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Vanilla's/Millers the best roles in the game?

TUF
Posts: 21,310
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2/5/2015 4:50:01 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
I know I have made this post before, but I am going to make it again because there is a new pool of players.

I know a lot of people complain about roles like vanilla, or miller and other passive roles. But I don"t think people truly understand the power of these roles. I am going to explain why I feel that these are probably the best roles in the game.

1.These roles are safe and provide longevity. You"ll always get a grumble or two from players about vanilla"s or millers being in a game. Generally people will talk about them being potentially fake, etc. But most of the time, a player won"t just be outright lynched (justifiably) for claiming these roles. These roles are especially safe from mafia. Mafia will generally try to target players with high-risk roles (IE investigative roles, vig"s, etc). An early miller claim is a potential mis-lynch, so you are as a miller, you are virtually un-killable. A vanilla, rolewise, provides no threat to mafia. If a player is given this role that the mafia interprets having a great skill level, they may kill the player. But realistically speaking, it doesn"t benefit scum too much to do this, as it is likely this player can just replace back in anyway with a stronger role, and it leaves them with having wasted a night kill on a vanilla/miller, rather than seeking out investigative roles. As the vanilla/miller, you get the satisfaction of knowing scum wasted a kill on you, which is itself, a win. This takes the pressure off of having to claim your role and character early on in the game, and makes scum hunting your sole responsibility.

2.Your job as a townie is easy, and pressure-less. You cannot be blamed for choosing poor targets with night actions, and can focus on behavioral reads all game. Investigative roles are kind of tricky. While they can be really powerful, they can also be very mis-leading. On DDO, players are very, very eager to trust investigating results. While sometimes implicating investigative results can prove very helpful to a town team, other times it can prove devastating and confusing. Cops results can be tampered by flavoring, framers, lawyers, redirectors. Tracker and watcher results can see things that make a player look guilty (IE someone visiting a player who died, conveniently the night mafia killed them). I"ve seen all of this happen. A vig being over eager about a read, and killing one of his own team mates. As a miller/vanilla, you don"t have to worry about any of this.

I feel it is important to make this thread, because I notice there is a general bad attitude about these roles, that I just can"t wrap my head around. This isn"t to call any one out, but just proving a point that if you like playing mafia, want to play longer, and want to be town confirmed, being one of these roles should be considered a blessing rather than a curse. I would love to get vanilla "Five times in a row", rather than use it as an excuse not to want to play in a game.

Anyways, I welcome any discussion, or differences of opinion. I"d love to hear alternate reasons. I know why people despite these roles. It"s fun to turn in night actions, and feel like your role is important, and that you can help your team with your role. I think the problem lies with the attitude that these roles aren"t important, or don"t help your team. If we can fix this general attitude about these type of roles, I think it would do wonders for increasing town"s chances of finding scum.
"I've got to go and grab a shirt" ~ Airmax1227
RevNge
Posts: 13,835
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2/5/2015 8:11:23 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 2/5/2015 8:10:15 AM, KhaosMage wrote:
At 2/5/2015 8:07:55 AM, RevNge wrote:
http://www.freeallimages.com...

You can shut up, as you don't even play when you have a role.

Actually, I do. It's just that I got Vanilla like five times in a row now, lol.
KhaosMage
Posts: 1,475
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2/5/2015 8:12:09 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 2/5/2015 8:11:23 AM, RevNge wrote:
At 2/5/2015 8:10:15 AM, KhaosMage wrote:
At 2/5/2015 8:07:55 AM, RevNge wrote:
http://www.freeallimages.com...

You can shut up, as you don't even play when you have a role.

Actually, I do. It's just that I got Vanilla like five times in a row now, lol.

Then explain my mega man game. And, as mafia, you didn't play until you had to.
The-Voice-of-Truth
Posts: 6,573
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2/5/2015 9:21:16 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 2/5/2015 4:50:01 AM, TUF wrote:
I know I have made this post before, but I am going to make it again because there is a new pool of players.

I know a lot of people complain about roles like vanilla, or miller and other passive roles. But I don"t think people truly understand the power of these roles. I am going to explain why I feel that these are probably the best roles in the game.

1.These roles are safe and provide longevity. You"ll always get a grumble or two from players about vanilla"s or millers being in a game. Generally people will talk about them being potentially fake, etc. But most of the time, a player won"t just be outright lynched (justifiably) for claiming these roles. These roles are especially safe from mafia. Mafia will generally try to target players with high-risk roles (IE investigative roles, vig"s, etc). An early miller claim is a potential mis-lynch, so you are as a miller, you are virtually un-killable. A vanilla, rolewise, provides no threat to mafia. If a player is given this role that the mafia interprets having a great skill level, they may kill the player. But realistically speaking, it doesn"t benefit scum too much to do this, as it is likely this player can just replace back in anyway with a stronger role, and it leaves them with having wasted a night kill on a vanilla/miller, rather than seeking out investigative roles. As the vanilla/miller, you get the satisfaction of knowing scum wasted a kill on you, which is itself, a win. This takes the pressure off of having to claim your role and character early on in the game, and makes scum hunting your sole responsibility.

2.Your job as a townie is easy, and pressure-less. You cannot be blamed for choosing poor targets with night actions, and can focus on behavioral reads all game. Investigative roles are kind of tricky. While they can be really powerful, they can also be very mis-leading. On DDO, players are very, very eager to trust investigating results. While sometimes implicating investigative results can prove very helpful to a town team, other times it can prove devastating and confusing. Cops results can be tampered by flavoring, framers, lawyers, redirectors. Tracker and watcher results can see things that make a player look guilty (IE someone visiting a player who died, conveniently the night mafia killed them). I"ve seen all of this happen. A vig being over eager about a read, and killing one of his own team mates. As a miller/vanilla, you don"t have to worry about any of this.

