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Revamping the beginner series

FourTrouble
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2/5/2016 10:37:25 PM
Posted: 10 months ago
The beginner series is not working. It isn't teaching noobs how to become competent players. It isn't providing a realistic experience. And it isn't providing noobs a consistent experience. The result has been a regression: the mafia community is nearly dead.

When I first started playing mafia, the standard for playing in a regular game was having completed the beginner series. These days, even that isn't enough, because everyone knows that completing the series is completely meaningless. Unless you have proven yourself in a regular game, most players won't think of you as a competent player. And even completing a number of regular games isn't enough to make you competent, because the regular games are filled with noobs who learned how to play in today's beginner series. The beginner series shapes how players play. When they're taught to hunt for roles instead of the scum, and when they're taught to play pro-scum instead of pro-town, it creates a pro-scum environment in every game. It also leads to widespread apathy. So signups take forever, and DPs end in no-lynches.

The current series consists of three games. Neither game is balanced. So strategies that work in these series would never work in a balanced game. From the town's perspective, the emphasis is placed on role hunting. From the mafia's perspective, the emphasis is placed on effective fake-claiming and counter-claiming. When players finish the series, they somehow develop an irrational skepticism towards behavioral analysis. Meanwhile, they become obsessed with roles and mod psychology (i.e. thematic analysis). Since these players develop a skewed notion of what a balanced mafia game looks like, players lose their competitive drive to win games. This applies as either alignment. There is simply no incentive to put effort into a game where you never had much chance of winning, or where you were virtually guaranteed a win from the beginning. The games are neither competitive, fun, or fair.

So, the beginner games need to be revamped. The first thing that needs to change is that every game in the series needs to be balanced. There is no reason to have noobs play imbalanced games. When games aren't balanced, the result is an inconsistent experience. And an inconsistent experience is not acceptable in the beginner series. Every beginner series should be a good and educational experience, not just some of them. To make the games balanced, use setups like mafiascum's matrix 6 setup. Follow the general principle that town should be guaranteed at least as many lynches (i.e. room for error) as there are number of mafia. The games also need to actively avoid the potential for broken role combinations. This only leads to further emphasis on roles. In games where there is a theme, mafia should be given fake-claims, and the emphasis needs to be on deceptive behaviors, not effective fake-claims.

The only objection I have seen to balancing the beginner games is that they are not about balance, they are about exposure. This is a stupid argument, because it begs the question, exposure to what. The correct answer to that question is exposure to a consistently fun, balanced, realistic, educational game of mafia. The answer is not exposure to roles for two reasons: (1) you don't need to know every role to become a competent mafia player (e.g. in the most recent beginner series, mafia claimed a role that I never heard of, and it had no impact on my ability to catch him); and (2) using roles in an imbalanced game, where there are potentially broken role combinations, doesn't teach you anything about when to claim (since the right strategy in these games is a mass claim) or how to use your role in a balanced game (since the way you use your role will turn on discovering a broken combination, not on reasoning through things like the likely nightkill).

The beginner games also need to focus on providing an environment for experienced players to be able to teach and show newer players how to become competent players. And when I say "experienced," I also mean "good." I don't think players like Lannan should be given the status of "ringer." This is a large part of why beginners come away wtih the notion that roles are all that matter. In every beginner series, there needs to be at least one experienced player in the series who is actually a competent player, isn't going to flake, isn't going to lurk, isn't going to teach pro-scum tendencies to the town, and so on. That doesn't mean they won't play to win, or play as they usually play. The best way to learn how to play mafia is to play with competent players who show you how it's done. There aren't a lot of players on DDO who meet this qualification, in large part because none of the newer players are competent enough to take their place (again, a failing of the beginner series). In theory, someone should be able to meet this qualification after playing through the beginner series a single time. Currently, that is not the case. Until it becomes the case, we need to place more emphasis on exposing newer players to competent players, not to players like Lannan.

Finally, the beginner series needs to make a few things clear from the start. The roles and alignments need to be randomized. And that should be made clear from the start. The rules about needing to include an "unvote" before every vote should be abolished. We don't need noobs focusing on following pointless rules; their focus needs to be on playing the game, and on absorbing the way competent players play. In general, all the pointless rules need to be removed from the beginner games (and from regular games, but that's another topic).

