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Mislynch - Who to blame?

XLAV
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4/16/2015 1:33:07 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
So here's a topic I would like to discuss.

If a bunch of townies/townie lead a mislynch at another townie, do we blame the lyncher(s) or the lynchee?
ESocialBookworm
Posts: 14,361
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4/16/2015 1:51:10 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 4/16/2015 1:33:07 PM, XLAV wrote:
So here's a topic I would like to discuss.

If a bunch of townies/townie lead a mislynch at another townie, do we blame the lyncher(s) or the lynchee?

It depends on the context
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Wylted
Posts: 21,167
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4/16/2015 2:23:11 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
The lyncheees are always at fault. They misjudged plain and simple. I am starting to believe in policy lynches in very specific scenarios, though, but that's not to just merely lynch somebody for personal reasons or disagreement on philosophy, just on actions proven to indicate scum as often as it doesn't.
headphonegut
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4/16/2015 2:28:49 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 4/16/2015 1:33:07 PM, XLAV wrote:
So here's a topic I would like to discuss.

If a bunch of townies/townie lead a mislynch at another townie, do we blame the lyncher(s) or the lynchee?

the lynchers won't ever be able to admit that their intelligence/rationale/logic was wrong. At the end of the day if a town is lynched mafia are much closer to their wincon. rationalize it all you want.
crying to soldiers coming home to their dogs why do I torment myself with these videos?
RevNge
Posts: 13,835
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4/16/2015 3:11:10 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 4/16/2015 1:51:10 PM, ESocialBookworm wrote:
At 4/16/2015 1:33:07 PM, XLAV wrote:
So here's a topic I would like to discuss.

If a bunch of townies/townie lead a mislynch at another townie, do we blame the lyncher(s) or the lynchee?

It depends on the context

At 4/16/2015 1:45:10 PM, EndarkenedRationalist wrote:
Depends on the context. In a policy lynch, the lynchee is at fault.

lol
F-16_Fighting_Falcon
Posts: 18,324
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4/16/2015 3:36:55 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
The universal response to this would be "depends on the context" and I doubt people would respond any other way.

I'll probably elaborate what those contexts are when I get home later tonight.
BlackVoid
Posts: 9,170
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4/16/2015 3:55:00 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
The lynchers. Always. I've never blamed anyone but myself when I VTL'd a townie. Its our job to analyze a person's behavior, and if we misread, its on us.

The only possible exceptions you could argue are townies that naturally act scummy. But in that case, its our job to factor that into our decision. If someone's acting like a d!ck to everyone, or stalling on their claim, or giving crappy analysis, we have to consider the player doing it, because we all know people who do those things as both affiliations. If you lead a lynch on someone for doing those things when they're the type of player who would do it as town anyway, its on you.

That said, not everyone on the site is capable of looking past those things. A lot of players allow emotions to get involved, so talking sh1t to players or not cooperating with the town can cause people to want to lynch you. While thats mostly on the lynchers in that case (because some people act that way as town), its also your responsibility as a townie to recognize that and adjust your play accordingly by not doing those things. Being calm and cooperative will always lead to fewer mislynches than aggressive and uncooperative, and not being ML'd is just as big a part of the game as scumhunting.

I guess there would be one scenario where the lynchee is primarily at fault, and thats if they're intentionally playing scummy (against their meta) in order to make it easier for them next time they're scum. But thats about it.
BlackVoid
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4/16/2015 3:56:37 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
To be clear, I'm not referring to policy lynches. I'm only talking about lynches where we VTL'd someone because we seriously thought they were scum.
Mikal
Posts: 11,270
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4/16/2015 3:58:03 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 4/16/2015 3:56:37 PM, BlackVoid wrote:
To be clear, I'm not referring to policy lynches. I'm only talking about lynches where we VTL'd someone because we seriously thought they were scum.

what about 2001bhu or people like that, that will claim stuff that is so stupid you have to lynch them. Still not their fault?
Maikuru
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4/16/2015 4:25:16 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
Unless the lynchee is trying to die, the lynchers are primarily to blame. It's town's job to scum hunt, so if they hit town, it's on them.
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Skepsikyma
Posts: 8,280
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4/16/2015 6:01:08 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 4/16/2015 1:33:07 PM, XLAV wrote:
So here's a topic I would like to discuss.

