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Mafia Modding advice

F-16_Fighting_Falcon
Posts: 18,324
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6/6/2015 7:17:51 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
The prime focus when modding should be on creating a balanced game over and above commitments to the theme, using unique and powerful roles, and using a large quantity of roles for the town. To assess balance, consider two things: how can town lose the game and how can scum lose the game.

== Town Loss ==

Town loses the game through mislynches (and no lynches if people still do them). If town only mislynches a few times and still loses, they would feel cheated out of a victory because they simply did not make enough mistakes collectively to deserve that loss. A good way to balance this is to ensure that the number of mislynches town has before a loss is roughly equal to the number of scum. For instance, consider a 9-player game. It allows 2 mislynches before the third one results in a loss. A balanced 9 player game would have 2 scum. A balanced 13 player game would have 3 scum. It also allows town 3 mislynches before the 4th one causes town to lose. Mafiascum for instance almost always preserves this ratio in most games. The largest problem on DDO is that there are too many scum.

Pantheon - 14 players: 10 town, 3 mafia, 1 third party. Right away you can see that having a third party upsets the balance. If the third party wasn't there, the game would have been balanced.

Themeless - 9 players: 6 town, 2 mafia, 1 third party. A similar problem. The third party needs to be lynched which reduces the number of mistakes town are allowed to two. With two mislynches, a loss is guaranteed if the third party sides with scum.

TV Tropes II - 13 players: 9 town, 3 mafia, 1 third party. A very similar problem but magnified when the third party wincon could potentially lead them to leading multiple mislynches.

In all of the games, the problem is similar. Town loses too fast. It is difficult enough to get town to reach a concensus on lynching someone and allowing so few mislynches before a loss imbalances it in favor of mafia.

== Scum Loss ==

Now consider the other side, how do scum lose the game? Scum will lose when all of them are lynched or in other words, with a nominally competent town, they will lose when enough townies are "confirmed" such that POE will lead to them. If town has a cop, tracker, doc, Mason recruiter, bodyguard, watcher, and so on, nearly all the living townies will be "confirmed" sooner or later. Town simply lynches from the remaining and auto-win.

This was the major problem with Themeless. Nearly every townie was confirmable. There were no flavors to trip up the town. Predictably, town won a perfect victory. Even without the townies having decent reads, nine times out of ten, the setup would have ended in a perfect victory for town. Look at this setup:

Town
1. Cop
2. 1x Mason Recruiter
3. Tracker
4. Doctor
5. Bodyguard
6. Hunter

Mafia
7. Roleblocker
8. Rolecop

Third Party
9. Survivor

It is utterly improbable for town to lose. So, how can this be balanced? Replace most of the town roles with vanilla townies. Eliminate the third party. So, let's say you have:

6 vanilla townies
1 1-shot cop
2 mafia goons

That's a heck of a lot more balanced game.

The setup for TV Tropes was somewhat smarter. It didn't fall into the traps that so many mods on DDO fall into - give the town obscene amount of power.

Playing scum is already hard. You don't need to stack the odds against them by making most players power roles. Don't be afraid to use vanillas. In a balanced game, 2/3rds of your town roles should be vanillas. If it is a 13 player game with 10 townies, use 6-7 vanillas and 3-4 power roles. What mods instead do is use 9 power roles and 1 vanilla. C'mon guys. That doesn't give a decent scumteam a chance of winning.

What fun is mafia if you have a metric ton of roles to give you all the answers you need? The point of the game is to identify mafia through behavioral analysis with maybe an investigation or two to help you narrow the scumteam down and give them their own challenge in whether they want the investigators gone or the biggest threats gone.

So, will a game be balanced if there is a greater ratio of scum and a large number of PRs as is the norm on DDO? Not really. What it causes is a lot of swing. It relies almost primarily on role results and luck rather than skill. It may be balanced as in giving both sides a chance of winning but the result will be the luck of the draw, not a drawn out process where superior analysis of the town or skillful manipulation by the scum determines the victor.

