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Bartimaeus endgame

TUF
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2/5/2015 10:27:09 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
Winners: Mafia! (Bsh1, bullish, HPG, Medic)

Mafia Roles: https://docs.google.com...

Night Actions: https://docs.google.com...

Well what a great game!

I don't want to give MVP's, so I'll make a few brief mentions.

Bsh1 and Bullish were the most active and contributing mafia members in the PM, and I feel like the driving force behind the scum team. Medic was great too when he was active.

Raisor had amazing luck with his targets. First he tracked the mafia janitor (which royally screwed scum over NP1), then when he replaced in with number he got medic in his lie. I feel like his play was really good too.

FT was the one, who I personally feel started the wagon on medic that eventually led people to doubt his innocent. This is a tremendous feat, as I feel like medic probably wouldn't have been targeted by raisor otherwise. If Rev was more active, I feel like FT coulf have prevented his lynch. Also FT successfully doctored twice, though it didn't really matter with bsh1 alive.

Balance?

Mafia complained a little bit that they were under powered. I strongly dis-agree with this, but I would like your guy's opinion on this.

Mafia had an every night janitor (a role I use a lot, with the caveat that if it dies all its target's flip).

Mafia had a strongman (which shot through two protected kills).

Mafia had a free list of fake claims in the DP 1 OP, which they actually used to their advantage.

I think Mafia really just had a lot of bad luck with town results. The mason PM could have turned out pretty for them, had bsh1 not already outted FT's janitored role to Endarkened, forcing him to kill him that night.

Town actually got shafted, and I do appologize for that. I robbed you of a mis-lynch with yama's modkilling. I normally would have birthed a new player into the game, but I was already frustrated with looking for replacements for the players that were inactive, and that was one more stress I didn't want to deal with.

Would town have won had I not mod-killed yama? I don't know. Bsh1 was pretty good at flying under the radar.

Despite that, town had incredible luck with night actions and only mis-lynched twice out of 6 DP's. I'd say that is pretty good. I honestly thought town was going to win this.

Any feedback on balance? I tried to proportion roles evenly enough. I generally do two vanillas. The odd night cop was made limited, and so was raisor's role. These roles were made to balance each other out. The hunter and the bulletproof didn't come into play the way I thought they would for the town.
I had to get a little stretchy with thematic analysis on certain player's roles, like Farquarl's. I wanted a doc in the game, but didn't know of a good character for the role, and I really wanted to use Farquarl, so I made up some crappy justification about how he saved bartimaeus in the Tower from the mournful orb.
"I've got to go and grab a shirt" ~ Airmax1227
EndarkenedRationalist
Posts: 14,201
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2/5/2015 10:30:23 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
I don't know if the Mason PM would have turned out pretty. I had bsh as scum DP1 (I lied about town-reading him). As I told TUF, I was hoping recruiting scum would keep me alive a bit longer. I just misanticipated mafia's actions NP2 (I thought they would kill Raisor.) Only once I saw the janitor flip (and the target of his janitoring was revealed) did it makes sense for mafia to kill me.
bsh1
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2/5/2015 10:31:54 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 2/5/2015 10:30:23 PM, EndarkenedRationalist wrote:
I don't know if the Mason PM would have turned out pretty. I had bsh as scum DP1 (I lied about town-reading him). As I told TUF, I was hoping recruiting scum would keep me alive a bit longer. I just misanticipated mafia's actions NP2 (I thought they would kill Raisor.) Only once I saw the janitor flip (and the target of his janitoring was revealed) did it makes sense for mafia to kill me.

You asked me who I was. If I refused to answer, then you would've outted me as scum. FT's janitored role was the best lie to give you. But, as soon as Beginner died I had to get rid of you.

XLAV was spot on in questioning mafia's motives for killing you.
Live Long and Prosper

I'm a Bish.


"Twilight isn't just about obtuse metaphors between cannibalism and premarital sex, it also teaches us the futility of hope." - Raisor

"[Bsh1] is the Guinan of DDO." - ButterCatX

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TUF
Posts: 21,310
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2/5/2015 10:32:34 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 2/5/2015 10:30:23 PM, EndarkenedRationalist wrote:
I don't know if the Mason PM would have turned out pretty. I had bsh as scum DP1 (I lied about town-reading him). As I told TUF, I was hoping recruiting scum would keep me alive a bit longer. I just misanticipated mafia's actions NP2 (I thought they would kill Raisor.) Only once I saw the janitor flip (and the target of his janitoring was revealed) did it makes sense for mafia to kill me.

