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Mafia and Blackmail

EndarkenedRationalist
Posts: 14,201
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2/7/2016 12:52:06 PM
Posted: 10 months ago
Recently a few users have decided to try and improve the Mafia community. Specifically their goal was to enhance the beginner's series.

In a PM, myself, bsh, Chris, and Saph hammered out a few tweaks and fixes for the beginner's series to be implemented in 43. We added in advisors to lessen the burdens faced by the moderator and to provide feedback to individual players after the game, so they could clearly see what they did well and what they could improve. We implemented a balanced matrix6 bracket which was to be modified to conform with the DDO standard of play. We increased the number of ringers to provide more of learning experience.

Before the 43 series had ended, before we could even have a hint at gauging how the changes worked, a tyrant arose to denounce everything about the beginner's series. Several of the changes we had already implemented were demanded, making this demand entirely pointless. Seeing that, this tyrant and his followers restored to a fanatical and Puritan stance, denying any all all compromise.

Bsh1 valiantly agreed to many of their ideas for reforming the beginner's series. He agreed to shorten the games to two instead of 3 - a wise choice, and one that could actually benefit the new players. He agreed to support a pool of qualified mods to rotate taking turns in modding the beginner's series. If the community values the illusion of democracy over experience and approachability, then that's fine. He also agreed to submit the final design of games to a panel for balance appraisal. And finally, he agreed to step down at game 46.

But the changes did not stop there. Some users continued their escalation, going as far as to outright bully and emotionally manipulate bsh. One user threatened to leave entirely unless bsh1 surrendered to his each and every demand. This is emotional manipulation. I would call it blackmail.

The will of the community has been shattered, trampled upon, by hardline activists determined to implement game-breaking policies. They are determined to enforce the standard of another site onto DDO. Not only that, they are determined to do it selectively. When it was pointed out to them that other roles on MS function differently than on DDO (like a godfather being immune at night or being the only mafioso capable of committing the NK), they ignored these because it did not fit their narrative.

These users are now in a position to cause massive amounts of harm to the beginner's Mafia community, purely to satisfy their own selfish ends.

Well, I'm quitting. Mafia on this site is truly dead.
XLAV
Posts: 13,710
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2/7/2016 1:31:14 PM
Posted: 10 months ago
At 2/7/2016 12:52:06 PM, EndarkenedRationalist wrote:
Recently a few users have decided to try and improve the Mafia community. Specifically their goal was to enhance the beginner's series.

In a PM, myself, bsh, Chris, and Saph hammered out a few tweaks and fixes for the beginner's series to be implemented in 43. We added in advisors to lessen the burdens faced by the moderator and to provide feedback to individual players after the game, so they could clearly see what they did well and what they could improve. We implemented a balanced matrix6 bracket which was to be modified to conform with the DDO standard of play. We increased the number of ringers to provide more of learning experience.

Before the 43 series had ended, before we could even have a hint at gauging how the changes worked, a tyrant arose to denounce everything about the beginner's series. Several of the changes we had already implemented were demanded, making this demand entirely pointless. Seeing that, this tyrant and his followers restored to a fanatical and Puritan stance, denying any all all compromise.

Lol, this whole thing sounds like something one would read in a fan fiction.

Bsh1 valiantly agreed to many of their ideas for reforming the beginner's series. He agreed to shorten the games to two instead of 3 - a wise choice, and one that could actually benefit the new players. He agreed to support a pool of qualified mods to rotate taking turns in modding the beginner's series. If the community values the illusion of democracy over experience and approachability, then that's fine. He also agreed to submit the final design of games to a panel for balance appraisal. And finally, he agreed to step down at game 46.

But the changes did not stop there. Some users continued their escalation, going as far as to outright bully and emotionally manipulate bsh. One user threatened to leave entirely unless bsh1 surrendered to his each and every demand. This is emotional manipulation. I would call it blackmail.
Nice nitpicking.
Yeah, don't mention that Bsh refused to remove the unvote rule which lead to why this 'tyrant' wanted him out.


The will of the community has been shattered, trampled upon, by hardline activists determined to implement game-breaking policies. They are determined to enforce the standard of another site onto DDO. Not only that, they are determined to do it selectively. When it was pointed out to them that other roles on MS function differently than on DDO (like a godfather being immune at night or being the only mafioso capable of committing the NK), they ignored these because it did not fit their narrative.
There are different variations of godfather. The godfather that investigates as innocent is the general and most used variation. If the mods want to use a different variation of the godfather, then use it in their own game. The role variation that should be used in the beginners series should be the variation that is the most commonly used. This makes it easier to understand for noobs and noobs can easily adapt with other variations once they've learned the basic and common variation.

These users are now in a position to cause massive amounts of harm to the beginner's Mafia community, purely to satisfy their own selfish ends.
Please.
I have not seen anyone say how these changes would harm the mafia community. You're just mad that Bsh is resigning because he want's to leave a mark on his games.

What these 'activists' want is to improve the mafia community. All of their demands are for the betterment of the mafia community, hardly selfish.

Well, I'm quitting. Mafia on this site is truly dead.
k
EndarkenedRationalist
Posts: 14,201
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2/7/2016 2:53:51 PM
Posted: 10 months ago
At 2/7/2016 1:31:14 PM, XLAV wrote:
At 2/7/2016 12:52:06 PM, EndarkenedRationalist wrote:
Recently a few users have decided to try and improve the Mafia community. Specifically their goal was to enhance the beginner's series.