Third parties

Finally, what is the role of third parties in balanced games? I'll classify them into four categories: survivor/non-threatening, serial killer, cult, and custom.

== Survivor/Non-threatening ==

Here's what happens when someone outs as a survivor.
Player A: We should lynch them.
Player B: No, survivors aren't mafia. They should be left alive.
Player C: I agree with A. Mafia are a priority. You are scum for hunting third parties, rawr!
Player D: I agree with B. What happens at LYLO? Will they not side with the scum?

and so on. Ad infinitum. It is the most pointless types of headaches I've ever experienced in a game. Mods, if you are legit putting survivors in games, stop it. Stop it please. What do you hope to get out of it? Must the town lynch them? Or not? Are you going to give them first place? Or joint win?

== Serial Killer ==

A little more palatable than survivor since town considers them a threat and nonsense discussion will be avoided. But still - it creates a lot of swing. Serial killers help large games because they make them go faster. But including serial killers because they fit the theme or because you dreamt up a cool role for them really backfires and unbalances the game more often than not. Personally, it is a no go for me. I wouldn't have one in any of my games.

== Cult ==

Do I even need to say anything? Just don't. Not even a 1X recruit. Why? The outcome of the game is pretty much determined randomly by who gets recruited. I'm sure that your chosen theme has a *fantastic*character that is perfectly suited to be the cult leader. But don't. Not at the expense of balance. Mods need to understand that balance outweighs *any* and all thematic considerations.

== Unique third party role ==

I hate these just as much as the other three. 90% of the time, they are included with no regard to balance. I can at least sympathize that people want to experiment with new roles but 9 times out of 10, it takes away from the enjoyment of the game rather than adds to it. Mafia is not enjoyable because of its unique roles. It is enjoyable because it is a social game of trying to deceive and spot the liars.

So, as a mod, how do you make it enjoyable? Above all, make the game balanced. Know your numbers. Put in lots of vanilla townies. If it is a theme game, pick your roles carefully. Don't make them too powerful. Just make them somewhat fun but low powered. X-shot roles are good too. Don't fall into the trap that every powerful character on the theme should have a wonderful role. Balance is key. Limit the number of confirmable roles and confirmations to just a few.

Finally, provide mafia with fake character claims if the theme has a low to moderate number of characters. *DO NOT* leave 3 main characters open and expect the scum to fake-claim those three characters. If you are not giving fake-claims, you should leave at least 3 times the number of main characters open as there are scum in the game. So with three scum, leave 9 main characters open and use the rest for townies.
FourTrouble
Posts: 12,758
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6/8/2015 9:36:35 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
I agree with all of this, and feel particularly strongly about ratios. Mafia should need to survive more mislynches than they are numbered. That's at the very least a basic standard for balance that isn't followed here and should be.
RevNge
Posts: 13,835
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6/8/2015 12:30:47 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 6/8/2015 11:52:55 AM, EndarkenedRationalist wrote:
We left behind the days of a 10 player game, 7 vanillas, 1 cop, 1 goon, and 1 godfather for a reason. It sucked.

I wonder if anyone would sign up for a bastard game with this setup.

Town:
1 Random Cop (result is randomized between innocent and guilty)
1 Suicidal JOAT with every single NP role (automatically dies at the end of DP1)
1 Naive Bulletproof (told to be BP but actually isn't)
1 Weak Vigilante (dies when trying to kill someone)
1 Brutal Doctor (kills someone instead of protecting them)
1 Redirected (for the lack of the name of the flavor) Mimic (always gets Suicidal Townie regardless of the target)
1 Naive Popular (told to be Popular but actually isn't)
1 Naive Gunsmith (gives out guns who kill the user in the DP)

Mafia:
1 Weak Strongman (dies when he tries to kill someone)
1 Naive Suicide Bomber (for teh lulz)
1 Healing Redirector (only role that works properly in the game, but protects instead of killing targets)

TP:
1 Naive Jester
FourTrouble
Posts: 12,758
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6/8/2015 2:33:48 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 6/8/2015 11:50:55 AM, EndarkenedRationalist wrote:
This makes for incredibly boring set-ups.