Now, since bsh1 runs the beginner games, and since I know he's a sensitive dude, I want to make clear that this isn't personal. I have no problems with bsh1 as a person. The problem is with the way the beginner series is currently being run. It needs to change. If bsh1 refuses to change it, someone else will need to take his place modding the games. This is a necessary change to improve DDO's mafia community.
F-16_Fighting_Falcon
Posts: 18,324
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2/5/2016 11:10:24 PM
Posted: 10 months ago
Agree with pretty much everything said here, especially using the Matrix 6 setup.

Also, I think the signup for three consecutive games method has outlived its usefulness. Drafter was the one who started it ages ago and mafia mindsets were different then. We don't need to introduce people to "role madness," "third parties," and "false roles like framers" are such. Those are all things people can research online if they are truly passionate about the game.

Beginner's series ought to provide aspects of the game that can't be researched and learned through reading online articles: a training ground to practice scumhunting by using it on real, live players. We only need one game per signup. Like we could have Beginner's 44. Then 45.

As for the ringers, not allowing headphonegut (http://www.debate.org...) to do it is weird. I found him fairly clear and obvtown whenever he was town. Agree on the unvote rule. It's stupid.

One problem that is limiting us as a site that mafiascum doesn't have is a steady stream of new, interested players. The signups are slow and no new members really show up to play. That, we can't fix even we update the beginner's games.
FourTrouble
Posts: 12,777
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2/5/2016 11:15:30 PM
Posted: 10 months ago
At 2/5/2016 11:10:24 PM, F-16_Fighting_Falcon wrote:
As for the ringers, not allowing headphonegut (http://www.debate.org...) to do it is weird. I found him fairly clear and obvtown whenever he was town. Agree on the unvote rule. It's stupid.

Agreed. I found the inclusion of Lannan and exclusion of HPG extremely bizarre.

One problem that is limiting us as a site that mafiascum doesn't have is a steady stream of new, interested players. The signups are slow and no new members really show up to play. That, we can't fix even we update the beginner's games.

There's actually a lot of new players. The problem is that these players never become competent enough to make the jump from the beginner series to regular games. They also have very inconsistent experiences. The game quickly loses its allure when it's nothing but role hunting. So they never stick around.
The-Voice-of-Truth
Posts: 6,580
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2/6/2016 1:22:19 AM
Posted: 10 months ago
At 2/5/2016 10:37:25 PM, FourTrouble wrote:

I know I'm still a noob and fall under the "lannan" category, but I agree with what you have said, and I would like to add another tidbit:

Maybe, instead of ringers in the Beginner's games, they volunteer as mentors, and are included in the PMs of the players under their jurisdiction. Each mentor would have 2-3 people under their wing that they can give advice to. One ringer would have the scum PM.
"You're more of a fluentic fail doer who sometimes does a doo dah with a diggity ding, managing to push open doors that weren't meant to be opened, only to find that there's no floor, so you instead become spiderman and crawl on the walls." -Vaarka

I'm Rick Harrison and this is my pawn shop. I work here with my old man and my son, Big Hoss, and in 23 years I've learned one thing. You never know what is gonna come through that door
FourTrouble
Posts: 12,777
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2/6/2016 1:28:12 AM
Posted: 10 months ago
At 2/6/2016 1:22:19 AM, The-Voice-of-Truth wrote:
Maybe, instead of ringers in the Beginner's games, they volunteer as mentors, and are included in the PMs of the players under their jurisdiction. Each mentor would have 2-3 people under their wing that they can give advice to. One ringer would have the scum PM.

I don't think this works. The way you learn is by playing with good players who bring you up to their level.
F-16_Fighting_Falcon
Posts: 18,324
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2/6/2016 1:28:24 AM
Posted: 10 months ago
At 2/6/2016 1:22:19 AM, The-Voice-of-Truth wrote:
At 2/5/2016 10:37:25 PM, FourTrouble wrote:

I know I'm still a noob and fall under the "lannan" category, but I agree with what you have said, and I would like to add another tidbit:

Maybe, instead of ringers in the Beginner's games, they volunteer as mentors, and are included in the PMs of the players under their jurisdiction. Each mentor would have 2-3 people under their wing that they can give advice to. One ringer would have the scum PM.