In a PM, myself, bsh, Chris, and Saph hammered out a few tweaks and fixes for the beginner's series to be implemented in 43. We added in advisors to lessen the burdens faced by the moderator and to provide feedback to individual players after the game, so they could clearly see what they did well and what they could improve. We implemented a balanced matrix6 bracket which was to be modified to conform with the DDO standard of play. We increased the number of ringers to provide more of learning experience.

Before the 43 series had ended, before we could even have a hint at gauging how the changes worked, a tyrant arose to denounce everything about the beginner's series. Several of the changes we had already implemented were demanded, making this demand entirely pointless. Seeing that, this tyrant and his followers restored to a fanatical and Puritan stance, denying any all all compromise.

Lol, this whole thing sounds like something one would read in a fan fiction.

Bsh1 valiantly agreed to many of their ideas for reforming the beginner's series. He agreed to shorten the games to two instead of 3 - a wise choice, and one that could actually benefit the new players. He agreed to support a pool of qualified mods to rotate taking turns in modding the beginner's series. If the community values the illusion of democracy over experience and approachability, then that's fine. He also agreed to submit the final design of games to a panel for balance appraisal. And finally, he agreed to step down at game 46.

But the changes did not stop there. Some users continued their escalation, going as far as to outright bully and emotionally manipulate bsh. One user threatened to leave entirely unless bsh1 surrendered to his each and every demand. This is emotional manipulation. I would call it blackmail.
Nice nitpicking.
Yeah, don't mention that Bsh refused to remove the unvote rule which lead to why this 'tyrant' wanted him out.

Except bsh said he was willing to remove it if he could stay on until 46.


The will of the community has been shattered, trampled upon, by hardline activists determined to implement game-breaking policies. They are determined to enforce the standard of another site onto DDO. Not only that, they are determined to do it selectively. When it was pointed out to them that other roles on MS function differently than on DDO (like a godfather being immune at night or being the only mafioso capable of committing the NK), they ignored these because it did not fit their narrative.
There are different variations of godfather. The godfather that investigates as innocent is the general and most used variation. If the mods want to use a different variation of the godfather, then use it in their own game. The role variation that should be used in the beginners series should be the variation that is the most commonly used. This makes it easier to understand for noobs and noobs can easily adapt with other variations once they've learned the basic and common variation.

Same with roleblocker. And the one most commonly used does not prevent NKs. If MS is your standard, you have to account for what the rules say for GF too. And the rules there say that the traditional, standard GF is immune to NKs. That throws off balance too, but F-16 ignores that.

These users are now in a position to cause massive amounts of harm to the beginner's Mafia community, purely to satisfy their own selfish ends.
Please.
I have not seen anyone say how these changes would harm the mafia community. You're just mad that Bsh is resigning because he want's to leave a mark on his games.

The noobs will be taught the wrong uses of a role and this will massively confuse them when they play for real, where everyone uses the roleblocker properly.

What these 'activists' want is to improve the mafia community. All of their demands are for the betterment of the mafia community, hardly selfish.

Bsh's program and changes were better for the community. It is now worse off, not just because he's gone - as he was infinitely more approachable than FT or F-16 - but because they will now start teaching the wrong role.

Well, I'm quitting. Mafia on this site is truly dead.
k
XLAV
Posts: 13,710
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2/7/2016 4:31:05 PM
Posted: 10 months ago
At 2/7/2016 2:53:51 PM, EndarkenedRationalist wrote:
Nice nitpicking.
Yeah, don't mention that Bsh refused to remove the unvote rule which lead to why this 'tyrant' wanted him out.

Except bsh said he was willing to remove it if he could stay on until 46.
I don't remember him saying that. From what I remember, he said he wants to use the unvote rule until he retires at 46.

There are different variations of godfather. The godfather that investigates as innocent is the general and most used variation. If the mods want to use a different variation of the godfather, then use it in their own game. The role variation that should be used in the beginners series should be the variation that is the most commonly used. This makes it easier to understand for noobs and noobs can easily adapt with other variations once they've learned the basic and common variation.

Same with roleblocker. And the one most commonly used does not prevent NKs. If MS is your standard, you have to account for what the rules say for GF too. And the rules there say that the traditional, standard GF is immune to NKs. That throws off balance too, but F-16 ignores that.

Do you even mafiascum? Or even read the wiki?
http://wiki.mafiascum.net...
"A Godfather that returns an innocent result to Cops is considered Normal on mafiascum.net."

Please.
I have not seen anyone say how these changes would harm the mafia community. You're just mad that Bsh is resigning because he want's to leave a mark on his games.

The noobs will be taught the wrong uses of a role and this will massively confuse them when they play for real, where everyone uses the roleblocker properly.
You're like saying noobs are idiots. It's not that hard to process that roleblockers also block NKs. Besides, it won't confuse them if we teach them. We still have Drafter's role list or the mafiascum wiki that can be posted with the beginners series sign-ups for noobs to learn and noobs are free to ask questions.

Bsh's program and changes were better for the community. It is now worse off, not just because he's gone - as he was infinitely more approachable than FT or F-16 - but because they will now start teaching the wrong role.

The roleblocker we have now is the wrong role. The reason why it is the norm of DDO mafia is because people who misinterpreted the roleblocker are teaching noobs that roleblockers only block roles.
Wylted
Posts: 21,167
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2/7/2016 4:35:08 PM
Posted: 10 months ago
XLAV, This is just armchair quarterbacking from people who are unwilling themselves to do 25 beginner series in a row.