No. It makes for balanced games that actually require skill. It's like comparing traditional chess to Chess960. Traditional chess is more balanced, fun, and skill-based. Just because it's been played millions upon millions of times doesn't mean it's boring. What makes the game fun is its core skills -- in chess, positional strategy; in mafia, behavioral analysis and deception. Changing the roles or starting setup (in chess) doesn't make the game more interesting -- it just makes it imbalanced and after a couple games, far more boring because of how much more random it is.
EndarkenedRationalist
Posts: 14,201
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6/8/2015 2:38:55 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 6/8/2015 2:33:48 PM, FourTrouble wrote:
At 6/8/2015 11:50:55 AM, EndarkenedRationalist wrote:
This makes for incredibly boring set-ups.

No. It makes for balanced games that actually require skill. It's like comparing traditional chess to Chess960. Traditional chess is more balanced, fun, and skill-based. Just because it's been played millions upon millions of times doesn't mean it's boring. What makes the game fun is its core skills -- in chess, positional strategy; in mafia, behavioral analysis and deception. Changing the roles or starting setup (in chess) doesn't make the game more interesting -- it just makes it imbalanced and after a couple games, far more boring because of how much more random it is.

A truly randomized game (in terms of roles) isn't balanced, but deliberate calculation of roles makes balance possible and the game more enjoyable. Balance is quantitative. The ratios exist in both roles, and the roles add complexity and depth to the game. It's another layer for strategy and analysis, especially when roles aren't inherently trustworthy. A bland set-up is always town-sided because, with a competent town, mafia will never win.
SolonKR
Posts: 4,041
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6/8/2015 3:11:31 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
I agree with 90% of this. The 10% I don't agree with--that role madness games aren't as fun and are imbalanced--I suppose I will take as a challenge. Challenge accepted :D
SO to Bailey, the love of my life <3
FourTrouble
Posts: 12,758
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6/8/2015 4:36:53 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 6/8/2015 2:38:55 PM, EndarkenedRationalist wrote:
A truly randomized game (in terms of roles) isn't balanced, but deliberate calculation of roles makes balance possible and the game more enjoyable.

A balanced setup is fun. Roles make balance harder but if the game's balanced, I don't care what roles it has. You're missing F-16's point, which is about playing a balanced game rather than a random game.

Balance is quantitative. The ratios exist in both roles, and the roles add complexity and depth to the game. It's another layer for strategy and analysis, especially when roles aren't inherently trustworthy.

Yes, it's another tool the town can use for scumhunting. Balancing this so that mafia doesn't get fvcked through process of elimination is quite difficult. Basically, roles shift focus from behaviors to results and mod speculation. I'd rather play against the mafia than against the mod. But that's me. Others prefer playing against the mod. Either way, it's a different game. Neither is inherently more complex. Behavioral analysis is just as complex and difficult as role analysis.

A bland set-up is always town-sided because, with a competent town, mafia will never win.

Really? Explain this to me. How do vanilla games make it impossible for mafia to win?
ESocialBookworm
Posts: 14,361
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6/8/2015 4:42:40 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 6/8/2015 12:30:47 PM, RevNge wrote:
At 6/8/2015 11:52:55 AM, EndarkenedRationalist wrote:
We left behind the days of a 10 player game, 7 vanillas, 1 cop, 1 goon, and 1 godfather for a reason. It sucked.

I wonder if anyone would sign up for a bastard game with this setup.

