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Mafia Day Phase 1

Danielle
Posts: 21,330
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12/31/2014 10:10:15 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
Greetings my fellow Mafia players!

I wanted to get a discussion going on how to make Day Phase 1 more efficient.

In the past, it was possible (and in my case even probable - hehe) to find scum on Day Phase 1. However these days, aside from scum slips, almost all reads on DP1 are wrong and/or null. That's because the player pool has improved and people are a lot more experienced than when we first started playing. In addition, mods are minimizing the chance of scum slips (which I think is good and fair). In fact I support the mods giving the mafia hints in cases where thematic analysis and character assignments play more of a role in the game than people's play.

I remember looking back on DP1 of the past few games, and noticing that both my reads and other people's reads were completely off. Day Phase 1 is a lot of OMGUS voting because there's little to nothing to go on. After you pressure the n00bs and/or most erratic or confusing players, what do? The old SOP was to limit DP1 claims to 1/4 of the players max. That made sense. If say 4/16 people claimed and all seemed town or claimed decent roles, we would simply vote No Lynch without waiting for the Day Phase to expire. Now it's just constant back and forth. When is the last time people Voted No Lynch on DP1 instead of waiting for the time limit and to end looking like this:

VOTE COUNT
Wylted (Yama, Maikuru) -- 2/9 votes
Danielle (Khaos) -- 1/9 votes
Khaos (Wylted, Danielle) -- 2/9 votes
9space (ford) -- 1/9 votes
Esocial (bossy, F16) -- 2/9 votes
XLAV (Rev) -- 1/9 votes
Rev (XLAV) -- 1/9 votes
Endark (9space, Esocial) -- 2/9 votes

Wtf is the point of this? Voting for all different people accomplishes nothing and is anti-town. It wastes time, serves as a distraction and minimizes the number of claims we actually get. Obviously the mafia is going to try to lead pressure away from one of their own and target a townie - but so what? Even if 1/4 of the players claim and they're all town, that helps analysis going forward. Pressuring a townie early is not the end of the world; people shouldn't be so hesitant to do it. If you see someone has momentum and it's reasonable, just friggin vote for them for a claim OR make a really solid case for pressuring someone else instead. Not just OMGUS.

Claiming early does not distinguish but helps with credibility, and in other versions of Mafia, the town already knows what roles are in the game. If you've ever played on EpicMafia or other sites, the roles included in the game are listed and there's a small pool of players, so if a mafioso is pressured first, they have to lie and fake claim -- not hide among the multitude of people bickering and knowing they'll never actually get enough votes to warrant a claim.

Again this observation is based on the past few games I've played in; I've certainly missed a bunch. I just don't understand why people insist on splitting the vote count. If a few people have claimed and it's not going anywhere, vote No Lynch. Maybe decide ahead of time how many claims are worthwhile (it depends on the game) and then vote No Lynch. Otherwise it's just a bunch of random votes all over the place and it takes days to even get a single claim! Especially for the people who refuse to claim unless they're at L-1 (like Nymph) which I think is annoying and a massive waste of time. If it's clear you have momentum for pressure and you're at like L-3 or whatever, just claim bruh.

While I dislike games that start on NP1 instead of DP1 (because someone will die before the game even starts) in some ways I think it's better, as it gives the town something to talk about during the day. That way if someone is pressured, they don't just claim but can out results or explain their actions. This is the fun part of the game. On DP1, it's a lot of speculation and the town arguing amongst themselves about the pettiest nonsense. Also dying after one DP could be as lame as dying before the game starts, so I'm starting to wonder if we should encourage games starting in the NP... especially since we always need replacements anyway. Thoughts?

Ps. I wrote this instead of catching up on Star Wars mafia lol. I'm pissed that (because I'm obviously town duh) I now have to read through 700+ posts if I want to analyze sh!t and it's probably a bunch of bullsh!t. I'll do that this afternoon after my meeting.
President of DDO
RevNge
Posts: 13,835
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12/31/2014 10:39:34 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 12/31/2014 10:33:30 AM, XLAV wrote:
I didnt know I signed up for this.

Anyway,
VTL Rev

@Dani: I didnt get my role yet

I guess it's a quickfire game. I didn't get a role either, but I'm assuming I'm the Deathproofed Day-Vigging Double Voting Popular Dreaming God.