I'm not sure what mental disorder BSH1 has to put all that work into making the beginner's series run smoothly, but we should shut up and take advantage of it, instead of rocking the boat. It's probably some sort of disorder that demands everybody loves him.

What if you found a girl that had some sort of mental disorder where everytime she saw you she sucked your dick, and in combination of that they always worked tirelessly at recruiting supermodels to fvck you, you'd be a fool to armchair quarterback them. Well that's what is being done to BSH1.

We'll never find somebody with that mental disorder again. I hope somebody goes to your workplaces and armchair quarterbacks the shitt out of you guys for a week or you get one of those bosses that don't know what the hell they're doing and makes all kinds of obvious suggestions for what would make things better, and you have to humor him by trying to do shitt that has failed for every young manager who has came in their and attempted the same exact thing, they think they're so clever for trying
XLAV
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2/7/2016 4:41:29 PM
Posted: 10 months ago
At 2/7/2016 4:35:08 PM, Wylted wrote:
XLAV, This is just armchair quarterbacking from people who are unwilling themselves to do 25 beginner series in a row.

I'm not sure what mental disorder BSH1 has to put all that work into making the beginner's series run smoothly, but we should shut up and take advantage of it, instead of rocking the boat. It's probably some sort of disorder that demands everybody loves him.

What if you found a girl that had some sort of mental disorder where everytime she saw you she sucked your dick, and in combination of that they always worked tirelessly at recruiting supermodels to fvck you, you'd be a fool to armchair quarterback them. Well that's what is being done to BSH1.
Lol at all of that.

We'll never find somebody with that mental disorder again. I hope somebody goes to your workplaces and armchair quarterbacks the shitt out of you guys for a week or you get one of those bosses that don't know what the hell they're doing and makes all kinds of obvious suggestions for what would make things better, and you have to humor him by trying to do shitt that has failed for every young manager who has came in their and attempted the same exact thing, they think they're so clever for trying
I see your point, but we have other dik suckers like Saph, FT, and F16 or, even me, who I believe are willing to mod the beginners series. Besides, F16's suggestion is to rotate the mods, so nobody will be able to mod 2 series in a row unless you're the only one in the rotation.
XLAV
Posts: 13,710
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2/7/2016 4:45:55 PM
Posted: 10 months ago
At 2/7/2016 4:35:08 PM, Wylted wrote:
XLAV, This is just armchair quarterbacking from people who are unwilling themselves to do 25 beginner series in a row.

I'm not sure what mental disorder BSH1 has to put all that work into making the beginner's series run smoothly, but we should shut up and take advantage of it, instead of rocking the boat. It's probably some sort of disorder that demands everybody loves him.

What if you found a girl that had some sort of mental disorder where everytime she saw you she sucked your dick, and in combination of that they always worked tirelessly at recruiting supermodels to fvck you, you'd be a fool to armchair quarterback them. Well that's what is being done to BSH1.
Thing is, the chick is biting my d ick. So if I have to choose between a chick who bites my d ick or I just use my hand. I'd choose my hand.
Wylted
Posts: 21,167
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2/7/2016 4:48:42 PM
Posted: 10 months ago
At 2/7/2016 4:45:55 PM, XLAV wrote:
At 2/7/2016 4:35:08 PM, Wylted wrote:
XLAV, This is just armchair quarterbacking from people who are unwilling themselves to do 25 beginner series in a row.

I'm not sure what mental disorder BSH1 has to put all that work into making the beginner's series run smoothly, but we should shut up and take advantage of it, instead of rocking the boat. It's probably some sort of disorder that demands everybody loves him.

What if you found a girl that had some sort of mental disorder where everytime she saw you she sucked your dick, and in combination of that they always worked tirelessly at recruiting supermodels to fvck you, you'd be a fool to armchair quarterback them. Well that's what is being done to BSH1.
Thing is, the chick is biting my d ick. So if I have to choose between a chick who bites my d ick or I just use my hand. I'd choose my hand.

Don't lie, he does a good job at sucking your dick, you're just mad he isn't playing with your balls while doing it.
EndarkenedRationalist
Posts: 14,201
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2/7/2016 5:23:25 PM
Posted: 10 months ago
At 2/7/2016 4:31:05 PM, XLAV wrote:
At 2/7/2016 2:53:51 PM, EndarkenedRationalist wrote:
Nice nitpicking.
Yeah, don't mention that Bsh refused to remove the unvote rule which lead to why this 'tyrant' wanted him out.

Except bsh said he was willing to remove it if he could stay on until 46.
I don't remember him saying that. From what I remember, he said he wants to use the unvote rule until he retires at 46.

He did say that. Feel free to check.

There are different variations of godfather. The godfather that investigates as innocent is the general and most used variation. If the mods want to use a different variation of the godfather, then use it in their own game. The role variation that should be used in the beginners series should be the variation that is the most commonly used. This makes it easier to understand for noobs and noobs can easily adapt with other variations once they've learned the basic and common variation.

Same with roleblocker. And the one most commonly used does not prevent NKs. If MS is your standard, you have to account for what the rules say for GF too. And the rules there say that the traditional, standard GF is immune to NKs. That throws off balance too, but F-16 ignores that.

Do you even mafiascum? Or even read the wiki?
http://wiki.mafiascum.net...
"A Godfather that returns an innocent result to Cops is considered Normal on mafiascum.net."

