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Themeless - Endgame

TheGreatAndPowerful
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5/1/2015 4:13:52 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
Town wins by Concession!

Players:
1. Mikal - Cop - Town
2. Skepsikyma - 1x Mason Recruiter - Town
3. Rev - Survivor - Third Party
4. HPG - Tracker - Town
5. Yama - Doctor - Mafia
6. Medic - Rolecop - Mafia
7. XLAV - Hunter - Town
8. Bullish - Roleblocker - Mafia
9. F-16 - Bodyguard - Town

I saw some complaints regarding the C/P thing and game balance. I'll admit allowing C/P was an error, if only because of how focused and distracted people got on it. I don't think it should have been an issue. I gave scum enough information that they should have been able to deal with it - they just didn't want to. Oh well. But it's irrelevant because it only really hurt Rev and that was of his own doing. He didn't need to fake claim and if he had claimed truthfully, the C/P would have helped him.

I stand by game balance. Only Cop and Doc were solid roles and the Mafia was basically designed to find and eliminate them. 1x Maons recruit is like a 1x cop that dies if he's wrong and erases a town role if he's right. BG and Hunter are all death related with very small windows of opportunity. Tracker is meh and can actually lead to mislynches.

Town did good. That's all can be said about this game. They picked out scum almost perfectly and Rev and medic made too many mistakes that Town picked up on. It's as simple as that. None of the above is relevant because the game didn't play out where any of that mattered. N1 was basically a waste for Town aside from the NK save (which shouldn't have happened because F16 was an obvious save target). The Cop and Mason were basically redundant.

Town skewered the mafia based on behavior and debate. Plain and simple.
Mikal
Posts: 11,270
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5/1/2015 4:23:14 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 5/1/2015 4:13:52 PM, TheGreatAndPowerful wrote:
Town wins by Concession!

Players:
1. Mikal - Cop - Town
2. Skepsikyma - 1x Mason Recruiter - Town
3. Rev - Survivor - Third Party
4. HPG - Tracker - Town
5. Yama - Doctor - Mafia
6. Medic - Rolecop - Mafia
7. XLAV - Hunter - Town
8. Bullish - Roleblocker - Mafia
9. F-16 - Bodyguard - Town

I saw some complaints regarding the C/P thing and game balance. I'll admit allowing C/P was an error, if only because of how focused and distracted people got on it. I don't think it should have been an issue. I gave scum enough information that they should have been able to deal with it - they just didn't want to. Oh well. But it's irrelevant because it only really hurt Rev and that was of his own doing. He didn't need to fake claim and if he had claimed truthfully, the C/P would have helped him.

I stand by game balance. Only Cop and Doc were solid roles and the Mafia was basically designed to find and eliminate them. 1x Maons recruit is like a 1x cop that dies if he's wrong and erases a town role if he's right. BG and Hunter are all death related with very small windows of opportunity. Tracker is meh and can actually lead to mislynches.

Town did good. That's all can be said about this game. They picked out scum almost perfectly and Rev and medic made too many mistakes that Town picked up on. It's as simple as that. None of the above is relevant because the game didn't play out where any of that mattered. N1 was basically a waste for Town aside from the NK save (which shouldn't have happened because F16 was an obvious save target). The Cop and Mason were basically redundant.

Town skewered the mafia based on behavior and debate. Plain and simple.

if i copped rev i would have got not mafia ?
Bullish
Posts: 3,527
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5/1/2015 4:31:10 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
I disagree that this game was balanced. If this game was played out many many times, I think the town would win 75% of the time or more.

At 5/1/2015 4:13:52 PM, TheGreatAndPowerful wrote:

I stand by game balance. Only Cop and Doc were solid roles and the Mafia was basically designed to find and eliminate them.

They were 2 of the 7 targetable roles. It would have been a shot in the dark for RC/RB/NK to hit them even by DP3.

1x Maons recruit is like a 1x cop that dies if he's wrong and erases a town role if he's right.