Vigs XLAV
ESocialBookworm
Posts: 14,368
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12/31/2014 10:40:07 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 12/31/2014 10:33:30 AM, XLAV wrote:
I didnt know I signed up for this.

Anyway,
VTL Rev

@Dani: I didnt get my role yet

ROFL
Solonkr~
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RevNge
Posts: 13,835
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12/31/2014 10:42:06 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
Vote Count:

Wylted (Yama, Maikuru) -- 2/9 votes
Danielle (Khaos) -- 1/9 votes
Khaos (Wylted, Danielle) -- 2/9 votes
9space (ford) -- 1/9 votes
Esocial (bossy, F16) -- 2/9 votes
Rev -- 0/99999999999999999 votes
Endark (9space, Esocial) -- 2/9 votes
KhaosMage
Posts: 1,475
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12/31/2014 10:45:14 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 12/31/2014 10:10:15 AM, Danielle wrote:
In many ways I agree, but I disagree in others.
How do you reconcile players like Lucky and Mikal who lament DP1, but then use it later in the game?
I do agree it is harder to find scum now than it used to be, but that is due to the caliber of players of late, or more to the point, the amount of effort they appear to put forth. But, that is more than just a DP1 issue.

Ps. I wrote this instead of catching up on Star Wars mafia lol. I'm pissed that (because I'm obviously town duh) I now have to read through 700+ posts if I want to analyze sh!t and it's probably a bunch of bullsh!t. I'll do that this afternoon after my meeting.

You and I both know that 100 of those posts are An Doc, and about 100 more are about complaining of An Doc.
RevNge
Posts: 13,835
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12/31/2014 10:46:15 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 12/31/2014 10:45:14 AM, KhaosMage wrote:
At 12/31/2014 10:10:15 AM, Danielle wrote:
In many ways I agree, but I disagree in others.
How do you reconcile players like Lucky and Mikal who lament DP1, but then use it later in the game?
I do agree it is harder to find scum now than it used to be, but that is due to the caliber of players of late, or more to the point, the amount of effort they appear to put forth. But, that is more than just a DP1 issue.

Ps. I wrote this instead of catching up on Star Wars mafia lol. I'm pissed that (because I'm obviously town duh) I now have to read through 700+ posts if I want to analyze sh!t and it's probably a bunch of bullsh!t. I'll do that this afternoon after my meeting.

You and I both know that 100 of those posts are An Doc, and about 100 more are about complaining of An Doc.

Are you playing or not?
KhaosMage
Posts: 1,475
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12/31/2014 10:56:50 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 12/31/2014 10:55:02 AM, AnDoctuir wrote:
The games are too big.

Another factor, but weren't there as big of games in the past with this not being a problem?
AnDoctuir
Posts: 11,060
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12/31/2014 11:04:34 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 12/31/2014 10:56:50 AM, KhaosMage wrote:
At 12/31/2014 10:55:02 AM, AnDoctuir wrote:
The games are too big.

Another factor, but weren't there as big of games in the past with this not being a problem?

Not really, no. --They were always a bit of a drag.
AnDoctuir
Posts: 11,060
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12/31/2014 11:07:10 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
Danielle used have an incredibly vicious and cutting way about her, lol. Snap you into line, you know?
AnDoctuir
Posts: 11,060
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12/31/2014 11:10:56 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
Oh, we used policy lynch, too, I suppose. ---which wasn't anything other than being a cunt.
Nymphomaniac
Posts: 665
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12/31/2014 11:16:07 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
I agree with you on a few points but disagree with your overall conclusion. I've lynched scum on D1 probably 4 times out of 5 in the past year, based solely on behavior (I was not that good when I started out). Xlav is another player who has awesome reads and can narrow down scum on D1. The trick is focusing on behaviors and process of elimination.

Claims aren't necessary until someone is at L-1 and about to be lynched. That keeps the focus on behaviors, which makes it easier to challenge scum (to fake reads based on behavior, which is hard to do consistently). I think the focus on claims makes it harder to start developing reads and find scum. I don't claim until L-1 for that reason. Unless I'm about to be lynched, I'd rather operate on the basis of behaviors and limit the mafia's effectiveness at night. Any decent mod gives the mafia fake-claims, and any decent scum can fake-claim without problem. There isn't much point to getting claims. The tradeoff (potential cc) isn't worth the risk (helping mafia win the game at night). Only certain claims really matter (like cop being town in most cases), but even that isn't reliable, and also we shouldn't out that information unless necessary. For example, you soft-claimed cop in that last game and were immediately killed, without communicating your results. Better to just voice a strong townread and not soft-claim at all. If you die at night, at least we know who your strongest reads were and can extrapolate from that.