I find outside influences like mentors just bad in general because that's not how real games are played. Besides, the best way to learn is to see how skilled players present their arguments, how they argue and talk themselves out of suspicion, how they work on convincing people. All those things can't be learned if someone is just behind the scenes offering advice.
The-Voice-of-Truth
Posts: 6,580
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2/6/2016 1:30:14 AM
Posted: 10 months ago
At 2/6/2016 1:28:12 AM, FourTrouble wrote:
At 2/6/2016 1:22:19 AM, The-Voice-of-Truth wrote:
Maybe, instead of ringers in the Beginner's games, they volunteer as mentors, and are included in the PMs of the players under their jurisdiction. Each mentor would have 2-3 people under their wing that they can give advice to. One ringer would have the scum PM.

I don't think this works. The way you learn is by playing with good players who bring you up to their level.

I see your point: experience is what influences ability.
"You're more of a fluentic fail doer who sometimes does a doo dah with a diggity ding, managing to push open doors that weren't meant to be opened, only to find that there's no floor, so you instead become spiderman and crawl on the walls." -Vaarka

I'm Rick Harrison and this is my pawn shop. I work here with my old man and my son, Big Hoss, and in 23 years I've learned one thing. You never know what is gonna come through that door
The-Voice-of-Truth
Posts: 6,580
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2/6/2016 1:30:53 AM
Posted: 10 months ago
At 2/6/2016 1:29:23 AM, F-16_Fighting_Falcon wrote:
FT beat me by 12 seconds but basically that.

Yeah, lol, read both posts anyway, :P
"You're more of a fluentic fail doer who sometimes does a doo dah with a diggity ding, managing to push open doors that weren't meant to be opened, only to find that there's no floor, so you instead become spiderman and crawl on the walls." -Vaarka

I'm Rick Harrison and this is my pawn shop. I work here with my old man and my son, Big Hoss, and in 23 years I've learned one thing. You never know what is gonna come through that door
The-Voice-of-Truth
Posts: 6,580
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2/6/2016 1:31:16 AM
Posted: 10 months ago
At 2/6/2016 1:30:40 AM, EndarkenedRationalist wrote:
I think you've somehow missed the changes that have just been implemented into the beginner's series.

wat changes
"You're more of a fluentic fail doer who sometimes does a doo dah with a diggity ding, managing to push open doors that weren't meant to be opened, only to find that there's no floor, so you instead become spiderman and crawl on the walls." -Vaarka

I'm Rick Harrison and this is my pawn shop. I work here with my old man and my son, Big Hoss, and in 23 years I've learned one thing. You never know what is gonna come through that door
EndarkenedRationalist
Posts: 14,201
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2/6/2016 1:37:25 AM
Posted: 10 months ago
At 2/6/2016 1:31:16 AM, The-Voice-of-Truth wrote:
At 2/6/2016 1:30:40 AM, EndarkenedRationalist wrote:
I think you've somehow missed the changes that have just been implemented into the beginner's series.

wat changes

http://www.debate.org...
FourTrouble
Posts: 12,777
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2/6/2016 1:38:58 AM
Posted: 10 months ago
At 2/6/2016 1:30:40 AM, EndarkenedRationalist wrote:
I think you've somehow missed the changes that have just been implemented into the beginner's series.

No, I did not miss those changes. I am part of these games. The changes have not changed anything. The games remain imbalanced. The focus remains on exposure to roles.
EndarkenedRationalist
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2/6/2016 1:40:24 AM
Posted: 10 months ago
At 2/6/2016 1:38:58 AM, FourTrouble wrote:
At 2/6/2016 1:30:40 AM, EndarkenedRationalist wrote:
I think you've somehow missed the changes that have just been implemented into the beginner's series.

No, I did not miss those changes. I am part of these games. The changes have not changed anything. The games remain imbalanced. The focus remains on exposure to roles.

