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Making Friends and Enemies Endgame

F-16_Fighting_Falcon
Posts: 18,324
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10/9/2015 4:21:16 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
Mafia Win
FourTrouble2, SolonKR, Lucky_Luciano

Dead
1. Valkrin1 - Vanilla Townie - Lynched DP1
2. FourTrouble1 - Vanilla Townie - Killed NP1
3. Skepsikyma - Vanilla Townie - Lynched DP2
4. Discipulus_Didicit - Town Mason - Killed NP2
5. Lucky_Luciano - Mafia Goon - Lynched DP3
6. The-Voice-of-Truth - Town Mason - Killed NP3
7. Valkrin2 (replaced TUF) - Vanilla Townie - Lynched DP4
8. OberHerr - Vanilla Townie - Killed NP4
9. SolonKR - Mafia Goon - Lynched DP5
10. Hoppi - Vanilla Townie - Killed NP5
11. Midnight1131 - Vanilla Townie - Lynched DP6
12. Wylted - Vanilla Townie - Endgamed DP6

Alive
1. FourTrouble2 (replaced XLAV)

Analysis: I think it started off strong but the lack of motivation from the town to figure things out was disappointing. Besides Lucky who was a lucky investigation, town consistently mislynched. Even after Lucky was dead, looking at interactions would have pointed to FT2, who consistently defended Lucky despite the original FT being unsure. The SolonKR lynch came almost as a lucky shot but Hoppi had a good gut. LYLO was near unwinnable because neither townie even considered voting FT. Mafia played decent enough to take home the win. FT put in a good effort as town when he was in the game. The Masons put in effort as well. But Mafia kept killing all the sensible townies and ended up with an easy win.
FourTrouble
Posts: 12,757
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10/9/2015 6:24:33 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 10/9/2015 4:36:41 PM, XLAV wrote:
Watching FT play scum was interesting.

Honestly, he's not that hard to catch, lol.

I'm obvious once you know I'm scum, because my motives are very obvious. But I do that cause I know clueless townies won't catch it. Only good players will see the pattern of pro-scum play as scummy.
SolonKR
Posts: 4,041
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10/9/2015 6:42:05 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
It was a well-modded game, which just made the outcome even sadder. The ending was as bad as Illusionists, though props to Hoppi for making genuine scum hunting efforts in the penultimate DP. Sure, it was a bit lucky, but his reasoning I found solid.

1. FourTrouble, 2. XLAV, 3. OberHerr, 4. SolonKR, 5. Midnight1131, 6. The-Voice-of-Truth, 8. Discipulus_Didicit, 9. Wylted
1. SolonKR & Unknown Player, 2. OberHerr, 3. The-Voice-of-Truth, 6. Discipulus_Didicit, 7. XLAV, 10. Midnight1131, 12. Wylted, 13. FourTrouble

Something interesting to note is that 9 of the players in the games played in both. Certainly, not all of these players were inactive, but many were. Maybe a 1-game-at-a-time policy would be helpful.

As for my inactivity in the last two games (I can finally speak about this):
I was really annoyed at playing two scum games at a time (three with the Beginner's Series), but I didn't replace out because I didn't want to set a precedent (or get me on the blacklist of mods, since I made a commitment to play).
More importantly, though, I didn't replace out because I didn't see a need for any more activity. As scum, I tend to be as active as I think I need to be in order to win a game (thus me not posting at all near the end of Illusionists, but me being the most active player in Game of Thrones in every DP except the two that I knew I wasn't in danger for); I knew once we hit LYLO that FT would carry it, and his bus of me sealed the deal nicely. The fact that I was inactive speaks to large problems with the town. Obviously, I'm not exempt, as I just happened to get scum in both games, and I would be victim to everything town was except perhaps inactivity as town. However, I think it's safe to say that, as a town, collectively, with 10 games lost in a row:

tl;dr We can't scum hunt. I was planning on stopping playing for a bit, but someone needs to reform the playing style on this site. I'm going to start pushing for policy lynches on inactives at the very least.
SO to Bailey, the love of my life <3
SolonKR
Posts: 4,041
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10/9/2015 6:55:42 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 10/9/2015 6:51:07 PM, FourTrouble wrote:
The problem isn't just inactivity. It's sh!tty play that makes scumhunting impossible, which in turn perpetuates inactivity.