I feel it is important to make this thread, because I notice there is a general bad attitude about these roles, that I just can"t wrap my head around. This isn"t to call any one out, but just proving a point that if you like playing mafia, want to play longer, and want to be town confirmed, being one of these roles should be considered a blessing rather than a curse. I would love to get vanilla "Five times in a row", rather than use it as an excuse not to want to play in a game.

Anyways, I welcome any discussion, or differences of opinion. I"d love to hear alternate reasons. I know why people despite these roles. It"s fun to turn in night actions, and feel like your role is important, and that you can help your team with your role. I think the problem lies with the attitude that these roles aren"t important, or don"t help your team. If we can fix this general attitude about these type of roles, I think it would do wonders for increasing town"s chances of finding scum.

I understand where you are coming from, but my first exposure to Vanilla did that role in for me; I absolutely hate the role. There was (and still is, the game is still going on) a Beginners Mafia game where all townies were Vanilla; HUGE MISTAKE. But this was eventually fixed, of course.
Suh dude

"Because we all know who the most important snowflake in the wasteland is... It's YOU, champ! You're a special snowflake." -Vaarka, 01:30 in the hangouts

"Screw laying siege to Korea. That usually takes an hour or so." -Vaarka

"Crap, what is my religion again?" -Vaarka

I'm Rick Harrison and this is my pawn shop. I work here with my old man and my son, Big Hoss, and in 23 years I've learned one thing. You never know what is gonna come through that door.
Zaradi
Posts: 14,127
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2/5/2015 9:59:36 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 2/5/2015 9:21:16 AM, The-Voice-of-Truth wrote:
There was (and still is, the game is still going on) a Beginners Mafia game where all townies were Vanilla; HUGE MISTAKE.

1. Why?
2. Wanna debate this?
Want to debate? Pick a topic and hit me up! - http://www.debate.org...
RevNge
Posts: 13,835
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2/5/2015 10:05:08 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 2/5/2015 9:08:06 AM, Zaradi wrote:
At 2/5/2015 8:07:55 AM, RevNge wrote:
http://www.freeallimages.com...

Way to engage the OP...

Thread derailment ftw.
RevNge
Posts: 13,835
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2/5/2015 10:06:56 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 2/5/2015 8:12:09 AM, KhaosMage wrote:
At 2/5/2015 8:11:23 AM, RevNge wrote:
At 2/5/2015 8:10:15 AM, KhaosMage wrote:
At 2/5/2015 8:07:55 AM, RevNge wrote:
http://www.freeallimages.com...

You can shut up, as you don't even play when you have a role.

Actually, I do. It's just that I got Vanilla like five times in a row now, lol.

Then explain my mega man game. And, as mafia, you didn't play until you had to.

But I still play. ;D

I know, I know, I'm sorry. IRL issues hit me hard recently.
The-Voice-of-Truth
Posts: 6,573
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2/5/2015 10:08:00 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 2/5/2015 9:59:36 AM, Zaradi wrote:
At 2/5/2015 9:21:16 AM, The-Voice-of-Truth wrote:
There was (and still is, the game is still going on) a Beginners Mafia game where all townies were Vanilla; HUGE MISTAKE.

1. Why?
2. Wanna debate this?

1. It was a test game-type. I can't remember who thought of it, I will need to go look at DP1, but it was a bad idea. No one was able to get any information from anybody on who to lynch, as we had no investigative roles. All we could do was random lynch or VTNL.

2. Do you mean something like "On Balance, All-Vanilla Mafia Game-Types are a Bad Idea" or something more like "In Mafia, Vanilla is A Bad Role"?
Suh dude

"Because we all know who the most important snowflake in the wasteland is... It's YOU, champ! You're a special snowflake." -Vaarka, 01:30 in the hangouts

"Screw laying siege to Korea. That usually takes an hour or so." -Vaarka

"Crap, what is my religion again?" -Vaarka

I'm Rick Harrison and this is my pawn shop. I work here with my old man and my son, Big Hoss, and in 23 years I've learned one thing. You never know what is gonna come through that door.
The-Voice-of-Truth
Posts: 6,573
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2/5/2015 10:09:52 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 2/5/2015 10:08:00 AM, The-Voice-of-Truth wrote:
At 2/5/2015 9:59:36 AM, Zaradi wrote:
At 2/5/2015 9:21:16 AM, The-Voice-of-Truth wrote:
There was (and still is, the game is still going on) a Beginners Mafia game where all townies were Vanilla; HUGE MISTAKE.

1. Why?
2. Wanna debate this?

1. It was a test game-type. I can't remember who thought of it, I will need to go look at DP1, but it was a bad idea. No one was able to get any information from anybody on who to lynch, as we had no investigative roles. All we could do was random lynch or VTNL.

2. Do you mean something like "On Balance, All-Vanilla Mafia Game-Types are a Bad Idea" or something more like "In Mafia, Vanilla is A Bad Role"?

It is not that I think Vanilla is a bad role overall, it is that I just don't like it.
Suh dude

"Because we all know who the most important snowflake in the wasteland is... It's YOU, champ! You're a special snowflake." -Vaarka, 01:30 in the hangouts

"Screw laying siege to Korea. That usually takes an hour or so." -Vaarka

"Crap, what is my religion again?" -Vaarka

I'm Rick Harrison and this is my pawn shop. I work here with my old man and my son, Big Hoss, and in 23 years I've learned one thing. You never know what is gonna come through that door.
KhaosMage
Posts: 1,475
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2/5/2015 10:12:11 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 2/5/2015 10:08:00 AM, The-Voice-of-Truth wrote:
At 2/5/2015 9:59:36 AM, Zaradi wrote:
At 2/5/2015 9:21:16 AM, The-Voice-of-Truth wrote:
There was (and still is, the game is still going on) a Beginners Mafia game where all townies were Vanilla; HUGE MISTAKE.