That's one problem, and certainly doesn't constitute the entire issue.
The-Voice-of-Truth
Posts: 6,580
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2/6/2016 1:41:37 AM
Posted: 10 months ago
At 2/6/2016 1:37:25 AM, EndarkenedRationalist wrote:
At 2/6/2016 1:31:16 AM, The-Voice-of-Truth wrote:
At 2/6/2016 1:30:40 AM, EndarkenedRationalist wrote:
I think you've somehow missed the changes that have just been implemented into the beginner's series.

wat changes

http://www.debate.org...

It seems to me they didn't do much of anything.
"You're more of a fluentic fail doer who sometimes does a doo dah with a diggity ding, managing to push open doors that weren't meant to be opened, only to find that there's no floor, so you instead become spiderman and crawl on the walls." -Vaarka

I'm Rick Harrison and this is my pawn shop. I work here with my old man and my son, Big Hoss, and in 23 years I've learned one thing. You never know what is gonna come through that door
EndarkenedRationalist
Posts: 14,201
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2/6/2016 1:42:52 AM
Posted: 10 months ago
At 2/6/2016 1:41:37 AM, The-Voice-of-Truth wrote:
At 2/6/2016 1:37:25 AM, EndarkenedRationalist wrote:
At 2/6/2016 1:31:16 AM, The-Voice-of-Truth wrote:
At 2/6/2016 1:30:40 AM, EndarkenedRationalist wrote:
I think you've somehow missed the changes that have just been implemented into the beginner's series.

wat changes

http://www.debate.org...

It seems to me they didn't do much of anything.

They've implemented several changes. I don't know if I'm at liberty to discuss them, but I was part of that conversation. Feel free to reach out to bsh1 and ask for a clearer picture.
The-Voice-of-Truth
Posts: 6,580
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2/6/2016 1:44:33 AM
Posted: 10 months ago
At 2/6/2016 1:42:52 AM, EndarkenedRationalist wrote:
At 2/6/2016 1:41:37 AM, The-Voice-of-Truth wrote:
At 2/6/2016 1:37:25 AM, EndarkenedRationalist wrote:
At 2/6/2016 1:31:16 AM, The-Voice-of-Truth wrote:
At 2/6/2016 1:30:40 AM, EndarkenedRationalist wrote:
I think you've somehow missed the changes that have just been implemented into the beginner's series.

wat changes

http://www.debate.org...

It seems to me they didn't do much of anything.

They've implemented several changes. I don't know if I'm at liberty to discuss them, but I was part of that conversation. Feel free to reach out to bsh1 and ask for a clearer picture.

K. Thanks.
"You're more of a fluentic fail doer who sometimes does a doo dah with a diggity ding, managing to push open doors that weren't meant to be opened, only to find that there's no floor, so you instead become spiderman and crawl on the walls." -Vaarka

I'm Rick Harrison and this is my pawn shop. I work here with my old man and my son, Big Hoss, and in 23 years I've learned one thing. You never know what is gonna come through that door
Wylted
Posts: 21,167
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2/6/2016 1:46:20 AM
Posted: 10 months ago
These threads keep appearing and I thinkbit's extremely disrespectful to BSH1. He does a lot of work on the beginner's series and any talks of revamping it should go through him personally in a PM.
FourTrouble
Posts: 12,777
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2/6/2016 1:59:31 AM
Posted: 10 months ago
At 2/6/2016 1:46:20 AM, Wylted wrote:
These threads keep appearing and I thinkbit's extremely disrespectful to BSH1. He does a lot of work on the beginner's series and any talks of revamping it should go through him personally in a PM.

I haven't seen any threads discussing the beginner series. So I'm not sure what you're talking about.

As for discussing it privately, no. This is an issue that affects the whole mafia community. It is not a personal issue between myself and bsh1. Talks of revamping the beginner series is need to be discussed openly, not in private by a few select individuals.
FourTrouble
Posts: 12,777
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2/6/2016 2:02:47 AM
Posted: 10 months ago
I've never had a professor mark off my writing. I probably write half my sentences in passive. I relentlessly use the same sentence structures. I don't always use topic sentences. Never been marked off.
Wylted
Posts: 21,167
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2/6/2016 2:04:50 AM
Posted: 10 months ago
At 2/6/2016 1:59:31 AM, FourTrouble wrote:
At 2/6/2016 1:46:20 AM, Wylted wrote:
These threads keep appearing and I thinkbit's extremely disrespectful to BSH1. He does a lot of work on the beginner's series and any talks of revamping it should go through him personally in a PM.