Town:
1 Random Cop (result is randomized between innocent and guilty)
1 Suicidal JOAT with every single NP role (automatically dies at the end of DP1)
1 Naive Bulletproof (told to be BP but actually isn't)
1 Weak Vigilante (dies when trying to kill someone)
1 Brutal Doctor (kills someone instead of protecting them)
1 Redirected (for the lack of the name of the flavor) Mimic (always gets Suicidal Townie regardless of the target)
1 Naive Popular (told to be Popular but actually isn't)
1 Naive Gunsmith (gives out guns who kill the user in the DP)

Mafia:
1 Weak Strongman (dies when he tries to kill someone)
1 Naive Suicide Bomber (for teh lulz)
1 Healing Redirector (only role that works properly in the game, but protects instead of killing targets)

TP:
1 Naive Jester

/in
Solonkr~
I don't care about whether an ideology is "necessary" or not,
I care about how to solve problems,
which is what everyone else should also care about.

Ken~
In essence, the world is fucked up and you can either ignore it, become cynical or bitter about it.

Me~
"BAILEY + SOLON = SAILEY
MY SHIP SAILEY MUST SAIL"

SCREW THAT SHIZ #BANNIE = BAILEY & ANNIE

P.S. Shipped Sailey before it was cannon bitches.
EndarkenedRationalist
Posts: 14,201
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6/8/2015 4:49:29 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 6/8/2015 4:36:53 PM, FourTrouble wrote:
At 6/8/2015 2:38:55 PM, EndarkenedRationalist wrote:
A truly randomized game (in terms of roles) isn't balanced, but deliberate calculation of roles makes balance possible and the game more enjoyable.

A balanced setup is fun. Roles make balance harder but if the game's balanced, I don't care what roles it has. You're missing F-16's point, which is about playing a balanced game rather than a random game.

F-16's point was that games with many roles can't be balanced. Not to mention a complete shafting of TPs.

Balance is quantitative. The ratios exist in both roles, and the roles add complexity and depth to the game. It's another layer for strategy and analysis, especially when roles aren't inherently trustworthy.

Yes, it's another tool the town can use for scumhunting. Balancing this so that mafia doesn't get fvcked through process of elimination is quite difficult. Basically, roles shift focus from behaviors to results and mod speculation. I'd rather play against the mafia than against the mod. But that's me. Others prefer playing against the mod. Either way, it's a different game. Neither is inherently more complex. Behavioral analysis is just as complex and difficult as role analysis.

It's not that role analysis is more complex than behavior analysis; it's that a game with both is more complex than a vanilla game. In games with many roles, the primary focus still is (or ought to be) on behavior. Roles simply make it more interesting because roles shift behavior. A vanilla townie has nothing to fear; a cop does.

A bland set-up is always town-sided because, with a competent town, mafia will never win.

Really? Explain this to me. How do vanilla games make it impossible for mafia to win?

Vanilla games with competent towns. Mafia will never or almost never be able to engineer enough mislynches to win. Not with this player pool.
FourTrouble
Posts: 12,758
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6/8/2015 4:57:18 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 6/8/2015 4:49:29 PM, EndarkenedRationalist wrote:
It's not that role analysis is more complex than behavior analysis; it's that a game with both is more complex than a vanilla game. In games with many roles, the primary focus still is (or ought to be) on behavior. Roles simply make it more interesting because roles shift behavior. A vanilla townie has nothing to fear; a cop does.

A game with roles isn't more complex. The focus shifts. Players stop discussing behaviors and discuss roles instead. If you think the primary focus is behaviors in a role madness game on DDO, you're totally wrong.

Vanilla games with competent towns. Mafia will never or almost never be able to engineer enough mislynches to win. Not with this player pool.

Are you kidding? If me and F-16 were mafia in a purely vanilla game against 10 townies on DDO, I bet $100 bucks mafia wins. Engineering mislynches is simply a matter of outplaying the town, which means appearing *more* town than them.
EndarkenedRationalist
Posts: 14,201
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6/8/2015 4:59:25 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 6/8/2015 4:57:18 PM, FourTrouble wrote:
At 6/8/2015 4:49:29 PM, EndarkenedRationalist wrote:
It's not that role analysis is more complex than behavior analysis; it's that a game with both is more complex than a vanilla game. In games with many roles, the primary focus still is (or ought to be) on behavior. Roles simply make it more interesting because roles shift behavior. A vanilla townie has nothing to fear; a cop does.