That's 2 confirmations a night.

BG and Hunter are all death related with very small windows of opportunity.

The hunters kill is like an extra lynch, which behaves like a guaranteed blocked NK.

Tracker is meh and can actually lead to mislynches.

The tracker's results and a role claim would be unlikely to lead to mislynches. If anything the tracker is just another confirmation role.
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Mikal
Posts: 11,270
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5/1/2015 4:33:05 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 5/1/2015 4:31:10 PM, Bullish wrote:
I disagree that this game was balanced. If this game was played out many many times, I think the town would win 75% of the time or more.

imagine if you gave yama hunter, and we lynched him. Its entirely dependent on who gets the roles. I think the way it played out was optimal based on reads and slips. I think drafter said it perfectly

Between 4 people we got every single mistake you guys made. Now if yama was a hunter and got scum read, it was a free win
TheGreatAndPowerful
Posts: 3,012
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5/1/2015 4:33:49 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 5/1/2015 4:23:14 PM, Mikal wrote:
At 5/1/2015 4:13:52 PM, TheGreatAndPowerful wrote:
Town wins by Concession!

Players:
1. Mikal - Cop - Town
2. Skepsikyma - 1x Mason Recruiter - Town
3. Rev - Survivor - Third Party
4. HPG - Tracker - Town
5. Yama - Doctor - Mafia
6. Medic - Rolecop - Mafia
7. XLAV - Hunter - Town
8. Bullish - Roleblocker - Mafia
9. F-16 - Bodyguard - Town

I saw some complaints regarding the C/P thing and game balance. I'll admit allowing C/P was an error, if only because of how focused and distracted people got on it. I don't think it should have been an issue. I gave scum enough information that they should have been able to deal with it - they just didn't want to. Oh well. But it's irrelevant because it only really hurt Rev and that was of his own doing. He didn't need to fake claim and if he had claimed truthfully, the C/P would have helped him.

I stand by game balance. Only Cop and Doc were solid roles and the Mafia was basically designed to find and eliminate them. 1x Maons recruit is like a 1x cop that dies if he's wrong and erases a town role if he's right. BG and Hunter are all death related with very small windows of opportunity. Tracker is meh and can actually lead to mislynches.

Town did good. That's all can be said about this game. They picked out scum almost perfectly and Rev and medic made too many mistakes that Town picked up on. It's as simple as that. None of the above is relevant because the game didn't play out where any of that mattered. N1 was basically a waste for Town aside from the NK save (which shouldn't have happened because F16 was an obvious save target). The Cop and Mason were basically redundant.

Town skewered the mafia based on behavior and debate. Plain and simple.

if i copped rev i would have got not mafia ?

He wasn't mafia... so... yeah
Mikal
Posts: 11,270
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5/1/2015 4:34:35 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 5/1/2015 4:33:49 PM, TheGreatAndPowerful wrote:

He wasn't mafia... so... yeah

That's what I thought. That was just for my ego and why I called survivor in the game. Wanted to make sure I would have gotten inno
Bullish
Posts: 3,527
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5/1/2015 4:41:58 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 5/1/2015 4:33:05 PM, Mikal wrote:
At 5/1/2015 4:31:10 PM, Bullish wrote:
I disagree that this game was balanced. If this game was played out many many times, I think the town would win 75% of the time or more.

imagine if you gave yama hunter, and we lynched him. Its entirely dependent on who gets the roles. I think the way it played out was optimal based on reads and slips. I think drafter said it perfectly

Between 4 people we got every single mistake you guys made. Now if yama was a hunter and got scum read, it was a free win

Town as a whole played excellently this game I don't deny. We probably would have lost the game anyway if town had a few less roles. But it is still imba.