There's always been terrible play. You somehow always managed to get a town read on me when I was town, but I'm one of the worst players on the site when it comes to read accuracy. My last three town games have me at 0% accuracy, I believe. If you're referring to the sort of dismissive "eh, this guy's scum VTL guy", then I consider that inactivity as well, and probably even more egregious than just not posting (as that's grounds for replacement).
Addressing inactivity won't solve the problem, but I think it will help in the long run.
SO to Bailey, the love of my life <3
FourTrouble
Posts: 12,757
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10/9/2015 6:56:15 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
In terms of this game, I think who wins is completely random. I even told F-16 that it'd be impossible to figure sh!t out. Even Hoppi's reason for suspecting me was bullsh!t (the fact that I'm left alive at LYLO isn't a scum-tell, no matter what anyone says; it's pure WIFOM).

I thought the players in this game were so bad that I even told Solon that we'd get whatever lynch we wanted if we just voted together. This actually worked when we got Skep lynched over Lucky.

The irony of that approach is that it gives town a goldmine of information, especially after Lucky flipped. I've said this in other games, but when there's two options for lynching, one is scum and the other is town, you can bet that at least some of the scum are pushing the town lynch. Solon's vote was a turning point in the lynch on Skep, so that was probably the biggest scum-tell in the game. The defense I made of Lucky was also quite scummy, since it literally rested on nothing, and it came out of nowhere the moment Lucky started getting pressure. The fact that Skep flipped town and Lucky scum should have been a huge clue that both me and Solon were scum, since our actions had clear scum motives and clearly came from an informed perspective.

Against better players, I wouldn't have defended Lucky. And I probably would have bussed Solon too, based on how the game was going. This game felt decided by random chance, because this town literally had no clue what it was doing.
FourTrouble
Posts: 12,757
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10/9/2015 7:13:14 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
I'd recommend completely revamping the Beginner Series. These noobs are taught to focus exclusively on roles and theme, so they're clueless about how to read or produce telling behavior. This promotes inactivity because once all the roles are out, there's nothing left to discuss.

Illusionists is the best example. I thought town was on track to win that game. Even my lynch should have made the mafia obvious. Ford was the lynch for D4. Solon was the next obvious lynch on D5. That would have left Tejretics/Wylted as the final lynch that determined the game. That would have been a difficult decision, but seeing Wylted's play in this game would have given a baseline on his town game (which for the record, is completely different from his scum game).

This game was better because there were no complicated roles or theme, so the town had to be more active. Even so, the town had no clue what to do. There wasn't any discussion about behaviors. There wasn't any analysis. Valkrin tried after replacing TUF, and I thought he was so obviously town that I couldn't even bring myself to vote him. The stuff people called him scummy for was actually town-tells. Of course, the town had no idea how to read behaviors or produce telling behaviors (and both are important). And they never questioned or analyzed their gut feelings (which are useful but also unreliable).

The towns that win are towns where players discuss behaviors. In my nightless game, F-16 and BlackVoid spent pages and pages discussing their reads. In doing so, they refined their reads, caught things that others missed, pointed out problems with each other's reads, until they eventually found the scum (or the players most likely to be scum). Even in most recent games I've lost as town, we've lynched correctly on D1 or D2 while there were still good townies alive. I remember discussing the game with Xlav in a recent game, figuring out that Tejretics was town, catching a scum-tell on Trekie, and then pushing the Trekie lynch through, even though half the town was opposed to that lynch. The discussion is what helped us get off Tejretcis and onto Trekie. There's none of that discussion in this game or any recent games.
XLAV
Posts: 13,710
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10/9/2015 8:01:39 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 10/9/2015 6:24:33 PM, FourTrouble wrote:
At 10/9/2015 4:36:41 PM, XLAV wrote:
Watching FT play scum was interesting.

Honestly, he's not that hard to catch, lol.

I'm obvious once you know I'm scum, because my motives are very obvious. But I do that cause I know clueless townies won't catch it. Only good players will see the pattern of pro-scum play as scummy.

lol, watching you defend Lucky was scummy. I don't know why they didn't at least suspect you on that.
F-16_Fighting_Falcon
Posts: 18,324
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10/9/2015 8:04:27 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
I agree with pretty much everything FT said. The best way to refine your reads in to post them in thread along with your explanations. Wylted said he re-read all the DPs. Compose your thoughts in a wall and list them out. If everyone went and re-read all the DPs on DP4 and shared their conclusions and debated them, it would have been a great way to improve accuracy.