1. Why?
2. Wanna debate this?

1. It was a test game-type. I can't remember who thought of it, I will need to go look at DP1, but it was a bad idea. No one was able to get any information from anybody on who to lynch, as we had no investigative roles. All we could do was random lynch or VTNL.
Beginner series used to always have a game with very few roles under Drafterman.
It worked fine then.
And, that's not "all you could do", and that is exactly why this was tried to be re-introduced, because people need to learn how to play the game.
KhaosMage
Posts: 1,475
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2/5/2015 10:15:15 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 2/5/2015 10:06:56 AM, RevNge wrote:
At 2/5/2015 8:12:09 AM, KhaosMage wrote:
At 2/5/2015 8:11:23 AM, RevNge wrote:
At 2/5/2015 8:10:15 AM, KhaosMage wrote:
At 2/5/2015 8:07:55 AM, RevNge wrote:
http://www.freeallimages.com...

You can shut up, as you don't even play when you have a role.

Actually, I do. It's just that I got Vanilla like five times in a row now, lol.

Then explain my mega man game. And, as mafia, you didn't play until you had to.

But I still play. ;D
Should I go count your posts?

I know, I know, I'm sorry. IRL issues hit me hard recently.
That sucks, but it doesn't aid your case, as in seven games, you've been largely inactive and useless. Plus, you know, you could have replaced out.
Also, what game were you tracker in and hammered yourself? You didn't do much that game either in terms of play.
In fact, you misread your results and barely defended yourself.
That's not playing.
The-Voice-of-Truth
Posts: 6,573
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2/5/2015 10:16:39 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 2/5/2015 10:12:11 AM, KhaosMage wrote:
At 2/5/2015 10:08:00 AM, The-Voice-of-Truth wrote:
At 2/5/2015 9:59:36 AM, Zaradi wrote:
At 2/5/2015 9:21:16 AM, The-Voice-of-Truth wrote:
There was (and still is, the game is still going on) a Beginners Mafia game where all townies were Vanilla; HUGE MISTAKE.

1. Why?
2. Wanna debate this?

1. It was a test game-type. I can't remember who thought of it, I will need to go look at DP1, but it was a bad idea. No one was able to get any information from anybody on who to lynch, as we had no investigative roles. All we could do was random lynch or VTNL.
Beginner series used to always have a game with very few roles under Drafterman.
It worked fine then.
And, that's not "all you could do", and that is exactly why this was tried to be re-introduced, because people need to learn how to play the game.

Actually, no. It was all we could do. I was trying to draw conclusions based off of what others were saying, but no one was giving even the slightest hint of being scummy, except for maybe Medic, but we did not have enough to go on anyway. Plus, there was a lot of inactivity. We finally got roles, and then the game started moving along.
Suh dude

"Because we all know who the most important snowflake in the wasteland is... It's YOU, champ! You're a special snowflake." -Vaarka, 01:30 in the hangouts

"Screw laying siege to Korea. That usually takes an hour or so." -Vaarka

"Crap, what is my religion again?" -Vaarka

I'm Rick Harrison and this is my pawn shop. I work here with my old man and my son, Big Hoss, and in 23 years I've learned one thing. You never know what is gonna come through that door.
KhaosMage
Posts: 1,475
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2/5/2015 10:19:36 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 2/5/2015 10:16:39 AM, The-Voice-of-Truth wrote:
At 2/5/2015 10:12:11 AM, KhaosMage wrote:
At 2/5/2015 10:08:00 AM, The-Voice-of-Truth wrote:
At 2/5/2015 9:59:36 AM, Zaradi wrote:
At 2/5/2015 9:21:16 AM, The-Voice-of-Truth wrote:
There was (and still is, the game is still going on) a Beginners Mafia game where all townies were Vanilla; HUGE MISTAKE.

1. Why?
2. Wanna debate this?

1. It was a test game-type. I can't remember who thought of it, I will need to go look at DP1, but it was a bad idea. No one was able to get any information from anybody on who to lynch, as we had no investigative roles. All we could do was random lynch or VTNL.
Beginner series used to always have a game with very few roles under Drafterman.
It worked fine then.
And, that's not "all you could do", and that is exactly why this was tried to be re-introduced, because people need to learn how to play the game.

Actually, no. It was all we could do. I was trying to draw conclusions based off of what others were saying, but no one was giving even the slightest hint of being scummy, except for maybe Medic, but we did not have enough to go on anyway. Plus, there was a lot of inactivity. We finally got roles, and then the game started moving along.

The inactivity hurts, but that is exactly the issue.
You can analyze behavior, analyze lynches, and, yes, randomly vote to get things started. The fact that people aren't playing the game, but using their roles, is the problem. Why post, if I can just cop someone and blindly believe that result?
EndarkenedRationalist
Posts: 14,201
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2/5/2015 10:23:23 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 2/5/2015 10:19:36 AM, KhaosMage wrote:
At 2/5/2015 10:16:39 AM, The-Voice-of-Truth wrote:
At 2/5/2015 10:12:11 AM, KhaosMage wrote:
At 2/5/2015 10:08:00 AM, The-Voice-of-Truth wrote:
At 2/5/2015 9:59:36 AM, Zaradi wrote:
At 2/5/2015 9:21:16 AM, The-Voice-of-Truth wrote:
There was (and still is, the game is still going on) a Beginners Mafia game where all townies were Vanilla; HUGE MISTAKE.

1. Why?
2. Wanna debate this?

1. It was a test game-type. I can't remember who thought of it, I will need to go look at DP1, but it was a bad idea. No one was able to get any information from anybody on who to lynch, as we had no investigative roles. All we could do was random lynch or VTNL.
Beginner series used to always have a game with very few roles under Drafterman.
It worked fine then.
And, that's not "all you could do", and that is exactly why this was tried to be re-introduced, because people need to learn how to play the game.

Actually, no. It was all we could do. I was trying to draw conclusions based off of what others were saying, but no one was giving even the slightest hint of being scummy, except for maybe Medic, but we did not have enough to go on anyway. Plus, there was a lot of inactivity. We finally got roles, and then the game started moving along.