I haven't seen any threads discussing the beginner series. So I'm not sure what you're talking about.

As for discussing it privately, no. This is an issue that affects the whole mafia community. It is not a personal issue between myself and bsh1. Talks of revamping the beginner series is need to be discussed openly, not in private by a few select individuals.

It has probably been about 18 months, but I saw another thread. I know it's not personal, but honestly he is the obly person willing to run it. It's a burden and no fun to run that thing, yet he continually does it. I figure if he is the only one that feels like modding non<x>stop mafia games, let him do whatever he feels like.

I see several improvements as well, but I'm sure as hell not willing to put the work into not only running them, but recruiting noobs into joining, so I don't want to armchair quarterback.
FourTrouble
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2/6/2016 2:13:20 AM
Posted: 10 months ago
At 2/6/2016 2:04:50 AM, Wylted wrote:
It has probably been about 18 months, but I saw another thread. I know it's not personal, but honestly he is the obly person willing to run it. It's a burden and no fun to run that thing, yet he continually does it. I figure if he is the only one that feels like modding non<x>stop mafia games, let him do whatever he feels like.

I doubt nobody else wants to mod them. But if that's the case, easy solution:

Force noobs who wants to mod a regular game to mod a beginner game first. This way, they learn how to mod a simple setup before modding their own. Congrats. We now have a bunch of players ready to mod a beginner game. Or at least we will in the near future.
FourTrouble
Posts: 12,777
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2/6/2016 2:14:15 AM
Posted: 10 months ago
Besides, I'm not even talking about having someone else mod them. I'm talking about improving the series, regardless of who mods them. The series should provide a consistent environment for noobs to learn how to play.
Wylted
Posts: 21,167
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2/6/2016 2:21:26 AM
Posted: 10 months ago
At 2/6/2016 2:13:20 AM, FourTrouble wrote:
At 2/6/2016 2:04:50 AM, Wylted wrote:
It has probably been about 18 months, but I saw another thread. I know it's not personal, but honestly he is the obly person willing to run it. It's a burden and no fun to run that thing, yet he continually does it. I figure if he is the only one that feels like modding non<x>stop mafia games, let him do whatever he feels like.

I doubt nobody else wants to mod them. But if that's the case, easy solution:

Force noobs who wants to mod a regular game to mod a beginner game first. This way, they learn how to mod a simple setup before modding their own. Congrats. We now have a bunch of players ready to mod a beginner game. Or at least we will in the near future.

Yeah, that is a good suggestion
bsh1
Posts: 27,504
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2/6/2016 2:45:03 AM
Posted: 10 months ago
At 2/5/2016 10:37:25 PM, FourTrouble wrote:
The beginner series is not working. It isn't teaching noobs how to become competent players. It isn't providing a realistic experience. And it isn't providing noobs a consistent experience. The result has been a regression: the mafia community is nearly dead.

So, I am going to go through and address these issues to hopefully dispel some of the issues.I am disappointed you posted this now, before I had a chance to do a postmortem on the pilot program, esp. as you said you'd wait for the series to end, but I'll address this now anyway.

It also leads to widespread apathy. So signups take forever, and DPs end in no-lynches.

I don't think that's a fair assumption for a variety of reasons. The decline in interest in mafia came well after the use of this series.

The current series consists of three games. Neither game is balanced.

This is not correct. The goal of the revamped series is to provide 2 balanced games out of 3 games total. Unfortunately, the game in the current series was unbalanced--though I had tried to take the matrix set-up and to scale it up. That didn't work, and that is my fault, but it was my intention that it be balanced, and I am willing to work with people to balance it. But, let me outline the idea of the series as the pilot program (which is 43.x) is working:

Game One: Balanced, mostly vanillas, focus on behavioral analysis and basic mechanics
Game Two: Unbalanced, mostly non-vanillas, focus on exposure to, and understanding of, roles and flavors
Game Three: Balanced, simulating a real game, synthesizing knowledge of roles with behavioral analysis knowledge and adding theme analysis

So strategies that work in these series would never work in a balanced game.