Lol didn't know you knew about bsh. I guess it's lucky he went and killed you then.
"I've got to go and grab a shirt" ~ Airmax1227
KhaosMage
Posts: 1,475
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2/5/2015 10:32:43 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 2/5/2015 10:27:09 PM, TUF wrote:

I think Mafia really just had a lot of bad luck with town results. The mason PM could have turned out pretty for them, had bsh1 not already outted FT's janitored role to Endarkened, forcing him to kill him that night.

That explains why they went for ER.
LOL
EndarkenedRationalist
Posts: 14,201
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2/5/2015 10:33:45 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 2/5/2015 10:31:54 PM, bsh1 wrote:
At 2/5/2015 10:30:23 PM, EndarkenedRationalist wrote:
I don't know if the Mason PM would have turned out pretty. I had bsh as scum DP1 (I lied about town-reading him). As I told TUF, I was hoping recruiting scum would keep me alive a bit longer. I just misanticipated mafia's actions NP2 (I thought they would kill Raisor.) Only once I saw the janitor flip (and the target of his janitoring was revealed) did it makes sense for mafia to kill me.

You asked me who I was. If I refused to answer, then you would've outted me as scum. FT's janitored role was the best lie to give you. But, as soon as Beginner died I had to get rid of you.

XLAV was spot on in questioning mafia's motives for killing you.

Yeah. I didn't realize the janitor's death would reveal the janitored player.
EndarkenedRationalist
Posts: 14,201
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2/5/2015 10:34:14 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 2/5/2015 10:32:34 PM, TUF wrote:
At 2/5/2015 10:30:23 PM, EndarkenedRationalist wrote:
I don't know if the Mason PM would have turned out pretty. I had bsh as scum DP1 (I lied about town-reading him). As I told TUF, I was hoping recruiting scum would keep me alive a bit longer. I just misanticipated mafia's actions NP2 (I thought they would kill Raisor.) Only once I saw the janitor flip (and the target of his janitoring was revealed) did it makes sense for mafia to kill me.

Lol didn't know you knew about bsh. I guess it's lucky he went and killed you then.

I told you in the PM I was hoping recruiting scum would keep me alive .___.
EndarkenedRationalist
Posts: 14,201
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2/5/2015 10:34:37 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 2/5/2015 10:32:43 PM, KhaosMage wrote:
At 2/5/2015 10:27:09 PM, TUF wrote:

I think Mafia really just had a lot of bad luck with town results. The mason PM could have turned out pretty for them, had bsh1 not already outted FT's janitored role to Endarkened, forcing him to kill him that night.

That explains why they went for ER.
LOL

I do not suck at this game. .____.
TUF
Posts: 21,310
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2/5/2015 10:34:52 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 2/5/2015 10:34:14 PM, EndarkenedRationalist wrote:
At 2/5/2015 10:32:34 PM, TUF wrote:
At 2/5/2015 10:30:23 PM, EndarkenedRationalist wrote:
I don't know if the Mason PM would have turned out pretty. I had bsh as scum DP1 (I lied about town-reading him). As I told TUF, I was hoping recruiting scum would keep me alive a bit longer. I just misanticipated mafia's actions NP2 (I thought they would kill Raisor.) Only once I saw the janitor flip (and the target of his janitoring was revealed) did it makes sense for mafia to kill me.

Lol didn't know you knew about bsh. I guess it's lucky he went and killed you then.

I told you in the PM I was hoping recruiting scum would keep me alive .___.

That was after you were dead though.
"I've got to go and grab a shirt" ~ Airmax1227
EndarkenedRationalist
Posts: 14,201
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2/5/2015 10:36:31 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 2/5/2015 10:34:52 PM, TUF wrote:
At 2/5/2015 10:34:14 PM, EndarkenedRationalist wrote:
At 2/5/2015 10:32:34 PM, TUF wrote:
At 2/5/2015 10:30:23 PM, EndarkenedRationalist wrote:
I don't know if the Mason PM would have turned out pretty. I had bsh as scum DP1 (I lied about town-reading him). As I told TUF, I was hoping recruiting scum would keep me alive a bit longer. I just misanticipated mafia's actions NP2 (I thought they would kill Raisor.) Only once I saw the janitor flip (and the target of his janitoring was revealed) did it makes sense for mafia to kill me.