Clearly you didn't read it. "In more traditional games, the godfather is the final arbiter in who the Mafia kills that night. Alternatively the godfather may be the only mafioso who can kill."

Please.
I have not seen anyone say how these changes would harm the mafia community. You're just mad that Bsh is resigning because he want's to leave a mark on his games.

The noobs will be taught the wrong uses of a role and this will massively confuse them when they play for real, where everyone uses the roleblocker properly.
You're like saying noobs are idiots. It's not that hard to process that roleblockers also block NKs. Besides, it won't confuse them if we teach them. We still have Drafter's role list or the mafiascum wiki that can be posted with the beginners series sign-ups for noobs to learn and noobs are free to ask questions.

Except roleblockers don't block NKs and MS rules don't apply and shouldn't apply here.

Bsh's program and changes were better for the community. It is now worse off, not just because he's gone - as he was infinitely more approachable than FT or F-16 - but because they will now start teaching the wrong role.

The roleblocker we have now is the wrong role. The reason why it is the norm of DDO mafia is because people who misinterpreted the roleblocker are teaching noobs that roleblockers only block roles.

The roleblocker we have now is the right role. Your statement is an opinion, as is mine. The difference is the majority backs my opinion.
EndarkenedRationalist
Posts: 14,201
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2/7/2016 5:27:38 PM
Posted: 10 months ago
FT, F-16, and even XLAV should not mod the beginner's series because none of them are approachable by noobs. They are condescending, patronizing, abrasive, and unyielding in their attitudes toward mafia politics. They (or at least FT) routinely trash talks all of the new players on the site. I am categorically opposed to letting someone like him ever mod a beginner's series.
XLAV
Posts: 13,710
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2/7/2016 5:54:59 PM
Posted: 10 months ago
At 2/7/2016 5:23:25 PM, EndarkenedRationalist wrote:
He did say that. Feel free to check.

At 2/7/2016 8:31:06 AM, bsh1 wrote:

If your willing to turn the unvote rule into massive site drama (and you may say it's not drama but it is) that is your call. NO MATTER WHAT, I will be gone by the end of 46.x. If you are literally incapable of putting up with 6 more games with the unvote rule.....
Seems like he was only willing to remove it once he's gone.


Do you even mafiascum? Or even read the wiki?
http://wiki.mafiascum.net...
"A Godfather that returns an innocent result to Cops is considered Normal on mafiascum.net."

Clearly you didn't read it. "In more traditional games, the godfather is the final arbiter in who the Mafia kills that night. Alternatively the godfather may be the only mafioso who can kill."
Do I really have to hold your hand for this?
Traditional=/=Commonly used
For the beginners series, we will follow the 'Normal Game" guidelines of MS.

The definition of Normal or Normal Game according to mafia scum is"This page describes what is considered to be "Normal" on mafiascum.net. These guidelines are intended to enforce common expectations of games, such that all games called "Normal" are reasonably balanced and not deviant from what one would reasonably expect in a standard game of Mafia."

The 'Normal' Godfather definition is "A Godfather that returns an innocent result to Cops is considered Normal on mafiascum.net. Godfathers are only immune to Cops and would return a "Godfather" result to a Role Cop and "not Vanilla" to a Vanilla Cop."
^ This variation is what mostly everyone uses nowadays.

The beginners series is not going to use any other variation but the normal variation.

You're like saying noobs are idiots. It's not that hard to process that roleblockers also block NKs. Besides, it won't confuse them if we teach them. We still have Drafter's role list or the mafiascum wiki that can be posted with the beginners series sign-ups for noobs to learn and noobs are free to ask questions.

Except roleblockers don't block NKs and MS rules don't apply and shouldn't apply here.
It should. MS is the most popular online forum mafia site in the internet, thus its wiki is the standard for online mafia. Mafia experts have studied theories, roles and sh*t and wrote them in the wikis for everyone who is interested in learning mafia online. Diverting from the standard and most commonly known definition of roleblocker is what is going to confuse players if DDO players migrate to Mafiascum or vice versa.


The roleblocker we have now is the wrong role. The reason why it is the norm of DDO mafia is because people who misinterpreted the roleblocker are teaching noobs that roleblockers only block roles.

The roleblocker we have now is the right role. Your statement is an opinion, as is mine. The difference is the majority backs my opinion.
No it is not. I don't even see the majority backing your opinion. All I see is you and Bsh. Also my statement is not an opinion. It is the fact. Roleblocker started as a role that blocks night actions, not just roles. Even drafter wrote this sh*t on his roles list.
XLAV
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2/7/2016 6:00:21 PM
Posted: 10 months ago
At 2/7/2016 4:48:42 PM, Wylted wrote:

Don't lie, he does a good job at sucking your dick, you're just mad he isn't playing with your balls while doing it.

Yeah, he could have done better
Wylted
Posts: 21,167
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2/7/2016 6:03:02 PM
Posted: 10 months ago
At 2/7/2016 6:00:21 PM, XLAV wrote:
At 2/7/2016 4:48:42 PM, Wylted wrote:

Don't lie, he does a good job at sucking your dick, you're just mad he isn't playing with your balls while doing it.

Yeah, he could have done better

See what I mean. Armchair quarterbacking is dumb here, we're better off with less perfect blowjobs if it means more blownobs and sex with super models
EndarkenedRationalist
Posts: 14,201
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2/7/2016 6:04:01 PM
Posted: 10 months ago
At 2/7/2016 5:54:59 PM, XLAV wrote:
At 2/7/2016 5:23:25 PM, EndarkenedRationalist wrote:
He did say that. Feel free to check.

