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Themeless Mafia - End Game

TheGreatAndPowerful
Posts: 3,012
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1/29/2016 9:40:50 PM
Posted: 10 months ago
Town wins!

Dramatis Personae:
1. XLAV - Bulletproof* - Town
2. F16 - Roleblocker - Mafia
3. FT - Vanilla - Town
4. Bullish - Back-up - Town
5. Budda - Vanilla - Town
6. Zaradi - Cop - Town
7. Cobalt - Secret Miller - Town

Yes. I did make a mod error in giving XLAV bulletproof. I had to swap HGP out with Bullish and wasn't expecting such a quick response. I didn't have my role list with me when he respond, and forgot what one of the roles was supposed to be.

Mechanically, it did result in something of an OP town, which I tried to remedy by reverting XLAV back to a Vanilla, but that wasn't going so well. I ended up giving F16 a one-shot strong kill, not that it mattered.

The game, as played, was essentially a 6v1 vanilla/goon game. So the question remains should it have been 5v2 as everyone assumed? I ran the numbers and 5v2 gave Town but a single mislynch. I felt that was too narrow a margin, though perhaps that would be fine in a game this size.

In any event I apologize to F16 and XLAV for that mix-up.

Please let me know if you guys are still interested in the follow-up game.
F-16_Fighting_Falcon
Posts: 18,324
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1/29/2016 9:48:04 PM
Posted: 10 months ago
It's hard to balance a 7P game. 5v2 is definitely scumsided and I agree that it's not much of a margin for error. A 9P game with 2 scum would I think be perfectly balanced. I don't know what I would have done if I wanted to run specifically a 7 player game. I was thinking there was a traitor and took a gamble with Budda.
TheGreatAndPowerful
Posts: 3,012
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1/29/2016 9:53:38 PM
Posted: 10 months ago
At 1/29/2016 9:48:04 PM, F-16_Fighting_Falcon wrote:
It's hard to balance a 7P game. 5v2 is definitely scumsided and I agree that it's not much of a margin for error. A 9P game with 2 scum would I think be perfectly balanced. I don't know what I would have done if I wanted to run specifically a 7 player game. I was thinking there was a traitor and took a gamble with Budda.

I actually thought of that after the fact. Maybe not a traitor, but just two non-meeting maf who don't know each other? It's definitely a challenge and I'll have to factor that into designing the next round if people are still interested.
FourTrouble
Posts: 12,757
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1/29/2016 9:56:47 PM
Posted: 10 months ago
It's definitely a huge challenge to balance a 7 player game. I'm impressed by drafter's decision to make it a single mafioso, in the sense that I think that's much more balanced than having two mafia. But at the same time, I never considered the possibility, because it's just so rare you have games with only one player. I also think it might be somewhat unfun (or lonely) for the mafia, who doesn't have a partner to scheme with.
FourTrouble
Posts: 12,757
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1/29/2016 10:03:23 PM
Posted: 10 months ago
It's interesting that everyone noticed negative associations between F-16 and the other potential lynches. For instance, I was confident that Bullish couldn't be F-16's partner, while Bullish pointed to evidence that Budda couldn't be F-16's partner. Yet nobody ever suggested the possibility of a single mafioso in F-16.
Bullish
Posts: 3,527
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1/29/2016 10:10:18 PM
Posted: 10 months ago
At 1/29/2016 9:53:50 PM, FourTrouble wrote:
Oh wow, poor F-16 working alone. I feel bad for you, man.

Definitely my thought too.

I just feel that having solo or even disjoint solo mafia takes a part of the game away. I never considered the possibility. With 7 players I probably would have balanced with either hard-denying the mafia with an NP1 kill or adde a ton of protective roles.
0x5f3759df
Buddamoose
Posts: 19,448
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1/29/2016 10:24:04 PM
Posted: 10 months ago
At 1/29/2016 10:03:23 PM, FourTrouble wrote:
Yet nobody ever suggested the possibility of a single mafioso in F-16.

To be perfectly honest, that's cause one scum v 6 townies is crazily townsided
"Reality is an illusion created due to a lack of alcohol"
-Airmax1227

"You were the moon all this time, and he was always there to make you shine."