Lol didn't know you knew about bsh. I guess it's lucky he went and killed you then.

I told you in the PM I was hoping recruiting scum would keep me alive .___.

That was after you were dead though.

Yes, that's true. The implication there was that I knew he was scum when I recruited him. Actually, my reasoning may not have been the best. I was just appalled by how middle-of-the-road/indecisive his play was that DP. I thought he was much better than that.
KhaosMage
Posts: 1,475
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2/5/2015 10:36:41 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 2/5/2015 10:34:37 PM, EndarkenedRationalist wrote:
At 2/5/2015 10:32:43 PM, KhaosMage wrote:
At 2/5/2015 10:27:09 PM, TUF wrote:

I think Mafia really just had a lot of bad luck with town results. The mason PM could have turned out pretty for them, had bsh1 not already outted FT's janitored role to Endarkened, forcing him to kill him that night.

That explains why they went for ER.
LOL

I do not suck at this game. .____.

I don't recall saying you did. I said, or meant, there were better targets than you.
But with Raisor running around, I didn't understand your death.
(nor did I find it helpful when people kept misapplying your role)
bsh1
Posts: 27,504
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2/5/2015 10:37:51 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
Medic and HPG needed to be more communicative.
Live Long and Prosper

I'm a Bish.


"Twilight isn't just about obtuse metaphors between cannibalism and premarital sex, it also teaches us the futility of hope." - Raisor

"[Bsh1] is the Guinan of DDO." - ButterCatX

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: http://www.debate.org...

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EndarkenedRationalist
Posts: 14,201
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2/5/2015 10:38:23 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 2/5/2015 10:36:41 PM, KhaosMage wrote:
At 2/5/2015 10:34:37 PM, EndarkenedRationalist wrote:
At 2/5/2015 10:32:43 PM, KhaosMage wrote:
At 2/5/2015 10:27:09 PM, TUF wrote:

I think Mafia really just had a lot of bad luck with town results. The mason PM could have turned out pretty for them, had bsh1 not already outted FT's janitored role to Endarkened, forcing him to kill him that night.

That explains why they went for ER.
LOL

I do not suck at this game. .____.

I don't recall saying you did. I said, or meant, there were better targets than you.
But with Raisor running around, I didn't understand your death.
(nor did I find it helpful when people kept misapplying your role)

Was kind of hoping you, with your beautifully paranoid mind (love you) would put 2 and 2 together, actually.
KhaosMage
Posts: 1,475
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2/5/2015 10:39:40 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 2/5/2015 10:38:23 PM, EndarkenedRationalist wrote:
At 2/5/2015 10:36:41 PM, KhaosMage wrote:
At 2/5/2015 10:34:37 PM, EndarkenedRationalist wrote:
At 2/5/2015 10:32:43 PM, KhaosMage wrote:
At 2/5/2015 10:27:09 PM, TUF wrote:

I think Mafia really just had a lot of bad luck with town results. The mason PM could have turned out pretty for them, had bsh1 not already outted FT's janitored role to Endarkened, forcing him to kill him that night.

That explains why they went for ER.
LOL

I do not suck at this game. .____.

I don't recall saying you did. I said, or meant, there were better targets than you.
But with Raisor running around, I didn't understand your death.
(nor did I find it helpful when people kept misapplying your role)

Was kind of hoping you, with your beautifully paranoid mind (love you) would put 2 and 2 together, actually.

I put 1 and 3 together, and thought role cop, especially with two cops running around.
KhaosMage
Posts: 1,475
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2/5/2015 10:42:49 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 2/5/2015 10:27:09 PM, TUF wrote:
It did seem a bit town sided.
The janitor is a good role, but ultimately useless, since mafia can't use those claims. (at best it's a role cop for them)
Three cops seemed to many. I get there was no real protection with bsh1, but still, aura cop would have found two scum.

Plus, having a governor and hunter hurt the chances of mafia quick hammering for a win.
bsh1
Posts: 27,504
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2/5/2015 10:43:37 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
I think my scum play has greatly improved too.
Live Long and Prosper

I'm a Bish.


"Twilight isn't just about obtuse metaphors between cannibalism and premarital sex, it also teaches us the futility of hope." - Raisor

"[Bsh1] is the Guinan of DDO." - ButterCatX

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bsh1
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2/5/2015 10:50:00 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 2/5/2015 10:45:36 PM, EndarkenedRationalist wrote:
Fun game, TUF! Thanks!
Live Long and Prosper

I'm a Bish.