A game with roles isn't more complex. The focus shifts. Players stop discussing behaviors and discuss roles instead. If you think the primary focus is behaviors in a role madness game on DDO, you're totally wrong.

Yes, it is more complex, because people need to take roles into account as well as behaviors.

Vanilla games with competent towns. Mafia will never or almost never be able to engineer enough mislynches to win. Not with this player pool.

Are you kidding? If me and F-16 were mafia in a purely vanilla game against 10 townies on DDO, I bet $100 bucks mafia wins. Engineering mislynches is simply a matter of outplaying the town, which means appearing *more* town than them.

I'd likely take that bet, since you haven't won a game as scum in ages here. I recall you getting lynched as scum not long ago, in fact.
EndarkenedRationalist
Posts: 14,201
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6/8/2015 5:03:02 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
FT, you realize almost every player here adheres to the rule: role confirmation =\= affiliation? People realize the importance of analyzing behavior as well.
9spaceking
Posts: 4,213
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6/8/2015 5:58:54 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 6/8/2015 4:42:40 PM, ESocialBookworm wrote:
At 6/8/2015 12:30:47 PM, RevNge wrote:
At 6/8/2015 11:52:55 AM, EndarkenedRationalist wrote:
We left behind the days of a 10 player game, 7 vanillas, 1 cop, 1 goon, and 1 godfather for a reason. It sucked.

I wonder if anyone would sign up for a bastard game with this setup.

Town:
1 Random Cop (result is randomized between innocent and guilty)
1 Suicidal JOAT with every single NP role (automatically dies at the end of DP1)
1 Naive Bulletproof (told to be BP but actually isn't)
1 Weak Vigilante (dies when trying to kill someone)
1 Brutal Doctor (kills someone instead of protecting them)
1 Redirected (for the lack of the name of the flavor) Mimic (always gets Suicidal Townie regardless of the target)
1 Naive Popular (told to be Popular but actually isn't)
1 Naive Gunsmith (gives out guns who kill the user in the DP)

Mafia:
1 Weak Strongman (dies when he tries to kill someone)
1 Naive Suicide Bomber (for teh lulz)
1 Healing Redirector (only role that works properly in the game, but protects instead of killing targets)

TP:
1 Naive Jester

/in
The dumbest set-up of all time.
Equestrian election
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This House would impose democracy
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Reign of Terror is unjustified
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Raise min. wage to $10.10
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RevNge
Posts: 13,835
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6/8/2015 6:00:54 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 6/8/2015 4:42:40 PM, ESocialBookworm wrote:
At 6/8/2015 12:30:47 PM, RevNge wrote:
At 6/8/2015 11:52:55 AM, EndarkenedRationalist wrote:
We left behind the days of a 10 player game, 7 vanillas, 1 cop, 1 goon, and 1 godfather for a reason. It sucked.

I wonder if anyone would sign up for a bastard game with this setup.

Town:
1 Random Cop (result is randomized between innocent and guilty)
1 Suicidal JOAT with every single NP role (automatically dies at the end of DP1)
1 Naive Bulletproof (told to be BP but actually isn't)
1 Weak Vigilante (dies when trying to kill someone)
1 Brutal Doctor (kills someone instead of protecting them)
1 Redirected (for the lack of the name of the flavor) Mimic (always gets Suicidal Townie regardless of the target)
1 Naive Popular (told to be Popular but actually isn't)
1 Naive Gunsmith (gives out guns who kill the user in the DP)

Mafia:
1 Weak Strongman (dies when he tries to kill someone)
1 Naive Suicide Bomber (for teh lulz)
1 Healing Redirector (only role that works properly in the game, but protects instead of killing targets)

TP:
1 Naive Jester

/in

Which would you like to be? ;)
FourTrouble
Posts: 12,758
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6/8/2015 6:20:16 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 6/8/2015 4:59:25 PM, EndarkenedRationalist wrote:
I'd likely take that bet, since you haven't won a game as scum in ages here. I recall you getting lynched as scum not long ago, in fact.