The inactivity hurts, but that is exactly the issue.
You can analyze behavior, analyze lynches, and, yes, randomly vote to get things started. The fact that people aren't playing the game, but using their roles, is the problem. Why post, if I can just cop someone and blindly believe that result?

I think it should be done in reverse - that players should use roles and such BEFORE being thrown into an all vanilla/goon setup. They should get some experience as to who is scum and what tells they gave before being forced to try and find them on their own, without the assistance of roles/theme/etc.
EndarkenedRationalist
Posts: 14,201
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2/5/2015 10:25:33 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 2/5/2015 10:19:36 AM, KhaosMage wrote:
At 2/5/2015 10:16:39 AM, The-Voice-of-Truth wrote:
At 2/5/2015 10:12:11 AM, KhaosMage wrote:
At 2/5/2015 10:08:00 AM, The-Voice-of-Truth wrote:
At 2/5/2015 9:59:36 AM, Zaradi wrote:
At 2/5/2015 9:21:16 AM, The-Voice-of-Truth wrote:
There was (and still is, the game is still going on) a Beginners Mafia game where all townies were Vanilla; HUGE MISTAKE.

1. Why?
2. Wanna debate this?

1. It was a test game-type. I can't remember who thought of it, I will need to go look at DP1, but it was a bad idea. No one was able to get any information from anybody on who to lynch, as we had no investigative roles. All we could do was random lynch or VTNL.
Beginner series used to always have a game with very few roles under Drafterman.
It worked fine then.
And, that's not "all you could do", and that is exactly why this was tried to be re-introduced, because people need to learn how to play the game.

Actually, no. It was all we could do. I was trying to draw conclusions based off of what others were saying, but no one was giving even the slightest hint of being scummy, except for maybe Medic, but we did not have enough to go on anyway. Plus, there was a lot of inactivity. We finally got roles, and then the game started moving along.

The inactivity hurts, but that is exactly the issue.
You can analyze behavior, analyze lynches, and, yes, randomly vote to get things started. The fact that people aren't playing the game, but using their roles, is the problem. Why post, if I can just cop someone and blindly believe that result?

On an unrelated note, screw you for implying I was a bad player in DP5 of Bartimaeus mafia.
Zaradi
Posts: 14,127
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2/5/2015 10:26:58 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 2/5/2015 10:08:00 AM, The-Voice-of-Truth wrote:
At 2/5/2015 9:59:36 AM, Zaradi wrote:
At 2/5/2015 9:21:16 AM, The-Voice-of-Truth wrote:
There was (and still is, the game is still going on) a Beginners Mafia game where all townies were Vanilla; HUGE MISTAKE.

1. Why?
2. Wanna debate this?

1. It was a test game-type. I can't remember who thought of it, I will need to go look at DP1, but it was a bad idea. No one was able to get any information from anybody on who to lynch, as we had no investigative roles. All we could do was random lynch or VTNL.

Which is a common misconception which, I believe, the game mode attempts to dissuade from people from the very get go: that, while roles provide can and do provide town with useful information, that it's not the only thing to go off of in terms of developing reads and deciding on lynches, and actually shouldn't even be the primary form of information gathering. Role information and results should really, ideally, only be used as supplementary evidence to support behavioral reads. After all, if you're trying to lynch someone solely off of a guilty, what's to say that the cop wasn't flavored, or there isn't a framer in the game? Behavioral analysis can show you that the player is behaving suspiciously and doing things that would indicate that they might be scum. That alone is sufficient reason for pressure, possibly a lynch, which just makes the cop results a justification to your previously held beliefs.

A common activity on mafiascum is to start day phases off with two things: random voting stages and questions on player preferences. Random voting stages accomplishes two things: first, it gets people active and interested in how the game is going, who is voting for who to start off with and gives us things to analyze (Why's he voting for me? He says I have bad breath? How does he know my breath smells bad?) and, while not ideal in and by itself, functions as a gateway to creating and forming behavioral analysis. Second, it forms bandwagons for us to analyze. With so many people in the game, the odds of people voting for the same person is fairly likely, especially considering that votes are being slung around "randomly" (I say in quotes because it's never truly random, even if they say it is). Which players vote for which person and in what order is actually useful information that we can use to analyze affiliation. For example, if someone is hesitant of joining a bandwagon until it's later stages, and the person lynched flips up as scum, it casts suspicion on the person hesitant to join because that person could have been his scum buddy not wanting to lynch his partner unless he absolutely had to.

There's plenty of things to analyze in an all-vanilla game during the first day phase which don't require roles.

After day phase one, of course, you have night kills to analyze, looking at past interactions between players involving or about the person who was night killed, and that gives you other places to start with behavioral reads.

Like, saying that without roles you don't have any information is just naive.

2. Do you mean something like "On Balance, All-Vanilla Mafia Game-Types are a Bad Idea" or something more like "In Mafia, Vanilla is A Bad Role"?

Either or.
Want to debate? Pick a topic and hit me up! - http://www.debate.org...
KhaosMage
Posts: 1,475
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2/5/2015 10:27:45 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 2/5/2015 10:25:33 AM, EndarkenedRationalist wrote:
At 2/5/2015 10:19:36 AM, KhaosMage wrote:
At 2/5/2015 10:16:39 AM, The-Voice-of-Truth wrote:
At 2/5/2015 10:12:11 AM, KhaosMage wrote:
At 2/5/2015 10:08:00 AM, The-Voice-of-Truth wrote:
At 2/5/2015 9:59:36 AM, Zaradi wrote:
At 2/5/2015 9:21:16 AM, The-Voice-of-Truth wrote:
There was (and still is, the game is still going on) a Beginners Mafia game where all townies were Vanilla; HUGE MISTAKE.