"Twilight isn't just about obtuse metaphors between cannibalism and premarital sex, it also teaches us the futility of hope." - Raisor

"[Bsh1] is the Guinan of DDO." - ButterCatX

Follow the DDOlympics
: http://www.debate.org...

Open Debate Topics Project: http://www.debate.org...
Bullish
Posts: 3,527
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2/5/2015 11:06:46 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 2/5/2015 10:36:31 PM, EndarkenedRationalist wrote:
At 2/5/2015 10:34:52 PM, TUF wrote:
At 2/5/2015 10:34:14 PM, EndarkenedRationalist wrote:
At 2/5/2015 10:32:34 PM, TUF wrote:
At 2/5/2015 10:30:23 PM, EndarkenedRationalist wrote:
I don't know if the Mason PM would have turned out pretty. I had bsh as scum DP1 (I lied about town-reading him). As I told TUF, I was hoping recruiting scum would keep me alive a bit longer. I just misanticipated mafia's actions NP2 (I thought they would kill Raisor.) Only once I saw the janitor flip (and the target of his janitoring was revealed) did it makes sense for mafia to kill me.

Lol didn't know you knew about bsh. I guess it's lucky he went and killed you then.

I told you in the PM I was hoping recruiting scum would keep me alive .___.

That was after you were dead though.

Yes, that's true. The implication there was that I knew he was scum when I recruited him. Actually, my reasoning may not have been the best. I was just appalled by how middle-of-the-road/indecisive his play

I can't agree more here.

was that DP. I thought he was much better than that.
0x5f3759df
Bullish
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2/5/2015 11:11:43 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 2/5/2015 10:42:49 PM, KhaosMage wrote:
At 2/5/2015 10:27:09 PM, TUF wrote:
It did seem a bit town sided.
The janitor is a good role, but ultimately useless, since mafia can't use those claims. (at best it's a role cop for them)

But the janitor can. If the janitor dies then it doesn't matter people know his claim was fake. That's why I was a bit pissed that I couldn't claim a fake claim meant for me and that we had to be real careful on 2 fronts.

Three cops seemed to many. I get there was no real protection with bsh1, but still, aura cop would have found two scum.

Plus, having a governor and hunter hurt the chances of mafia quick hammering for a win.

I thought the game was for the most part balanced. The thing wit DDO games is that the number of roles increase the factor of chance dramatically.
0x5f3759df
FourTrouble
Posts: 12,774
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2/5/2015 11:18:11 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
TUF, I understand mod-killing out of frustration but it made the game 100% unbalanced. Mafia had 4 members; town had 1 mislynch. That means town needed to have am accuracy of 80% to win the game.

I think generally balance should give town an equal number of mislynches as there are mafia. This game didn't even cone close to that. So I think this was much more a town win; 2 mislynches and 3 correct lynches isn't a loss in my book. As for roles, they were balanced - janitor and godfather are extremely strong. The town had a couple useful investigative roles but at the end of the day, results don't matter - you have a godfather. And town lynched that godfather which was great play. I think given even 1 more mislynch available, this would have been a different game, so I can't condone the result.

That said, I had fun trying to figure stuff out. I was on the right track so I'm happy about that - my initial thoughts on replacing in were medic and HPG as mafia. So that was good. Khaos was obvious town based on his reaction to my "lie"; as I explained scum cant fake that reaction because theyre informed and town arent. I also thought it was bsh1 on the last DP. I was 100% against Khaos and Ford being lynched - and raisor seemed townish after pushing medic - so I dunno what happened but good on mafia killing me again - I guess paranoia re: Khaos was too much too. I dunno.
Bullish
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2/5/2015 11:19:18 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 2/5/2015 10:30:23 PM, EndarkenedRationalist wrote:
I don't know if the Mason PM would have turned out pretty. I had bsh as scum DP1 (I lied about town-reading him). As I told TUF, I was hoping recruiting scum would keep me alive a bit longer. I just misanticipated mafia's actions NP2 (I thought they would kill Raisor.) Only once I saw the janitor flip (and the target of his janitoring was revealed) did it makes sense for mafia to kill me.

You should ways speak your mind. Town doesn't have enough unity as is and needs as much truth as possible. If everyone trod to stay alive by town reading their scum reads, the entire game would be a town slaughter rest.