If a bunch of townies/townie lead a mislynch at another townie, do we blame the lyncher(s) or the lynchee?

The lynchers, unless the player is new to the site with a scummy meta. If I lynch town, I look back at my own analysis for points of improvement because I obviously made a misjudgement at some point. If the player is new, I try to study their meta a bit so I don't repeat the mistake.
"The Collectivist experiment is thoroughly suited (in appearance at least) to the Capitalist society which it proposes to replace. It works with the existing machinery of Capitalism, talks and thinks in the existing terms of Capitalism, appeals to just those appetites which Capitalism has aroused, and ridicules as fantastic and unheard-of just those things in society the memory of which Capitalism has killed among men wherever the blight of it has spread."
- Hilaire Belloc -
BlackVoid
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4/16/2015 6:07:04 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 4/16/2015 3:58:03 PM, Mikal wrote:
At 4/16/2015 3:56:37 PM, BlackVoid wrote:
To be clear, I'm not referring to policy lynches. I'm only talking about lynches where we VTL'd someone because we seriously thought they were scum.

what about 2001bhu or people like that, that will claim stuff that is so stupid you have to lynch them. Still not their fault?

Like, he claims stupid stuff even when he's town? Then you cant scumread him for it, because its his meta.

You could argue that you should policy lynch him until he learn to play the game properly. You'd probably win that argument. But I'm talking about lynches where we seriously scumread the person.

The OP probably had the lynch of Xlav/Wylted in Pantheon in mind when writing this. In that situation, I think town is primarily at fault because they need to be able to put aside their irritation at those players' condescending attitude and try to objectively read them. But I would also put part blame on Xlav and Wylted themselves because if they had simply not acted like arrogant douchebags, their chances of getting someone else lynched would have been much higher.

Of course, the town should have realized that X/W just have those type of personalities regardless of affiliation.
F-16_Fighting_Falcon
Posts: 18,324
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4/16/2015 10:22:17 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
Okay. So, BlackVoid pretty much nailed it.

If a townie is doing everything in their power to help town, is playing pro-town and putting in time and effort into the game, then the blame lies with the people that voted that townie. The key here is effort, not ability. For instance, your analysis could be bad. You may be incapable of looking town naturally. But as long as you put in that effort, that's all that's really needed.

If there is a lack of effort:

1) Inactivity - Some inactivity is fine but extreme inactivity (like Korashk on DP1 of Pantheon) means that the lynched townie has at least some responsibility towards being lynched.

2) Fake-claims - DO NOT do this. While I still townread you and Wylted after that fake-claim, did you realize that the ONE thing that made me question my strong townread on you in Pantheon was the fact that I just didn't buy you having five 1X abilities? Your fake-claim led to your eventual lynch when people that townread you were dead. This was your (Wylted's) fault. Townies are responsible for claiming correctly. It is the least you can do to be transparent.

BlackVoid is correct that aggressive and hostile behavior shouldn't be reason for a lynch because it is non-alignment indicative. It wasn't just Wylted's hostile play - it was also the fake-claim - that contributed to your lynch.

Raisor made a very insightful comment towards the end of Pantheon: you can't always be right in every read. You will be wrong somewhere. So mafia is not about having perfect reads but working with people.

To add onto that, if you are transparent enough that you can't be lynched, POE will eventually catch up to the scum and they will lose. If all townies are transparent enough, scum will never get a mislynch. So being transparent contributes to the town wincon. This is also about effort rather than ability. Khaos and Dalt were not to blame in Pantheon because they put in the maximum effort they were capable of, but the same doesn't apply for Korashk. Khaos is a gray area though.
bluesteel
Posts: 12,301
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4/16/2015 10:51:01 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 4/16/2015 1:33:07 PM, XLAV wrote:
So here's a topic I would like to discuss.

If a bunch of townies/townie lead a mislynch at another townie, do we blame the lyncher(s) or the lynchee?

Both. If you play well and do everything in your power not to get lynched (i.e. are active, full claim and summarize your PM, offer good analysis, and offer town a reasonable alternative to you, and explain any inconsistencies or scum-reads people think they have on you), then you probably won't be mislynched. I rarely ever see the best townies get mislynched.