1. Why?
2. Wanna debate this?

1. It was a test game-type. I can't remember who thought of it, I will need to go look at DP1, but it was a bad idea. No one was able to get any information from anybody on who to lynch, as we had no investigative roles. All we could do was random lynch or VTNL.
Beginner series used to always have a game with very few roles under Drafterman.
It worked fine then.
And, that's not "all you could do", and that is exactly why this was tried to be re-introduced, because people need to learn how to play the game.

Actually, no. It was all we could do. I was trying to draw conclusions based off of what others were saying, but no one was giving even the slightest hint of being scummy, except for maybe Medic, but we did not have enough to go on anyway. Plus, there was a lot of inactivity. We finally got roles, and then the game started moving along.

The inactivity hurts, but that is exactly the issue.
You can analyze behavior, analyze lynches, and, yes, randomly vote to get things started. The fact that people aren't playing the game, but using their roles, is the problem. Why post, if I can just cop someone and blindly believe that result?

On an unrelated note, screw you for implying I was a bad player in DP5 of Bartimaeus mafia.
That's an endgame issue, friend.
Zaradi
Posts: 14,127
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2/5/2015 10:29:11 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 2/5/2015 10:23:23 AM, EndarkenedRationalist wrote:
At 2/5/2015 10:19:36 AM, KhaosMage wrote:
At 2/5/2015 10:16:39 AM, The-Voice-of-Truth wrote:
At 2/5/2015 10:12:11 AM, KhaosMage wrote:
At 2/5/2015 10:08:00 AM, The-Voice-of-Truth wrote:
At 2/5/2015 9:59:36 AM, Zaradi wrote:
At 2/5/2015 9:21:16 AM, The-Voice-of-Truth wrote:
There was (and still is, the game is still going on) a Beginners Mafia game where all townies were Vanilla; HUGE MISTAKE.

1. Why?
2. Wanna debate this?

1. It was a test game-type. I can't remember who thought of it, I will need to go look at DP1, but it was a bad idea. No one was able to get any information from anybody on who to lynch, as we had no investigative roles. All we could do was random lynch or VTNL.
Beginner series used to always have a game with very few roles under Drafterman.
It worked fine then.
And, that's not "all you could do", and that is exactly why this was tried to be re-introduced, because people need to learn how to play the game.

Actually, no. It was all we could do. I was trying to draw conclusions based off of what others were saying, but no one was giving even the slightest hint of being scummy, except for maybe Medic, but we did not have enough to go on anyway. Plus, there was a lot of inactivity. We finally got roles, and then the game started moving along.

The inactivity hurts, but that is exactly the issue.
You can analyze behavior, analyze lynches, and, yes, randomly vote to get things started. The fact that people aren't playing the game, but using their roles, is the problem. Why post, if I can just cop someone and blindly believe that result?

I think it should be done in reverse - that players should use roles and such BEFORE being thrown into an all vanilla/goon setup. They should get some experience as to who is scum and what tells they gave before being forced to try and find them on their own, without the assistance of roles/theme/etc.

This just teaches newer players to rely on roles to get information, which shouldn't be something we teach them. Rather we should be teaching them to analyze other people's behaviors and interactions with other people and to use that to gather information.
Want to debate? Pick a topic and hit me up! - http://www.debate.org...
EndarkenedRationalist
Posts: 14,201
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2/5/2015 10:31:26 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 2/5/2015 10:29:11 AM, Zaradi wrote:
At 2/5/2015 10:23:23 AM, EndarkenedRationalist wrote:
At 2/5/2015 10:19:36 AM, KhaosMage wrote:
At 2/5/2015 10:16:39 AM, The-Voice-of-Truth wrote:
At 2/5/2015 10:12:11 AM, KhaosMage wrote:
At 2/5/2015 10:08:00 AM, The-Voice-of-Truth wrote:
At 2/5/2015 9:59:36 AM, Zaradi wrote:
At 2/5/2015 9:21:16 AM, The-Voice-of-Truth wrote:
There was (and still is, the game is still going on) a Beginners Mafia game where all townies were Vanilla; HUGE MISTAKE.

1. Why?
2. Wanna debate this?

1. It was a test game-type. I can't remember who thought of it, I will need to go look at DP1, but it was a bad idea. No one was able to get any information from anybody on who to lynch, as we had no investigative roles. All we could do was random lynch or VTNL.
Beginner series used to always have a game with very few roles under Drafterman.
It worked fine then.
And, that's not "all you could do", and that is exactly why this was tried to be re-introduced, because people need to learn how to play the game.

Actually, no. It was all we could do. I was trying to draw conclusions based off of what others were saying, but no one was giving even the slightest hint of being scummy, except for maybe Medic, but we did not have enough to go on anyway. Plus, there was a lot of inactivity. We finally got roles, and then the game started moving along.

The inactivity hurts, but that is exactly the issue.
You can analyze behavior, analyze lynches, and, yes, randomly vote to get things started. The fact that people aren't playing the game, but using their roles, is the problem. Why post, if I can just cop someone and blindly believe that result?

I think it should be done in reverse - that players should use roles and such BEFORE being thrown into an all vanilla/goon setup. They should get some experience as to who is scum and what tells they gave before being forced to try and find them on their own, without the assistance of roles/theme/etc.

This just teaches newer players to rely on roles to get information, which shouldn't be something we teach them. Rather we should be teaching them to analyze other people's behaviors and interactions with other people and to use that to gather information.

At the endgame of such setups, players can go back and see what giveaways scum players made before being found. That'll help them have some experience with noting those behaviors before they have to find them without the help of roles. It's a rare person who can not only distinguish town motivations from scum one straightaway but can also distinguish scummy town from scum.
EndarkenedRationalist
Posts: 14,201
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2/5/2015 10:31:49 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 2/5/2015 10:27:45 AM, KhaosMage wrote:
At 2/5/2015 10:25:33 AM, EndarkenedRationalist wrote:
At 2/5/2015 10:19:36 AM, KhaosMage wrote:
At 2/5/2015 10:16:39 AM, The-Voice-of-Truth wrote:
At 2/5/2015 10:12:11 AM, KhaosMage wrote:
At 2/5/2015 10:08:00 AM, The-Voice-of-Truth wrote:
At 2/5/2015 9:59:36 AM, Zaradi wrote:
At 2/5/2015 9:21:16 AM, The-Voice-of-Truth wrote:
There was (and still is, the game is still going on) a Beginners Mafia game where all townies were Vanilla; HUGE MISTAKE.