False, because, as I said, the vision going forward is that 2/3rds of the beginners' series games be balanced.

From the mafia's perspective, the emphasis is placed on effective fake-claiming and counter-claiming. When players finish the series, they somehow develop an irrational skepticism towards behavioral analysis. Meanwhile, they become obsessed with roles and mod psychology (i.e. thematic analysis).

I don't think this will be the case anymore given the new format, which makes the first, most formative game primarily about behavioral analysis.

There is simply no incentive to put effort into a game where you never had much chance of winning, or where you were virtually guaranteed a win from the beginning. The games are neither competitive, fun, or fair.

Again, now that 2 of 3 games will be balanced, they will be competitive, fun, and fair.

So, the beginner games need to be revamped.

FT, it seems like all of your complaints are about the old way I ran the series. Your complaints do not address the here-and-now of how I am running the series.

I concede the the first game needs work to get to a balanced point, but since this was a test-run of this new format, I expected that work would need to be done at the end to improve it. But, I will certainly work on balancing better the first game. This does not change, however, that your comments seems to be addressing the strawman of what the series was, not what the series is.

The first thing that needs to change is that every game in the series needs to be balanced...Every beginner series should be a good and educational experience, not just some of them.

The goal of the one imbalanced game is to maximize exposure to roles so that players can understand how the roles work, and how they interact. The number one questions I've gotten over my time running the series are about how roles work. I think it is absolutely vital that players get acquainted with a wide array of roles through seeing them at work in the game.

To make the games balanced, use setups like mafiascum's matrix 6 setup.

My goal was to follow a matrix set-up, but just to scale it up to the size of this game. I am perfectly willing to discuss balancing the first game better though. But, I do think that I can balance the final game on my own--I am not that bad at balancing games, lol. Usually, the last game doesn't get many complaints or have many issues re: balance.

In games where there is a theme, mafia should be given fake-claims, and the emphasis needs to be on deceptive behaviors, not effective fake-claims.

I think theme analysis is a really important part of how mafia works. In every game, you will encounter theme analysis. Players must be introduced to this and must know how it works before they do regular games.

The answer is not exposure to roles for two reasons: (1) you don't need to know every role to become a competent mafia player (e.g. in the most recent beginner series, mafia claimed a role that I never heard of, and it had no impact on my ability to catch him)

Sure, you don't need to know every role, but having experience with more than just a few roles gives players a better understanding of how roles work in general. If you never have encountered a role like commuter before, a player might think that it doesn't stop an NK. The more role dynamics you're exposed to, the better able you are to understand how all roles interplay and work.

and (2) using roles in an imbalanced game, where there are potentially broken role combinations, doesn't teach you anything about when to claim (since the right strategy in these games is a mass claim) or how to use your role in a balanced game (since the way you use your role will turn on discovering a broken combination, not on reasoning through things like the likely nightkill).

This is why we have 2 balanced games out of 3 now.

The beginner games also need to focus on providing an environment for experienced players to be able to teach and show newer players how to become competent players. And when I say "experienced," I also mean "good." I don't think players like Lannan should be given the status of "ringer."

If more "good" people joined, then I would be happy to add them. I don't control who signs up, and good players have turned me down before. But, you are one to talk, FT--I've nearly ejected you from games from verbally harassing beginners to the point where they literally felt unable to play. That is not a "fun" environment. The point here is that experience, willingness to sign up, and overall attitude are all issues of concern, and I have to deal with those concerns, which are often more constraints than concerns.

There aren't a lot of players on DDO who meet this qualification, in large part because none of the newer players are competent enough to take their place (again, a failing of the beginner series).

I disagree. Sapphique is a testament to why you are wrong.

In theory, someone should be able to meet this qualification after playing through the beginner series a single time. Currently, that is not the case. Until it becomes the case, we need to place more emphasis on exposing newer players to competent players, not to players like Lannan.