You recall wrongly.

The last time I was scum, I was widely townread by the entire town, including bluesteel. And note, I wasn't just townread. I was a strong townread. And I was not ever lynched. I was killed at night by another scum faction.

The game before that, I was also widely townread on D1, including by F-16, when I was actually playing the game. I stopped playing on D2 and asked to be replaced. I was lynched after quitting the game.

I was also scum in a recent beginner game where I claimed miller on D1, right away, said nothing else, and skated to an easy win. I knew that'd work on beginners and it did.

In a vanilla game, I think I'd be good as mafia. I think if F-16 or BV or Maikuru were my partner, I'd be even better, because I'd have the incentive to put in the effort. We'd plan through things. We'd take over the game, and lead the town to its own death, all the while being the strong townreads. I'm capable of getting people lynched, even as scum, as I've pushed F-16's mislynch before on D1. I've pushed mislynches on all the good players.

F-16's also fvcking incredible as scum, even though he'll tell you he's not, but he is. If we're partners in a vanilla game, I have a hard time seeing town on DDO win, unless there's some seriously good townies in the game. And even then, we'd kill those guys off.
ESocialBookworm
Posts: 14,361
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6/8/2015 6:32:15 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 6/8/2015 6:00:54 PM, RevNge wrote:
At 6/8/2015 4:42:40 PM, ESocialBookworm wrote:
At 6/8/2015 12:30:47 PM, RevNge wrote:
At 6/8/2015 11:52:55 AM, EndarkenedRationalist wrote:
We left behind the days of a 10 player game, 7 vanillas, 1 cop, 1 goon, and 1 godfather for a reason. It sucked.

I wonder if anyone would sign up for a bastard game with this setup.

Town:
1 Random Cop (result is randomized between innocent and guilty)
1 Suicidal JOAT with every single NP role (automatically dies at the end of DP1)
1 Naive Bulletproof (told to be BP but actually isn't)
1 Weak Vigilante (dies when trying to kill someone)
1 Brutal Doctor (kills someone instead of protecting them)
1 Redirected (for the lack of the name of the flavor) Mimic (always gets Suicidal Townie regardless of the target)
1 Naive Popular (told to be Popular but actually isn't)
1 Naive Gunsmith (gives out guns who kill the user in the DP)

Mafia:
1 Weak Strongman (dies when he tries to kill someone)
1 Naive Suicide Bomber (for teh lulz)
1 Healing Redirector (only role that works properly in the game, but protects instead of killing targets)

TP:
1 Naive Jester

/in

Which would you like to be? ;)

GS
I'll send a gun to Joey
Solonkr~
I don't care about whether an ideology is "necessary" or not,
I care about how to solve problems,
which is what everyone else should also care about.

Ken~
In essence, the world is fucked up and you can either ignore it, become cynical or bitter about it.

Me~
"BAILEY + SOLON = SAILEY
MY SHIP SAILEY MUST SAIL"

SCREW THAT SHIZ #BANNIE = BAILEY & ANNIE

P.S. Shipped Sailey before it was cannon bitches.
RevNge
Posts: 13,835
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6/8/2015 6:33:01 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 6/8/2015 6:32:15 PM, ESocialBookworm wrote:
At 6/8/2015 6:00:54 PM, RevNge wrote:
At 6/8/2015 4:42:40 PM, ESocialBookworm wrote:
At 6/8/2015 12:30:47 PM, RevNge wrote:
At 6/8/2015 11:52:55 AM, EndarkenedRationalist wrote:
We left behind the days of a 10 player game, 7 vanillas, 1 cop, 1 goon, and 1 godfather for a reason. It sucked.

I wonder if anyone would sign up for a bastard game with this setup.