At 2/7/2016 8:31:06 AM, bsh1 wrote:

If your willing to turn the unvote rule into massive site drama (and you may say it's not drama but it is) that is your call. NO MATTER WHAT, I will be gone by the end of 46.x. If you are literally incapable of putting up with 6 more games with the unvote rule.....
Seems like he was only willing to remove it once he's gone.

Post 413 ought to make it as clear as it can get. "I have agreed to remove the unvote rule if I can stay on until 46."


Do you even mafiascum? Or even read the wiki?
http://wiki.mafiascum.net...
"A Godfather that returns an innocent result to Cops is considered Normal on mafiascum.net."

Clearly you didn't read it. "In more traditional games, the godfather is the final arbiter in who the Mafia kills that night. Alternatively the godfather may be the only mafioso who can kill."
Do I really have to hold your hand for this?
Traditional=/=Commonly used
For the beginners series, we will follow the 'Normal Game" guidelines of MS.

Traditional = standard. It's BS that you get a claim a variation in this case and deny it in another.

The definition of Normal or Normal Game according to mafia scum is"This page describes what is considered to be "Normal" on mafiascum.net. These guidelines are intended to enforce common expectations of games, such that all games called "Normal" are reasonably balanced and not deviant from what one would reasonably expect in a standard game of Mafia."

The 'Normal' Godfather definition is "A Godfather that returns an innocent result to Cops is considered Normal on mafiascum.net. Godfathers are only immune to Cops and would return a "Godfather" result to a Role Cop and "not Vanilla" to a Vanilla Cop."
^ This variation is what mostly everyone uses nowadays.

The beginners series is not going to use any other variation but the normal variation.

So use the normal variation of the Roleblocker as it used on DDO.

You're like saying noobs are idiots. It's not that hard to process that roleblockers also block NKs. Besides, it won't confuse them if we teach them. We still have Drafter's role list or the mafiascum wiki that can be posted with the beginners series sign-ups for noobs to learn and noobs are free to ask questions.

Except roleblockers don't block NKs and MS rules don't apply and shouldn't apply here.
It should. MS is the most popular online forum mafia site in the internet, thus its wiki is the standard for online mafia. Mafia experts have studied theories, roles and sh*t and wrote them in the wikis for everyone who is interested in learning mafia online. Diverting from the standard and most commonly known definition of roleblocker is what is going to confuse players if DDO players migrate to Mafiascum or vice versa.

But DDO is not MS. DDO Mafia attracts a different audience than MS and vice versa. Treating the two sites identically is the biggest mistake you could possibly make. Deviating from the standard and most commonly known definition of what a roleblocker is here, on this site, will confuse everyone who plays on this site.


The roleblocker we have now is the wrong role. The reason why it is the norm of DDO mafia is because people who misinterpreted the roleblocker are teaching noobs that roleblockers only block roles.

The roleblocker we have now is the right role. Your statement is an opinion, as is mine. The difference is the majority backs my opinion.
No it is not. I don't even see the majority backing your opinion. All I see is you and Bsh. Also my statement is not an opinion. It is the fact. Roleblocker started as a role that blocks night actions, not just roles. Even drafter wrote this sh*t on his roles list.

And literally every single person who's ever put it in a game ever minus that one TUF did. And Drafter's list does not specify that.
XLAV
Posts: 13,710
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2/7/2016 6:04:18 PM
Posted: 10 months ago
At 2/7/2016 6:03:02 PM, Wylted wrote:
At 2/7/2016 6:00:21 PM, XLAV wrote:
At 2/7/2016 4:48:42 PM, Wylted wrote:

Don't lie, he does a good job at sucking your dick, you're just mad he isn't playing with your balls while doing it.

Yeah, he could have done better

See what I mean. Armchair quarterbacking is dumb here, we're better off with less perfect blowjobs if it means more blownobs and sex with super models

But my hands can do it better.
EndarkenedRationalist
Posts: 14,201
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2/7/2016 6:06:12 PM
Posted: 10 months ago
At 2/7/2016 4:35:08 PM, Wylted wrote:
XLAV, This is just armchair quarterbacking from people who are unwilling themselves to do 25 beginner series in a row.

Exactly what FT and F-16 are doing. Weird that you sympathize with XLAV though, since he's doing the same thing. Though I strongly suspect he's only doing it because FT said so.

I'm not sure what mental disorder BSH1 has to put all that work into making the beginner's series run smoothly, but we should shut up and take advantage of it, instead of rocking the boat. It's probably some sort of disorder that demands everybody loves him.

What if you found a girl that had some sort of mental disorder where everytime she saw you she sucked your dick, and in combination of that they always worked tirelessly at recruiting supermodels to fvck you, you'd be a fool to armchair quarterback them. Well that's what is being done to BSH1.

We'll never find somebody with that mental disorder again. I hope somebody goes to your workplaces and armchair quarterbacks the shitt out of you guys for a week or you get one of those bosses that don't know what the hell they're doing and makes all kinds of obvious suggestions for what would make things better, and you have to humor him by trying to do shitt that has failed for every young manager who has came in their and attempted the same exact thing, they think they're so clever for trying
XLAV
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2/7/2016 6:31:02 PM
Posted: 10 months ago
At 2/7/2016 6:04:01 PM, EndarkenedRationalist wrote:

Post 413 ought to make it as clear as it can get. "I have agreed to remove the unvote rule if I can stay on until 46."
Quote it, because I've read the whole post and I don't see it.