Fine. I would love for you to work with me on getting more experienced ringers to play. I would appreciate your help.
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Maikuru
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2/6/2016 2:48:56 AM
Posted: 10 months ago
I don't know what's going on with the beginner series. The last time I looked at it a few months ago when I was thinking of signing up as a ringer, but I looked at the kind of play going on and it was unappealing. Maybe it's been changed since then.

I agree that play should focus on behaviors rather than roles. Players can learn about the roles through experience or on their own time. Obviously balancing should also be prioritized. Props to bsh for keeping it going; I'm glad it still exists.
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F-16_Fighting_Falcon
Posts: 18,324
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2/6/2016 2:50:13 AM
Posted: 10 months ago
At 2/6/2016 2:04:50 AM, Wylted wrote:
At 2/6/2016 1:59:31 AM, FourTrouble wrote:
At 2/6/2016 1:46:20 AM, Wylted wrote:
These threads keep appearing and I thinkbit's extremely disrespectful to BSH1. He does a lot of work on the beginner's series and any talks of revamping it should go through him personally in a PM.

I haven't seen any threads discussing the beginner series. So I'm not sure what you're talking about.

As for discussing it privately, no. This is an issue that affects the whole mafia community. It is not a personal issue between myself and bsh1. Talks of revamping the beginner series is need to be discussed openly, not in private by a few select individuals.

It has probably been about 18 months, but I saw another thread. I know it's not personal, but honestly he is the obly person willing to run it. It's a burden and no fun to run that thing, yet he continually does it. I figure if he is the only one that feels like modding non<x>stop mafia games, let him do whatever he feels like.

I see several improvements as well, but I'm sure as hell not willing to put the work into not only running them, but recruiting noobs into joining, so I don't want to armchair quarterback.

This is not about the mod. This is about what benefits the beginners and in turn what benefits the entire mafia community.
bsh1
Posts: 27,504
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2/6/2016 2:55:49 AM
Posted: 10 months ago
At 2/5/2016 10:37:25 PM, FourTrouble wrote:
Finally, the beginner series needs to make a few things clear from the start. The roles and alignments need to be randomized.

ROLE AND ALIGNMENTS ARE RANDOMIZED! I say this a bazillion times every single game. How can you possibly think otherwise?

And that should be made clear from the start. The rules about needing to include an "unvote" before every vote should be abolished. We don't need noobs focusing on following pointless rules; their focus needs to be on playing the game, and on absorbing the way competent players play. In general, all the pointless rules need to be removed from the beginner games (and from regular games, but that's another topic).

This is a rather petty complaint, and I doubt you'd find a single beginner who "focuses" on these rules. I have never seen a player obsess over or focus on the rules, and to suggest that they do is absurd on its face.

The problem is with the way the beginner series is currently being run.

Not really. As far as I can tell, most of your problems are with how the series was previously run.

It needs to change. If bsh1 refuses to change it, someone else will need to take his place modding the games. This is a necessary change to improve DDO's mafia community.

This is just idiotic, FT. I clearly am not refusing to change it. If you had paid any attention, you would have realized that this series--43.x--totally changed how the entire first game was set-up. It was a complete top-to-bottom transformation of the set-up. And, I added advisers to provide additional voices of experience for the noobs.

Now, this new set-up was on a trial run for this series--as I pointed out several times. Afterward, I would solicit feedback from those involved to improve it further. The main tweaks I was considering were working on better balancing game one, and giving the advisers a more active role to help supplement the ringers. As an aside, having the advisers should help mitigate the negative impacts of any less-than-stellar ringers.

These changes were arrived at, btw, through a discussion with Saph, Endark, and Harder. Saph and Harder have both co-modded the series with me many times, and so they have a solid grasp of the series and the challenges involved in it. Endark is a frequent player and someone deeply involved in community activities on the site.
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F-16_Fighting_Falcon
Posts: 18,324
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2/6/2016 2:58:21 AM
Posted: 10 months ago
How is this for an idea? We're running the 44 series right now. I'll volunteer and I'll mod 45 through 60 as a test program. Only one game will be in each signup series and it will use the Matrix 6 setup. 72 hours each DP. 24 hours each NP. Standard rules apply.

Once that's done, let's survey the general public and we'll see if this is worth it and what changes need to be made and what parts of the status quo need to be retained.