Town:
1 Random Cop (result is randomized between innocent and guilty)
1 Suicidal JOAT with every single NP role (automatically dies at the end of DP1)
1 Naive Bulletproof (told to be BP but actually isn't)
1 Weak Vigilante (dies when trying to kill someone)
1 Brutal Doctor (kills someone instead of protecting them)
1 Redirected (for the lack of the name of the flavor) Mimic (always gets Suicidal Townie regardless of the target)
1 Naive Popular (told to be Popular but actually isn't)
1 Naive Gunsmith (gives out guns who kill the user in the DP)

Mafia:
1 Weak Strongman (dies when he tries to kill someone)
1 Naive Suicide Bomber (for teh lulz)
1 Healing Redirector (only role that works properly in the game, but protects instead of killing targets)

TP:
1 Naive Jester

/in

Which would you like to be? ;)

GS
I'll send a gun to Joey

roflmao
EndarkenedRationalist
Posts: 14,201
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6/8/2015 7:07:56 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 6/8/2015 6:20:16 PM, FourTrouble wrote:
At 6/8/2015 4:59:25 PM, EndarkenedRationalist wrote:
I'd likely take that bet, since you haven't won a game as scum in ages here. I recall you getting lynched as scum not long ago, in fact.

You recall wrongly.

The last time I was scum, I was widely townread by the entire town, including bluesteel. And note, I wasn't just townread. I was a strong townread. And I was not ever lynched. I was killed at night by another scum faction.

Hm. Don't recall that game.

The game before that, I was also widely townread on D1, including by F-16, when I was actually playing the game. I stopped playing on D2 and asked to be replaced. I was lynched after quitting the game.

It's not hard to be town-read DP1. I've managed it every single time I've been scum (since I learned to play). Including by F-16 and BV.

I was also scum in a recent beginner game where I claimed miller on D1, right away, said nothing else, and skated to an easy win. I knew that'd work on beginners and it did.

Eh. Beginners. They're learning.

In a vanilla game, I think I'd be good as mafia. I think if F-16 or BV or Maikuru were my partner, I'd be even better, because I'd have the incentive to put in the effort. We'd plan through things. We'd take over the game, and lead the town to its own death, all the while being the strong townreads. I'm capable of getting people lynched, even as scum, as I've pushed F-16's mislynch before on D1. I've pushed mislynches on all the good players.

I think you'd all be very good, don't get me wrong. All of you are excellent mafia players. But I don't think you'd win.

F-16's also fvcking incredible as scum, even though he'll tell you he's not, but he is. If we're partners in a vanilla game, I have a hard time seeing town on DDO win, unless there's some seriously good townies in the game. And even then, we'd kill those guys off.
RevNge
Posts: 13,835
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6/8/2015 7:18:42 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 6/8/2015 7:07:56 PM, EndarkenedRationalist wrote:
At 6/8/2015 6:20:16 PM, FourTrouble wrote:
At 6/8/2015 4:59:25 PM, EndarkenedRationalist wrote:
I'd likely take that bet, since you haven't won a game as scum in ages here. I recall you getting lynched as scum not long ago, in fact.

You recall wrongly.

The last time I was scum, I was widely townread by the entire town, including bluesteel. And note, I wasn't just townread. I was a strong townread. And I was not ever lynched. I was killed at night by another scum faction.

Hm. Don't recall that game.

I think it was Borderlands...not sure, though.
F-16_Fighting_Falcon
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6/8/2015 9:58:49 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 6/8/2015 6:20:16 PM, FourTrouble wrote:

Just FYI, I don't share FT's viewpoint that I'd win if I were scum because everyone knows me and they know my meta and they'd know that I'm scum.

As for FT himself, I'm inclined to agree. He wins the majority of his scumgames because he has a lot of range as scum - meaning his strategic options are very wide. He wouldn't just narrow himself to a single strategy.