Traditional = standard. It's BS that you get a claim a variation in this case and deny it in another.
I've always been claiming the standard Normal variation.

It should. MS is the most popular online forum mafia site in the internet, thus its wiki is the standard for online mafia. Mafia experts have studied theories, roles and sh*t and wrote them in the wikis for everyone who is interested in learning mafia online. Diverting from the standard and most commonly known definition of roleblocker is what is going to confuse players if DDO players migrate to Mafiascum or vice versa.

But DDO is not MS. DDO Mafia attracts a different audience than MS and vice versa. Treating the two sites identically is the biggest mistake you could possibly make. Deviating from the standard and most commonly known definition of what a roleblocker is here, on this site, will confuse everyone who plays on this site.
It is not that hard to process. Noobs are not idiots. You are seriously implying that noobs are god damn idiots and can't comprehend new things like 'roleblockers can also block NKs!!'



The roleblocker we have now is the wrong role. The reason why it is the norm of DDO mafia is because people who misinterpreted the roleblocker are teaching noobs that roleblockers only block roles.

The roleblocker we have now is the right role. Your statement is an opinion, as is mine. The difference is the majority backs my opinion.
No it is not. I don't even see the majority backing your opinion. All I see is you and Bsh. Also my statement is not an opinion. It is the fact. Roleblocker started as a role that blocks night actions, not just roles. Even drafter wrote this sh*t on his roles list.

And literally every single person who's ever put it in a game ever minus that one TUF did. And Drafter's list does not specify that.
Older games did.

And Drafter's list did specify that. I'm not sure how to find it again, but I think saph did.
XLAV
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2/7/2016 6:34:57 PM
Posted: 10 months ago
At 2/7/2016 6:06:12 PM, EndarkenedRationalist wrote:
At 2/7/2016 4:35:08 PM, Wylted wrote:
XLAV, This is just armchair quarterbacking from people who are unwilling themselves to do 25 beginner series in a row.

Exactly what FT and F-16 are doing. Weird that you sympathize with XLAV though, since he's doing the same thing. Though I strongly suspect he's only doing it because FT said so.
And you're still stuck at this stupid outdated belief that I do what FT says. This remind me of your also stupid and outdated belief that I am only active as town.
EndarkenedRationalist
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2/7/2016 6:36:10 PM
Posted: 10 months ago
At 2/7/2016 6:31:02 PM, XLAV wrote:
At 2/7/2016 6:04:01 PM, EndarkenedRationalist wrote:

Post 413 ought to make it as clear as it can get. "I have agreed to remove the unvote rule if I can stay on until 46."
Quote it, because I've read the whole post and I don't see it.

I literally did quote it. It's in the list of compromises bsh1 said.


Traditional = standard. It's BS that you get a claim a variation in this case and deny it in another.
I've always been claiming the standard Normal variation.

That's oxymoronic.

It should. MS is the most popular online forum mafia site in the internet, thus its wiki is the standard for online mafia. Mafia experts have studied theories, roles and sh*t and wrote them in the wikis for everyone who is interested in learning mafia online. Diverting from the standard and most commonly known definition of roleblocker is what is going to confuse players if DDO players migrate to Mafiascum or vice versa.

But DDO is not MS. DDO Mafia attracts a different audience than MS and vice versa. Treating the two sites identically is the biggest mistake you could possibly make. Deviating from the standard and most commonly known definition of what a roleblocker is here, on this site, will confuse everyone who plays on this site.
It is not that hard to process. Noobs are not idiots. You are seriously implying that noobs are god damn idiots and can't comprehend new things like 'roleblockers can also block NKs!!

They'll be incredibly confused not only when they leave the safety pool of the beginner's game and see nobody else does that because everyone else uses the role properly on DDO, but also because when they start modding, they don't realize how absurdly OP that is. Impossible to balance.

The roleblocker we have now is the wrong role. The reason why it is the norm of DDO mafia is because people who misinterpreted the roleblocker are teaching noobs that roleblockers only block roles.

The roleblocker we have now is the right role. Your statement is an opinion, as is mine. The difference is the majority backs my opinion.
No it is not. I don't even see the majority backing your opinion. All I see is you and Bsh. Also my statement is not an opinion. It is the fact. Roleblocker started as a role that blocks night actions, not just roles. Even drafter wrote this sh*t on his roles list.

And literally every single person who's ever put it in a game ever minus that one TUF did. And Drafter's list does not specify that.
Older games did.

Yeah, 3 years ago. It changed. Deal with it.

And Drafter's list did specify that. I'm not sure how to find it again, but I think saph did.

Saph did quote it. Nothing in there said it stops NKs.
EndarkenedRationalist
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2/7/2016 6:37:02 PM
Posted: 10 months ago
At 2/7/2016 6:34:57 PM, XLAV wrote:
At 2/7/2016 6:06:12 PM, EndarkenedRationalist wrote:
At 2/7/2016 4:35:08 PM, Wylted wrote:
XLAV, This is just armchair quarterbacking from people who are unwilling themselves to do 25 beginner series in a row.

Exactly what FT and F-16 are doing. Weird that you sympathize with XLAV though, since he's doing the same thing. Though I strongly suspect he's only doing it because FT said so.
And you're still stuck at this stupid outdated belief that I do what FT says. This remind me of your also stupid and outdated belief that I am only active as town.