1. Why?
2. Wanna debate this?

1. It was a test game-type. I can't remember who thought of it, I will need to go look at DP1, but it was a bad idea. No one was able to get any information from anybody on who to lynch, as we had no investigative roles. All we could do was random lynch or VTNL.
Beginner series used to always have a game with very few roles under Drafterman.
It worked fine then.
And, that's not "all you could do", and that is exactly why this was tried to be re-introduced, because people need to learn how to play the game.

Actually, no. It was all we could do. I was trying to draw conclusions based off of what others were saying, but no one was giving even the slightest hint of being scummy, except for maybe Medic, but we did not have enough to go on anyway. Plus, there was a lot of inactivity. We finally got roles, and then the game started moving along.

The inactivity hurts, but that is exactly the issue.
You can analyze behavior, analyze lynches, and, yes, randomly vote to get things started. The fact that people aren't playing the game, but using their roles, is the problem. Why post, if I can just cop someone and blindly believe that result?

On an unrelated note, screw you for implying I was a bad player in DP5 of Bartimaeus mafia.
That's an endgame issue, friend.

I'll hold you to that.
KhaosMage
Posts: 1,475
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2/5/2015 10:33:49 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 2/5/2015 10:23:23 AM, EndarkenedRationalist wrote:

I think it should be done in reverse - that players should use roles and such BEFORE being thrown into an all vanilla/goon setup. They should get some experience as to who is scum and what tells they gave before being forced to try and find them on their own, without the assistance of roles/theme/etc.

I disagree.
Being mafia in the first game of the series is daunting for noobs, since there is so much stuff going on. Fake claims, roles, NKs. For town, they, too, have other things to deal with that can cause confusion, what is an NP, what does visit mean, what is a role?
A very basic setup is ideal for noobs to learn the flow and structure of the game, how to vote, how to play, and knowing what the hell is going on. They learn a foundation of the game FIRST, and hopefully learn from doing, especially if they are engaged in an endgame discussion.
Adding roles in the next games makes it less daunting, since now the game is understood how to play, so the second game is about using roles wisely, not learn to play the game as well.
Zaradi
Posts: 14,127
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2/5/2015 10:35:33 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 2/5/2015 10:31:26 AM, EndarkenedRationalist wrote:
At 2/5/2015 10:29:11 AM, Zaradi wrote:
At 2/5/2015 10:23:23 AM, EndarkenedRationalist wrote:
At 2/5/2015 10:19:36 AM, KhaosMage wrote:
At 2/5/2015 10:16:39 AM, The-Voice-of-Truth wrote:
At 2/5/2015 10:12:11 AM, KhaosMage wrote:
At 2/5/2015 10:08:00 AM, The-Voice-of-Truth wrote:
At 2/5/2015 9:59:36 AM, Zaradi wrote:
At 2/5/2015 9:21:16 AM, The-Voice-of-Truth wrote:
There was (and still is, the game is still going on) a Beginners Mafia game where all townies were Vanilla; HUGE MISTAKE.

1. Why?
2. Wanna debate this?

1. It was a test game-type. I can't remember who thought of it, I will need to go look at DP1, but it was a bad idea. No one was able to get any information from anybody on who to lynch, as we had no investigative roles. All we could do was random lynch or VTNL.
Beginner series used to always have a game with very few roles under Drafterman.
It worked fine then.
And, that's not "all you could do", and that is exactly why this was tried to be re-introduced, because people need to learn how to play the game.

Actually, no. It was all we could do. I was trying to draw conclusions based off of what others were saying, but no one was giving even the slightest hint of being scummy, except for maybe Medic, but we did not have enough to go on anyway. Plus, there was a lot of inactivity. We finally got roles, and then the game started moving along.

The inactivity hurts, but that is exactly the issue.
You can analyze behavior, analyze lynches, and, yes, randomly vote to get things started. The fact that people aren't playing the game, but using their roles, is the problem. Why post, if I can just cop someone and blindly believe that result?

I think it should be done in reverse - that players should use roles and such BEFORE being thrown into an all vanilla/goon setup. They should get some experience as to who is scum and what tells they gave before being forced to try and find them on their own, without the assistance of roles/theme/etc.

This just teaches newer players to rely on roles to get information, which shouldn't be something we teach them. Rather we should be teaching them to analyze other people's behaviors and interactions with other people and to use that to gather information.

At the endgame of such setups, players can go back and see what giveaways scum players made before being found. That'll help them have some experience with noting those behaviors before they have to find them without the help of roles. It's a rare person who can not only distinguish town motivations from scum one straightaway but can also distinguish scummy town from scum.

1. They can do that in an all-vanilla game too.

2. No one is going to really do this anyway, especially if they were relying on results to determine who to lynch and who not to lynch.

3. The best way, arguably, to teach people how to spot behavior that is indicative of being scum and how to distinguish scummy town from genuine scum is in the game while it's occurring. Hind-sight is only so good and we need to be able to understand our exact thought process at the time and why we believed the post was town/scum and why, in reality, the post was town/null/scum and what general indicators there were in the post or in the game overall to reach that conclusion. After the game, it matters less and people will draw less from it: the game's already over, after all.
Want to debate? Pick a topic and hit me up! - http://www.debate.org...
EndarkenedRationalist
Posts: 14,201
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2/5/2015 10:37:21 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 2/5/2015 10:33:49 AM, KhaosMage wrote:
At 2/5/2015 10:23:23 AM, EndarkenedRationalist wrote:

I think it should be done in reverse - that players should use roles and such BEFORE being thrown into an all vanilla/goon setup. They should get some experience as to who is scum and what tells they gave before being forced to try and find them on their own, without the assistance of roles/theme/etc.