"Was he the sun?"

"No honey, he was the darkness"

-Kazekirion
Buddamoose
Posts: 19,448
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1/29/2016 10:26:17 PM
Posted: 10 months ago
and now I can see why F-16 didn't put much effort into this game. Feels bro, you have them from me
"Reality is an illusion created due to a lack of alcohol"
-Airmax1227

"You were the moon all this time, and he was always there to make you shine."

"Was he the sun?"

"No honey, he was the darkness"

-Kazekirion
Buddamoose
Posts: 19,448
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1/29/2016 10:27:58 PM
Posted: 10 months ago
I'm still interested in the next game.

I'll be honest though, I totally thought once Zaradi flipped, this was a variation on classic set-up. 2 goons, cop/doc, 3 vanilla one being miller
"Reality is an illusion created due to a lack of alcohol"
-Airmax1227

"You were the moon all this time, and he was always there to make you shine."

"Was he the sun?"

"No honey, he was the darkness"

-Kazekirion
Buddamoose
Posts: 19,448
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1/29/2016 10:32:18 PM
Posted: 10 months ago
At 1/29/2016 9:40:50 PM, TheGreatAndPowerful wrote:

The game, as played, was essentially a 6v1 vanilla/goon game. So the question remains should it have been 5v2 as everyone assumed?

Imho, no, it really isn't all that imbalanced to have a 5v2. Classic set-up which is a 5v2 set-up is one of the, if not the most balanced set-up there is. Despite lacking power roles, mafia do have an advantage of having more information in that set-up. So they are able to use that to manipulate town. Classic set-up, even godfather/goon variation, maintains a fairly consistent right around 50/50 win rate on Epicmafia.
"Reality is an illusion created due to a lack of alcohol"
-Airmax1227

"You were the moon all this time, and he was always there to make you shine."

"Was he the sun?"

"No honey, he was the darkness"

-Kazekirion
Buddamoose
Posts: 19,448
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1/29/2016 10:35:12 PM
Posted: 10 months ago
lol my bad btw Bullish. For the life of me I'm still sitting here like, "but drafter, are you sure he wasn't scum? Like, is this endgame mistaken? Cause that man was scummy" xD

Oh wells, overall we all got a fast one pulled on us lmao. Looking back I'm like, oh wow, just wow, weren't we some geniuses? xD
"Reality is an illusion created due to a lack of alcohol"
-Airmax1227

"You were the moon all this time, and he was always there to make you shine."

"Was he the sun?"

"No honey, he was the darkness"

-Kazekirion
F-16_Fighting_Falcon
Posts: 18,324
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1/30/2016 1:05:03 AM
Posted: 10 months ago
At 1/29/2016 10:04:18 PM, FourTrouble wrote:
F-16, why'd you kill Zaradi? That didn't make much sense to me. He was one of the potential mislynches.

Just felt like the best option at the time.
F-16_Fighting_Falcon
Posts: 18,324
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1/30/2016 1:09:13 AM
Posted: 10 months ago
At 1/29/2016 10:32:18 PM, Buddamoose wrote:
At 1/29/2016 9:40:50 PM, TheGreatAndPowerful wrote:

The game, as played, was essentially a 6v1 vanilla/goon game. So the question remains should it have been 5v2 as everyone assumed?

Imho, no, it really isn't all that imbalanced to have a 5v2. Classic set-up which is a 5v2 set-up is one of the, if not the most balanced set-up there is. Despite lacking power roles, mafia do have an advantage of having more information in that set-up. So they are able to use that to manipulate town. Classic set-up, even godfather/goon variation, maintains a fairly consistent right around 50/50 win rate on Epicmafia.

I have never heard of this "classic" setup. And no, it's not balanced at all. Based on info from thousands of setups on mafiascum, a setup really isn't balanced if it doesn't allow town as many mistakes as there are scum in the game before losing. So, with two scum, I'd expect at least two mislynches without town having to lose with the third one being the losing mislynch. Same if there are 13 players with 3 scum, or 17 players with 4.

Also, having both cop and doc overpowers the setup quite a bit. Epicmafia is different because they are instantaneous games where you don't really have time to scumhunt.