Show me one single instance where you disagreed with FT. And I don't mean on a read in-game. One single, serious instance.
BlazingRodent
Posts: 1,044
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2/7/2016 6:41:41 PM
Posted: 10 months ago
Well, I'm quitting. Mafia on this site is truly dead.

This sucks. So much drama on the site recently, with a bunch of things crumbling, and now mafia is going down the drain. :(
EndarkenedRationalist
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2/7/2016 6:46:05 PM
Posted: 10 months ago
At 2/7/2016 6:41:41 PM, BlazingRodent wrote:
Well, I'm quitting. Mafia on this site is truly dead.

This sucks. So much drama on the site recently, with a bunch of things crumbling, and now mafia is going down the drain. :(

Blame purists like F-16, FT, and XLAV, who refuse to accept that DDO is different from Mafia Scum and refuse to budge even a single inch when anyone disagrees with them. Their arrogance has always been toxic, but now it's even worse than ever.
The-Voice-of-Truth
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2/7/2016 6:47:02 PM
Posted: 10 months ago
At 2/7/2016 12:52:06 PM, EndarkenedRationalist wrote:
Recently a few users have decided to try and improve the Mafia community. Specifically their goal was to enhance the beginner's series.

In a PM, myself, bsh, Chris, and Saph hammered out a few tweaks and fixes for the beginner's series to be implemented in 43. We added in advisors to lessen the burdens faced by the moderator and to provide feedback to individual players after the game, so they could clearly see what they did well and what they could improve. We implemented a balanced matrix6 bracket which was to be modified to conform with the DDO standard of play. We increased the number of ringers to provide more of learning experience.

Before the 43 series had ended, before we could even have a hint at gauging how the changes worked, a tyrant arose to denounce everything about the beginner's series. Several of the changes we had already implemented were demanded, making this demand entirely pointless. Seeing that, this tyrant and his followers restored to a fanatical and Puritan stance, denying any all all compromise.

Bsh1 valiantly agreed to many of their ideas for reforming the beginner's series. He agreed to shorten the games to two instead of 3 - a wise choice, and one that could actually benefit the new players. He agreed to support a pool of qualified mods to rotate taking turns in modding the beginner's series. If the community values the illusion of democracy over experience and approachability, then that's fine. He also agreed to submit the final design of games to a panel for balance appraisal. And finally, he agreed to step down at game 46.

But the changes did not stop there. Some users continued their escalation, going as far as to outright bully and emotionally manipulate bsh. One user threatened to leave entirely unless bsh1 surrendered to his each and every demand. This is emotional manipulation. I would call it blackmail.

The will of the community has been shattered, trampled upon, by hardline activists determined to implement game-breaking policies. They are determined to enforce the standard of another site onto DDO. Not only that, they are determined to do it selectively. When it was pointed out to them that other roles on MS function differently than on DDO (like a godfather being immune at night or being the only mafioso capable of committing the NK), they ignored these because it did not fit their narrative.

These users are now in a position to cause massive amounts of harm to the beginner's Mafia community, purely to satisfy their own selfish ends.

Well, I'm quitting. Mafia on this site is truly dead.

Please don't do this. If you do, you are allowing another victory for the haters. And it was fun playing Mafia with you. Just don't join games with FT and f16 in them.
Suh dude

"Because we all know who the most important snowflake in the wasteland is... It's YOU, champ! You're a special snowflake." -Vaarka, 01:30 in the hangouts

"Screw laying siege to Korea. That usually takes an hour or so." -Vaarka

"Crap, what is my religion again?" -Vaarka

I'm Rick Harrison and this is my pawn shop. I work here with my old man and my son, Big Hoss, and in 23 years I've learned one thing. You never know what is gonna come through that door.
XLAV
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2/7/2016 6:49:04 PM
Posted: 10 months ago
At 2/7/2016 6:36:10 PM, EndarkenedRationalist wrote:


Traditional = standard. It's BS that you get a claim a variation in this case and deny it in another.
I've always been claiming the standard Normal variation.

That's oxymoronic.
I don't even understand what you're point is anymore


They'll be incredibly confused not only when they leave the safety pool of the beginner's game and see nobody else does that because everyone else uses the role properly on DDO, but also because when they start modding, they don't realize how absurdly OP that is. Impossible to balance.
Influencing the noobs, will influence the experienced players. Changing the roleblocker norm isn't only a noob thing, its the whole mafia community thing.

Older games did.

Yeah, 3 years ago. It changed. Deal with it.
I'm not going to deal something that is wrong from the start.


Saph did quote it. Nothing in there said it stops NKs.
It stop Night Actions. What the hell do you think an NK is?
EndarkenedRationalist
Posts: 14,201
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2/7/2016 6:50:05 PM
Posted: 10 months ago
At 2/7/2016 6:47:02 PM, The-Voice-of-Truth wrote:
At 2/7/2016 12:52:06 PM, EndarkenedRationalist wrote:
Recently a few users have decided to try and improve the Mafia community. Specifically their goal was to enhance the beginner's series.

In a PM, myself, bsh, Chris, and Saph hammered out a few tweaks and fixes for the beginner's series to be implemented in 43. We added in advisors to lessen the burdens faced by the moderator and to provide feedback to individual players after the game, so they could clearly see what they did well and what they could improve. We implemented a balanced matrix6 bracket which was to be modified to conform with the DDO standard of play. We increased the number of ringers to provide more of learning experience.