It's also town's fault for not reading that person's behavior or just lynching too quickly.

But from what I've seen recently, it's often the players fault. So many people on here right now think it's okay to fake claim or be non-cooperative as town. And the justification for doing so is to protect their scum-meta so it isn't different (which is bs) or that they think they're helping the town (but fake claiming *rarely* does). The *chance* of drawing the NK to a townie, for example, is not worth the near-certain mislynch when you're caught lying.
You can't reason someone out of a position they didn't reason themselves into - Jonathan Swift (paraphrase)
Ore_Ele
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4/17/2015 12:47:10 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
As others have said. It entirely depends on the situation. It depends on HOW the player is playing, what night actions have yielded, and how town responds to info being presented.

For example, if you are big and you kill someone that is clearly town, because you were nervous they would lead town and watched saw you do that, as well as cop got a guilty on you because of a framer, then it isn't town's fault for lynching you. Heck, even if the person you killed wasn't "clearly" town, then it is still just lucky for mafia and not a fault of anyone because of how the die fell.
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FourTrouble
Posts: 12,757
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4/17/2015 11:24:21 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 4/16/2015 10:22:17 PM, F-16_Fighting_Falcon wrote:
If a townie is doing everything in their power to help town, is playing pro-town and putting in time and effort into the game, then the blame lies with the people that voted that townie. The key here is effort, not ability. For instance, your analysis could be bad. You may be incapable of looking town naturally. But as long as you put in that effort, that's all that's really needed.

I agree completely with this.

If there is a lack of effort:

1) Inactivity - Some inactivity is fine but extreme inactivity (like Korashk on DP1 of Pantheon) means that the lynched townie has at least some responsibility towards being lynched.

Agreed.

2) Fake-claims - DO NOT do this. While I still townread you and Wylted after that fake-claim, did you realize that the ONE thing that made me question my strong townread on you in Pantheon was the fact that I just didn't buy you having five 1X abilities? Your fake-claim led to your eventual lynch when people that townread you were dead. This was your (Wylted's) fault. Townies are responsible for claiming correctly. It is the least you can do to be transparent.

I do not agree with this. I think it DEPENDS on the nature of the fake-claim. I've been responsible for defending many townies in the past who've fake-claimed (particularly Mestari), and I think it's because when town fake-claims correctly, it's obvious their intent was pro-town, so it's a non-reason for their lynching. I consider it null, so you look at other things, and if you lynch wrongly based on other behaviors, it's not their fault if they were putting effort.

Raisor made a very insightful comment towards the end of Pantheon: you can't always be right in every read. You will be wrong somewhere. So mafia is not about having perfect reads but working with people.

Agreed. I think people forget that sometimes mafia will simply outplay you, and that's okay -- it's a game and that's supposed to happen. The best thing to do is recognize mafia are playing well and work with others.

To add onto that, if you are transparent enough that you can't be lynched, POE will eventually catch up to the scum and they will lose. If all townies are transparent enough, scum will never get a mislynch. So being transparent contributes to the town wincon. This is also about effort rather than ability. Khaos and Dalt were not to blame in Pantheon because they put in the maximum effort they were capable of, but the same doesn't apply for Korashk. Khaos is a gray area though.

I disagree. I think you overestimate the value of transparency. Townies could be fully transparent and scum would still get mislynches. Process of elimination works on bad mafia. But good play from mafia -- good fake-claims, good fake-reads, etc. -- is enough to make them look just as town. This is especially the case if some of the townies are known for having developed their scum game to that point, so that transparency isn't enough to distinguish their town game from scum game. I think there's a lot of pros to holding things back, and it largely depends on the context and circumstances of each game. I sometimes advocate mass claims on D1; other times I say nothing about anything the entire game.
Mikal
Posts: 11,270
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4/17/2015 11:26:11 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 4/16/2015 6:07:04 PM, BlackVoid wrote:
At 4/16/2015 3:58:03 PM, Mikal wrote:
At 4/16/2015 3:56:37 PM, BlackVoid wrote:
To be clear, I'm not referring to policy lynches. I'm only talking about lynches where we VTL'd someone because we seriously thought they were scum.

what about 2001bhu or people like that, that will claim stuff that is so stupid you have to lynch them. Still not their fault?