Anyway, got sidetracked. Sorry. Basically, I think playing it like on mafiascum is quite effective, arguably more effective here, because getting townreads is easier and there's always at least one scum that's obvious on D1. I advocate not voting for claims until the end of the DP, after you know who you want to lynch. The most important thing is having active townies show up for the end of the DP, so that new wagons (in the case of a strong claim) can be developed.

I agree with you strongly on one point - consolidating pressure. You gotta build wagons to find the scum. Sometimes, voting to help create pressure is better than voting your top suspect. Anyway, that's what I think will make D1 more effective - focus on behavior, stop complaining about lack of information and create wagons that we can analyze. Create situations that scum will have difficulty playing (i.e. a behavior-heavy analysis which forces scum to fake lots if reads and become more self-conscious about their behavior)..
Fill all my holes, please.

http://www.debate.org...

: At 11/17/2014 9:30:55 AM, Wylted wrote:
: I killed Nymph because her reads were incredibly good. I thought it was a result of inside knowledge.
AnDoctuir
Posts: 11,060
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12/31/2014 11:44:37 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 12/31/2014 11:10:56 AM, AnDoctuir wrote:
Oh, we used policy lynch, too, I suppose. ---which wasn't anything other than being a cunt.

Everyone was perfectly happy piling onto some supposed 'idiot' so long as it wasn't themselves, or so it wouldn't be themselves --the 5 monkeys experiment, basically. I dunno - maybe you lot should just stop playing this game?
AnDoctuir
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12/31/2014 11:47:54 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 12/31/2014 11:44:37 AM, AnDoctuir wrote:
At 12/31/2014 11:10:56 AM, AnDoctuir wrote:
Oh, we used policy lynch, too, I suppose. ---which wasn't anything other than being a cunt.

Everyone was perfectly happy piling onto some supposed 'idiot' so long as it wasn't themselves, or so it wouldn't be themselves --the 5 monkeys experiment, basically. I dunno - maybe you lot should just stop playing this game?

Jesus, this game is actually bad. Forum mafia is equivalent to self-harm, in the words of the immortal PE (who none of you know, probably, lol).
F-16_Fighting_Falcon
Posts: 18,324
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12/31/2014 12:37:29 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
I agree that we should limit the size of DP1. I disagree with most other things you said and here's why:

1) No lynching: The lynch is town's best weapon. By not lynching, you give control to the scum as to who to eliminate. Scum will kill the towniest players/best power roles. Town will lynch the scummiest players (even if they are town). So, the more lynches happen, the better it is for town.

2) Claiming: I think mafia should focus on behavioral analysis primarily although this is just my opinion. Players should wait till L-1 to claim. It is definitely possible to catch scum with no claims at all. We don't NEED claims to analyze and you are well aware of this because most of your old games involved you catching scum purely out of how they acted. Claiming ought to be a last resort to supplement behavioral analysis. I see no reason to get 1/4 of the playerlist to unnecessarily claim on DP1.

3) On wagons: The most interesting thing I've noticed on DDO vs other sites like mafiascum is the lack of counterwagons here. Imagine if all the people voting all those separate people consolidated on not one but two or more players and then further compromised into two players they find scummiest, we might end up with a vote count like this:

Wylted (Yama, Maikuru, Khaos, Rev, 9space, Esocial) -- 6/9 votes
Khaos (Wylted, Danielle, ford, bossy, F16, XLAV) -- 6/9 votes

which leaves the remaining players to choose between the two wagons as deadline approaches. Our biggest problem generally is that we feel everyone should agree on a lynch and once we are agreed, that player should be lynched. We don't generally account for disagreements and choices on who to lynch. We never ever say "let's agree to disagree" and vote separate people. If we did, we would have a mountain of analysis based on how the wagons formed and fell apart. We have multiple wagons, yes. We never have multiple VIABLE wagons where people compromise and vote for the largest wagon they find scummy.