I disagree.
Being mafia in the first game of the series is daunting for noobs, since there is so much stuff going on. Fake claims, roles, NKs. For town, they, too, have other things to deal with that can cause confusion, what is an NP, what does visit mean, what is a role?

Well, the first game certainly shouldn't be thematic. But a setup with a basic list of roles (cop, doctor, vanilla, goon, godfather) seems functional. Like the way the Beginner's series worked before, only with adding the all vanilla game at the end.

A very basic setup is ideal for noobs to learn the flow and structure of the game, how to vote, how to play, and knowing what the hell is going on. They learn a foundation of the game FIRST, and hopefully learn from doing, especially if they are engaged in an endgame discussion.

They did this under the old system too.

Adding roles in the next games makes it less daunting, since now the game is understood how to play, so the second game is about using roles wisely, not learn to play the game as well.

Sure. But behavioral analysis is the heart of mafia, not the basics.
The-Voice-of-Truth
Posts: 6,573
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2/5/2015 10:37:23 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 2/5/2015 10:29:11 AM, Zaradi wrote:
At 2/5/2015 10:23:23 AM, EndarkenedRationalist wrote:
At 2/5/2015 10:19:36 AM, KhaosMage wrote:
At 2/5/2015 10:16:39 AM, The-Voice-of-Truth wrote:
At 2/5/2015 10:12:11 AM, KhaosMage wrote:
At 2/5/2015 10:08:00 AM, The-Voice-of-Truth wrote:
At 2/5/2015 9:59:36 AM, Zaradi wrote:
At 2/5/2015 9:21:16 AM, The-Voice-of-Truth wrote:
There was (and still is, the game is still going on) a Beginners Mafia game where all townies were Vanilla; HUGE MISTAKE.

1. Why?
2. Wanna debate this?

1. It was a test game-type. I can't remember who thought of it, I will need to go look at DP1, but it was a bad idea. No one was able to get any information from anybody on who to lynch, as we had no investigative roles. All we could do was random lynch or VTNL.
Beginner series used to always have a game with very few roles under Drafterman.
It worked fine then.
And, that's not "all you could do", and that is exactly why this was tried to be re-introduced, because people need to learn how to play the game.

Actually, no. It was all we could do. I was trying to draw conclusions based off of what others were saying, but no one was giving even the slightest hint of being scummy, except for maybe Medic, but we did not have enough to go on anyway. Plus, there was a lot of inactivity. We finally got roles, and then the game started moving along.

The inactivity hurts, but that is exactly the issue.
You can analyze behavior, analyze lynches, and, yes, randomly vote to get things started. The fact that people aren't playing the game, but using their roles, is the problem. Why post, if I can just cop someone and blindly believe that result?

I think it should be done in reverse - that players should use roles and such BEFORE being thrown into an all vanilla/goon setup. They should get some experience as to who is scum and what tells they gave before being forced to try and find them on their own, without the assistance of roles/theme/etc.

This just teaches newer players to rely on roles to get information, which shouldn't be something we teach them. Rather we should be teaching them to analyze other people's behaviors and interactions with other people and to use that to gather information.

I was already doing that. I had sufficient evidence that I could use to lynch 2 players (one was mafia and was lynched because he posted in the announcement PM to kill me). The other, I am not sure. I was killed last NP.
Suh dude

"Because we all know who the most important snowflake in the wasteland is... It's YOU, champ! You're a special snowflake." -Vaarka, 01:30 in the hangouts

"Screw laying siege to Korea. That usually takes an hour or so." -Vaarka

"Crap, what is my religion again?" -Vaarka

I'm Rick Harrison and this is my pawn shop. I work here with my old man and my son, Big Hoss, and in 23 years I've learned one thing. You never know what is gonna come through that door.
Zaradi
Posts: 14,127
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2/5/2015 10:38:28 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 2/5/2015 10:37:23 AM, The-Voice-of-Truth wrote:
At 2/5/2015 10:29:11 AM, Zaradi wrote:
At 2/5/2015 10:23:23 AM, EndarkenedRationalist wrote:
At 2/5/2015 10:19:36 AM, KhaosMage wrote:
At 2/5/2015 10:16:39 AM, The-Voice-of-Truth wrote:
At 2/5/2015 10:12:11 AM, KhaosMage wrote:
At 2/5/2015 10:08:00 AM, The-Voice-of-Truth wrote:
At 2/5/2015 9:59:36 AM, Zaradi wrote:
At 2/5/2015 9:21:16 AM, The-Voice-of-Truth wrote:
There was (and still is, the game is still going on) a Beginners Mafia game where all townies were Vanilla; HUGE MISTAKE.

1. Why?
2. Wanna debate this?

1. It was a test game-type. I can't remember who thought of it, I will need to go look at DP1, but it was a bad idea. No one was able to get any information from anybody on who to lynch, as we had no investigative roles. All we could do was random lynch or VTNL.
Beginner series used to always have a game with very few roles under Drafterman.
It worked fine then.
And, that's not "all you could do", and that is exactly why this was tried to be re-introduced, because people need to learn how to play the game.

Actually, no. It was all we could do. I was trying to draw conclusions based off of what others were saying, but no one was giving even the slightest hint of being scummy, except for maybe Medic, but we did not have enough to go on anyway. Plus, there was a lot of inactivity. We finally got roles, and then the game started moving along.

The inactivity hurts, but that is exactly the issue.
You can analyze behavior, analyze lynches, and, yes, randomly vote to get things started. The fact that people aren't playing the game, but using their roles, is the problem. Why post, if I can just cop someone and blindly believe that result?

I think it should be done in reverse - that players should use roles and such BEFORE being thrown into an all vanilla/goon setup. They should get some experience as to who is scum and what tells they gave before being forced to try and find them on their own, without the assistance of roles/theme/etc.