Like, he claims stupid stuff even when he's town? Then you cant scumread him for it, because its his meta.

You could argue that you should policy lynch him until he learn to play the game properly. You'd probably win that argument. But I'm talking about lynches where we seriously scumread the person.

The OP probably had the lynch of Xlav/Wylted in Pantheon in mind when writing this. In that situation, I think town is primarily at fault because they need to be able to put aside their irritation at those players' condescending attitude and try to objectively read them. But I would also put part blame on Xlav and Wylted themselves because if they had simply not acted like arrogant douchebags, their chances of getting someone else lynched would have been much higher.

Of course, the town should have realized that X/W just have those type of personalities regardless of affiliation.

This is a great response
FourTrouble
Posts: 12,757
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4/17/2015 11:28:08 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
btw F-16, your theory points are in disagreement with your play in Smite (the lack of transparency re: your role and Ceph's alignment). I thought your play there was the right play (tying Ceph to Ozgin and pushing his lynch would have confirmed you) but it was anything but transparent, and it walked a thin line between fake-claiming and real-claiming.
FourTrouble
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4/17/2015 11:30:16 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
Also, BlackVoid's point ties into a broader meta point -- the single best use of meta, in my opinion, is for determining whether someone does X as town. If they do, don't lynch them for it, no matter how scummy you think it is.
Skepsikyma
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4/17/2015 10:27:18 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
After being subjected to my latest lynch, after reflecting I realized that it was also my first lynch (maybe I was lynched in the beginner series or due to inactivity way back when.

So I want to amend my statement. It is not the lynchees fault when they are mislynched, but they can still take steps to avoid it, and ought to. It's analogous to the whole 'victim-blaming' spiel when it comes to date rape. Yeah, someone who goes out clubbing and leaves their drink unattended while dressed extremely scantily isn't at fault when they're raped, but there are still steps which could have been taken to avoid that situation which, ideally, would have been taken. So when Wylted fake claims something that is suspicious, it isn't his fault that he was lynched, but he certainly acted in a way which was less then optimal and should work on improving that so that a mislynch has less of a chance of happening in the future. If I consider something like that, I ask myself 'is this likely to get me mislynched, and is the risk worth it?' A lot of times it isn't, so I don't do it. I think that town should think about the possible ramifications of their actions and weigh the consequences before acting.
"The Collectivist experiment is thoroughly suited (in appearance at least) to the Capitalist society which it proposes to replace. It works with the existing machinery of Capitalism, talks and thinks in the existing terms of Capitalism, appeals to just those appetites which Capitalism has aroused, and ridicules as fantastic and unheard-of just those things in society the memory of which Capitalism has killed among men wherever the blight of it has spread."
- Hilaire Belloc -
YYW
Posts: 36,286
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4/17/2015 10:52:19 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 4/16/2015 3:55:00 PM, BlackVoid wrote:
The lynchers. Always. I've never blamed anyone but myself when I VTL'd a townie. Its our job to analyze a person's behavior, and if we misread, its on us.

The only possible exceptions you could argue are townies that naturally act scummy. But in that case, its our job to factor that into our decision. If someone's acting like a d!ck to everyone, or stalling on their claim, or giving crappy analysis, we have to consider the player doing it, because we all know people who do those things as both affiliations. If you lead a lynch on someone for doing those things when they're the type of player who would do it as town anyway, its on you.

That said, not everyone on the site is capable of looking past those things. A lot of players allow emotions to get involved, so talking sh1t to players or not cooperating with the town can cause people to want to lynch you. While thats mostly on the lynchers in that case (because some people act that way as town), its also your responsibility as a townie to recognize that and adjust your play accordingly by not doing those things. Being calm and cooperative will always lead to fewer mislynches than aggressive and uncooperative, and not being ML'd is just as big a part of the game as scumhunting.

I guess there would be one scenario where the lynchee is primarily at fault, and thats if they're intentionally playing scummy (against their meta) in order to make it easier for them next time they're scum. But thats about it.

I agree with this.
Tsar of DDO
YYW
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4/17/2015 10:53:50 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 4/17/2015 11:30:16 AM, FourTrouble wrote:
Also, BlackVoid's point ties into a broader meta point -- the single best use of meta, in my opinion, is for determining whether someone does X as town. If they do, don't lynch them for it, no matter how scummy you think it is.

