that that mattered)

And, as to night actions and scum hunting, there was pretty poor participation, not too much really went our way, and Khaos1's shenanigans confused the hell out of everyone regarding everything.

The first couple DP's were a big bust for town, and after that it came down to mafia playing well.
The only thing that really shouldn't have happened after that was Rev getting lynched... Rather Endark probably should've been.

and My night actions I though were the best I could manage.

np1- none so as to conserve for when I had more to go off of

np2- Commuter so as to avoid any shenanigans, and but still conserve doc... Perhaps someone could suggest I should've doc'd TV and I guess that's right, but I usually tend to think mafia won't hit a claimed cop straightaway, and instead go after townies less in the spotlight.

np3- doc'd myself b/c I didn't have any strong reads and ensure that I'd be around to use Politician the next NP when chances would be good I'd have a better idea.
Mafia NK'd airmax.. but I had though Airmaxx was kind of questionable as vig b/c his reasons for NOT Nk'ing Khaos1 np1 sucked.

np4- politic

I think townies should usually be as straightforward as possible and not try to fool others into doing things.

I think rather than trying to get a Vig to CC (which would've hurt the town), Khaos would've been better off saying that he's a townie with a Good role linked to Bullish, and that he suspects that Bullish is a Mafia with a good role.. and pressure bullish in a straightforward manner.
Instead it caused confusion that ultimately led to wasting DP3 trying to get an Airmaxx lynch for having been confuzzled by khaos' play and responding poorly to it.
Danielle
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12/9/2014 9:22:14 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
Yes mort, your night actions were good. The use of your poli was perfect. I didn't give you strong roles as JOAT because there were already too many investigative roles. I thought Commuter was kinda like BP (or that's how I assumed you would use it) for a night you thought you might get killed. And Doctor was good cuz there were a handful of potential killing roles in the game with no real protection roles (I did that on purpose). I thought Politician would help prove you were a JOAT at least. And if scum JOAT were outed before you, it would increase your perception as pro-town.
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Khaos_Mage
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12/9/2014 9:28:44 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 12/9/2014 9:11:46 AM, VelCrow wrote:
At 12/9/2014 8:28:59 AM, Khaos_Mage wrote:

Vel, no offense, but are you this stupid, or was it a ploy? You seemed knowledgeable and clueless at the same time, and it was pissing me off.

my initial dumb telling and lurking was to keep me off the radar as much as possible and that would have worked well. But during DP 5 i suddenly realize that there's too many town deaths so from your pov my IQ level shot up like 5 times more. But of course I was under the assumption that a yakked target loses their original abilities like in epicmafia.
It's funny, because you weren't off the radar.
I derailed your lynch DP3, remember?

That being said @Maikuru were you genuinely frustrated or was that a ploy? :D
He was a bit mad at me for derailing the lynch.
It makes no sense to me that PGO cannot die in the night. That is just stupid, IMO.
So, when he said we can't kill you, I thought he meant it's not wise to as in killing a bomb is unwise, not that you can literally not be NK'd (i.e. bulletproof). If he did ask Dani that questions, it was before I replaced in, so it was just a misunderstanding, which, is why your role was OP.
My work here is, finally, done.
Khaos_Mage
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12/9/2014 9:38:25 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 12/9/2014 9:16:28 AM, Danielle wrote:
At 12/9/2014 8:02:32 AM, Khaos_Mage wrote:
Dani, that TP was OP.
Had he claimed, and proven, his role of popular, there is no way for him to lose.
He would not have been lynched.
He could not be killed (except by judge, who wouldn't)
He could not be yak'd.
So, the only way for him to die was to be targeted by XLAV and mafia needed to NK him, or mafia needed to Yak judge.

I disagree. Or rather as mortsdor said, I think Survivor (and some TP roles in general) need more help to win. They're unrealistic. In the first Mafia thread, Maikuru made a list of potential fake claims. I thought I made it easy for the mafia to fake claim by providing a huge list of potential roles in an open set-up. However, as Maikuru explained, because of the nature of the roles there are actually not that many that people can fake, and there is danger in being pressured early as scum. I know that two of the roles the mafia were set on claiming (Babysitter and Peaceful Protester I believe) were actually IN the game, and they would have been cc'd if pressured to claim earlier than they were... which would have been a lot more likely if the town were actually active. A lone TP player working alone would have an even harder time fake claiming.

VelCrow WAS pressured early and DIDN'T have a fake claim; he was almost lynched -- but then the town went silent and people completely forgot and moved on from him. He was hardly active despite almost dying DP1. I have no idea why he didn't claim Popular. I agree that doing so would have been in his favor. However, you can't be certain of anything in Mafia. He could have been Popular scum. There were two (regular) Cops... well 1 plus a back-up, which meant VelCrow could have been investigated Guilty during the day phase, since he was only PGO at night. This is the main reason why I disagree about him being OP. People could have also picked up on him being PGO if he didn't claim it. Perhaps I should have put PGO under TP possibility and not Town possibility.