You can't say this set up is balanced because one of the townies could be suicidal. Yama is 1 person of 9, and he happened to doc the correct person.
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Mikal
Posts: 11,270
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5/1/2015 4:43:17 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 5/1/2015 4:41:58 PM, Bullish wrote:
At 5/1/2015 4:33:05 PM, Mikal wrote:
At 5/1/2015 4:31:10 PM, Bullish wrote:
I disagree that this game was balanced. If this game was played out many many times, I think the town would win 75% of the time or more.

imagine if you gave yama hunter, and we lynched him. Its entirely dependent on who gets the roles. I think the way it played out was optimal based on reads and slips. I think drafter said it perfectly

Between 4 people we got every single mistake you guys made. Now if yama was a hunter and got scum read, it was a free win

Town as a whole played excellently this game I don't deny. We probably would have lost the game anyway if town had a few less roles. But it is still imba.

You can't say this set up is balanced because one of the townies could be suicidal. Yama is 1 person of 9, and he happened to doc the correct person.

The game was set up as a whole on balance. The role block negated the the cop and doc actions if used properly. The role cop gave info. I was set up to miss investigate rev had I not caught it. if mas recruited wrong he was dead. If hunter lynched wrong someone was a free death. It literally was based on the players.
Bullish
Posts: 3,527
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5/1/2015 4:47:11 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 5/1/2015 4:46:18 PM, medic0506 wrote:
At 5/1/2015 4:34:35 PM, Mikal wrote:

What was it in my c/p that you caught, that you thought was off??

Oh my god literally everything.
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Mikal
Posts: 11,270
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5/1/2015 4:48:34 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 5/1/2015 4:46:18 PM, medic0506 wrote:
At 5/1/2015 4:34:35 PM, Mikal wrote:

What was it in my c/p that you caught, that you thought was off??

You had an *are* in it

You win once all the mafia *are* eliminated. The default pm was you win once all the mafia *is* eliminated.
medic0506
Posts: 13,450
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5/1/2015 5:01:51 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 5/1/2015 4:47:11 PM, Bullish wrote:
At 5/1/2015 4:46:18 PM, medic0506 wrote:
At 5/1/2015 4:34:35 PM, Mikal wrote:

What was it in my c/p that you caught, that you thought was off??

Oh my god literally everything.

I know there was no justification, but supposedly there was something besides that.

Drafter said that the role pm would contain 1-3 sentences. If I had fully explained a JOAT claim, it would have gone over that and I'd have been caught anyway. I had to add something to the 1x doc and make it into a JOAT if I was to have a chance of being believable. I was going to get busted either way, for the pm being too long or too short.
Mikal
Posts: 11,270
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5/1/2015 5:02:58 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 5/1/2015 5:01:51 PM, medic0506 wrote:
At 5/1/2015 4:47:11 PM, Bullish wrote:
At 5/1/2015 4:46:18 PM, medic0506 wrote:
At 5/1/2015 4:34:35 PM, Mikal wrote:

What was it in my c/p that you caught, that you thought was off??

Oh my god literally everything.

I know there was no justification, but supposedly there was something besides that.

Drafter said that the role pm would contain 1-3 sentences. If I had fully explained a JOAT claim, it would have gone over that and I'd have been caught anyway. I had to add something to the 1x doc and make it into a JOAT if I was to have a chance of being believable. I was going to get busted either way, for the pm being too long or too short.

the main thing was the *are* and *is* were interchanged
Bullish
Posts: 3,527
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5/1/2015 5:08:20 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 5/1/2015 5:01:51 PM, medic0506 wrote:
At 5/1/2015 4:47:11 PM, Bullish wrote:
At 5/1/2015 4:46:18 PM, medic0506 wrote:
At 5/1/2015 4:34:35 PM, Mikal wrote:

What was it in my c/p that you caught, that you thought was off??

Oh my god literally everything.

I know there was no justification, but supposedly there was something besides that.

Drafter said that the role pm would contain 1-3 sentences. If I had fully explained a JOAT claim, it would have gone over that and I'd have been caught anyway. I had to add something to the 1x doc and make it into a JOAT if I was to have a chance of being believable. I was going to get busted either way, for the pm being too long or too short.