Outing bsh1 at best gets a lynch, at worst a wrong read. We all know that WIFOM makes mafia not go for the obvious NKs.
0x5f3759df
FourTrouble
Posts: 12,774
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2/5/2015 11:21:37 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 2/5/2015 10:43:37 PM, bsh1 wrote:
I think my scum play has greatly improved too.

Unvoting me on D1 was very good; enough to avoid getting lynched far into the game. I think your reaction to my "lie" was weak though and your claim sucked. The biggest problem I saw was that you weren't more town than Khaos or Ford or raisor, which didn't matter to them, but would have to me.

Very good night actions though. You chose the right people to bring to LYLO.
EndarkenedRationalist
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2/5/2015 11:22:21 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 2/5/2015 11:19:18 PM, Bullish wrote:
At 2/5/2015 10:30:23 PM, EndarkenedRationalist wrote:
I don't know if the Mason PM would have turned out pretty. I had bsh as scum DP1 (I lied about town-reading him). As I told TUF, I was hoping recruiting scum would keep me alive a bit longer. I just misanticipated mafia's actions NP2 (I thought they would kill Raisor.) Only once I saw the janitor flip (and the target of his janitoring was revealed) did it makes sense for mafia to kill me.

You should ways speak your mind. Town doesn't have enough unity as is and needs as much truth as possible. If everyone trod to stay alive by town reading their scum reads, the entire game would be a town slaughter rest.

A lot of it was based on role. I was more useful to town if I survived until later. My level of honesty DP1 generally depends on whether or not I can best serve town earlier or later in the game.

Outing bsh1 at best gets a lynch, at worst a wrong read. We all know that WIFOM makes mafia not go for the obvious NKs.
FourTrouble
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2/5/2015 11:38:29 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
Ford's claim was actually quite good; if town had 1 more mislynch, the game was almost an auto-win.

Ford was confirmed town because of results and medic's flip. Raisor would have been killed. The last person alive would have been me or Yama. Pretty sure bsh1 gets lynched in that scenario.
ford_prefect
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2/5/2015 11:46:19 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
Good game all and thanks TUF for modding.

Balance wise I would say mafia was a little underpowered but the modkill was in their favor. So it goes both ways.

Ultimately I am willing to take a fair share of blame for the loss, since I got to 4 man MYLO and couldn't get it done.

All things considered, I definitely enjoyed this game and my only regret is not sticking to my guns on the last gambit. In any case congratulations to bsh for sticking it out in a very tight spot.
Bullish
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2/5/2015 11:57:26 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 2/5/2015 11:39:30 PM, FourTrouble wrote:
Question- why kill me N1?

I don't know. Going into that DP I was almost certain that I must have been seen doing the kill and then relaxed a bit until Raisor started pressuring me.
0x5f3759df
TUF
Posts: 21,310
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2/6/2015 12:52:02 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 2/5/2015 11:18:11 PM, FourTrouble wrote:
TUF, I understand mod-killing out of frustration but it made the game 100% unbalanced. Mafia had 4 members; town had 1 mislynch. That means town needed to have am accuracy of 80% to win the game.

I think generally balance should give town an equal number of mislynches as there are mafia. This game didn't even cone close to that. So I think this was much more a town win; 2 mislynches and 3 correct lynches isn't a loss in my book. As for roles, they were balanced - janitor and godfather are extremely strong. The town had a couple useful investigative roles but at the end of the day, results don't matter - you have a godfather. And town lynched that godfather which was great play. I think given even 1 more mislynch available, this would have been a different game, so I can't condone the result.

That said, I had fun trying to figure stuff out. I was on the right track so I'm happy about that - my initial thoughts on replacing in were medic and HPG as mafia. So that was good. Khaos was obvious town based on his reaction to my "lie"; as I explained scum cant fake that reaction because theyre informed and town arent. I also thought it was bsh1 on the last DP. I was 100% against Khaos and Ford being lynched - and raisor seemed townish after pushing medic - so I dunno what happened but good on mafia killing me again - I guess paranoia re: Khaos was too much too. I dunno.

I mentioned this already for the most part concerning the balance after the modkill. honestly though you saw how many replacements were in the game. Replacing wasn't the most feasible option at that point. Anyway khaos plans to do much worse to players for simply being inactive, so I feel a little less guilty about the mod kill from that. That said, I do still agree that it threw balance out of towns favor. I just think you should blame yama, not me.
"I've got to go and grab a shirt" ~ Airmax1227