4) Night starts: I hate them for the same reason you do. Wouldn't like someone to be out of the game before they have a chance to post.

~~~

I actually want to elaborate on the parts I completely agree with you though:

I think analysis is better in later days because we have more information and more flips. If you spend DP1 posting and posting and posting, players will a) get burnt out, b) will not want to catch up on such large meaningless rubbish, c) will let early incorrect reads based on poor reasoning impact their later reads.

I think activity should increase as the days go on. Minimal activity D1 followed by a bit more D2 and so on. Because the more advanced the game is, the more insightful and better your reads will be. My DP1 reads in the games I've played haven't been fantastic. If I've ever played games well as town, it is because later on, I've been able to figure out the game as we had more info.

Deliberately holding back on posting early game to keep the mess to a minimum is a viable town strategy. It is also a good idea to consolidate your thoughts into a single or few posts rather than spam irrelevant nonsense the whole game long and turn it into a thirty page DP1.
AnDoctuir
Posts: 11,060
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12/31/2014 12:50:38 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
I kinda agree with the behavioural analysis bit, too, but then I don't really case. ---It certainly makes sense on a debate site that folks would be inclined towards in-depth studies of themes to go along with their manipulations. I'm more of a pure people person, though.
Nymphomaniac
Posts: 665
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12/31/2014 12:51:02 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 12/31/2014 12:37:29 PM, F-16_Fighting_Falcon wrote:
I agree that we should limit the size of DP1. I disagree with most other things you said and here's why:

1) No lynching: The lynch is town's best weapon. By not lynching, you give control to the scum as to who to eliminate. Scum will kill the towniest players/best power roles. Town will lynch the scummiest players (even if they are town). So, the more lynches happen, the better it is for town.

2) Claiming: I think mafia should focus on behavioral analysis primarily although this is just my opinion. Players should wait till L-1 to claim. It is definitely possible to catch scum with no claims at all. We don't NEED claims to analyze and you are well aware of this because most of your old games involved you catching scum purely out of how they acted. Claiming ought to be a last resort to supplement behavioral analysis. I see no reason to get 1/4 of the playerlist to unnecessarily claim on DP1.

3) On wagons: The most interesting thing I've noticed on DDO vs other sites like mafiascum is the lack of counterwagons here. Imagine if all the people voting all those separate people consolidated on not one but two or more players and then further compromised into two players they find scummiest, we might end up with a vote count like this:

Wylted (Yama, Maikuru, Khaos, Rev, 9space, Esocial) -- 6/9 votes
Khaos (Wylted, Danielle, ford, bossy, F16, XLAV) -- 6/9 votes

which leaves the remaining players to choose between the two wagons as deadline approaches. Our biggest problem generally is that we feel everyone should agree on a lynch and once we are agreed, that player should be lynched. We don't generally account for disagreements and choices on who to lynch. We never ever say "let's agree to disagree" and vote separate people. If we did, we would have a mountain of analysis based on how the wagons formed and fell apart. We have multiple wagons, yes. We never have multiple VIABLE wagons where people compromise and vote for the largest wagon they find scummy.

4) Night starts: I hate them for the same reason you do. Wouldn't like someone to be out of the game before they have a chance to post.

~~~

I actually want to elaborate on the parts I completely agree with you though:

I think analysis is better in later days because we have more information and more flips. If you spend DP1 posting and posting and posting, players will a) get burnt out, b) will not want to catch up on such large meaningless rubbish, c) will let early incorrect reads based on poor reasoning impact their later reads.

I think activity should increase as the days go on. Minimal activity D1 followed by a bit more D2 and so on. Because the more advanced the game is, the more insightful and better your reads will be. My DP1 reads in the games I've played haven't been fantastic. If I've ever played games well as town, it is because later on, I've been able to figure out the game as we had more info.

Deliberately holding back on posting early game to keep the mess to a minimum is a viable town strategy. It is also a good idea to consolidate your thoughts into a single or few posts rather than spam irrelevant nonsense the whole game long and turn it into a thirty page DP1.

Interesting point about holding back on D1. I like that idea, but would apply it more generally to the whole game. I've been leaning more and more towards concision - a vote and maybe 1-2 reasons for any given read. I think it really forces you to exercise judgment in deciding what's important and what isnt.