Popular was ONLY listed as town.
Thus, he would never have been lynched, and the only way for him to lose was by luck, which we had.



Very narrow chance of losing.
Also, 2x sensor is OP.

I would agree except for the fact that there were so many (kinda provable) townie roles. As Bullish's sibling and a Watcher, Khaos1 was essentially confirmed. Daltonian was essentially confirmed-ish. There were 2 cops and a Tracker. The mafia had a Yakuza to combat and throw off the Sensor. And finally, as was noted in the game, there were a lot of killing roles which could have (and did) really harm the town. I specifically included a lot of potential killing roles in the hopes the numbers would dwindle down, as smaller games are more active games, but I thought the initial balance worked perfectly. Sometimes the balance is not only amongst the roles but in things like the mafia being helped by extra deaths with the town being helped by a 2-shot Sensor. Sensor is also NOT a provable role and one the mafia can/does easily fake. There are a lot of things to consider.

The second sensor negates the utility of the Yak.
That is my point, and cop already had a free confirmed DP1 pure result which affected the Yak.
I honestly thought Wylted was lying about being 2x, otherwise, we would have killed him instead of Mort.

We'll agree to disagree, and, perhaps, it would have been less of an issue, had there actually had been more than one lynch by DP4.
My work here is, finally, done.
Danielle
Posts: 21,330
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12/9/2014 9:46:16 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
Khaos - there were no protective roles. The mafia basically had a guaranteed NK every night. Well, AT LEAST one night kill every night. There was also a Babysitter, Judge and Vigilante to dwindle numbers down sooner. The town had no reason to believe Wylted's role claim or results anyway. Like I said, there are a lot of factors to consider. I do agree that the TP seems OP with Popular not listed as anything but Town, but again I feel like Survivor is a hard role to win otherwise. I hardly see anybody win it. And VelCrow didn't win it. If I had listed Popular as potential TP then it wouldn't have been OP at all.
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Khaos_Mage
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12/9/2014 9:49:14 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 12/9/2014 9:19:32 AM, mortsdor wrote:
At 12/9/2014 9:02:12 AM, Danielle wrote:
At 12/9/2014 7:09:18 AM, XLAV wrote:
MVPs?

Maikuru was the MVP. He was the most active, vocal and helpful mafioso. I'm surprised he lived as long as he did. Ative players who stay alive are usually auto suspect.

The town scum hunting (and night actions) in this game were horrible, but even so Maikuru played well as scum.

The first few DP's Maikuru was perfect...
I disagree. I was on to him ;)
the last 2 he was pretty scummy (not that that mattered)

And, as to night actions and scum hunting, there was pretty poor participation, not too much really went our way, and Khaos1's shenanigans confused the hell out of everyone regarding everything.
Yes, they did, and I should have been lynched DP2, then. Force my claim, which I wouldn't have given. I think DP2 is where town ultimately lost.
Further, by being scummy and tied to Bullish, I would assume the first three players on my wagon were not mafia, and be highly suspect of those that didn't push my lynch. If I said, "Hey, I'm negative liability, so let's lynch me" or "I have a powerful role", mafia may have opted to lynch me sooner.

The first couple DP's were a big bust for town, and after that it came down to mafia playing well.
The only thing that really shouldn't have happened after that was Rev getting lynched... Rather Endark probably should've been.

and My night actions I though were the best I could manage.

np1- none so as to conserve for when I had more to go off of

np2- Commuter so as to avoid any shenanigans, and but still conserve doc... Perhaps someone could suggest I should've doc'd TV and I guess that's right, but I usually tend to think mafia won't hit a claimed cop straightaway, and instead go after townies less in the spotlight.

np3- doc'd myself b/c I didn't have any strong reads and ensure that I'd be around to use Politician the next NP when chances would be good I'd have a better idea.
Mafia NK'd airmax.. but I had though Airmaxx was kind of questionable as vig b/c his reasons for NOT Nk'ing Khaos1 np1 sucked.

np4- politic

I think townies should usually be as straightforward as possible and not try to fool others into doing things.
Like reaction tests?

I think rather than trying to get a Vig to CC (which would've hurt the town), Khaos would've been better off saying that he's a townie with a Good role linked to Bullish, and that he suspects that Bullish is a Mafia with a good role.. and pressure bullish in a straightforward manner.

So, you wanted me to out DP1 that, by killing me, mafia gets two deaths, in the event that Bullish is town, and by losing, IMO, the most powerful role in the game? (well, maybe sensor is)

Also, I disagree.
Knowing a vig can be trusted and is not TP is very valuable.
Also, vig can hurt town tremendously.
Instead it caused confusion that ultimately led to wasting DP3 trying to get an Airmaxx lynch for having been confuzzled by khaos' play and responding poorly to it.
Then let me explain myself.
Vigging me made no sense, as whatever my role was, would have done it's thing before the shot. Hell, maybe I was bus driver trying to draw a shot...
My work here is, finally, done.