JOAT- You are the JOAT. You have the following abilities: 1x Doctor, 1x Role Cop. You win with the Town. The Town wins when all Mafia are eliminated.

Should have been a space after the first JOAT. Should have explained the function of doc/RC. Should have said "all the Mafia is" instead of "are." It feels like you were high something when you wrote this.
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medic0506
Posts: 13,450
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5/1/2015 5:16:05 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 5/1/2015 4:48:34 PM, Mikal wrote:
At 5/1/2015 4:46:18 PM, medic0506 wrote:
At 5/1/2015 4:34:35 PM, Mikal wrote:

What was it in my c/p that you caught, that you thought was off??

You had an *are* in it

You win once all the mafia *are* eliminated. The default pm was you win once all the mafia *is* eliminated.

This is why c/p should never be allowed, and I'm glad Drafter decided that it probably isn't a good idea to allow it.

I'd like to blame the loss on c/p, but I can't really. I got really pissed when I finally got time to read, and saw that town was using c/p with Rev, and from there I just didn't really care. I was tired, cranky, AND pissed off, in addition to being tired of playing scum AGAIN. I guess I was pretty easy to read as scum, that DP.

Is your browser showing the timestamp in my c/p, because I'm not seeing it?? I was thinking that was what would get us busted.
RevNge
Posts: 13,835
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5/1/2015 7:30:52 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 5/1/2015 4:46:18 PM, medic0506 wrote:
At 5/1/2015 4:34:35 PM, Mikal wrote:

What was it in my c/p that you caught, that you thought was off??

And you were missing the profile card. Seriously, your forging was extremely obvious that it was fabricated.
RevNge
Posts: 13,835
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5/1/2015 7:33:40 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
@Medic, I was honestly really pissed at you for your flash-hammer, how it still took you a while to get lynched, AND how your fake PM, which practically screamed "FAKE" compared to mine, was bought EXCEPT for the "are/is". Dear God.

Whatever, GG Town. If Mafia lasted longer, then they could have had a better chance, but Medic screwed himself already in DP1, and the C/P made the game heavily lean in favor of Town.
Bullish
Posts: 3,527
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5/1/2015 7:39:25 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 5/1/2015 7:30:52 PM, RevNge wrote:
At 5/1/2015 4:46:18 PM, medic0506 wrote:
At 5/1/2015 4:34:35 PM, Mikal wrote:

What was it in my c/p that you caught, that you thought was off??

And you were missing the profile card. Seriously, your forging was extremely obvious that it was fabricated.

Actually that's what it would look like if copied on an iPhone.
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RevNge
Posts: 13,835
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5/1/2015 7:41:50 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 5/1/2015 7:39:25 PM, Bullish wrote:
At 5/1/2015 7:30:52 PM, RevNge wrote:
At 5/1/2015 4:46:18 PM, medic0506 wrote:
At 5/1/2015 4:34:35 PM, Mikal wrote:

What was it in my c/p that you caught, that you thought was off??

And you were missing the profile card. Seriously, your forging was extremely obvious that it was fabricated.

Actually that's what it would look like if copied on an iPhone.

No timestamp or anything? Damn you Juggle.
Skepsikyma
Posts: 8,280
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5/1/2015 10:01:00 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
Wow, this ended quickly. Great job F-16, Mikal, and XLAV, you carried town through DP2. Also, good job Yama on docing F-16. Bullish is right, however, about both of your play styles. Yama is all over the place, and Mikal is more measured but stubborn; his read on me being a big example. If I had a raging scum read on a player whom I have a bad history of reading, and all of my biggest town reads, who have a much better history of reading that player, said that he was town, I would start to question my own scum read. While this has sometimes led me to back off of scum (Ore in Borderlands, Dalt in SURPRISE), it has much more often allowed me to focus my reads, and has allowed town as a whole to form a block around consensus reads. In fact, my scum read on Mikal subsided after the mason recruit and Rev's flip precisely because I put more faith in F-16 and XLAV's ability to read him than in my own.