This is something that's really important, because I think a lot of people don't even get their brains to this point.
Tsar of DDO
Khaos_Mage
Posts: 23,214
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4/18/2015 8:13:56 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 4/17/2015 11:30:16 AM, FourTrouble wrote:
Also, BlackVoid's point ties into a broader meta point -- the single best use of meta, in my opinion, is for determining whether someone does X as town. If they do, don't lynch them for it, no matter how scummy you think it is.

Just because people do something as town does not make them town. It should be viewed as null, unless they ONLY do it as town, and would be unlikely for them to do it as scum.
My work here is, finally, done.
Khaos_Mage
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4/18/2015 8:16:05 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 4/17/2015 10:27:18 PM, Skepsikyma wrote:
After being subjected to my latest lynch, after reflecting I realized that it was also my first lynch (maybe I was lynched in the beginner series or due to inactivity way back when.

So I want to amend my statement. It is not the lynchees fault when they are mislynched, but they can still take steps to avoid it, and ought to. It's analogous to the whole 'victim-blaming' spiel when it comes to date rape. Yeah, someone who goes out clubbing and leaves their drink unattended while dressed extremely scantily isn't at fault when they're raped, but there are still steps which could have been taken to avoid that situation which, ideally, would have been taken. So when Wylted fake claims something that is suspicious, it isn't his fault that he was lynched, but he certainly acted in a way which was less then optimal and should work on improving that so that a mislynch has less of a chance of happening in the future. If I consider something like that, I ask myself 'is this likely to get me mislynched, and is the risk worth it?' A lot of times it isn't, so I don't do it. I think that town should think about the possible ramifications of their actions and weigh the consequences before acting.

I like the analogy as I was thinking the exact same thing last night. LOL
My work here is, finally, done.
Khaos_Mage
Posts: 23,214
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4/18/2015 8:26:50 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 4/16/2015 1:33:07 PM, XLAV wrote:
So here's a topic I would like to discuss.

If a bunch of townies/townie lead a mislynch at another townie, do we blame the lyncher(s) or the lynchee?

It's both or either. It really depends and depends on the reasoning.
If a player is framed or otherwise manipulated into believing someone is scum or a soft counter claim situation, it's hard to blame the townie for believing they are scum. In that case, it is the lynchee's fault for not being persuasive enough to convince the other townies not to lynch.

On the other hand, when the scum hunt is PoE, both are at fault. The lynchers for having faulty reads (assuming their town pile is flawed), and the lynchee's for not being in said town pile. They failed at convincing town of their affiliation.

On a third hand, it can be wholly the lyncher's fault, when it is based on policy, bias, or a false positive on some scum read. FT seems to have a policy to lynch some neutral read player DP1, which is likely to be a mislynch. That would be wholly his fault, even if there is allegedly a reason for it.

Now, this is all based on townie's actions, and ignores the manipulation that mafia is supposed to introduce. As such, I am far less angry with people who lead a lynch, than I am with people who sheep one.
My work here is, finally, done.
FourTrouble
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4/18/2015 10:45:07 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 4/18/2015 8:13:56 AM, Khaos_Mage wrote:
At 4/17/2015 11:30:16 AM, FourTrouble wrote:
Also, BlackVoid's point ties into a broader meta point -- the single best use of meta, in my opinion, is for determining whether someone does X as town. If they do, don't lynch them for it, no matter how scummy you think it is.

Just because people do something as town does not make them town. It should be viewed as null, unless they ONLY do it as town, and would be unlikely for them to do it as scum.

Yes, that's what I said.
Khaos_Mage
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4/18/2015 11:26:08 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 4/18/2015 10:45:07 AM, FourTrouble wrote:
At 4/18/2015 8:13:56 AM, Khaos_Mage wrote:
At 4/17/2015 11:30:16 AM, FourTrouble wrote:
Also, BlackVoid's point ties into a broader meta point -- the single best use of meta, in my opinion, is for determining whether someone does X as town. If they do, don't lynch them for it, no matter how scummy you think it is.

Just because people do something as town does not make them town. It should be viewed as null, unless they ONLY do it as town, and would be unlikely for them to do it as scum.

Yes, that's what I said.

I see my mistake.
My work here is, finally, done.