I remembered in FT's Nightless game, Drafterman was complaining about how I was making every DP a rehash of everything that happened up until that point but doing that was what ultimately helped develop reads more. His complaint was actually a pretty good description of what happened: http://www.debate.org...

At 5/18/2015 9:26:20 PM, TheGreatAndPowerful wrote:
Jesus.

Not every lynch has to be this artisinally paint-stakingly crafted masterpiece that incorporates every pierce of information from every angle from every POV rulling out any and all possibility of error, right?

You pick someone, you lynch them. Easy. If you're wrong: THATS PART OF THE GAME. You use that information to guide the next lynch. Not every DP needs to be a complete and utter rehash of the entire game up until that point, starting from a blank slate each time.

F16, you're coming across too much like a tryhard, as if you are going over the top to make yourself *look* townie with this overwrought analysis and hokey hand wringing over lynching someone.
Skepsikyma
Posts: 8,280
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10/9/2015 10:13:28 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 10/9/2015 7:13:14 PM, FourTrouble wrote:
I'd recommend completely revamping the Beginner Series. These noobs are taught to focus exclusively on roles and theme, so they're clueless about how to read or produce telling behavior. This promotes inactivity because once all the roles are out, there's nothing left to discuss.

Yeah. I didn't defend myself very vociferously because I assumed that the masons had successfully recruited someone and that my mislynch would out at least one scum by back analysis (Solon being the one). I was mislynch bait anyway at that point. We would end up with three confirmed townies and a scum kill. The fact that they KNEW who was scum but allowed me to be mislynched, to be honest, utterly pissed me off. I think that they made this decision because of the mentality that you pointed out: they were valuing their 'role status' above anything else, and so refused to out even when it meant 100% lynching scum and avoiding a mislynch.

My mistake in this game was being legitimately fooled by you and Lucky while I was alive. I was talking to Solon, and picked him out as scum after I was already dead, and was iffy on you. Truth be told, I probably wouldn't have been able to catch you even if I had been left alive, because there were such ripe targets for mislynches lying about.

And Valk... I can't believe that you thought that scum would fake claim a mason in this game xD
"The Collectivist experiment is thoroughly suited (in appearance at least) to the Capitalist society which it proposes to replace. It works with the existing machinery of Capitalism, talks and thinks in the existing terms of Capitalism, appeals to just those appetites which Capitalism has aroused, and ridicules as fantastic and unheard-of just those things in society the memory of which Capitalism has killed among men wherever the blight of it has spread."
- Hilaire Belloc -
Wylted
Posts: 21,167
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10/9/2015 11:27:39 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
I don't understand Midnight's rationale at all. Reading through the DPs it just made no sense to me.

I also don't understand why FT just didn't refrain from voting the DP before the last. There was like ( hours left when he voted and with midnight being completely inactive, he wouldn't have voted and the game could've ended a DP earlier.
Hoppi
Posts: 1,655
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10/10/2015 12:31:12 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
That was really interesting to play without roles. It was really difficult, but more about skill.

But yeah, there's no way town can ever win if there's townies who don't bother to read the game. That was really annoying.
Hoppi
Posts: 1,655
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10/10/2015 12:35:40 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 10/9/2015 11:27:39 PM, Wylted wrote:
I don't understand Midnight's rationale at all. Reading through the DPs it just made no sense to me.

I also don't understand why FT just didn't refrain from voting the DP before the last. There was like ( hours left when he voted and with midnight being completely inactive, he wouldn't have voted and the game could've ended a DP earlier.

He couldn't be sure that midnight wouldn't vote. But there was a massive clue that midnight was town - the mod mixed him and me up in the vote count. It's much more unlikely he would do that if midnight was scum.

It made no difference though. Even if you'd picked ft, it's unlikely we would have won.
Wylted
Posts: 21,167
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10/10/2015 1:26:50 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 10/10/2015 12:35:40 AM, Hoppi wrote:
At 10/9/2015 11:27:39 PM, Wylted wrote:
I don't understand Midnight's rationale at all. Reading through the DPs it just made no sense to me.

I also don't understand why FT just didn't refrain from voting the DP before the last. There was like ( hours left when he voted and with midnight being completely inactive, he wouldn't have voted and the game could've ended a DP earlier.

He couldn't be sure that midnight wouldn't vote. But there was a massive clue that midnight was town - the mod mixed him and me up in the vote count. It's much more unlikely he would do that if midnight was scum.

It made no difference though. Even if you'd picked ft, it's unlikely we would have won.

I considered both things. I was sure midnight would vote for me, as well