I agree that scum can't blame c/p. The template was given in the first DP; if I were scum, and I was told that c/p was allowed, the first thing that I would do in the scum PM would be to hammer out and vet a series of fake claims for correct formatting, and then have them at the ready.

Rev shouldn't have fake claimed, that was unnecessary as survivor.

Sorry Bullish, I wish we would have had more of a fight.
"The Collectivist experiment is thoroughly suited (in appearance at least) to the Capitalist society which it proposes to replace. It works with the existing machinery of Capitalism, talks and thinks in the existing terms of Capitalism, appeals to just those appetites which Capitalism has aroused, and ridicules as fantastic and unheard-of just those things in society the memory of which Capitalism has killed among men wherever the blight of it has spread."
- Hilaire Belloc -
Bullish
Posts: 3,527
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5/1/2015 10:43:08 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 5/1/2015 10:01:00 PM, Skepsikyma wrote:

Sorry Bullish, I wish we would have had more of a fight.

http://www.debate.org...

You beat me lol.
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Skepsikyma
Posts: 8,280
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5/1/2015 10:54:16 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 5/1/2015 10:43:08 PM, Bullish wrote:
At 5/1/2015 10:01:00 PM, Skepsikyma wrote:

Sorry Bullish, I wish we would have had more of a fight.

http://www.debate.org...

You beat me lol.

Lol, but it wasn't much of a fight. It would have been more exiting if it had lasted longer.
"The Collectivist experiment is thoroughly suited (in appearance at least) to the Capitalist society which it proposes to replace. It works with the existing machinery of Capitalism, talks and thinks in the existing terms of Capitalism, appeals to just those appetites which Capitalism has aroused, and ridicules as fantastic and unheard-of just those things in society the memory of which Capitalism has killed among men wherever the blight of it has spread."
- Hilaire Belloc -
Khaos_Mage
Posts: 23,214
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5/1/2015 11:24:29 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 5/1/2015 7:30:52 PM, RevNge wrote:
BTW, Rev, kudos on your attempt to deceive, but it was obvious you were scum, IMO.

The flaw of your plan is twofold:
1. If you were dreamer, then you'd have to assume that in a nine player game, there is no cop, because if there is, you're dead.
2. Claiming to be roleblocked when you aren't is likely to raise suspicion by mafia. Town would likely admit to visiting you, or even roleblocking you, and mafia won't say they are mafia, so you'd lie to town, which exposes you to mafia. They may not NK you, but they may as well, assuming you aren't CC'd.
My work here is, finally, done.
RevNge
Posts: 13,835
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5/2/2015 11:11:28 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 5/1/2015 11:24:29 PM, Khaos_Mage wrote:
At 5/1/2015 7:30:52 PM, RevNge wrote:
BTW, Rev, kudos on your attempt to deceive, but it was obvious you were scum, IMO.

The flaw of your plan is twofold:
1. If you were dreamer, then you'd have to assume that in a nine player game, there is no cop, because if there is, you're dead.

Here's the catch though: I really was planning to claim DP2, and my real role--Survivor, while saying that I was genuinely scum hunting and believed that Medic/Bullish/Skep (two out of the three) were scum. I didn't want to claim Survivor DP1 because I thought that players might think I was the best lynch with all the uncertainty going on.
2. Claiming to be roleblocked when you aren't is likely to raise suspicion by mafia. Town would likely admit to visiting you, or even roleblocking you, and mafia won't say they are mafia, so you'd lie to town, which exposes you to mafia. They may not NK you, but they may as well, assuming you aren't CC'd.

Yeah, but there are other good players that they should prioritize NK'ing, even if I do happen to be dreamer. They could just visit me to negate my role for the night.