Although the time you got me mislynched was also the game where the scumteam got mauled so lol. 1 mislynch for 3 back-to-back scum lynches and town victory.
FourTrouble
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6/9/2015 1:56:38 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 6/8/2015 9:58:49 PM, F-16_Fighting_Falcon wrote:
At 6/8/2015 6:20:16 PM, FourTrouble wrote:

Just FYI, I don't share FT's viewpoint that I'd win if I were scum because everyone knows me and they know my meta and they'd know that I'm scum.

C'mon F-16... you've not only completely tricked me as scum, you've tricked everyone on this site and, I'm guessing, on mafiascum too. You're one of the best players as scum. You might give off scumtells that seem obvious to you, but nobody else is seeing them. Trust me on that.

As for FT himself, I'm inclined to agree. He wins the majority of his scumgames because he has a lot of range as scum - meaning his strategic options are very wide. He wouldn't just narrow himself to a single strategy.

This is very generous. Thank you for the compliment.

Although the time you got me mislynched was also the game where the scumteam got mauled so lol. 1 mislynch for 3 back-to-back scum lynches and town victory.

lol that game was hilarious. I literally lied about your meta, and I figured nobody would check the facts.... and lol nobody checked. People just believed me, even though you were telling them how wrong I was. You replacing back in kinda fvcked the mafia in some ways, because you KNEW that I lied. Of course, in retrospect, it was terrible play as scum. But I think it had value in terms of showing how mafia can push and dictate lynches. That game, Yraelz and I decided to mislynch you before the game started, so... it shows that mafia can manufacture lynches of their choices if need be, including on players like you, who are so obviously town most of the time. Mafia can outplay the town in vanilla games, and that's a key aspect of everthing you're saying.
F-16_Fighting_Falcon
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6/9/2015 2:36:56 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 6/8/2015 4:49:29 PM, EndarkenedRationalist wrote:
F-16's point was that games with many roles can't be balanced. Not to mention a complete shafting of TPs.

Games with many powerful roles often make the game extremely swingy because usage of those roles could be crucial in determining the winner. In a game with few roles and ones that are not very powerful makes it less swingy and more predictable. When balancing games, you want something that's predictable and has a narrow range of outcomes. You don't want the possibility that the game could end NP1 with a scum win and could DP2 with a town win as long as everyone in the respective factions uses their roles optimally. Because you are pretty much relying on how those roles are used and that takes away opportunities for analysis and opportnities to actually play the game in the DP.
F-16_Fighting_Falcon
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6/9/2015 2:43:33 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
And yeah, it is about time mods stop putting third parties into games especially when in most recent games the presence of third parties made the game unbalanced.

Even if mods do put in third parties, they should really stop using "survivor" roles. That is the single worst role ever dreamed up by mods of mafia games. What fun is there of a 10 page long argument of "should we lynch the survivor or shouldn't we?"
headphonegut
Posts: 4,122
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6/9/2015 2:48:26 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
What system do you use on Resolving Night Actions?
crying to soldiers coming home to their dogs why do I torment myself with these videos?
TUF
Posts: 21,309
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6/9/2015 8:55:38 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
F-16, I agree with the OP. I wish more players were mature enough to see it that way then the few that have posted here though. It seems when you do try and set up a fair, and balanced game, players complain that the game is "boring" and the game goes inactive but for a few players who take the game seriously. This is why I said I would like to play another game with some of the old dogs like you, BV, bluesteel, drafter, etc.
"I've got to go and grab a shirt" ~ Airmax1227
RevNge
Posts: 13,835
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6/9/2015 9:18:45 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 6/9/2015 2:43:33 AM, F-16_Fighting_Falcon wrote:
And yeah, it is about time mods stop putting third parties into games especially when in most recent games the presence of third parties made the game unbalanced.

Even if mods do put in third parties, they should really stop using "survivor" roles. That is the single worst role ever dreamed up by mods of mafia games. What fun is there of a 10 page long argument of "should we lynch the survivor or shouldn't we?"

What about a Naive Jester? ;D