I think it'd be very interesting to have a game where you can only vote - no other comments. It'd boil mafia down to its essence. This ties in with your bit about wagons - seeing the decisions people make in situations like the one above. For example, in Boy Bands, I gave Rev the option of two lynches (one was on scum; the other on town; but I didn't know that). Rev was scum, so naturally he voted the townie. This was at the end if the DP in a similar situation. That kind of information gave Rev away after the two players flipped. I think we forget (at least I do too often) how much info votes alone have, and we focus too much on reasoning, etc. You saw it in the game we played on mafiascum too - we lynched honey, and the way the other mafia tried to build other wagons and then jumped on the lynch was pretty damning. I recall Fonz picking up on it right away the next DP which just showed how much value that kind of analysis has. All the other comments were just clutter and unnecessary.
Fill all my holes, please.

http://www.debate.org...

: At 11/17/2014 9:30:55 AM, Wylted wrote:
: I killed Nymph because her reads were incredibly good. I thought it was a result of inside knowledge.
Nymphomaniac
Posts: 665
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12/31/2014 12:54:55 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
Main reason against no lynching is also because you can't predict ahead-of-time if you'll get to MYLO or LYLO. If you no lynch and then end up at MYLO, you're down a potential game-winning mislynch. Better to lynch on D1, get what info you can from it to optimize N1 and D2 lynch, and avoid the risk of losing a mislynch down the road.
Fill all my holes, please.

http://www.debate.org...

: At 11/17/2014 9:30:55 AM, Wylted wrote:
: I killed Nymph because her reads were incredibly good. I thought it was a result of inside knowledge.
AnDoctuir
Posts: 11,060
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12/31/2014 1:03:29 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
What about trial voting to speed it up? Allow things to progress as normal until some certain point, then all votes are cleared, and there are two mock votes, say, to give people some idea of how things are lining up, then one real vote, all strictly timed (I realise this would cause problems, but perhaps they could be dispersed throughout the DP -- the two mock votes, that is; then have a crunch-time voting of ~6 hours or whatever).
AnDoctuir
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12/31/2014 1:05:38 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 12/31/2014 1:03:29 PM, AnDoctuir wrote:
What about trial voting to speed it up? Allow things to progress as normal until some certain point, then all votes are cleared, and there are two mock votes, say, to give people some idea of how things are lining up, then one real vote, all strictly timed (I realise this would cause problems, but perhaps they could be dispersed throughout the DP -- the two mock votes, that is; then have a crunch-time voting of ~6 hours or whatever).

This might also steal from the pressure of voting throughout the DP's, I suppose. Still, ... it would generate tells and speed things along to a sensible/actually coordinated end.
AnDoctuir
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12/31/2014 1:10:36 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
The trial votes might stir up activity, too, no? And all that nasty stuff would be avoided.

It's kind of either that, or limit game sizes.
F-16_Fighting_Falcon
Posts: 18,324
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12/31/2014 1:11:17 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 12/31/2014 12:54:55 PM, Nymphomaniac wrote:
Main reason against no lynching is also because you can't predict ahead-of-time if you'll get to MYLO or LYLO. If you no lynch and then end up at MYLO, you're down a potential game-winning mislynch. Better to lynch on D1, get what info you can from it to optimize N1 and D2 lynch, and avoid the risk of losing a mislynch down the road.
Agree with this. The dynamics are different on DDO vs mafiascum. On mafiscum, you start with an odd number of players, lynch everyday and the number remains odd (as long as there is no vig/Serial killer). On DDO, you want to guard against there resulting in an even number of players by lynching until MYLO when you no lynch. If you reach LYLO instead, then you know you have not wasted any DPs at all.
AnDoctuir
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12/31/2014 1:12:30 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
Or 3-4 claims, I suppose, which sucks. Trial voting would apply a different sort of pressure, too, which would allow people to try to hold onto their claims if they so wished.---Oooh, I really like my idea.
AnDoctuir
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12/31/2014 1:17:07 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
Majority hammers at ~6 hours. Split votes on any two players brings a NL?
Mafia could do something with that too. I dunno. ---There are kinks.
Danielle
Posts: 21,330
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1/1/2015 5:10:11 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 12/31/2014 10:45:14 AM, KhaosMage wrote:
How do you reconcile players like Lucky and Mikal who lament DP1, but then use it later in the game?

I've never played with either of them, so I'm not sure what you mean.

You and I both know that 100 of those posts are An Doc, and about 100 more are about complaining of An Doc.

True, I hadn't thought of that. And I still haven't read it. But I will even though this just reminded me why I don't wanna :/
President of DDO