This just teaches newer players to rely on roles to get information, which shouldn't be something we teach them. Rather we should be teaching them to analyze other people's behaviors and interactions with other people and to use that to gather information.

I was already doing that. I had sufficient evidence that I could use to lynch 2 players (one was mafia and was lynched because he posted in the announcement PM to kill me). The other, I am not sure. I was killed last NP.

Congratz, you're reaping the benefits of the all-vanilla set up while at the same time saying they don't exist and that it sucks.
Want to debate? Pick a topic and hit me up! - http://www.debate.org...
EndarkenedRationalist
Posts: 14,201
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2/5/2015 10:40:58 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 2/5/2015 10:35:33 AM, Zaradi wrote:
At 2/5/2015 10:31:26 AM, EndarkenedRationalist wrote:
At 2/5/2015 10:29:11 AM, Zaradi wrote:
At 2/5/2015 10:23:23 AM, EndarkenedRationalist wrote:
At 2/5/2015 10:19:36 AM, KhaosMage wrote:
At 2/5/2015 10:16:39 AM, The-Voice-of-Truth wrote:
At 2/5/2015 10:12:11 AM, KhaosMage wrote:
At 2/5/2015 10:08:00 AM, The-Voice-of-Truth wrote:
At 2/5/2015 9:59:36 AM, Zaradi wrote:
At 2/5/2015 9:21:16 AM, The-Voice-of-Truth wrote:
There was (and still is, the game is still going on) a Beginners Mafia game where all townies were Vanilla; HUGE MISTAKE.

1. Why?
2. Wanna debate this?

1. It was a test game-type. I can't remember who thought of it, I will need to go look at DP1, but it was a bad idea. No one was able to get any information from anybody on who to lynch, as we had no investigative roles. All we could do was random lynch or VTNL.
Beginner series used to always have a game with very few roles under Drafterman.
It worked fine then.
And, that's not "all you could do", and that is exactly why this was tried to be re-introduced, because people need to learn how to play the game.

Actually, no. It was all we could do. I was trying to draw conclusions based off of what others were saying, but no one was giving even the slightest hint of being scummy, except for maybe Medic, but we did not have enough to go on anyway. Plus, there was a lot of inactivity. We finally got roles, and then the game started moving along.

The inactivity hurts, but that is exactly the issue.
You can analyze behavior, analyze lynches, and, yes, randomly vote to get things started. The fact that people aren't playing the game, but using their roles, is the problem. Why post, if I can just cop someone and blindly believe that result?

I think it should be done in reverse - that players should use roles and such BEFORE being thrown into an all vanilla/goon setup. They should get some experience as to who is scum and what tells they gave before being forced to try and find them on their own, without the assistance of roles/theme/etc.

This just teaches newer players to rely on roles to get information, which shouldn't be something we teach them. Rather we should be teaching them to analyze other people's behaviors and interactions with other people and to use that to gather information.

At the endgame of such setups, players can go back and see what giveaways scum players made before being found. That'll help them have some experience with noting those behaviors before they have to find them without the help of roles. It's a rare person who can not only distinguish town motivations from scum one straightaway but can also distinguish scummy town from scum.

1. They can do that in an all-vanilla game too.

I never said it should be abolished; I said it should be last in the series of 4.

2. No one is going to really do this anyway, especially if they were relying on results to determine who to lynch and who not to lynch.

One shouldn't rely solely on results. Roles and theme, etc, are a crutch. It makes more sense to play with the handicap before removing it. Why teach them the skills - poorly, since they have no idea what to look for - and then handicap them?

3. The best way, arguably, to teach people how to spot behavior that is indicative of being scum and how to distinguish scummy town from genuine scum is in the game while it's occurring. Hind-sight is only so good and we need to be able to understand our exact thought process at the time and why we believed the post was town/scum and why, in reality, the post was town/null/scum and what general indicators there were in the post or in the game overall to reach that conclusion. After the game, it matters less and people will draw less from it: the game's already over, after all.

The problem with that way is that it runs the possibility of being wrong. Few things are always scummy under every circumstance. I'd say a mass claim is, for example, but then players like Beginner will always advocate one anyway. There's not really universal agreement.
KhaosMage
Posts: 1,475
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2/5/2015 10:42:28 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 2/5/2015 10:37:21 AM, EndarkenedRationalist wrote:
At 2/5/2015 10:33:49 AM, KhaosMage wrote:
At 2/5/2015 10:23:23 AM, EndarkenedRationalist wrote:

I think it should be done in reverse - that players should use roles and such BEFORE being thrown into an all vanilla/goon setup. They should get some experience as to who is scum and what tells they gave before being forced to try and find them on their own, without the assistance of roles/theme/etc.

I disagree.
Being mafia in the first game of the series is daunting for noobs, since there is so much stuff going on. Fake claims, roles, NKs. For town, they, too, have other things to deal with that can cause confusion, what is an NP, what does visit mean, what is a role?

Well, the first game certainly shouldn't be thematic. But a setup with a basic list of roles (cop, doctor, vanilla, goon, godfather) seems functional. Like the way the Beginner's series worked before, only with adding the all vanilla game at the end.

No godfather, but a role cop.
Also, I would avoid an all vanilla game. End or otherwise.

A very basic setup is ideal for noobs to learn the flow and structure of the game, how to vote, how to play, and knowing what the hell is going on. They learn a foundation of the game FIRST, and hopefully learn from doing, especially if they are engaged in an endgame discussion.

They did this under the old system too.
There was no all vanilla game that I recall.

Adding roles in the next games makes it less daunting, since now the game is understood how to play, so the second game is about using roles wisely, not learn to play the game as well.

Sure. But behavioral analysis is the heart of mafia, not the basics.
And noobs are unable to analyze behavior (generally) and their behavior is generally unknown. So, again, a quick, simple game to get an understand of how the game is played in a basic form, as well as getting some basework for the players' meta.