Before the 43 series had ended, before we could even have a hint at gauging how the changes worked, a tyrant arose to denounce everything about the beginner's series. Several of the changes we had already implemented were demanded, making this demand entirely pointless. Seeing that, this tyrant and his followers restored to a fanatical and Puritan stance, denying any all all compromise.

Bsh1 valiantly agreed to many of their ideas for reforming the beginner's series. He agreed to shorten the games to two instead of 3 - a wise choice, and one that could actually benefit the new players. He agreed to support a pool of qualified mods to rotate taking turns in modding the beginner's series. If the community values the illusion of democracy over experience and approachability, then that's fine. He also agreed to submit the final design of games to a panel for balance appraisal. And finally, he agreed to step down at game 46.

But the changes did not stop there. Some users continued their escalation, going as far as to outright bully and emotionally manipulate bsh. One user threatened to leave entirely unless bsh1 surrendered to his each and every demand. This is emotional manipulation. I would call it blackmail.

The will of the community has been shattered, trampled upon, by hardline activists determined to implement game-breaking policies. They are determined to enforce the standard of another site onto DDO. Not only that, they are determined to do it selectively. When it was pointed out to them that other roles on MS function differently than on DDO (like a godfather being immune at night or being the only mafioso capable of committing the NK), they ignored these because it did not fit their narrative.

These users are now in a position to cause massive amounts of harm to the beginner's Mafia community, purely to satisfy their own selfish ends.

Well, I'm quitting. Mafia on this site is truly dead.

Please don't do this. If you do, you are allowing another victory for the haters. And it was fun playing Mafia with you. Just don't join games with FT and f16 in them.

That's not enough to show them how wrong they are. They'll just keep doing this. As one of the few remaining experienced, skilled, and active players, I'm essentially boycotting because of the actions of F-16 and FT. It's not enough for me to not play with *them.* They need to drop this entire push and apologize to everyone, especially bsh.
XLAV
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2/7/2016 6:50:50 PM
Posted: 10 months ago
At 2/7/2016 6:37:02 PM, EndarkenedRationalist wrote:

Show me one single instance where you disagreed with FT. And I don't mean on a read in-game. One single, serious instance.

Before Preston stumbled upon mafia, I disagreed with FT's position of Pro policy lynching.
EndarkenedRationalist
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2/7/2016 6:52:08 PM
Posted: 10 months ago
At 2/7/2016 6:49:04 PM, XLAV wrote:
At 2/7/2016 6:36:10 PM, EndarkenedRationalist wrote:


Traditional = standard. It's BS that you get a claim a variation in this case and deny it in another.
I've always been claiming the standard Normal variation.

That's oxymoronic.
I don't even understand what you're point is anymore.

You think mistakenly, then.


They'll be incredibly confused not only when they leave the safety pool of the beginner's game and see nobody else does that because everyone else uses the role properly on DDO, but also because when they start modding, they don't realize how absurdly OP that is. Impossible to balance.
Influencing the noobs, will influence the experienced players. Changing the roleblocker norm isn't only a noob thing, its the whole mafia community thing.

And the entire community will suffer for it.

Older games did.

Yeah, 3 years ago. It changed. Deal with it.
I'm not going to deal something that is wrong from the start.

Except it isn't. It's right. Only you, FT, and F-16 think it's wrong. Maybe Drafter. Well guess what. No one cares. You four are old seashells who never play anymore. The game has evolved without you.


Saph did quote it. Nothing in there said it stops NKs.
It stop Night Actions. What the hell do you think an NK is?

Not a role, which is all a roleblocker can stop.
BlazingRodent
Posts: 1,044
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2/7/2016 6:52:14 PM
Posted: 10 months ago
At 2/7/2016 6:46:05 PM, EndarkenedRationalist wrote:
At 2/7/2016 6:41:41 PM, BlazingRodent wrote:
Well, I'm quitting. Mafia on this site is truly dead.

This sucks. So much drama on the site recently, with a bunch of things crumbling, and now mafia is going down the drain. :(

Blame purists like F-16, FT, and XLAV, who refuse to accept that DDO is different from Mafia Scum and refuse to budge even a single inch when anyone disagrees with them. Their arrogance has always been toxic, but now it's even worse than ever.

I knew they were trouble in some shape or form when I saw them.
The-Voice-of-Truth
Posts: 6,545
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2/7/2016 6:54:45 PM
Posted: 10 months ago
At 2/7/2016 6:50:05 PM, EndarkenedRationalist wrote:
That's not enough to show them how wrong they are. They'll just keep doing this. As one of the few remaining experienced, skilled, and active players, I'm essentially boycotting because of the actions of F-16 and FT. It's not enough for me to not play with *them.* They need to drop this entire push and apologize to everyone, especially bsh.

Well, for you, I guess it isn't... This honestly sucks. Couldn't this have gone about in a more civil manner?
Suh dude

"Because we all know who the most important snowflake in the wasteland is... It's YOU, champ! You're a special snowflake." -Vaarka, 01:30 in the hangouts

"Screw laying siege to Korea. That usually takes an hour or so." -Vaarka

"Crap, what is my religion again?" -Vaarka

I'm Rick Harrison and this is my pawn shop. I work here with my old man and my son, Big Hoss, and in 23 years I've learned one thing. You never know what is gonna come through that door.